When will it stop?

[tommykjensen]

I wonder, when will people learn that any new cameras coming from Canon, Nikon or whoever are designed exactly like the vendor wants them to be designed?

When people complain about missing features or talk about the camera being cripled it all comes down to that speculations before the release lead to wrong expectations. So when it finally is official people compare the specifications with all the speculations from before the release and so they get disappointed because someone said to his friend who told his wife who posted in a forum that the camera would only cost $1000, have a 100 fps buffer lasting for 2 hours and the kit would include a 5 - 10.000 mm f1 L no bigger than the 50 mm f1.8! And it was not true so they complain.

Just an opinion from someone that is sick and tired of seeing complains about a camera that only a few reviewers have had their hands on. (Yes I can skip those topics that are obvious complaints!)

To answer my own question: It will never ever stop :?

[blinking8s]

do the mkII users complain? or just tell everyone to drop 3k more and get an MKII cause all the other cameras are not good enough :roll: hehe

better AF on the digital models, like on my Elan 7n is ALL i ask for...we'll see if I ever decide to pick up a 20d

[John_T]

Tommy, you forgot to add that the pixelpeeping complainers to 90% don't have the money to buy anything anyway and it's really about envy and sour grapes. :wink:

[forrest64]

Since I (and many others) consider the Internet to be one of the greatest democratization tools ever created, this forum being an excellent example, I support all posters, even the complainers.


Mark

[mjordan]

It's the complainers that really bring out the weaknesses in a new camera or lens because they are the ones dedicated enough to dig and test to be able to prove their point to those that have rose color glasses on and won't be swayed from only seeing the good things in their currently choosen choice. :lol:

So those of us with open minds that want to hear the good AND the bad, benifit from this.

Now if we could get them to give us a condensed version so we didn't have to wade through thread after thread... :wink:

Mike

[tommykjensen]

It's the complainers that really bring out the weaknesses in a new camera or lens because they are the ones dedicated enough to dig and test to be able to prove their point to those that have rose color glasses on and won't be swayed from only seeing the good things in their currently choosen choice. :lol:

Well how can they test a camera that has not been released yet? Its all the speculations based on paper facts that are annoying.

[CyberDyneSystems]

...Now if we could get them to give us a condensed version so we didn't have to wade through thread after thread... :wink:

Mike

I TRY!

But with each new EOS release we clearly have to be braced for a new flood of posts.. :roll:

Some where way back in the pages here my 1st impressions of the MkII were posted.. I listed my 5 (or ten?) favorite things.. and five bad things...

Well I was slammed for daring to list anything that could be wrong with even the $4,500.00 "Holy MkII" :lol: :lol: :lol:

Anyway.. there is allways room for improvement.. even in the priciest top of the line Cameras..

That said.. it is clear that every time Canon or even Nik*n releases a new DSLR that the features are better. the performance is improved,. and that many of the gripes we had in the last version do get addressed.. (sometimes)

Some of us for some reason have succumbed to allowing ourslevess to be pulled onto this treadmill of ever eveolving upgrades!

I have to admit that I have succumbed.. and a year ago I would have said "NEVER" I will never feel the need to upgrade.

Oh well!

[CyberDyneSystems]

It's the complainers that really bring out the weaknesses in a new camera or lens because they are the ones dedicated enough to dig and test to be able to prove their point to those that have rose color glasses on and won't be swayed from only seeing the good things in their currently choosen choice. :lol:

Well how can they test a camera that has not been released yet? Its all the speculations based on paper facts that are annoying.

Now this is certainly true.. I suppose when a new release is announced and the specs don't address our own personal wish list is when this phenomenon happens..

I have to admit also that sometimes I'll form a gripe based on my understandings only to prived dead wrong!

One of my famous MkII gripes was the continued use of that battering ram of a 12Volt NiMH battery! I was very vocal in how I felt the tech was old, huge and clunky.

Well,. it still is,... BUT the MkII gets 1,300 shots out of that beast of a battery! :shock: (1D got maybe 450) So I stand corrected!

[tommykjensen]

Some where way back in the pages here my 1st impressions of the MkII were posted.. I listed my 5 (or ten?) favorite things.. and five bad things...

