Do I smell sour grapes?

[ijohnson]

I think it is amazing how every time a new camera is announced, the owners of the predecessors to that camera start getting this "sour-grapes" attitude.

Was the 10d really that much better than the d60? I know that there was a alot of sour grapes here at that point too. Anyone see the G-series forum when the g3 came out?

Yes, I declare that the 20d is a better camera, hands down and that should be the end of it. All 10d owners should be jealous when they see someone with a 20d standing next to them, I know I will. If, like me, you can't afford to run off and buy the new body, then be happy with your totally awesome camera.

There, I said it.

[timmyquest]

:)

Will i be allowed to pitty you when i get my 20D?

[charlesu]

There's always going to be something newer, nicer, better.

OK you get the 20D. Then the new 1Ds Mk II comes out. Oh well....

[roanjohn]

OOOhhh, I wouldn't stand next to you with my 1D MKII.

................wait a minute...................

I don't have that camera.

................ :twisted: .......................

Ro1

[ijohnson]

:)

Will i be allowed to pitty you when i get my 20D?

YES!!!!

[forrest64]

I don't think anybody said the 20D wasn't a better camera, what they (and I) were saying was that the "betterness" wasn't worth the upgrade cost. By the way I still have my G2 and have never upgraded because it takes great pictures and the G3 or G5 just isn't that much better (or in the case of the G5, a little worse) to justify the cost.


Mark

[Belmondo]

Don't worry.....

The 20D owners will get theirs when the 30D comes out in a year.

We all have our day in the sun.

[timmyquest]

Don't worry.....

The 20D owners will get theirs when the 30D comes out in a year.

We all have our day in the sun.

True dat.

In fact it makes me wonder if i should just wait.

:lol:

[timmyquest]

Don't worry.....

The 20D owners will get theirs when the 30D comes out in a year.

We all have our day in the sun.

True dat.

In fact it makes me wonder if i should just wait.

:lol:

Your statement truely made me second guess myself, i thought "why not just keep my 300D and invest in a better camera in a year"

Then i realized "my 300D doesnt do everything i need it to"

Then i thought, why not just get a 10D for cheap?

Then i figured "Get the best while you can"

My 20D woes are over. When can we order? (when will i have an extra $1500... :? )

[defordphoto]

Canon loves it.

Cha-Ching!

[sGu]

20D is better in many ways compare to 10D, if it does what it says, however, personally 1D is way better than 20D, it meets all my needs and i know i can rely on that, with 20D, no way

[Sketcher]

If I made a living with my gear I'd have a 1 Series. As it is, I'm just an obsessive hobbyist and the 10D is more than adequate for most of my shooting. The 20D gives a really nice boost in performance compared to what I'm used to, my wife would like her own DSLR and I'd like to be able to take two camera bodies with on shoots so I'm not always changing lenses.

The 10d and 20d both meet my NEEDS all for a combined price much less than a 1DMKII alone (I was just quoted MKII = $3,919.00 last week). So, though there is always a new camera to drool for I'm quite conscious of my need vs expenditure ratio and I'm content to live within my means.

My 20D purchase isn't to replace my 10D but to do the above mentioned. So, no Sour Grapes here.

[agentm]

Yes, it is so terribly sad to think that 20D owners will now take better photos than 10D owners....

**** but then ****

10D owners take better photos than D60 owners....


**** OK, now I dont feel so sad anymore ****

Regards
10D Owner
:roll:

[Tom W]

Every time I think that I might want the 20D, I go into the closet and pull out the trusty FT, give the lever a wind, manually focus, set the aperture, and shutter speed until the partial-metering match-needle falls in the little circle. Then I move the camera around a bit, getting a little metering around my primary subject. I compensate a bit by moving the shutter speed or aperture, and then reframe, check focus, and fire off a shot. Takes about 10-15 seconds.

Shooting an old manual once in a while makes one appreciate the capabilities of today's newest obsolete camera.

[drisley]

Every time I think that I might want the 20D, I go into the closet and pull out the trusty FT, give the lever a wind, manually focus, set the aperture, and shutter speed until the partial-metering match-needle falls in the little circle. Then I move the camera around a bit, getting a little metering around my primary subject. I compensate a bit by moving the shutter speed or aperture, and then reframe, check focus, and fire off a shot. Takes about 10-15 seconds.

