Wedding forum (issues)

[sblais]

The wedding forum is at war. Our very own William Wallace just got decapitated while yelling "FREEDOM" (Thanks, Mel Gibson). Well, not exactly, but there is a bit of an uneasy feeling shared between regular members because of recent events (of the past few months).

While I cannot offer a solution to this issue, I would like to bring up a few points that have contributed to the situation:

- A thread was started about how rude people were in the wedding section (It wasn't worded like this, obviously, but this is the message that got across). This coming from someone we see very little on that forum. Very few regular members shared the feelings expressed by the OP of that thread and no real data was presented supporting those accusations. Obviously, we got a bit angry because of such accusations. If there were really rude people in the forum, why don't the moderators deal with them personally instead of putting everyone in the same boat?

- We are told on numerous occasions that the wedding forum has a bad reputation. I really can't see how stating this will change anything. If we indeed have a bad reputation, why don't moderators discuss this behind close doors and come up with a solution? There are many things going on behind those closed doors, so why leak to us that we are so bad? Again, it will only frustrate regular members that are very helpful and (most of the time) tactful, as we are once again put in the same boat as a few troublesome individuals. Many comments get deleted, which is fine, so why not delete comments kicking the wedding forum down?

- The Great POTN book issue is the latest addition to our frustrations. The intentions were very good, and I appreciated that. But as soon as someone mentioned having a separate section for the wedding forum (and let's be honest: it's not that crazy of an idea is it? - we don't shoot motorsport, we don't shoot glamor and nude, we shoot weddings.), that person hit a brick wall. NO. NO wedding section only in the book. That's where trouble began. Instead of considering the idea and trying to see if it could be possible to add a section and get wedding photographer involved in the realization of the album (hey, we do album design day in and day out!), people were closed minded about us, crazy wedding photographers. Again, more frustrations.

Like I mentioned earlier, I cannot offer any advice on how to solve this problem. But I do have a few propositions:

1) Why not have a wedding photographer as a moderator. Someone who will really enjoy taking an active part of that community (vs taking up a role). That person will make sure that no rudeness is tolerated.

2) Stop, please stop telling us how bad we ALL are. It's enough.

3) Talk to people who give us a bad name. Most of the time, I can bet that these people don't even spend 10 minutes a month in the wedding forum. How do they know what's going on in there? These people are definitively contributing to the problem, and in my opinion, even more than those who are a bit less tactful in their critique or comments.

Thanks for listening. I really liked this forum... Now I fear that a lot of my friends are moving on to somewhere else. :(

[sblais]

Oh, and by the way, I don't want this thread to become a bickering thread. Only constructive comments, please. I want to see open-mindedness from both sides!

[cosworth]

I posted a bit in the wedding forum before. As a contributing member who shoots weddings "as well" I got roasted a couple times from new or part time members about some things and I really just never found a reason to stay in there.

Sometimes it was rude, sometimes it was peopel misunderstanding the humour or the intent, other times it was people who really were new to forum speak and who just didn't know how to behave online or how to interpret other's behaviour.

Moderators stepped in I believe and made life a bit easier for me and a few others. The newbie posters who were not "getting it"? Haven't seen them around.

Bottom line, some wedding shooters aren't really wedding savvy. Some wedding shooters aren't really internet savvy. So when things go wedding or internet flavoured, they just might not get it.

Maybe we need to have the same limitations on the wedding forum as we have in the Glamour & Nude forum. Get people up to speed on the temperature of POTN in the wild areas before they get into the wedding forum.

Just my $0.02 which with the CDN dollar rising, has a little more pull these days!

[cdifoto]

I have nothing to add...I've been sticking around the...well no section in particular really. I seem to have bypassed the drama. Not that I mind. My wedding business took a dump anyway.

[Grace]

Just my $0.02 which with the CDN dollar rising, has a little more pull these days!

:lol:

witty retort hard at work...

[Grace]

I've been a member here a little over a year...This issue comes and goes.. I'm not really bothered by it.

[neil_r]

I am just amazed that people take themselves so seriously, I am even more amazed that people chan take something as transient as a web forum even more seriously. This place has been around a lot longer than most of the people who are getting their knickers in a twist over this latest "incident" have been on board and I would guess that it will be around a lot longer after they have gone.

Storm in a teacup, of no consiquence in the bigger scheme of things, so as mothers around the world would say "Play nice and try to get along"

[sblais]

I am just amazed that people take themselves so seriously, I am even more amazed that people chan take something as transient as a web forum even more seriously. This place has been around a lot longer than most of the people who are getting their knickers in a twist over this latest "incident" have been on board and I would guess that it will be around a lot longer after they have gone.

