Frustrated 10D user - i need advice please

[Ski-man]

Gday guys,

long time read, long time no write. I come in search of advice (again) from the collective expertise here - begging someone to help me sort my problems. Im getting really frustrated and disappointed with the results im getting from my new 10D.

Ive just completed the first stage of a photography course and learnt heaps. Not enough, however, to understand why my images are always so 'flat' and lacking in colour and brightness. Other results from classmates during this field trip (guys using 300D's) were far superior - we had our photos printed and on display. All of us were using P Mode.

The gear in use -

EOS 10D
28-135 IS USM
Marumi UV Haze Filter
Marumi Circ Pol Filter

Here are a couple of sample images -

http://redrider001.customer.netspace.net.au/pics/IMG_1734half.jpg
http://redrider001.customer.netspace.net.au/pics/EXIF1734.txt

http://redrider001.customer.netspace.net.au/pics/IMG_1749half.jpg
http://redrider001.customer.netspace.net.au/pics/EXIF1749.txt

Sorry, i cant supply a comparison image from classmates at this stage. These look just as ordinary on the prints as they do on my monitor :(

If i load those into Photoshop i can get them to look fairly decent - but thats the last thing i want to do. I want to start getting out of the habit of doing heaps of work on the PC and get behind the lens more. More photographic skill, less photoshop work.

Ive been reading heaps on these forums about white balance and metering over the past few days and after some experiments today, ive had little to no improvement. The last thing i want to blame is my gear - what am i doing wrong ? :?

In anticipation ...

[John_T]

Soft is the word... motion blur in two words.

Colors are fine and natural on my monitor.

But why on earth are you shooting so slow, 1/8s and 1/45s?

1743 almost certainly has refined motion blur in there and 1749 just a bit less.

Either try it again on a tripod or up your ISO, cause the 10D can afford it, and up your shutter speed too.

[Cadenza]

Try setting your contrast parameter to +2;
sharpness and saturation to +1. Experiment
a bit. Good luck.

[scottbergerphoto]

To me, the colors look very natural. I agree that the shutter speed in the first image is too slow. It seems to me that the main reason the pictures lack punch is that they are soft. They need to be sharpened. All digital images need to be sharpened. P&S cameras do alot of in camera sharpening. I leave my parameters set to 0. PS does a better job then the camera. You don't need to do all that much in PS. I find that with a properly exposed image I only need to do the following:
1. Open in PS CS(usually Adobe RGB for printing)
2. Crop
3. Levels, be sure to set grey point to eliminate color casts.
4. Hue/Saturation
5. USM (Amount: 100-200, Radius: .6-2.0, Threshold: 0-4)
6. Print Preview, select ICC profile for paper and printer.
7. Print(set printer driver to No Color Adjustment/Management)
It doesn't take very long with a good exposure.
Regards,
Scott

[John_T]

What Scott said.

I found 1734 beyond sharpening. You are shooting with an IS lens, but it won't cover you at 1/8s, plus the focus isn't there. So I guess it is off on both scores, vibration and focus.

1749 sharpens up somewhat, but still remains soft, or not quite there on the focus, background and foreground.

Could be a lens issue if this is consistantly the case. Try testing it on a tripod with complex subjects and use the self timer for shutter release.

[Andy_T]

Hi,

did you do any post-processing at all?

One difference between the 10D and the 300D that is often cited is that the 10D 'factory settings' have a neutral setting for contrast, sharpness and saturation, as most advanced users prefer to set these themselves in Photoshop. These are the settings Cadenza mentioned.

On the DRebel, in contrast, these settings are set to '+1', as it is targeted more to 'casual users' of whom Canon assumes that they want to do less post processing.

This might explain some of the differences you perceive.

Best regards,
Andy

[sjprg]

For the type of images presented, try using !SO 100 in AV mode at about F/8. Your shutter speeds are way too slow creating motion blur.

[Olegis]

You should not discard post-processing so quickly - it's just like developing your own negatives, only on your PC. The colors produced by 10D often look dull or flat - that's because the camera permits you to decide how much and wich color to adjust later in post-processing.

[EXA1a]

When I bought my first circular polarizer and shot a roll of slide film, I was very diappointed because all pictures looked dull.
This was due to the fact that all glare from reflecting surfaces like water or leaves was gone. So you lose the sparcle.

My recommendation: Start without a polarizer and learn how to use a polarizer properly by comparing identical shots with and without polarizer.
BTW: the polarizer swollows two f-stops. In scenes like your examples, you can roughly apply the "sunny f16" rule of thumb, means at ISO 100 you can use 1/100 sec at f16 without a polarizer.

And not to forget: f22 gives you diffraction blurr.

--Jens--

[mdude85]

I would definitely consider increasing your shutter speed big time to reduce camera shake ...

[Ski-man]

Thanks very much to all for the overwhelming response. Many lessons have been learnt and hope has been re-kindled. The softness due to shutter speed and/or movement was something that i hadnt considered - like i said, im still a n00b :)

What Andythaler, Cadenza and Olegis said makes perfect sense (about the 300D and 10D). Ill experiment with those parameters and see what results i get. Ill post back with information when i arrive at any conclusions. The only reason i was shying away from the postprocessing was because our photography instructors advised against it - which seems a little odd considering that PS is the 'digital darkroom' as Olegis puts it. Its obvious that they dont know much about the 10D - otherwise they would have known why my photos were lacking the colour that the others were producing ! Blasted Nikon lovers ;)

Thanks for the info on postprocessing Scott - much appreciated. Whilst im not a complete beginner in PS, im still not sure what an 'efficient' workflow would be. Do you guys use any 'standard settings' and batch process a pile of photos or do you inspect each photo for adjustment requirements ? (ie ... would it be safe to allow PS to 'auto level' all shots in a batch - assuming camera parameters are set to 0 ?). Ill leave any further workflow questions for another post after ive done some more reading.