Shooting an old manual once in a while makes one appreciate the capabilities of today's newest obsolete camera.

Well said. In addition, you should shoot using a high iso film, take it into a darkroom, and then feel so glad about how little noise there is on today's DSLR's

[Jesper]

Don't worry.....

The 20D owners will get theirs when the 30D comes out in a year.

We all have our day in the sun.

Yes, why don't we start right now speculating about the successor to the 20D.... :) I think it's probably not going to be called "30D" because that sounds too much like "D30" (and there are already an amazing number of people who call the 10D the "D10" etc....).

My guess is that the successor to the 20D will be called 50D. Just like the EOS 10, 30, 50 film cameras. It will probably be introduced in the first half of 2006.

No sour grapes about the 20D, it looks like it's a great camera. The difference between the 10D and 20D is larger than the difference between the D60 and the 10D. And I'm still very happy with my 10D. Yes, ofcourse I'd love to have a 20D, but I'm not going to be stupid and dump my 10D as quickly as possible. I'm keeping my 10D, unless I get an opportunity to sell it for a very good price.

[John_T]

Ok, now let's all sing sweetly in chorus:

OOH I YAM AH SUCKAH,

AH SUCKAH,

AH SUCKAH

IT DON'T MATTAH AH DAMN,

AH DAMN,

AH DAMN,

IF IT'S AH CAMERAH,

AH CAH,

AH TOASTAH

I YAM AH SUCKAH,

AH DAMN SUCKAH,

AH DAMN SUCKAH

TAKE ALL MAH MONEY,

MAH DAMN MONEY,

MAH DAMN MONEY,

JUS GIMME THAT TECHY,

DAMN SEXY,


EDGE NOW!!!!!!!!!


:lol: 8) :lol:

[IanD]

The real winners in all of this are the camera companies. Do we really need a 20D, a MKII, or even a 10D?
If we make our livings at photography, maybe yes. I say maybe because for years photographers made their daily bread using far less techie equipment. However I'm sure most pros will tell you that life is easier with digital. Do we really need it? Or do we really want it? Big difference between need and want. Then again, he who departs this world with the most toys wins. :lol: :lol: :lol: I think I want a MKII. :lol:

[PacAce]

Yes, it is so terribly sad to think that 20D owners will now take better photos than 10D owners....

**** but then ****

10D owners take better photos than D60 owners....


**** OK, now I dont feel so sad anymore ****

Regards
10D Owner
:roll:

You know, it's funny AND sad to read something like this. When will some people learn, it's NOT the camera that makes the picture. It's the photographer. Newer technology may make it easier to get better pictures but "if you ain't got it, then you ain't got it" and no matter how sophisticated, expensive, or brand new the camera one uses, the pictures will still come out looking like a snap shot! Plain and simple.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[forrest64]

I think discussions about the technical merits of a new camera are well within the scope of this board and are appreciated.

Mark

[Kinger]

Well I for one will be holding onto my DRebel for years. I am still not even close to mastering it, and I don't think it is worth while to upgrade just for more features until I have done all I can do with what I currently have. But don't get me wrong, if someone wants to just give me a 20D or even a 10D I won't be turning it away, but I am very happy and I think lucky to just have what I have, and Thank You Canon for making a DSLR that I was able to almost afford but bought anyway.

[ijohnson]

I think discussions about the technical merits of a new camera are well within the scope of this board and are appreciated.

Mark

I agree.

[arumdevil]

Yes, it is so terribly sad to think that 20D owners will now take better photos than 10D owners....

**** but then ****

10D owners take better photos than D60 owners....


**** OK, now I dont feel so sad anymore ****

Regards
10D Owner
:roll:

You know, it's funny AND sad to read something like this. When will some people learn, it's NOT the camera that makes the picture. It's the photographer. Newer technology may make it easier to get better pictures but "if you ain't got it, then you ain't got it" and no matter how sophisticated, expensive, or brand new the camera one uses, the pictures will still come out looking like a snap shot! Plain and simple.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

no ****? I seriously doubt that agentm really thinks the "better" cameras will automatically take better photos. I perceived his post as humorous :shock: ?????