Storm in a teacup, of no consiquence in the bigger scheme of things, so as mothers around the world would say "Play nice and try to get along"

Some of us do care. We have real friends online. Many of us just came back from a wedding forum meet, and we had a blast. We just hate when something bad happens to one of our friends.

So, with your logic in mind, we shouldn't care about the Earth, the environment, as it's been around for a lot longer than we have and it will be there for a lot longer after we have gone? In the grand scheme of things, are we that insignificant?

But thanks for stopping by! (and making me feel insignificant at the same time! :rolleyes:). But I prefer to think that I can make a difference, as small as it may be in the grand scheme of things.

[Grace]

Some of us do care. We have real friends online. Many of us just came back from a wedding forum meet, and we had a blast. We just hate when something bad happens to one of our friends.

So, with your logic in mind, we shouldn't care about the Earth, the environment, as it's been around for a lot longer than we have and it will be there for a lot longer after we have gone? In the grand scheme of things, are we that insignificant?

But thanks for stopping by! (and making me feel insignificant at the same time! :rolleyes:). But I prefer to think that I can make a difference, as small as it may be in the grand scheme of things.


You do make a difference Sebastien!

I've just learned the lesson the hard way and I stay out of everything that may have more to the story than meets the eye.... hence my siggy ;)

[neil_r]

Trust me it was a pleasure, ;-) your interpretation of my logic is flawed, but then again I am not surprised. Have a nice life and I trust that you never have to deal with any "real" issues.

[JimAskew]

Through it all I still like the Wedding Forum the best. Not only have I learned much about the art & craft of wedding photography in the Wedding Forum; but, also photography in general. It can be a tough place at times...I have posted my photos all over POTN and it is the only place where some have been referred to as "snapshots" ;) I have come to take that sort of feedback with a grain of salt as there has been great and positive feedback as well.

Let's hope this latest issue passes soon and folks get back to doing what they do best in the Wedding Forum...teaching by example.

My $0.02 worth and as someone noted earlier...it is now worth 1/2 penny and falling fast :(

[sblais]

Trust me it was a pleasure, ;-) your interpretation of my logic is flawed, but then again I am not surprised. Have a nice life and I trust that you never have to deal with any "real" issues.

So you are judging me and insulting me publicly, without even knowing me. Thanks for revealing that side of your character.

And if you would be so generous to explain your logic my lowly person, I would appreciate to know your real intention of your post and would withdraw my comment without hesitation (so as to not embarrass myself further)

[cosworth]

Here is a prime eaxmple. Everyone put their lesson to be learned caps on.

1. Neil is saying to sblais that his interpretation of what he said is not correct. He is not surprised because it happens often online. sblais sees it as an attack against him, I don't.

2. Neil is saying that sblais never has to deal with any real issues that may arise here. There are sometimes angry wives of philanderous husbands hijacking accounts asking mods for deleted PMs, there are police asking for information, people flaming each other incessantly etc. He's also alluding to the world being a bigger place than a little internet forum. sblais is taking this as a personal swipe and shouldn't. It's the internet, text has no inflection. Neil is saying "suck it up princess" perhaps - but really, this kind of banter is where things go south.

I'm guilty of it, everyone is guilty of it at some point. But stop the snowballing and go have a cup of tea on a sunny Saturday morning, think about your weekend and put PTON where it should be.

[neil_r]

You pretty much got it taped there Cosworth, the only thing I object to in your post is the fact that it is sunny where you are, we have had a day of rain :-(

[kona77]

Here is a prime eaxmple. Everyone put their lesson to be learned caps on.

"suck it up princess"

Good post but that part made milk come out my nose. You owe me one keyboard.


Why do people just love getting into pissing matches on the net. This is a forum of many talented, mostly professional, people who can share the world with photos.

Post, critique, share business ideas, etc. But cut the friggen BS and help each other out.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Oh, and by the way, I don't want this thread to become a bickering thread. Only constructive comments, please. I want to see open-mindedness from both sides!

No no, it's not bickering or inflammatory with a declaration of WAR in the title.

The biggest travesties in this whole exchange are twofold.

The very route of the initial complaint was a self created, self restricted, self imposed demand for special treatment above all others in the forum.

Some members of of the WF see asking for there own separate section in the POTN book as a demand for equality.
It is not.
It is a demand for special treatment above and beyond all other members.
The Book was layed out to treat all existing members of the forum equally.

