I am so tired of shots like these.

[In2Photos]

I can't wait to get a new camera. I hope it will solve some of my focusing woes. Until then I will have to live with missing some shots every now and then, but lately the number of misfires has been ridiculous. I know I need more practice and that I don't have that much experience yet, but I really thought I could do better than this.

All of the following shots were taken with my Rebel XT, 70-200 f/4 L, AI Servo, Center point only, CF 4-3. I had lock on the target right before I pressed the shutter.

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[AdamLewis]

Wow. Those are really OOF.

One thing that makes me wonder though is you said you use AI servo, but that you had "lock" on the target before you pressed the shutter. From my experience, AI servo never locks onto anything. Its always checking to make sure youre in focus.

But dang...I mean those are so OOF...

[cdifoto]

One thing that makes me wonder though is you said you use AI servo, but that you had "lock" on the target before you pressed the shutter. From my experience, AI servo never locks onto anything. Its always checking to make sure youre in focus.

I'm pretty sure he meant that the target was in focus, until he tripped the shutter. Kinda like how a fighter pilot says he's got the MiG "locked on target"...

[In2Photos]

Wow. Those are really OOF.

One thing that makes me wonder though is you said you use AI servo, but that you had "lock" on the target before you pressed the shutter. From my experience, AI servo never locks onto anything. Its always checking to make sure youre in focus.

But dang...I mean those are so OOF...
When I say lock, I mean the focus was dead on my subject. Not locked like in one-shot mode with a beep for confirmation.

[In2Photos]

I'm pretty sure he meant that the target was in focus, until he tripped the shutter.
Correct. Thanks Don.

[MT Stringer]

I don't recall. What does custon function 4-3 do?
Mike

[In2Photos]

I don't recall. What does custon function 4-3 do?
Mike
Changes the * button to AE/AF, no AE Lock.

[4x4rock]

I don't recall. What does custon function 4-3 do?
Mike


Focus with * but AE not lock until right before the shutter fires.

[Maureen Souza]

Shuck, Mike...... those look like MY action shots;)

[jdizzle]

HOly OOF Batman! I can see the frustration you're having with the Xt. What do you plan on doing?

[In2Photos]

Shuck, Mike...... those look like MY action shots;)
:lol: Thanks Mo. I needed a good laugh. I doubt yours look like that.
HOly OOF Batman! I can see the frustration you're having with the Xt. What do you plan on doing?
Getting a 40D hopefully. ;) Until then I will keep practicing.

[4x4rock]

Getting a 40D hopefully. ;) Until then I will keep practicing.


I get those shots with the 1D MK II too. :lol:

[In2Photos]

Here is another shot, actually a series of shots. There are 8 shots in this series, but I will only show 3. The first 6 are in focus, the 7th is not and the 8th is back in focus. These shots have not been processed, nor cropped, only resized.

6th shot in the series
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Next shot (7th)
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[In2Photos]

And the next shot (8th)

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[Riverlander]

That 7th shot is definitely focused on #12 in the background, so it looks like you missed the target with your focus point at that stage.
I am not sure on a 300D, but have you got the other Custom functions set correctly? I think there is one in Cfn 2 that has to be correct as well?

[redoor]

I had the same problem this week wnd with my 40D...I just chalked it up to inexperience on my part. I was shooting hockey and in AI Servo mode...would it help if you shoot with all nine focus points as compared to center point? These are ones of my son Adam..(that worked)

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[In2Photos]

That 7th shot is definitely focused on #12 in the background, so it looks like you missed the target with your focus point at that stage.
I am not sure on a 300D, but have you got the other Custom functions set correctly? I think there is one in Cfn 2 that has to be correct as well?
How could I have missed the target? She is dead centered in the frame with a huge contrasty stripe running right down the middle of her torso. And why only this one shot out of 8 done exactly the same way? :confused::evil:

[dmwierz]

Mike,

How could I have missed the target? She is dead centered in the frame with a huge contrasty stripe running right down the middle of her torso. And why only this one shot out of 8 done exactly the same way?