Well I was slammed for daring to list anything that could be wrong with even the $4,500.00 "Holy MkII" :lol: :lol: :lol:


If it was based on hands on experience I have no problem with that, but it annoys me when it is based solely on paper facts.

[CyberDyneSystems]

lo,.. yeah.. mine was hands on.. good point.

[tommykjensen]

Now this is certainly true.. I suppose when a new release is announced and the specs don't address our own personal wish list is when this phenomenon happens..

I have to admit also that sometimes I'll form a gripe based on my understandings only to prived dead wrong!

One of my famous MkII gripes was the continued use of that battering ram of a 12Volt NiMH battery! I was very vocal in how I felt the tech was old, huge and clunky.

Well,. it still is,... BUT the MkII gets 1,300 shots out of that beast of a battery! :shock: (1D got maybe 450) So I stand corrected!

And *that* is exactly my point :wink: Thanks for that excellent example :D

[RichardtheSane]

Some where way back in the pages here my 1st impressions of the MkII were posted.. I listed my 5 (or ten?) favorite things.. and five bad things...

Well I was slammed for daring to list anything that could be wrong with even the $4,500.00 "Holy MkII" :lol: :lol: :lol:


If it was based on hands on experience I have no problem with that, but it annoys me when it is based solely on paper facts.

I do get the impression that a few places that offer reviews online had had the 20D for a few days to test/review them. OK, this is not 100% relevant because the people moaning have not had the camera.

I think my only gripe with the 20D woul dbe Raw buffer... but I also don't know if this is made better by improved CF write speeds. Only those who have had the camera will be able to tell us that.

Overall, I do agree with you Tommy. Canon release exactly what they want to... the do listen to their customers but the also can't give them everything they ask for... just a few things :)

[Sailare]

Quote: Johnny Mathis

When the Blue Bells forget to bloom......when the Poets run out of rhymn.... in other words ---

"The Twelfth of Never"

[mjordan]

It's the complainers that really bring out the weaknesses in a new camera or lens because they are the ones dedicated enough to dig and test to be able to prove their point to those that have rose color glasses on and won't be swayed from only seeing the good things in their currently choosen choice. :lol:

Well how can they test a camera that has not been released yet? Its all the speculations based on paper facts that are annoying.

My point about the people that are the most vocal about their side of the issue... if they feel strongly enough about it, they will continue to dig, even after only the tech specs have been released. And yes, there are those that can tell a lot about a camera from the official specs that are released. They have the experience and knowelege to understand how a paticular spec is going to affect the equipment's ability to perform it's job.

No, that doesn't mean that everyone that is complaining has valid complaints. But only time will tell who's complaint was valid and who's wasn't. And like CDS pointed out, some will be proven wrong and some won't. But in the meantime it people something to think about and consider. And it's never going to go away or stop anyway. :lol:

Mike

[Andy_T]

I think my only gripe with the 20D woul dbe Raw buffer... but I also don't know if this is made better by improved CF write speeds. Only those who have had the camera will be able to tell us that.


Take a look at the Rob Galbraith review and compare it to his CF database.

He has measured write speeds with the Sandisk Extreme card of

- 4.8 MB/sec (JPG) and 5.6 Mb/sec (CR2) for the 20D at as opposed to
- 1.4 Mb/sec at the 10D and
- 3.3 MB/sec (JPG) / 3.9 MB/sec (CR2) for the 1DII :shock:

That's great news for the prospective 20D buyers.

Best regards,
Andy

[Cadwell]

I think the people who want to complain that the camera doesn't seem to meet their requirements or have the features they hoped for have as much right to be vocal about it as those who celebrate all the improvements and features of the new model.

Whilst it is fair to say that those who knock the camera haven't had a chance to try it in real life, neither have those on this board who are praising it. So should we all shut up? Should none of us talk about the the 20D until we have one? This would be a very quiet place were that rule to hold true. If one side is allowed to praise it then the detractors must also be allowed their say. That's called debate.

Of course, I have noted that criticism of anything Canon is often regard as heresy around these parts. ;)

For myself, the 10D replacement (whatever it did) was never on my camera upgrade roadmap, so all this is kind of academic. I still reserve the right to praise or criticise features of it should I wish to do so though.