No one else has had a separate section created beyond the forums existing shares to meet there specific shooting subject or style.
The Pano people are satisfied with existing shares, the IR people, the B&W people, the various aspect of N&A can be happy to post alongside each other whether it be photos of wild leopards, zoo animals, flowers, fish, or pet cats.
Baby pictures snap shots are submitted happily alongside serious time consuming studio shots in "People" and grunge rock bands alongside Ballet in "Performing arts". Water drops cohabitate happily along side the inner machinations of a spiders jaws in Macro.

The second travesty was the method of the communication.
The Book project people have done nothing more than to sacrifice untold hours of there lives as a service to all the members of POTN for the last two years. Because one member felt unreasonably left out of the process, a process he chose not to take any part in for the last two years, the book committee was publicly attacked on this forum.

William Wallace indeed. If the decision is to rally around this misguided, misdirected attempt to get the Wedding Forum represented in a different manner both in the Book project and in the forum, they are are enlisting in a lost cause.
Martyr him all you want, you are hitching your wagon to the wrong representative.
You were POORLY represented in this case.
A diplomatic approach to either the Book committee for issues around the book, or the Mods for your other issues would be warmly welcomed and all due time and effort would be applied to try and solve these issue.
But continuously coming back attack after attack with public floggings rather than excepting an invitation to work with others will serve you no purpose. By rallying around the wrong leader, you will doom your cause. We have seen this before in the WF with the first Albany Meet's rocky start. Chose your Representatives more wisely. Circling your wagons around the wrong person acting for the wrong reasons is similar to electing a radical fundamentalist to high office and then expecting the world to be happy to negotiate with you.
It does not further your cause.

It's already been suggested half a dozen times how to go about eliciting positive change on both the above subjects here, but this is falling on deaf ears as we now embark on this sideshow involving one malcontent. This tangent is a distraction for any possible progress that could be made. It HURTS your cause.

I spent the better of the day yesterday exchanging messages with banbert trying to solve this issue. It was to no avail, Every reply was venom infused and served only to show his lack of interest in any form of compromise.
Again, it was his request that if he would not be allowed to do as he felt rather than to work within the confines of the Forums rules, that his account be removed. This is how inflexible he was.

Comparatively, as some of you know, some members of the book committee indeed did not handle this initial attack on them very well. In hind site, I have to say, given the effort and self sacrifice they have put into this project, I can hardly blame them. This was not however how i saw it when I first found the thread in question.
I share this with you as it ties in directly to the nature of the individual whom you are supporting.
As some may know, I cut a swath through that thread deleting numerous inappropriate posts. Many were overly strongly worded replies from the Book committee, but there was plenty from WF members as well that needed deletion.
The next step was S.O.P. for a forum Mod. Contact the individuals that had transgressed, remind them of the forums rules, inform them that such behavior must cease, and if any further contact is initiated in the public forum, it should come from a position of compromise.
I try to be as even handed in approaching two side on matters such as these as possible, but the truth is, banbert was treated with kid gloves. He got the preferential treatment.
With ONE exception, all of the members I contacted were willing to agree, regretted there transgressions, and put a stop to the fighting. Jamie Hollady posted his reply which was an olive branch the like of which this forum has never seen.
banbert's response was to blast back at the Mod that had approached him via PM, to blast back on the public forum, to create a competing book thread to show the rest of us, and infuse that project with the same rhetoric to use it to push further at the current book project rather than to do so pro actively and organically for the wedding books own value. He refused to see any wrong doing, and refused to compromise at all in his one sided view. He further pushed his agenda on the public forum by demanding publicly special treatment for other mundane rules, even while I was trying to negotiate a solution with him via PM on the larger issues..

If this is who you chose to represent you on these subject, if this is who you chose to rally around and declare war for, then your cause is lost right now.

[cdifoto]

All that over a book? That's nuts.

[eslaydog]

This is lame. Can't you guys argue (um, err, work this out) in a PM or something?

[sblais]

No no, it's not bickering or inflammatory with a declaration of WAR in the title.

Woah! Please wait a minute there! It's not meant as a calls for arms, but rather a prevention of a possible "war". I hope you can get that feeling by reading the actual post rather than stopping at the title. I like sensationalist comparisons, I'm guilty of that. That title was one of them.

I guess the title should read - Wedding forum at war - How to prevent this from happening - an essay by Sebastien. But that's a bit long and not enough catchy for me. But the actual post does talk about PREVENTION and EASING TENSIONS about the wedding forum, IN GENERAL.

Also, your comment was almost entirely focused on the events from one or two days ago. In my original post, I'm actually discussing about the reputation of the wedding forum. The issue is not the book. It is one specific small pointless event, that because of previous frustrations, got to extraordinary proportions. I wanted to propose a few changes to avoid this from repeating in the future.

But, please, I hope you can find the real meaning of my post by re-reading it again, in light of what I just said. I want discussion, not an uprising. Cosworth has a valid point of misinterpreting people's intentions online; it happens more often than we think.