Ill have a play with/without the circ pol as well. If they do swallow 2 stops, shouldnt the in-camera metering take care of that ?

Thanks heaps again guys - you're a treasure trove of info. :D

[Jim_T]

One more thing.. f/22 is probably the worst aperture to use..

Why were you using such a tiny opening ? I couldn't see a real need for the depth of field f22 provides in the photos you give as an example.

Small apertures introduce diffraction. As a result it's difficult to get sharp images with tiny apertures. The long shutter speed only made things worse..

f/8 is generally the sweet spot for most lenses.. It yields the sharpest results.

[Ski-man]

Thanks for the tip Jim. I was using those apertures and speeds because our instructor told us to take photos at the extreme ends of the spectrum; i guess the lesson has been well and truely learnt. His instruction and follow up were too vague for the lesson to have been any value to me though. Thank my stars that you guys are here though :)

[Rayz]

Ill have a play with/without the circ pol as well. If they do swallow 2 stops, shouldnt the in-camera metering take care of that ?



Yes, the in-camera metering will take care of that. It'll give you a shutter speed 4x as long. Instead of using 1/8th sec in the first shot, you could have used 1/30th without polarising filter. F22 also is too soft for the small format 10D, if you want sharp images, that is.

There's always going to be a compromise between maximum Depth of Field and sharpness. Often you can't have both due to the laws of diffraction. In the first example, F16 might have been a better compromise. However, I can see why you chose f22. In that particular shot, it's necessary to get the foreground sharp otherwise the picture is spoiled. If you have to sacrifice sharpness somewhere, then let it be at infinity (in that example).

Now that you've got these rather flat images, what to do? One really useful technique is called 'local contrast enhancement'. Using Photoshop's Unsharp Mask, set the radius to around 50 pixels (or even 70 pixels) but amount of sharpening to around 30%. This is the reverse of usual sharpening where radius is set to around 1 to 2 pixels and amount can be 100-200%. There's no reason why you can't sharpen twice, once with each method. However, you do have to be careful with the contrast enhancement technique. If you overdo it, you'll get enlarged specral highlights and loss of detail in the brightest parts of the image, eg blown out highlights.

ps. Are you the guy I met recently at Adel's Grove in Lawn Hill National Park, Kevin? :D

Ray

[Rayz]

One other point; if you want to use a polariser at f22, either increase the ISO or use a tripod. If you use a tripod at 1/8th sec then mirror lock-up might be useful since this shutter speed is within the range where vibration from mirror slap is most noticeable (on the image, of course).

[Ski-man]

Hey Rayz :)

Thanks for the advice mate... and good technical advice too. Its tips like these i need while i get the laws of photography sorted in my head. The more i play and think about what the camera is doing, the quicker i'll learn the art to some degree of competancy. I didnt realise there was such an involved balance to getting the picture just right. The laws of reciprocity - and hence the extra 4x longer in shutter speed makes sense... 2 stops swallowed = 4 times slower. Its the P&S mentality i have to try and get away from.

Good PS tips as well - ill give them a go.

Just a quick question regarding the polariser - will it take 2 stops depending on the position of the outer bezel or will it take the 2 stops no matter where the bezel is facing ? Also ... 1/8 might be too slow if theres activity in the park yes ? ... in that instance, id get a generally sharper picture but blur in the areas where people are moving ? So i would increase shutter speed and ISO by 1 stop each until i got a respectable result ? (gears are working now ... maybe) :roll:

And sorry, but im not Kevin from Adel's Grove :) Pleased to meet you regardless. If you come to Newcastle in Australia - ill buy you a beer :D

[Rayz]

Just a quick question regarding the polariser - will it take 2 stops depending on the position of the outer bezel or will it take the 2 stops no matter where the bezel is facing ? Also ... 1/8 might be too slow if theres activity in the park yes ? ... in that instance, id get a generally sharper picture but blur in the areas where people are moving ? So i would increase shutter speed and ISO by 1 stop each until i got a respectable result ? (gears are working now ... maybe) :roll:



I don't use polarisers, so maybe you can tell me :) . Does the exposure reading change as you turn the ring?

If there's any movement in the scene you're shooting and you want to freeze such movement, you'll need to use a higher shutter speed. On the other hand, you might want to deliberately keep such blurring to enhance a sense of speed and movement. Depends on the composition and your concept of it.

Ray

[billsh]

The in camera meter will not automatically adjust by two stops. It will meter the reduction in light and adjust accordingly. Two stops is generally the maximum reduction. Try it out sometimes by metering different objects with and without polarizer and you will see.

Good luck
Bill

[Rayz]

The in camera meter will not automatically adjust by two stops. It will meter the reduction in light and adjust accordingly. Two stops is generally the maximum reduction. Try it out sometimes by metering different objects with and without polarizer and you will see.

Good luck
Bill

Whether the polariser represents a loss of 2 stops or 1 1/2, how the camera compensates for this will depend upon what mode you are in. In manual mode there'll be no adjustment but the meter at the bottom of the viewfinder will indicate whether or not you're underexposing or overexposing. In 'shutter priority' mode, the camera will automatically open up 2 stops (or 1 1/2 as the case may be). In 'aperture priority' mode, the camera will automatically increase exposure time 4x.

What would be useful is a 'semi-manual' mode where both aperture and shutter speed could be fixed but the camera would automatically adjust ISO to ensure correct exposure. Perhaps this feature already exists on some cameras. If not, why not :?: :D