[agentm]

I was sarcastic! :roll:

Trying to illustrate how some people think that the camera will make them a better photographer. The biggest deception you can fall into.

Its the same as someone driving a BMW thinking he is a better driver and person as the one driving a FORD.

*my 2 cents*

[PaulB]

I do not know where you are from agentm but if you are on the Eastern side of the Atlantic you have to remember that those on the Western side don't always do 'sarcastic' very well - if, in some cases, at all!

[ijohnson]

I am living in Korea and over here we are absolutely NEVER sarcastic.

[Andy_T]

Its the same as someone driving a BMW thinking he is a better driver and person as the one driving a FORD.


This comparison is not totally adequate.

First of all, we're not talking about being a better driver or person, but rather of the result ... getting a better photograph. Getting to the finish line faster, if you talk cars.

And unlike photography, with a faster car (if it is *a lot* faster), you will most likely arrive at your target faster, even if you are not as well a driver.

A good driver with a Volkswagen Beetle (1969 version) will not very likely beat a bad driver in a Porsche GT2 if they participate, say, in the Le Mans 24 hour race.

However, a good photographer with a 2.1 MP point-and-shoot will most likely kick the ass of an untalented one with a 1Ds and L lenses.

Conclusion ... maybe I should better invest my money in cars :roll:

Best regards,
Andy

[johneo]

I think it is amazing how every time a new camera is announced, the owners of the predecessors to that camera start getting this "sour-grapes" attitude.

I guess when someone spends a large chunk of money and what they buy quickly becomes last years technology "sour-grapes" would be a good choice of words if you are the type that HAS to have the latest and greatest.

As for the 20D, yes, it looks like a great digital camera and there are added features. If you just bought a 10D it could be understandable being upset. Having said that, I don't see enough changes to warrent me chucking my 10D (and what I paid for it a year ago) for the latest and greatest. As I said in previous post, if I had no dSLR and was going to get one, the 20D IS the one I'd get. Having a 10D it wouldn't make sense and the obvious upgrade would be the 1Ds Mk II. Seeing I can't justify that upgrade, I prefer upgrading other equipment at this time. A new L lens would give me far better results with my 10D than getting a 20D.


All 10d owners should be jealous when they see someone with a 20d standing next to them, I know I will. If, like me, you can't afford to run off and buy the new body, then be happy with your totally awesome camera.

Jealous? Hardly! I may comment to that person, "Hey, great camera!" Probably ask all sorts of questions about it. But jealous? No!

I'm jealous when I see a photo (regardless of what camera was used) and it's what I tried to get and didn't and I think that is more of being envious. It makes me want to try even harder to get that shot the way I want it and question what I can do to make it better.

I found myself crawling all over the rocks a few weeks ago trying to get the best shot I could of a lighthouse. Someone else was doing the same, so I thought. I couldn't have cared less what camera he was using and instead I wondered what he saw from his angle compared to what I was looking at. Evidently, he was just getting a few snap shots as he was only there for a short time and only shot from the one angle.

http://members.cox.net/johneo/f134689g.jpg

Something I am jealous about ... how much better that shot looks using my Elan 7ne with Kodak E100g (extremely fine grain) slide film looks compared to my 10D ... Incredible! :shock:

[johneo]

However, a good photographer with a 2.1 MP point-and-shoot will most likely kick the ass of an untalented one with a 1Ds and L lenses.

I'll agree with that! I think someone with more complete knowledge of cameras, film, composition and lighting using a cheap disposable film camera and taking that camera to the limits will get far better results than someone with no knowlege using the BEST equipment. (not counting "lucky" shots)

I saw it happen. Guy on another forum years back never owned a camera ... "what should I buy?" ... "money no object", bought a trunk load of camera gear and I've seen better photos from cheap webcams than this guy took. I felt so sorry for the guy and when he asked for comment he didn't take it very gracefully. I hope he either took the time to learn or sold his equipment because it was pitiful what he did with it.

[CyberDyneSystems]

I haven't gotten past the fact that the only place TomW feels comfortable using his manual film camera is in the dark recesses of his closet....


:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Tom W]

I haven't gotten past the fact that the only place TomW feels comfortable using his manual film camera is in the dark recesses of his closet....