BACK ON TOPIC:

HOW CAN WE STOP THIS ISOLATION AND REPUTATION ISSUE THAT PLAGUES THE WEDDING FORUM? INQUIRING MIND WOULD LIKE TO HEAR YOUR SUGGESTIONS.

[cosworth]

Why don't the wedding shooters get together and make their own book outside of POTN? That would solve a lot of the acrimony.

"If you don't like the scene, make your own" - Kenny Chow

[sblais]

Why don't the wedding shooters get together and make their own book outside of POTN? That would solve a lot of the acrimony.

"If you don't like the scene, make your own" - Kenny Chow

I would please ask that we stay on topic as stated in my previous post. The album is not the topic.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Just FYI to your reply,
I did not stop at the title, I read the whole post several times.

I refer to much of what you said in that post in my reply.

Again, my reply addresses both the book issue and the larger issues you speak of, and also because of the mentions in your post, which I quote here and there, I bring up the issue of the recently absent member that you in your post have bolstered as the champion of your cause, as well as the Book issue that elevated him to martyrdom.
These are topics which you chose to bring to this discussion. So it should not be surprising that a well thought out response would address these topics.

O-kay,. so enough of all that. You ask in your follow up;
HOW CAN WE STOP THIS ISOLATION AND REPUTATION ISSUE THAT PLAGUES THE WEDDING FORUM? INQUIRING MIND WOULD LIKE TO HEAR YOUR SUGGESTIONS.

To me the answer is simple, but perhaps I am mistaken.
The book situation and this thread are prime examples of the very issues you claim to seek to repair.
The isolation is 100% self imposed. Yes it gets reinforced as a response to the secularism of the WF as a whole by others, but this is no mysterious chicken and egg situation here, and again the Book debacle is a perfect shining example of how and who began the isolation.

Over two years ago the book project was started. since that time at the top of every forum including WF there have been numerous update announcements, asking for volunteers, asking for submitions, asking finally for votes.
Last year the participation in the Book from the WF was a very good reflection of the WF self imposed isolation on the rest of the forum. No volunteers, very few submitions and low voter representation.

Back to the bigger picture and forget the microcosm of the Book for a moment,

Again, The Isolation is self imposed.
When a thread is posted about what lens to use, it goes into the EF lens forum, Not so for the WF people. Somehow your needs are so specific that only your own clique can answer. WF members have by insisting on this sort of special treatemnt repeatedly and daily isolated themselves from the rest of the forum.
The people that know the most about what lens is best may very well be in the EF forum waiting to offer there help. By insisting that only other WF shooters could know what you need, you have Isolated that expert in the EF forum.
When the thread gets moved to the forum that was created for lens discussions, often there is a dust up between that member and the Mods as in the mind of that member there opinion on where a thread belongs overrides all other opinions and or rules of the forum... and thus the WF member isolated themselves from the Moderators who are trying to do the same task they do all over the forum with little to no resistance from others, but then have to endure very public insult and response for doing there jobs as the forum rules guide them to.
...and so on for camera bodies, flash etc. and even auto insurance.

Many WF posters seem to want to play in one sandbox alone, they want the forums rules and guidelines to exclude WF posts. In so doing these members have forced the WF as a whole to isolate itself from participating in all of the other forums activities. Obviously we are talking about a percentage of WF posters, not all, but the trend starts within the WF forum.

It was this same total self imposed isolation that had one member totally unaware of the two year process that went into getting the Book where it is now, totally oblivious to the forum wide announcements at the top of every forum in POTN, oblivious to the updates, requests and announcements that appear at the top of the very wedding forum itself.

It was this self imposed isolation that caused the member to lash out at others to get his way and his world view imposed on a process after the fact, rather than to work to to be included.

There is one solution in my mind to the problem you pose, and that is to participate in POTN and stop with the isolationist attitude. Use constructive means to participate not destructive ones.
Mods can't make this happen for you, anymore than the Book committee and fix the fact that certain members do not wish to participate in the book project unless there own special demands are met to there satisfaction. Life does not work this way.

Both groups however are here and on record with hands extended to help once the right steps are taken by those that wish to make a change.

At the risk of making another political analogy,
You will not better yourselves by attacking or creating conflict and discord.
Destruction does not breed improvement.
Build yourself up. Get involved, participate, help out.

[Maureen Souza]

BACK ON TOPIC:

HOW CAN WE STOP THIS ISOLATION AND REPUTATION ISSUE THAT PLAGUES THE WEDDING FORUM? INQUIRING MIND WOULD LIKE TO HEAR YOUR SUGGESTIONS.