Did your XT suddenly start acting like this? It's a capable camera AF-wise so I wonder, have you tried resetting the camera then starting over? I looked ay your web site and it's clear you have been able to get sharp pictures of sports in the past. What is different now compared to before?

BTW, it's not that unusual for one or more shots in a burst to be OOF even in a MkIIn.

[Croasdail]

Mike, you have got to remember that the camera really is a dumb device - even with AF and AI-Servo. It only sees in two deminsions, not three. So while you see that the subject is standing a reasonable ways ahead of the trees, the camera has no concept of this. Rather it is looking at contrast lines. That is why finding a clean background when shooting is essential to not only good looking shots, but better AF performance as well. Fall colors provide for tons of contrast. Add to that the focus points on the older camera bodies are relatively fat.... looking at a good sized area each. They are not pin points like you see in your view finder. The camera is going to search for any contrast it's coverage area. The 40D is supposed to have finer precision focus points - so hopefully it will be better, though I have never shot with one. But still remember - 2D is what the camera is seeing.

Last little snigglet on the focusing... .many swear by the 4-3 focusing thingie. I have never been fond of this method for action shooting. I want to be totally "focused" on tracking the subject. I know for some it becomes almost an automatic process for them. Me, I want to know if I am pressing the shutter release, the camera has focus lock - period. I don't want to have to know I am mashing two buttons at the same time. Call me a Wii style photographer rather then an xBox photo guy... keep it real simple for me to not mess up.

[bwolford]

What kind of cropping did you do on the first set? Was anything in frame in focus?

[KIPAX]

Last little snigglet on the focusing... .many swear by the 4-3 focusing thingie. I have never been fond of this method for action shooting. I want to be totally "focused" on tracking the subject. I know for some it becomes almost an automatic process for them. Me, I want to know if I am pressing the shutter release, the camera has focus lock - period. I don't want to have to know I am mashing two buttons at the same time. Call me a Wii style photographer rather then an xBox photo guy... keep it real simple for me to not mess up.

100% Ditto!

I shoot everything manual now so all I need is half depress for the focus there and then.. not seconds ago.. I want focus at the time I shoot :)

[Gatorboy]

When I used my 20D/30D, I found much better results using ALL focus points rather than just one. Have you tried that?

With the 20D/30D, even with ALL focus points selected, the center point is the primary focus point, and the other focus points will be used to maintain focus on the center. If you only are using one point, then you have to be much more precise in your tracking of the subject.

[In2Photos]

Mike,



Did your XT suddenly start acting like this? It's a capable camera AF-wise so I wonder, have you tried resetting the camera then starting over? I looked ay your web site and it's clear you have been able to get sharp pictures of sports in the past. What is different now compared to before?

BTW, it's not that unusual for one or more shots in a burst to be OOF even in a MkIIn.
Nope. It is done this off and on since I have had it. I know it doesn't have the best AF and I do get decent shots with it, I would just like MORE decent shots with it. I haven't been doing anything different except I have been handholding more and more lately. So maybe my technique is letting me down. Like I said before I definitely need more practice. I just thought i would be getting better and not worse. :o
Mike, you have got to remember that the camera really is a dumb device - even with AF and AI-Servo. It only sees in two deminsions, not three. So while you see that the subject is standing a reasonable ways ahead of the trees, the camera has no concept of this. Rather it is looking at contrast lines. That is why finding a clean background when shooting is essential to not only good looking shots, but better AF performance as well. Fall colors provide for tons of contrast. Add to that the focus points on the older camera bodies are relatively fat.... looking at a good sized area each. They are not pin points like you see in your view finder. The camera is going to search for any contrast it's coverage area. The 40D is supposed to have finer precision focus points - so hopefully it will be better, though I have never shot with one. But still remember - 2D is what the camera is seeing.