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I wouldn't want to be seen in public with an older manual film camera - people would talk. :)

Its bad enough that I drive a Ford instead of a BMW......

[John_T]

...maybe he is preparing for a "coming out of the closet".

...as a film guy?


Fess up Tom!

:twisted:

[PacAce]

Yes, it is so terribly sad to think that 20D owners will now take better photos than 10D owners....

**** but then ****

10D owners take better photos than D60 owners....


**** OK, now I dont feel so sad anymore ****

Regards
10D Owner
:roll:

You know, it's funny AND sad to read something like this. When will some people learn, it's NOT the camera that makes the picture. It's the photographer. Newer technology may make it easier to get better pictures but "if you ain't got it, then you ain't got it" and no matter how sophisticated, expensive, or brand new the camera one uses, the pictures will still come out looking like a snap shot! Plain and simple.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

no ****? I seriously doubt that agentm really thinks the "better" cameras will automatically take better photos. I perceived his post as humorous :shock: ?????

My apologies to agentm if I miss read his post. :?

[PacAce]

I was sarcastic! :roll:

Trying to illustrate how some people think that the camera will make them a better photographer. The biggest deception you can fall into.

Its the same as someone driving a BMW thinking he is a better driver and person as the one driving a FORD.

*my 2 cents*

And another apology to you, agentm. Sorry! :oops:

[Tom W]

This comparison is not totally adequate.

First of all, we're not talking about being a better driver or person, but rather of the result ... getting a better photograph. Getting to the finish line faster, if you talk cars.

And unlike photography, with a faster car (if it is *a lot* faster), you will most likely arrive at your target faster, even if you are not as well a driver.

A good driver with a Volkswagen Beetle (1969 version) will not very likely beat a bad driver in a Porsche GT2 if they participate, say, in the Le Mans 24 hour race.

However, a good photographer with a 2.1 MP point-and-shoot will most likely kick the ass of an untalented one with a 1Ds and L lenses.

Conclusion ... maybe I should better invest my money in cars :roll:

Best regards,
Andy

And that brings up another aspect of photography - its easy to tell which car won the race, but distinguishing among photographs is much more difficult. Yes, some jump out as excellent, but there is no well-defined point at which a picture can be judged as decent art as opposed to a snap-shot. And not all photography is about art either - pictures do tell stories and thus are effective for news, sports, and events. Some of the most cherished photographs are those spontaneous snapshots of things like "dad's 75th birthday", or "junior's first bike ride".

Now, its easy to find the technically poor images - and good equipment will easily reduce the odds of that happening. But distinguishing among the aesthetics is a bit more difficult. And that part of an image is not very dependent on the equipment at all, but more on how it is used.

None of this answers the question of why one should or shouldn't upgrade. But that is a personal decision based on ones' own needs, wants, and desires. A pro can justify their upgrades financially because the camera puts food on their table. The artist will usually make their decision based on their own art. But the hobbyists (like myself) will buy equipment for what may be percieved as less rational reasons. Some want the latest and greatest just to have it. Some of us like to have quality equipment. Some just want to upgrade old, unreliable equipment. Some want to fill a real or percieved need that present equipment doesn't satisfy. But in the end, none of that matters.

None of us have to justify our camera-buying decisions to anybody but ourselves (and perhaps an irate spouse). The BMW and the Ford will both get you to the store and back whenever you want to go, but that doesn't mean that one shouldn't consider the BMW if they so desire. If you're a car enthusiast, you'll likely prefer the Bimmer, but that's your decision and nobody else's. We all work or have worked for our money - its really our own decision as to what should be done with it.

[Tom W]

...maybe he is preparing for a "coming out of the closet".

...as a film guy?


Fess up Tom!

:twisted:

<<click>>

<<wind>>

Huh? What??

Oh, just cleaning the 10D..... ;)

[PacAce]

I just wanted to point out one other thing that's been missed in some of these discussions. Maybe there are some who were really looking forward to the new 10D replacement camera in the hopes of getting another body to compliment the 10D. And maybe these same people, having seen some of the "short comings" (to their own needs) of the 10D, were hoping that some of these short comings would be addressed by the new replacement. Can you blame them for being a little disappointed when the 20D was announced and they saw that although the 20D is a improvement over the 10D, the improvement wasn't enough to address their perceived short comings of the 10D? Is it fair to say that these people are being "sour grapes"? No, I don't think so. Are they jealous because the 20D is better than the 10D? Again, no, I don't think so. AAMOF, maybe they were hoping it'd be much, much better instead of just a little better so that they could run out and be the first person in line waiting for it.