Someone, maybe you, complained that a Mod (me) initiated a behavior change thread a while back and that I wasn't even in the WF very much.
Well, I used to post frequently in the WF but stepped out of posting because I didn't like the general manners of the place.
However, I still frequent the WF everyday...check out new posts, read the general chat and keep up with what is being said and done in there. Just because I am not posting much doesn't mean I am not paying attention.

My general feeling is that wedding photogs feel their work is more important than anyone else's...partly because weddings are very special occasions and partly because they get paid well for their work. Since I shoot several weddings a year, I know they are a very big deal but they are not as important to me as photographing my little grandson and my family's events.

Birders or travelers, for example, may only shoot for their own fun and interests. But in their minds, their photos are every bit as important to them as the wedding photog's photos are to them. People who shoot snaps just for family memories, well that is equally as important to them.

We need to not be so critical of each other here and be more respectful. Everyone here picks up their camera for their own purpose and they should all be treated respectfully.
Everyone has their own style and that is something that is fun to share and fun to learn from. Let's not make every nit-picky detail so darn important.

Maybe some of you should step out into some of the other forums and enjoy the photos there (and I know a few of you do).
I try to get into several forums a day and enjoy the landscapes, the animals, the people, the weddings and even a few sports here & there.

I really don't like that the WF has earned a bad rep here....I really hope we can all learn from this and that we can particiapte better with each other. This is a great little community and I hate to see one forum feeling picked on.

I hope we can all try to mend fences and move forward.

[puddlepirate44]

BACK ON TOPIC:

HOW CAN WE STOP THIS ISOLATION AND REPUTATION ISSUE THAT PLAGUES THE WEDDING FORUM? INQUIRING MIND WOULD LIKE TO HEAR YOUR SUGGESTIONS.

OK, as a non-Mod, I'll bite.

Allow me to set the stage: From where I sit, I see the Wedding Photography business as an intricate and wonderful profession. One I hope, someday, to become involved. I also see the Wedding Photography business to be highly competitive, stressful, time consuming and volatile. For those that are currently engaged in the venue as a full time career, my hat's off to you. There is a relatively small group of Wedding Photographers that are successful.

I have "lurked" the halls of the Wedding Forum for many months, enjoying the shots and trying to soak in the information as it is parsed out. I've posted very infrequently as I sense the Wedding Forum to be somewhat rarified air. It is from these travels into your arena that I come to the following opinions and suggestions.

I've seen where someone would post a shot from a wedding and they would be torn apart.... bad use of flash, bad composition, bad angle, etc. True, perhaps the shot was an example of poor flash or bad comp., but the resulting posts from a select few of the Wedding Forum regulars were harsh. An aspect that I've seen time and time again is where extreme rudeness and blatant derogatory comments were given while hiding behind a shield of "Honest Critique", or "It's a tough business...." and so on. The upshot of this is that very few people who wish to have some help with their photography will not do so simply because they do not want to get "blasted". Almost everyone that I've met that is not a regular contributor to the Wedding Forum will not start a thread here because of the acidic nature of some of the posters here. This, obviously, will not help in furthering a warm reputation. Many have no problem with posting shots of theirs in the Transportation forum, or Macro, or Bird, etc, but mention the Wedding Forum and they will not do so.

A solution to this would be simple. Be nice. Granted, 95% of the frequent flyers here are very kind and helpful, but the 5% are incurring a very dark history for the rest. I'm not saying that all posts must be cheery and false, or politically correct, just kind. If a shot is bad flash, assist, don't demean. One can still be truthful and constructive without bashing the poster or the post. One further step would be to give those that seem bent on being rude a swift kick to the curb. Insist that people be civil to one another, regardless of who they are, and, if necessary, report those that will not "play nice."

Another problem would be not be frustrated when someone asks, "I've got my first wedding in one hour and I've got my G6, a Rebel XT and the 18-55. Will this be good enough?" Questions like that will always happen. I've seem many, many people help the "newbie" in situations like this, and, again, I've seen the select few explode with vitriol. Like posting photos, most outside of the Wedding Forum will seek advice elsewhere rather than where the information is most likely stored. As a side note, brusquely telling someone to "Read the FAQ's" isn't helpful. Showing them where the FAQ's are located, and helping them find the specific question/answer would be helpful.

Again, I realize that the Wedding Photography business is stressful, and many of you come to these threads to vent. That's OK to a point. I do the same in my forum sphere. But if my bad mood crosses the line to where my reactions cause harm to another member, then it ceases to be acceptable. There are times when I've seen uncalled for reactions from members simply because they had a bad day. Some of that should be taken to PM instead of public interaction.