Last little snigglet on the focusing... .many swear by the 4-3 focusing thingie. I have never been fond of this method for action shooting. I want to be totally "focused" on tracking the subject. I know for some it becomes almost an automatic process for them. Me, I want to know if I am pressing the shutter release, the camera has focus lock - period. I don't want to have to know I am mashing two buttons at the same time. Call me a Wii style photographer rather then an xBox photo guy... keep it real simple for me to not mess up.
Thanks Mark. I switched to CF 4-3 because I found myself having to focus recompose a lot when taking pics of players standing still. It was nice to be able to leave AI Servo on, use * to focus, release, recompose and then fire the shutter. At first I hesitated having to use 2 buttons and I might need to go back to just one and try that out again.
What kind of cropping did you do on the first set? Was anything in frame in focus?

When I used my 20D/30D, I found much better results using ALL focus points rather than just one. Have you tried that?

With the 20D/30D, even with ALL focus points selected, the center point is the primary focus point, and the other focus points will be used to maintain focus on the center. If you only are using one point, then you have to be much more precise in your tracking of the subject.
I have heard mixed results using this method so I need to try it out for myself to see how it does.

[dmwierz]

Mike - You've gotten a lot of advice in this thread, and unfortunately, some of it is contradictory. I am always extremely hesitant to blame OOF images on equipment, as in my experience, it has ended up being operator error every last time. Blaming the camera is the easy path to take, but most of the time, it's not the right one.

I understand your frustration, but strongly suggest you explore things not related to the hardware, such as camera settings, environmental challenges, technique, etc., before laying the blame at the foot of the XT. I successfully employed the XT for an entire HS football season under some pretty challenging conditions, and know several pro shooters who still use one of these units as a back-up or second body. It's not perfect, but it certainly is capable of taking shots like those you posted and returning tack sharp images.

If you're interested in my camera settings, etc., I learned to use C Fn4-1 (I prefer 1 to 3 only because of the different way it treats exposure info) and can't imagine shooting sports any other way. I do not know of a single sports photographer covering pro events who doesn't use back button focus (I'm sure there are some, as every time I say this on this board, somebody chimes in with "I'm a pro, and I don't like C Fn4", but then again, I don't actually know these folks nor do I see them at pro events). I also shoot with a single, center AF point, as I found that every time I expanded my AF points, the camera would select an inappropriate thing in the foreground or background on which to focus. Shooting with a single point requires more accuracy on the photog's part, and you can only improve your accuracy by shooting more. I also use AI Servo.

I know this probably isn't what you wanted to hear, and feel free to explore other options, but I'm gonna suggest you either get more hours behind your XT shooting action events, or have someone whose abilities you trust try out your camera, before you give up on it.

Good luck,

Dennis

[Croasdail]

I am normally totally in lock step with Dennis here.... but in this case, I can't join in. There is no "standard" way to shoot sports... no prescribed way all the pro's do it. Just yesterday I was shooting at the ladies hoops classic season opener. This was a tourney featuring 4 of the 10 ten teams in the nation. ESPN broadcast both games. I say this only to show that the media didn't send their "b" teams for coverage. The chap down from me was an SI shooter. You know what his lens of choice? A 28-300 L IS. Now if you were to ask most of the "pros" on all if not most of these forums - no one would recommend that lens for indoor basketball. But there he was. ( I actually took a shot of it as I didn't think anyone would believe me) Also the ration of Nikon to Canon was nearly 50/50. The is no one way to shoot anything... thank heavens or we would all end up with cookie cutter shots.

And honestly - the first shots do look like user error. Nothing is in focus. You should have been able to see that through the view finder the second you took the shot. Where the camera is to blame is the view finder is so pathetically small that it is a lot harder to see that in real time. With the IIN, I am very seldom surprised when I get an out of focus shots... I pretty much know when me and the camera were not in sync the moment I press the shutter release.