I just think that it's ludicrous to lump every 10D owner who expresses his disappointment of the 20D or complains about a lack of new, or back-stepping of old, features as being a "sour grape" or jealous. It may be that some are but I'm sure a lot more are not!

[CyberDyneSystems]

Perfectly said Leo...

If you loved your 10D but had just one wish.. "If only it had a spot meter" or "If only I could shoot more than 9 frames of RAW" etc...

Again.. no way Canon can please everyone (unless they sold the MkII for $400.00)

...but if one had there heart set on a specific improvement,.. an improvement that the 20D does not deliver.. then the 20D does not look so attractive to everyone.

[Tom W]

Perfectly said Leo...

If you loved your 10D but had just one wish.. "If only it had a spot meter" or "If only I could shoot more than 9 frames of RAW" etc...

or a 1.3X sensor..... :)

Again.. no way Canon can please everyone (unless they sold the MkII for $400.00)

...but if one had there heart set on a specific improvement,.. an improvement that the 20D does not deliver.. then the 20D does not look so attractive to everyone.

I'd be very happy with a $400 Mk II. I suspect that 8 years down the road, there will be one waiting for that price.

Really, what you say is exactly right. The 20D is great, but it isn't what I want. I'll wait.

[John_T]

I confess I've still got an old D-SLR (D for Dinosaur) N*k*n in the closet, still smelling of sweat and blood, it's lenses all given away except a 50mm f1.4 now reversed for digital macro. I don't miss it or any of it's old brothers at all. Shelves full of prints and negatives and slides that are great but too much of a nuisance to sift through.

I have no pride in ownership, be it a computer, a car or a camera, but getting there is much more than half the fun for me! This computer is just a dream to hammer on. I confess I drive a BMW with such a delight, it is almost a disappointment to get there. A camera is a wonder to explore 'til I've pushed the envelope past the limit.

I must have some synchronicity with manufacturers, 'cause just when I've exhausted some equipment to its limits, they come out with something I can jump on to continue the ride. It might be the the next generation or the third, but it always shows up just in time, just before I start getting frustrated in learning more, in doing more.

It's not the computer, the car or the camera, it's the pedal to the metal and the glee of satisfaction in the journey. The images come and go, keepers become weepers, it's always the next one that counts.

Computer is fine 'til sometime, but now it's gonna be a 20D with an EF-S 17-85mm f4.5/5.6 IS USM and an EF 70-300mm f4.5/5.6 DO IS USM for travel by October and an M3 to tote it in before Christmas.

What can I do, it's like Everest, it is there. What comes next, I don't care. This is now. 8) :roll:

[Sketcher]

I just wanted to point out one other thing that's been missed in some of these discussions. Maybe there are some who were really looking forward to the new 10D replacement camera in the hopes of getting another body to compliment the 10D. And maybe these same people, having seen some of the "short comings" (to their own needs) of the 10D, were hoping that some of these short comings would be addressed by the new replacement.
That'd be me! And per my shooting interests and bank account, the 'short comings' of my 10D are addressed in the 20D. Nothing but GOOD from my perspective :).

[openspace]

A camera only captures the image. It is the photographer that creates it.

There are way too many gearheads out there.

These same arguments were going on when Canon migrated from manual FD to auto EF. Whaa! He's got better, faster, newer gear!

So what? I for one get sick of reading posts like "camera A has a 80ms mirror blackout while poor pathetic camera B clocks in at a sad 150. If you own camera B, kill yourself."

So here's a challenge. Let's focus on what matters - and that would be output. Images. Sharing our techniques and knowledge with the community. And making the most of whatever we have.

Hey if you disagree, fine. Canon will be happy to take your money year in and year out for the biggest, baddest and newest models. But in the end, guess what? None of it is going to improve your eye.