[tommykjensen]

I think the people who want to complain that the camera doesn't seem to meet their requirements or have the features they hoped for have as much right to be vocal about it as those who celebrate all the improvements and features of the new model.


Sure, my point is that all is theory until actual hands on experience. Just read CDS example which is exactly what I find annoying.

Who knows maybe the 6 frame buffer for raw will not be a problem in real life with a fast CF then all the complaints have been for nothing and have instead had a negative impact on the reputation of the camera. Why not wait with the complaining until more people have had real hands on experience? And that goes for praising too for that matter - and if that meant the board would be quiet about the 20D until it actually hits the street that would be fine with me :wink:

[John_T]

For me it is the complaints built on suppositions built on speculations built on guesstimations built on nothing and no intent to buy anything anyway that annoy. Endless head tripping.

Comments and questions built on experience and intent for own application I find constructive and useful because something concrete can be drawn from them.

That said, the official Canon announcement on Friday, DPR's, Steve's Digicams' and Rob Galbraith's reviews which came out almost simultaneously sufficed totally for me to buy a 20D without any interpretation whatsoever. Everything prior to that was just muddying the water.

[PacAce]

One of my famous MkII gripes was the continued use of that battering ram of a 12Volt NiMH battery! I was very vocal in how I felt the tech was old, huge and clunky.

Well,. it still is,... BUT the MkII gets 1,300 shots out of that beast of a battery! :shock: (1D got maybe 450) So I stand corrected!

...but...but, the battery IS old, huge and clunky. The fact that you can get 1,300 on the 1DmkII and only 450 on the mk1 has nothing to do with the battery itself, does it? So I think you still have a legitimate gripe. :mrgreen:

[Persian-Rice]

I think you should turn the question around on yourself and ask why you think it's so great with the same number of reviews??

You think the features are sufficient, some as myself, don't think they are. For the price, yes, they are sufficient, but many want a camera better then the 20D and not quite up to par with the 1dmkII. Which you should agree many were thinking the successor of the 10D might have been.

In all honesty I thought they would make the 20D a much better camera then they are claiming it is. Then move the 300d up to the old spot of the 10D. Right now, Canon has two entry level DSLR's and two Pro ones, nothing between the bread. I don't think anyone says the 20D sucks or anything, but I guess people had higher expectations of Canon.......

It's called opinions, there is no right or wrong.
Cheers.

[KennyG]

I think a lot of people were hoping for a mini 1D MK-II rather than an upgraded 10D and their disappointment is being vented somewhat.

As CDS and others have said, it is only by actually using a new piece of equipment can you really judge how good or bad it is. As it stands only the reviewers have pre-production models for testing so people are reading into specifications what they want to. It will be a whole new set of posts, both positive and negative once the 20D hits the streets. Until then it is just a lot of noise.

What is that old saying -"You can't keep all of the people happy all of the time".

[RDKirk]

>>It's the complainers that really bring out the weaknesses in a new camera or lens because they are the ones dedicated enough to dig and test to be able to prove their point to those that have rose color glasses on and won't be swayed from only seeing the good things in their currently choosen choice. <<

I guess I have a philosophical difference with this viewpoint. Why "dig and test?" What is the purpose? Are you taking pictures or what?

Personally, I take a camera out and attempt to take the photographs I want to take. If something about the camera gets in my way, I gripe about it. If they fix THAT thing in the next iteration, and the cost is within reason, I'll buy the next one. If they don't, I'll continue griping.

But I'm not looking for some Holy Grail. I'm only trying to take pictures and looking for a camera that will do what I want to do.

I'm aware that TANSTAAFL rules--every benefit comes with a cost. Even if I could afford a Mk II (or had an employer who'd give me one), I would not enjoy using it--it's too darned heavy and I'm too darned old. The weight would get in the way of my photography, and I'd gripe about it.

The only answer to whether or not to upgrade is whether or not a new model removes any of the stumbling blocks to YOUR photography that the old model possessed.

[John_T]

I guess I have just three critirion for whatever I buy:

- Is it going to realize my needs

- Is it going to extend my capabilities beyond what I currently have plus room to grow

- Does it have a price/performance ratio that I consider appropriate

Doesn't matter whether it is for a car, a camera or a coffee machine. Expectations and speculations are useless to me. I can only use what I can get in my hands. I have also learned I can trust some companies to give me what they specify, be it BMW, Canon or Jura. If I end up with disappointments it's because of my own stupidity for not properly assessing my needs, capabilities and bank account. :roll:

[defordphoto]

I think a lot of people were hoping for a mini 1D MK-II rather than an upgraded 10D and their disappointment is being vented somewhat.

Kenny, I think you've nailed it. People were hoping for a 8.2mp, 1.3x sensor with about half the MKII's buffer for $1499. Along with many of the personalization aspects that the MKII offers.

That would have killed the MKII. Canon isn't stupid and I think they're offering a very significant 10D upgrade package here. Once people get the 20D in their hands they'll be impressed.

If you want the near MKII FPS, then just shoot JPEG. Yes, RAW is awesome, but if you ensure you're exposed properly, the versatility of JPEG is quite outstanding.

Most of my photos I have sold were shot JPEG. All my commercial sales so far have been JPEG originals.

[defordphoto]

John_T: Very well said. 8)

[mjordan]

>>It's the complainers that really bring out the weaknesses in a new camera or lens because they are the ones dedicated enough to dig and test to be able to prove their point to those that have rose color glasses on and won't be swayed from only seeing the good things in their currently choosen choice. <<

I guess I have a philosophical difference with this viewpoint. Why "dig and test?" What is the purpose? Are you taking pictures or what?



RD, because that is part of human nature. It always has been and it always will be that way. There are a lot of people that "talk" photography. Just like there are a lot of people that "talk" politics. Or do armchair quaterbacking. And just because I see people doing this and comment on it, does not mean I'm part of the crowd I'm talking about. I almost rarely feel the need to prove I'm right. :wink:

Mike

[RDKirk]

>>RD, because that is part of human nature. It always has been and it always will be that way. There are a lot of people that "talk" photography. Just like there are a lot of people that "talk" politics. Or do armchair quaterbacking. And just because I see people doing this and comment on it, does not mean I'm part of the crowd I'm talking about. I almost rarely feel the need to prove I'm right.<<

Ah, so you're not talking about taking pictures, you're talking about going to the moon, just because it's there.

Which is okay. Lay on, McDuff. But Canon's built the Saturn 5 to get you there--people are complaining that they can't get to the moon in a Yugo.

[Tom W]

Kenny, I think you've nailed it. People were hoping for a 8.2mp, 1.3x sensor with about half the MKII's buffer for $1499. Along with many of the personalization aspects that the MKII offers.


Actually, something on the order of $2500-3000 for an 8.2, 1.3X with all the other stuff in the 20D (digic II, new focus system, ETTL-2, etc.). Plus, a great big viewfinder, and the ability to AF with f/8 lenses and/or lens/TC combinations.

No sour grapes - Canon had to update the 10D to keep ahead of the competition. But I'm not about to jump at this one. There'll be other upgrades and when I'm good and ready, I'll jump on one. Even if I have to save up a bit and grab the Mk II.

[defordphoto]

Removed by RFMSports

[Tom W]

Again, that combination smacks the MKII and Canon will not do that to their bread-n-butter, Media/PJ market. There was always a pretty wide separation in their pro and consumer cameras before and I do not expect that to ever change.

You have the right mindset, Tom. Actually, I'm considering the 20D in the near future, but will not be making a pre-release buy. The 10D is serving us quite well at close to 24,000 actuations.

I expect to sell our Drebel this week. We have 4 buyers on the hook. 8)

I'm set on what I want as far as sensor goes. A 1.3X or FF is pretty much what I wanted before I went DSLR. That's still what I want. I just don't need the speed or the weatherproofing. That's not to say that I don't admire the 20D. If Canon is able to pull off squeezing more pixels into the sensor, and reducing noise, they are doing very well.

BTW, I think that the 10D market will be flooded for a few weeks. Might be a good time to buy one with low mileage. ;) I've only got about 5000 on mine, which amounts to about 800 per month.

Anyway, the only issue I might have with the wide gap now vs. then, is that in the film days, everything from the Rebel to the Elan to the 3 and the EOS-1V were capable of taking the same quality of image. They all could use the same "sensor". That isn't true now. The differences are wider and there's too much gap IMHO.