Hardware DOES make a difference though. When I made the steps into digital sports stuff with first the 10D, then 20D, then to the 1D class bodies... each time there was a leap in my keeper rate. Some of it was I was I was getting better - but not over night. And I had large leaps in field sports with the changes. In indoor sports, the change was much less so. Maybe I am just a poor photographer.... but I like to see my self as just an over achieving average photographer.

[dmwierz]

Mark,

I bet the guy shooting with the 28-300 was using strobes? The lens you mentioned is actually not that foreign at NCAA and other top-level indoor events, but I've only seen it in use with arena or temporary strobes.

In the end, Mike, you need to do whatever is right for you. Of course there is never one way to do anything, especially something as "artsy" and subjective as photography. There are accepted standards and methods, that's all but each of these have exceptions and personal preferences.

[Croasdail]

Yep.... he was wired up good. I guess my point was if you were to go ask the hardware heads about the lens, I am sure you would get plenty of responses that it isn't critically sharp enough. I think there were either eight or nine sets of strobes working last night. There are tons of ways to work... there are some very good best practices. The point is having the experience to know when to apply which. I have seen tons of post saying you need to shoot wide open to get good shots. Generally for isolation purposes, that is true. But there are plenty of times when shooting at f4 or 5.6 works beautifully too... basketball being one of them. This is evidenced by the post with everyone in shock an SI photographer shot many of his favorites not wide open, but rather somewhat stopped down. Sometimes the venue is a large part of the story. When I shoot for visiting teams at any of the local venues, it's the venue that makes these images different then the regular post. I am sure ASU, Oklahoma or any other university have plenty of wonderful photographers at home to provide peak action shots of their players. It's playing in Dean Smith or Cameron that makes the image unique. If there were all shot wide open, that would be somewhat lost for the sake of beautiful Bokeh.

But back to Mike, like Denise says, you just need to find what works for you. The shots above look like either complete camera failure or focus was so close nothing is in focus. They are just above and beyond bad. Either the cf 4-3 is either broken or it just isn't working with you style of shooting. Turn the dang thing back off and see if you still have the issue.

[Maureen Souza]

Action is hard to shoot. My 5D doesn't do action well....still using the 20D for soccer, swimming, etc.

[chrishunt]

Out of focus images are extremely common with action shots. Even a Mark III will give you handfuls of blurry shots. Frankly, I'm blown away when I don't see a blurry shot in a burst. :)

[modemanual]

My XT has its C.Fn on 4-2, AI Servo, Centre Point.

Have you tried C.Fn 4-2?

[In2Photos]

In the end, Mike, you need to do whatever is right for you. Of course there is never one way to do anything, especially something as "artsy" and subjective as photography. There are accepted standards and methods, that's all but each of these have exceptions and personal preferences.


But back to Mike, like Denise says, you just need to find what works for you. The shots above look like either complete camera failure or focus was so close nothing is in focus. They are just above and beyond bad. Either the cf 4-3 is either broken or it just isn't working with you style of shooting. Turn the dang thing back off and see if you still have the issue.
Dennis and Mark, this is definitely what I need to do, just practice more and more and find what works best for me. I still want a 40D though. I have filled the buffer more than once with my XT and I am NOT a spray and pray type of shooter. But I am type that has to be certain I have reached the limits of my gear before buying more.
My XT has its C.Fn on 4-2, AI Servo, Centre Point.

Have you tried C.Fn 4-2?
If I am not mistaken this will only affect exposure and not AF. But no I have not tried it.

[modemanual]

If I am not mistaken this will only affect exposure and not AF. But no I have not tried it.

4-2 is AF/AF Lock no AE Lock. I get at most 1/4 of my shots OOF.

[Jubilee32]

7 is focused upon the trees - are these continuous rapid fire or individual? Looks as if you pressed shutter with focus point on woods

[In2Photos]

7 is focused upon the trees - are these continuous rapid fire or individual? Looks as if you pressed shutter with focus point on woods
Those shots are one right after the other in a burst. Remember that the XT only does 3fps and 5 RAW files in a burst so my "bursts" are a little further spread apart.