Thirdly, the Wedding Forum has been seen as an insular section of POTN, wherein "What happens in the Wedding Forum, stays in the Wedding Forum." To many, the Wedding Forum has the appearance of a closed nation where there is no line of communication. The obvious answer to that would be involvement with other POTN activities. Not to belabor the point, but the POTN Book is a prime example. There are three wedding photos submitted thus far. As far as I can tell, only one is from a regular WF member. Personally, I would love to see the Book inundated with wedding shots and pics from your various Engagement Sessions. This would take some of the mystique out of the WF, and put a face onto your art.

Much of the above will require someone to step up to the plate and take the lead. This is not something that can be legislated from Pekka or the moderators as this will only chafe. These kinds of changes must be done by someone already known and respected in the WF who is willing to take a leading role of squashing those that continue to be rude and offensive, but not squashing the level of professionalism.

These are but simple observations. I meant no offense with the words chosen, but to see an ugly rift closed.

[Pete]

A one word summary to both Jake & Mo's posts (as glorious works of textual art as they are).

Community.

[Lord_Malone]

Wedding forum people tastes like chicken.

[Pete]

Much of the above will require someone to step up to the plate and take the lead. This is not something that can be legislated from Pekka or the moderators as this will only chafe. These kinds of changes must be done by someone already known and respected in the WF who is willing to take a leading role of squashing those that continue to be rude and offensive, but not squashing the level of professionalism.

Sounds to me as though you're advocating a Wedding Moderator.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Thanks Pete, eloquent in your single word.

It reminds me of my favorite T.H. White semi political quote I have worn as a sig on occasion in times of need.

From The Once and Future King.


"... I can not abide these nationalists! ... the destiny of mankind is to unite,. not to divide.
If we keep on dividing,. we end up as a bunch of monkeys, sitting each in our own individual tree throwing nuts at each other... "
Merlin

[condyk]

...This issue comes and goes.. I'm not really bothered by it.

Storm in a teacup, of no consiquence in the bigger scheme of things, so as mothers around the world would say "Play nice and try to get along"

What they said ... and I see Jim Carey as the lead with Adam Sandler as his even more dorky ass-istant photographer.

To many, the Wedding Forum has the appearance of a closed nation where there is no line of communication. The obvious answer to that would be involvement with other POTN activities.

:lol::lol:

The biggest transvestites in this whole exchange are twofold.


Eh? ;)

[CyberDyneSystems]

Did I really type that! Oh my .. what was I thinking :lol:
I can always count on my friends to back me up by highlighting my most eloquent choices of wording... :lol:

**EDIT** You liar! You had me convinced too!




FYI thread title renamed at OP's request.

[puddlepirate44]

Sounds to me as though you're advocating a Wedding Moderator.

Not necessarily. I'm of the opinion that a Mod specifically for the WF is not needed. I was merely hoping to see the frequent members of the WF police themselves, to take a step back and honestly ask if the interaction in which they engage is something that would be tolerated in a normal, mano a mano conversation. There tends to be a degree of separation when dealing with people online; one that really isn't there.

[Karl C]

Wedding forum people tastes like chicken.

You owe me a new monitor and keyboard...

:lol:

[JimAskew]

Wedding forum people tastes like chicken.

It's the sauce that does it :)

[sblais]

Just FYI to your reply,
I did not stop at the title, I read the whole post several times.

After reading it myself, I agree that I wasn't exactly clear on my intentions in that first post and I apologize for that. I hope that my other posts clarified my intentions.

champion of your cause, as well as the Book issue that elevated him to martyrdom.
These are topics which you chose to bring to this discussion. So it should not be surprising that a well thought out response would address these topics.

A bad attempt at humor (very bad?)... Ask my friends, I'm good at that, which has been noted in my title :p Just like when I humorously asked you not to ban me in PM... That's just me.

About the issue that I initially wanted to discuss (albeit my bad attempt at doing so), you mention several times that the isolation is 100% self imposed. I agree entirely, but since this is indeed a problem (from what I hear), why not do something to facilitate an openness to the WF. This is what I'm trying to get people to think about. Instead of hoping that a problem will go away on its own, I would prefer to take a proactive approach.



the microcosm of the Book

Please bear with me a moment. If there would be a wedding section in the POTN book... please bear with me.... I can almost guarantee that there would be a large participation in this book from WF members.

NOW: I realize that the WF is not a "share you pics" forum, we are thus arrogant from atop of our pedestal for asking such a section, bla bla bla. My question is this: Why is it not so? Why is it that the WF is in the sharing knowledge section? Probably half of the threads in that forum are sharing some wedding/engagement pics. The rest could belong to the "Business of photography", the lens section, like you mentioned, etc...