So if you want to go buy the 20D or 1D MarkII, great! Put it to use and share with the community. If all you can get your hands on is a D30, good for you! Let's see your work! But if all you want to do is brag about your new toy and how you are now somehow better that all the kings and queens of the world because you charged a new camera on your credit card, save us the unneccesary reading.

A newer camera doesn't make you a better photographer any more than a Ferrari makes a fat middle aged guy with a bad comb over look cool.

[arumdevil]

Its the same as someone driving a BMW thinking he is a better driver and person as the one driving a FORD.


This comparison is not totally adequate.

A good driver with a Volkswagen Beetle (1969 version) will not very likely beat a bad driver in a Porsche GT2 if they participate, say, in the Le Mans 24 hour race.


LMAO, I think that's bull**** (emphasis on I THINK if you're hyper sensitive ;) ) - most likely the good driver in the beatle will cross the finish line in one piece whereas a BAD driver trying to drive a 500BHP or whatever a GT2 is will be lucky to cross that line alive, let alone in one piece!

anyway, all my photos come out crap so I'm saving up for a 1Ds, then I'm going to get me some mag covers.

[Mogwyth]

[quote="Tom W"]

The BMW and the Ford will both get you to the store and back whenever you want to go, but that doesn't mean that one shouldn't consider the BMW if they so desire. If you're a car enthusiast, you'll likely prefer the Bimmer, [quote]

GT40 anyone????????????? :D

as far as I am concerned I have the best camera in the world, it's the one that works for me and produces what i want.

I'll agree on paper the 20D does not seem to be ground breaking and can see why some are dissapointed, but all those little increases may add up to a great camera and untill peeps can get their hands on one all the words, specs and reviews, won't tell you how good it is for you.

[Mogwyth]

[quote="Tom W"]

The BMW and the Ford will both get you to the store and back whenever you want to go, but that doesn't mean that one shouldn't consider the BMW if they so desire. If you're a car enthusiast, you'll likely prefer the Bimmer, [quote]

GT40 anyone????????????? :D

as far as I am concerned I have the best camera in the world, it's the one that works for me and produces what i want.

I'll agree on paper the 20D does not seem to be ground breaking and can see why some are dissapointed, but all those little increases may add up to a great camera and untill peeps can get their hands on one all the words, specs and reviews, won't tell you how good it is for you.

[John_T]

When I think about it, the 20D, the BMW and lots of other things really rock when you can get your hands on them, but there's no harm in a little vicarious voyeurism when you can't.

But fighting and argueing in vicarious voyeurism is a bit silly. :wink:

[Andy_T]

Computer is fine 'til sometime, but now it's gonna be a 20D with an EF-S 17-85mm f4.5/5.6 IS USM and an EF 70-300mm f4.5/5.6 DO IS USM for travel by October and an M3 to tote it in before Christmas.


John,

so far, I envied you only for your great sunsets :lol:

I'll most likely also get the 20D and the 17-85 IS early next year ...

... but the M3 :shock: ... I'm happy for you 8)
(Am I right to suppose that it is fiendishly expensive in Switzerland?)

I'm currently sifting through used car ads in search for a good 5 series wagon, trying to be a responsible family father.
There are some nice 540's out there, but with current fuel prices, I'm pondering it :P

Nevertheless, I still envy you for your sunsets! :twisted:

Best regards,
Andy

[John_T]

Hi Andy!

Yes, the 20D and gumpf is a must, for me at the right place at just the right time. I'm gone to Sicily and Greece just when it hits the streets, so I'm hoping there will be still some around when I get back beginning of October.

Not being a responsible father, I have a 330Ci now and the M3 belongs to the owner of the garage where I do my service. He buys a new one every year and hardly drives it at all. It's got every thing you can get on it and only has 16,000km on the clock with meticulous service by his crew. But the main thing it is Mystic Blue metallic which you rarely see on this car. In November it'll be up for grabs, and provided Mr. Dow and Mr. Jones get their heads out of their... er, cellars, I'll get it for a very good price. Everything is outrageously expensive in Switzerland, but it all has it's local proportions.

The 540s are great! Roomy, comfortable and fast, nice handling, just too big for how I like to whip around. Fuel prices probably won't stay up for ever, but what the hell, if you are going to ride off in the sunset, it might as well be on a mighty good horse. :wink: