Have 10D owners gone insane?

[Vinny454]

I was just over at Fred Miranda and there seems to be the start of a feeding frenzy (which I am sure will spread over here). There are several 10D's for sale there that are going for less than Drebel's. One guy commented on how an E-bay auction ended for $820! The 20D sounds very promising but I don't see the the big hoopla if you already have a 10D. If I still had my Drebel then I would be first in line, no doubt. The improvements over the 10D, ugh, I am still not convinced they are that mind blowing. How many of us drive around with $3K worth of camera equipment (if you throw an L on it) sitting in the back seat rolling around waiting for a shot that would really take advantage of the .2 second start up time? Mine is always in the camera bag or on my neck and if it is on my neck, it is already turned on. Only a large Jpeg buffer :shock:. I only shoot raw so actually the 10D has the larger buffer. The 5 FPS would be nice, but I can work with 3. Obviously we can only go on reviews for the other new features, which sound good, but again, they just don't sound earth shattering to me. I haven't had my 10D that long, but I don't see any "back focusing problems" or "AIServo tracking" problems that I have heard others complain about.

Am I the crazy one for not seeing the justification to dump your 10D cheap just to get rid of it fast :? .

Vince

[robertwgross]

I only shoot raw so actually the 10D has the larger buffer.

Vince, I think we concluded the other day that the 20D and the 10D probably have the same size of buffer, measured in megabytes. However, since the 20D's image size is larger, the RAW file will fill up the buffer faster, in terms of RAW shots fired.

Maybe Canon will someday call their little press release "the shot heard round the world".

---Bob Gross---

[Vinny454]

I only shoot raw so actually the 10D has the larger buffer.

Vince, I think we concluded the other day that the 20D and the 10D probably have the same size of buffer, measured in megabytes. However, since the 20D's image size is larger, the RAW file will fill up the buffer faster, in terms of RAW shots fired.

Maybe Canon will someday call their little press release "the shot heard round the world".

---Bob Gross---

Agreed on that point. My point was that I can still get a 9 shot burst as opposed to 6 shots on the 20D. That is more critical to me than the extra MP for my purposes.

I was just noting the unjustified price drop on a fine camera.

Vince

[CyberDyneSystems]

It's going to be a "glut" market.. simply too many people looking to unload there 10D's at once..

Me.. I won't be selling anything untill have a 20D in my hands and I am convinced it is the oine I want to keep... I figure I won't even see one before December.. so I'm certainly in no rush.

[blinking8s]

It's going to be a "glut" market.. simply too many people looking to unload there 10D's at once..

Me.. I won't be selling anything untill have a 20D in my hands and I am convinced it is the oine I want to keep... I figure I won't even see one before December.. so I'm certainly in no rush.

I almost jumped the gun yesterday and sold my camera. But you are right, when am I going to see one? Any place that is taking preorders has probably sold their first batch already...and I cant click refresh fast enough to hit up anywhere else on time.

Plus I live in East TN...we dont even get the 10d in stores here. Not without driving 2 hours away at least. And they dont have a clue if they will even get one in yet. They havent heard a thing about when it will ship or how many.

If I sell my camera now, and dont get a hold of the 20d...well...I'll be in a bad mood. I would rather lose the price difference between now and then on my 300d's value than not have a camera for 3 months and be bitchin every time I see a photo op.

[Olegis]

I'm not selling my 10D, not now and not when the 20D will appear on the shelves. In my opinion, there are simply not enough improvements that the 20D offers, that can justify the upgrade. The 10D is one great camera and the 20D doesn't make it any worse, I still can use it to learn, make pictures and have fun !

[JABACo]

I'll keep my 10D and get a Mk II later. Or I just might buy someone's 10D, cheap.

[xuxu1]

I'm not selling my 10D, not now and not when the 20D will appear on the shelves. In my opinion, there are simply not enough improvements that the 20D offers, that can justify the upgrade. The 10D is one great camera and the 20D doesn't make it any worse, I still can use it to learn, make pictures and have fun !

I second that!


Anyway some day my 10D will be my backup and the main body will be a 1D MKII or it´s successor. :D

Meanwhile i´ll be spending my money on more "L" lenses! 8)

Regards
Ed

[Jesper]

You know, I don't want to offend anyone :), but there are a lot of rich gear heads, especially in forums like these - people who buy the most expensive cameras and lenses, just because they want to have the latest and the greatest - and they talk about the stuff more than they use it to make photographs with. If people were really buying cameras only because they want to make photos, there wouldn't be so much craziness like that.

Ofcourse the 20D is a very nice camera, but the Digital Rebel and 10D are also very good cameras. Nobody is suddenly going to make much better photos because they got a 20D.

[NickC]

You know, I don't want to offend anyone :), but there are a lot of rich gear heads, especially in forums like these - people who buy the most expensive cameras and lenses, just because they want to have the latest and the greatest

You're right. It's very much like Macintosh fandom where everyone speculates before and after the official release like a noisy chicken coop and says whether they are gonna buy or not gonna buy. I can't afford to upgrade my Mac and my PC *and* my camera every 10 months, so I do it every 2 or 3 years, and not right when the products are released -- rather than until I am satisfied that the hardware and firmware are mostly bug-free.

[blinking8s]

You know, I don't want to offend anyone :), but there are a lot of rich gear heads, especially in forums like these - people who buy the most expensive cameras and lenses, just because they want to have the latest and the greatest

haha...I'll have to agree...and admit to being a major tech junkie. But digital photography is my hobby. I take the film class and darkroom time very seriously if I had to compare the two, even though they both contribute two each other.

[Vinny454]

I'm in the same boat. I love my equipment, but I am not rich enough to just dump it cheap to get the latest and greatest. I just hate to see the 10D fall so far from grace in 3 days.

Vince

[RichardtheSane]

My 10D still does exactly what it did when I bought it.

And it has helped me capture some great shots, and still is. I'm keeping mine.

I'm interested in the 20D, but I could spend the money better on some more decent glass.

[xuxu1]

My 10D still does exactly what it did when I bought it.

And it has helped me capture some great shots, and still is. I'm keeping mine.

I'm interested in the 20D, but I could spend the money better on some more decent glass.

My words Richard, my words.....! :)

Regards
Ed

[Patrick 10D]

Me.. I won't be selling anything untill have a 20D in my hands and I am convinced it is the oine I want to keep... I figure I won't even see one before December.. so I'm certainly in no rush.

Exactly.

And I will not be selling/trading my 10D either for a 20D, should I want one. It will be nice to have a backup, especially now that my wife has taken a serious interest in using my 10D (which I am very happy about).

[RikWriter]

I agree, I am not selling my 10D for a 20D. The only way I would sell it is if I needed the money to upgrade to a 1D MKII.

[DaveG]

If the E-TTL 2 works as well as it's supposed to then that all by itself is a reason for me to buy the 20D. If you are someone who takes pictures on the weekend and enjoys the recreation of it all then upgrading to the 20D is merely because you can. That's not necessarily bad, golfers buy new clubs all the time - and yet never get much better. :D

For pro's the 20D offers some advantages, the larger buffer, faster and more accurrate AF and all the other bells and whistles. That 8 MP threshold is also important as I know of at least one stock agency who has decreed that they won't " ... take any of that 6MP crap." Now this same agency made no effort to insist on medium format transparencies two years ago, and I know how good the 10D's images can be. So I suspect that it was an effort by the agency to keep from having to wade through the stuff produced by weekend warrior's who bought a dRebel or a D70 Wednesday and are looking to sell to stock agencies today!

Still that was their policy and the 8MP solves that, and at the end of the day you do get a better image.

A small and almost under the radar feature in the 20D is Canon's file image verification which is important in legal areas now and perhaps journalistic areas in the near future. I can see newspaper editors insisting (at some point) that their shooters have only cameras that indicate that the image has not been manipulated.

I do plan on buying the 20D and pretty much as soon as it's available. I also have no plans to discard my 10D as it goes into the camera bag as the backup.

[IanD]

The only reason to sell the 10Duckwould be to be able to use the 1.4TC on the 100-400 and keep AF. We are talking the MKII and that is out of the budget for a while, a long while :lol:

[forrest64]

I will be keeping my 10D for the moment and might consider upgrading when the “30D” comes out. Not enough improvements in the 20D to justify the upgrade cost. However, coming reviews and user feedback, particularly in this forum, might change my mind.

Mark

[mjordan]

Remember how many people started dumping the D30 when the D60 was announced? And how cheap it got... then people realized that the D60 wasn't available right away and the price on used D30's went back up. Some of those that sold their D30 had to buy another one to use until the D60 came.

There are always those that will start selling their old equipment right away and there are those that will take advantage of the early sell offs.

And as someone else pointed out... Canon knows what they are doing, regardless of what people on here or the other forums think. And they are probably right a lot more than they are wrong.

Mike

[montyl]

Ok I will add my 2 cents worth to this conversation. First most people forget their math when they start talking. Canon did not increase the buffer size on the 20D vs the 10D so of course it is going to hold less 8MP shots then 6MP shots.