I'm not sure what is the reason behind putting the WF as a "Share Knowledge" forum, but I personally believe that it's not helping with our current issue. This forum is an all-in-a-box. No wonder we isolate ourselves! We really don't need to go anywhere else! I'd appreciate some insight on that, if you are free to discuss such matters. But no matter what, I wanted to raise this point, even if I know that this won't change anytime soon.

But because of this, yes, the isolation is self-imposed, but I hope that we can agree that the current situation does, in a certain extent, favor this isolation.


Again, The Isolation is self imposed.
When a thread is posted about what lens to use, it goes into the EF lens forum, Not so for the WF people. Somehow your needs are so specific that only your own clique can answer. WF members have by insisting on this sort of special treatemnt repeatedly and daily isolated themselves from the rest of the forum.
The people that know the most about what lens is best may very well be in the EF forum waiting to offer there help. By insisting that only other WF shooters could know what you need, you have Isolated that expert in the EF forum.

I agree with your point of view. The grass is always greener on the other side, but I'd prefer having a "share your pics" wedding section and have the other subjects categorized in the appropriate "sharing knowledge" sections. It reduces the isolation and puts a lot more "order" in the forum in general.


there own special demands are met to there satisfaction. Life does not work this way.

I find this sarcastic (I do see sarcasm with the first part) comment a bit harsh towards WF members. Are WF members so arrogant and isolated if they think that their photography is a different category when compared to birding, arts, glamour and nude, etc? While it is true that I am biased, I cannot help but seeing it this way. I'm not trying to be arrogant, and I'm trying to be open-minded, but I do see wedding photography as a different category than any of those listed in the "sharing pics" forums.

I'm not trying to get to the argument of the book again. If you want to keep it this way, I don't have a problem with that. I'm just saying that I would have a hard time finding a category to which submit my wedding pictures, and because of that, not because I want to isolate myself, but I would probably not think about submitting pics there. I would not be mad or frustrated about it, I just would not feel concerned by the book. A bit like if bird photographers announced that they made their own book... I'm not going to look through all of my files in case I might have one where there is a bird that flew into my shot behind the bride and groom. It just won't concern me unless I'm into birding.

Build yourself up. Get involved, participate, help out.

I'm trying to participate and make a (small) difference. Hence this thread (albeit a wrong initial turn by my fault :p)

[Cadwell]

NOW: I realize that the WF is not a "share you pics" forum, we are thus arrogant from atop of our pedestal for asking such a section, bla bla bla. My question is this: Why is it not so? Why is it that the WF is in the sharing knowledge section? Probably half of the threads in that forum are sharing some wedding/engagement pics. The rest could belong to the "Business of photography", the lens section, like you mentioned, etc...

I'm not sure what is the reason behind putting the WF as a "Share Knowledge" forum,

The short answer is "because you (the wedding photographers) asked for it be like that".

The long answer is that the "wedding section" was originally created as a sub-category of "The Business of Photography" (then called "Cornering the Pros") in response to requests from wedding photographers to have their own place to discuss wedding related professional photography issues. During a forum reorganisation it was decided that we weren't fond of deeply nested sub-categories so it was moved up a level but kept in the same general category.

[the_incubus]

Thanks Pete, eloquent in your single word.

It reminds me of my favorite T.H. White semi political quote I have worn as a sig on occasion in times of need.

From The Once and Future King.


"... I can not abide these nationalists! ... the destiny of mankind is to unite,. not to divide.
If we keep on dividing,. we end up as a bunch of monkeys, sitting each in our own individual tree throwing nuts at each other... "
Merlin

Just finished reading that this afternoon, it was amazing. The Sword in the Stone was by far the best one out of the four.

[Maureen Souza]

You know, I just want to mention one more thing. For a long time, all wedding photography was part of the People forum. It's only been in the last 20 months or so that there has been a separate forum for weddings, done at the wedding photog's request.
Now I am not so sure that was a good idea. Everyone got along much better when it was a part of People.

[tofuboy]

About the issue that I initially wanted to discuss (albeit my bad attempt at doing so), you mention several times that the isolation is 100% self imposed. I agree entirely, but since this is indeed a problem (from what I hear), why not do something to facilitate an openness to the WF. This is what I'm trying to get people to think about. Instead of hoping that a problem will go away on its own, I would prefer to take a proactive approach.

From just a random person on POTN who lurks in the wedding forum and posts once in a blue moon...

You, the wedding photogs, can break out of this isolation yourself. Post your photos in the people section, post your gear questions in the gear sections, post your business questions in the business section, have your chit chat thread in the general discussion section.