But I am disappointed that Canon is steering the lower level DSLP's away from RAW. RAW is all I shoot and have been pleased with my D60, but because of some of the enhancements of the 10D I bought one.

Now I am trying to confince myself the I NEED the 70-200mm f/2.8 IS, but so far have not been able to do so. I think that those that are truly unhappy with their 10D should upgrade, other then that I think it is only the trait of gotta have the latest and greatest, that will cause many to upgrade.

I would like to hear from anyone that has upgraded from the 10D to the 20D.

[Tom W]

I'm keeping the 10D as well. I was very tempted for a few minutes with the 20D, as it is a better machine, and does offer some improvements that I'd like. But there are two key areas where it fails, one being the 1.6 sensor, and the other being the inability to focus with anything smaller than an f/5.6 lens.

The 1D Mk II is more than I want to spend, so I'll wait. And as I wait, I can shoot plenty of good images with my present gear. There's no hurry to upgrade.

[Persian-Rice]

What I have been predicting for a long time. The 10D's will be sold at stupidly low prices................almost $700 less then a 20D that is remarkably similiar.......... you can probably get a grip and the whole kit and caboodle for like $900 if you try.............

Cheers. It's not like the 20D is a god sent camera for people to absolutely start giving their 10D's away...............

[iwatkins]

I'll wait until the rush dies down, then offload the 10D :D

Actually, I won't, I'll probably keep the 10D as a backup and now I've seen what the 20D offers do what I was holding off doing and go for the 1D MkII.

Or there again, I might just keep the 10D, it does everything I want. :D

Cheers

Ian

[PacAce]

The only reason to sell the 10Duckwould be to be able to use the 1.4TC on the 100-400 and keep AF. We are talking the MKII and that is out of the budget for a while, a long while :lol:

From what I've read in the Canon press release, I wouldn't be surprised if the 20D does let you use the 1.4TC with the 100-400L in AF mode. If it does, you know what's going to be in my bag come GCPS II or GCPS III, don't cha? :D

[PacAce]

I'm keeping the 10D as well. I was very tempted for a few minutes with the 20D, as it is a better machine, and does offer some improvements that I'd like. But there are two key areas where it fails, one being the 1.6 sensor, and the other being the inability to focus with anything smaller than an f/5.6 lens.

The 1D Mk II is more than I want to spend, so I'll wait. And as I wait, I can shoot plenty of good images with my present gear. There's no hurry to upgrade.

Tom, I think you're confused about the focusing ability and the f/5.6. What the specs say is thet the 20D's center AF sensor is a cross-type sensor that is sensitive down to f/5.6. Now, when you consider that the 1DmkII center AF sensor is only sensitive to f/4.0, you can quickly see that that's an improvement over the 1DmkII.

For the 20D, if the aperture is smaller than f/5.6, the center AF sensor will function like a "normal" AF sensor sensitive only to vertical line instead of both vertical and horizontal lines, so the 20D should be able to AF even at f/8.0 like the 1DmkII but this part is just my educated guess.

[Tom W]

I'm keeping the 10D as well. I was very tempted for a few minutes with the 20D, as it is a better machine, and does offer some improvements that I'd like. But there are two key areas where it fails, one being the 1.6 sensor, and the other being the inability to focus with anything smaller than an f/5.6 lens.

The 1D Mk II is more than I want to spend, so I'll wait. And as I wait, I can shoot plenty of good images with my present gear. There's no hurry to upgrade.

Tom, I think you're confused about the focusing ability and the f/5.6. What the specs say is thet the 20D's center AF sensor is a cross-type sensor that is sensitive down to f/5.6. Now, when you consider that the 1DmkII center AF sensor is only sensitive to f/4.0, you can quickly see that that's an improvement over the 1DmkII.

But the neither the 10D nor the 20D will autofocus with a lens or lens/converter combination with a maximum aperture of smaller (in diameter, not numerically) than f/5.6. The 1-series can autofocus with lens combinations as small as f/8.

[PacAce]

I'm keeping the 10D as well. I was very tempted for a few minutes with the 20D, as it is a better machine, and does offer some improvements that I'd like. But there are two key areas where it fails, one being the 1.6 sensor, and the other being the inability to focus with anything smaller than an f/5.6 lens.

The 1D Mk II is more than I want to spend, so I'll wait. And as I wait, I can shoot plenty of good images with my present gear. There's no hurry to upgrade.

Tom, I think you're confused about the focusing ability and the f/5.6. What the specs say is thet the 20D's center AF sensor is a cross-type sensor that is sensitive down to f/5.6. Now, when you consider that the 1DmkII center AF sensor is only sensitive to f/4.0, you can quickly see that that's an improvement over the 1DmkII.

But the neither the 10D nor the 20D will autofocus with a lens or lens/converter combination with a maximum aperture of smaller (in diameter, not numerically) than f/5.6. The 1-series can autofocus with lens combinations as small as f/8.

Do we know for a factt that the 20D will not AF at f/8?

[Tom W]

I'm keeping the 10D as well. I was very tempted for a few minutes with the 20D, as it is a better machine, and does offer some improvements that I'd like. But there are two key areas where it fails, one being the 1.6 sensor, and the other being the inability to focus with anything smaller than an f/5.6 lens.

The 1D Mk II is more than I want to spend, so I'll wait. And as I wait, I can shoot plenty of good images with my present gear. There's no hurry to upgrade.

Tom, I think you're confused about the focusing ability and the f/5.6. What the specs say is thet the 20D's center AF sensor is a cross-type sensor that is sensitive down to f/5.6. Now, when you consider that the 1DmkII center AF sensor is only sensitive to f/4.0, you can quickly see that that's an improvement over the 1DmkII.

But the neither the 10D nor the 20D will autofocus with a lens or lens/converter combination with a maximum aperture of smaller (in diameter, not numerically) than f/5.6. The 1-series can autofocus with lens combinations as small as f/8.

Do we know for a factt that the 20D will not AF at f/8?

I could swear that I read it somewhere reputable. I'll keep digging.

[PacAce]

I'm keeping the 10D as well. I was very tempted for a few minutes with the 20D, as it is a better machine, and does offer some improvements that I'd like. But there are two key areas where it fails, one being the 1.6 sensor, and the other being the inability to focus with anything smaller than an f/5.6 lens.

The 1D Mk II is more than I want to spend, so I'll wait. And as I wait, I can shoot plenty of good images with my present gear. There's no hurry to upgrade.

Tom, I think you're confused about the focusing ability and the f/5.6. What the specs say is thet the 20D's center AF sensor is a cross-type sensor that is sensitive down to f/5.6. Now, when you consider that the 1DmkII center AF sensor is only sensitive to f/4.0, you can quickly see that that's an improvement over the 1DmkII.

But the neither the 10D nor the 20D will autofocus with a lens or lens/converter combination with a maximum aperture of smaller (in diameter, not numerically) than f/5.6. The 1-series can autofocus with lens combinations as small as f/8.

Do we know for a factt that the 20D will not AF at f/8?

I could swear that I read it somewhere reputable. I'll keep digging.

You're not referring to the Canon press release that mentions the 9-point AF sensors that has a center AF sensor cross-type sensitive to f/5.6, are you?

[Sketcher]

Keeping my 10D AND buying the 20D. I want two capable DSLR's; one performing backup. Wife wants her own DSLR, she gets the 10D. Was saving for the MKII but decided that a great camera and more glass (20D & lenses) would be a better investment for me than an exceptional camera (MKII only) and no new lenses for a very long time.

Attended a concert last night where non-flash photography was allowed. Would have loved to have a 16-35 f2.8L on a 20D and 70-200 f/2.8L IS on my 10D rather than switching lenses on one body.

It seems far too many people have taken this new body release personally be it for or against a next purchase. People, your 10D [as many have noted] still shoots as exceptionally as it did before the Press release. For those of you who were expecting the next iteration of the holy grail in a $1,500.00 kit; Cowboy up and buy a key to the 1 series washroom.

There were people selling D30's to get D60's, D60's to get the 10D, the 10D to get the MKII and now perhaps the most interesting fork in the road; both the 10D and the MKII are being sold to get the 20D. More than a few early adopters cranked up their CC's to get the MKII and find themselves in unfamiliar (Pro) territory; realizing they've spent way more money than they needed to to be happy and the 20D presents an opportunity for a small bit of salvation from the excess of technical obsession.

NONE of it is worth heated argument or nose thumbing derision. If anything, it's buyers heaven because all of the Digital EOS cameras are exceptional in their own right. There is a great if not exceptional camera for everyone's budget and everyone's obsession. Having people 'dumping' their gear to afford the next is GREAT for those willing to buy used. Sure there are a few technical holes not quite addressed in one or ther other which leaves us always looking forward to new product, but it's a good time to be into photography. The only bad aspect of new product releases that I can think of (aside from the fact that I don't have unlimited funds) is that every one of the photography forms becomes less about photography and more about the latest hairstyle. In fact, sans nail polish smell and the sound of blow dryers I'd swear this were more a beauty salon than one of the premier photog hangouts on the net.

:).

[IanD]

The only reason to sell the 10Duckwould be to be able to use the 1.4TC on the 100-400 and keep AF. We are talking the MKII and that is out of the budget for a while, a long while :lol:

From what I've read in the Canon press release, I wouldn't be surprised if the 20D does let you use the 1.4TC with the 100-400L in AF mode. If it does, you know what's going to be in my bag come GCPS II or GCPS III, don't cha? :D
If it really does then I'm back to KD for the winter. Damn, and the wife was looking forward to tube steak every once in a while. :lol: But it wont be for a while cause the new Dell laptop is coming in next week and that will help in the return to KD. :lol: :lol:

[Belmondo]

Oh, yum.

Mac & cheese. The photographer's best friend.

[Tom W]

You're not referring to the Canon press release that mentions the 9-point AF sensors that has a center AF sensor cross-type sensitive to f/5.6, are you?

From Rob Galbraith.com:

"New-design 9-point AF. The centre AF point acts as a cross-type sensor with lenses whose maximum aperture are f/5.6 or faster. If an f/2.8 or faster lens is used, the centre AF point detects focus with 3x greater precision than with slower lenses, thanks to a new AF sensor design unique to the EOS 20D. The outer 8 AF sensors are vertically-oriented, though designed to operate with greater precision than the outer AF sensors in the EOS 10D. Focusing sensitivity is rated down to -0.5EV. The sum of these changes is intended to be faster, more accurate acquisition of focus on static subjects (our preproduction EOS 20D is impressively quick and precise in this regard with f/2.8 lenses), as well as improved AF prediction in sequence shooting, relative to the 10D"

Given that the outer sensors aren't going to be any more sensitive than the center, I read this to say that it will work with 5.6 and faster, but not slower.

[JABACo]

Damn, and the wife was looking forward to tube steak every once in a while. :lol:

Did you say 'tube steak" or did you say "tube steak". Maybe I misunderstood what you said here. Because I try my best to give my wife as much "tube steak" as I can.

BA

[PacAce]

You're not referring to the Canon press release that mentions the 9-point AF sensors that has a center AF sensor cross-type sensitive to f/5.6, are you?

From Rob Galbraith.com:

"New-design 9-point AF. The centre AF point acts as a cross-type sensor with lenses whose maximum aperture are f/5.6 or faster. If an f/2.8 or faster lens is used, the centre AF point detects focus with 3x greater precision than with slower lenses, thanks to a new AF sensor design unique to the EOS 20D. The outer 8 AF sensors are vertically-oriented, though designed to operate with greater precision than the outer AF sensors in the EOS 10D. Focusing sensitivity is rated down to -0.5EV. The sum of these changes is intended to be faster, more accurate acquisition of focus on static subjects (our preproduction EOS 20D is impressively quick and precise in this regard with f/2.8 lenses), as well as improved AF prediction in sequence shooting, relative to the 10D"

Given that the outer sensors aren't going to be any more sensitive than the center, I read this to say that it will work with 5.6 and faster, but not slower.

Below are quotes from the 1DmkII manual on it's AF sensitivity:


With the following L-series lenses whose maximum aperture is f/4 or brigher, the center AF point will be a cross-type sensor with or without an Extender attached....



With the following L-series lenses whose maximum aperture is f/8 or brigher and attached to an Extender, AF will work with the center AF point (horizontal-line sensitivie) only....


Given what I read above and what I read about the 20D's center AF sensor which acts like a cross-type sensor to f/5.6, I interpreted that to mean that the 20D will also AF with lens apertures smaller than f/5.6 but in vertical-line sensitive mode instead of in cross-type sensitive mode (or at least I'm hoping it does). I guess we'll just have to wait and see.... :?

[Tom W]

Below are quotes from the 1DmkII manual on it's AF sensitivity:


With the following L-series lenses whose maximum aperture is f/4 or brigher, the center AF point will be a cross-type sensor with or without an Extender attached....



With the following L-series lenses whose maximum aperture is f/8 or brigher and attached to an Extender, AF will work with the center AF point (horizontal-line sensitivie) only....


Given what I read above and what I read about the 20D's center AF sensor which acts like a cross-type sensor to f/5.6, I interpreted that to mean that the 20D will also AF with lens apertures smaller than f/5.6 but in vertical-line sensitive mode instead of in cross-type sensitive mode (or at least I'm hoping it does). I guess we'll just have to wait and see.... :?

I guess we can give both give Rob G. and Canon the vote of ambiguity - they stop just short of saying that it won't work at smaller apertures than f/5.6.

The 10D is a little different - it doesn't change modes, but will only AF with f/5.6 and larger. If the 20D goes to f/8, that takes away one more barrier for me.