Sure, it's nice having all that stuff in one central location... but it *might* also be nice to spread your wings opening yourself up to other talented and knowledgeable people in all the other sections of POTN. And if that happens and the need is there, the powers at be may find a better forum organization.

[cdifoto]

I think it's time for us all go to to the box thread.

[S.Horton]

When I see posts about 'WF', I get confused.

I thought POTN was one (1) global forum in total, run by volunteers.

Demands can rarely be placed upon volunteers.

I think that some people expect too much from POTN.

[cdifoto]

I think that some people expect too much from POTN.

Pfft. I bought two, yes TWO, POTN straps. They owe me a chauffeur. I'm VIP, biatch. :cool:


:lol:

[S.Horton]

^^ Yeah, well I donated cash. So, I want a mind-reading search engine.

And, given your title, who in the world actually knows what you needed two (2) straps for anyway?

;):p:cool:

I think we need to send Mike Wallace to investigate the disturbances in the POTN mojo-force. Nah, on second thought, let's call Doctor Phil; he could find the lost mojo. (edit) - I've rethought that: let's find a marriage expert because it is, after all, the wedding forum.

[cdifoto]

[fake look of innocent naivete]

I have no idea what that title is about.

[/fake look of innocent naivete]

[Picture North Carolina]

We have real friends online. Many of us just came back from a wedding forum meet, and we had a blast. We just hate when something bad happens to one of our friends.

Perhaps that's the essence of the problem - perhaps there's a group of people who are just too "cliquish"; i.e., over-protective and (as a result) over-reactive. I detected that same behavior in the landscape forum about a year ago - a small group of people (probably old-time regulars) who over-reacted and seemed to gang up on people - almost like a shark feeding frenzy. I'm primarily a landscape shooter but I said to myself "to hell with it" and didn't visit that forum for probably 8 months or more. I only recently decided to revisit it again.

Be more "community-minded", not "clique-protective," openly discussing and tolerating different points of view and cease feeding frenzies. That will solve it. /Dan

[SuzyView]

Good morning!

Wow, what did I miss yesterday?

I've been sitting back for a while now about this, but I will speak. After meeting many of these find photographers, I love the Wedding Forum folks. That being said, I know it is a tight community because learning and producing is so important for many of our livelihoods. But I've been blessed to be a macro IM this time for book II and I've worked with several people not in the WF and I'm so grateful for the help I've gotten to get up to speed. POTN is an amazing collaboration or great hobbiests and professionals. How lucky are we?

I have also been well acquainted with people who get their feelings hurt or have taken a statement wrong, or have given a scathing comment, or criticized harshly a newbie. This is when PM's and moderators have to come in to fix. That's so sad.

The forum is what it is, an offering for photographers to share. People from all over the world are here. I am a wedding photographer, and I think that's a great thing. But I think visiting the other forums has been fun, too. I've learned a lot lately about bugs, for instance. :) I thought it was going to be gross, I think it's really wonderful. I'm ready to buy a 100 macro just to join in. :)

[Jamie Holladay]

Good morning!

Wow, what did I miss yesterday?

I've been sitting back for a while now about this, but I will speak. After meeting many of these find photographers, I love the Wedding Forum folks. That being said, I know it is a tight community because learning and producing is so important for many of our livelihoods. But I've been blessed to be a macro IM this time for book II and I've worked with several people not in the WF and I'm so grateful for the help I've gotten to get up to speed. POTN is an amazing collaboration or great hobbiests and professionals. How lucky are we?

I have also been well acquainted with people who get their feelings hurt or have taken a statement wrong, or have given a scathing comment, or criticized harshly a newbie. This is when PM's and moderators have to come in to fix. That's so sad.

The forum is what it is, an offering for photographers to share. People from all over the world are here. I am a wedding photographer, and I think that's a great thing. But I think visiting the other forums has been fun, too. I've learned a lot lately about bugs, for instance. :) I thought it was going to be gross, I think it's really wonderful. I'm ready to buy a 100 macro just to join in. :)
Speaking as a forum member and not as a part of the book project:
Not to belabor the point, but when I first joined I "hung out" in trans/m'sports. Along came a game called TPBM. Then the Chat thread, then the friends which broadened my interest in other aspects like Suzy just mentioned. Now I find myself getting up at 5:00 on Sunday (when there are not cars to shoot ;)) and going to our little wildlife preserve to shoot some birds or what ever else I chance upon. I guess my point is diversity in photography is like diversity in an investment portfolio; It can only strengthen your skills.

[SuzyView]

As I said many times before, the friendships I've formed here have made me a better person, not just a better photographer. And I think my family is suspicious of me spending so much time on the computer. :)