Pro Corner

[defordphoto]

More than ever a Pro Corner, or whatever you want to call it, is needed within this awesome forum.

If you look at the battles and arguments and bitch sessions, you'll see a consistent problem between Pros and Prosumers/amateurs.

(Originally, mistakenly typed as: "This is to suggest...")This is NOT to suggest a separatist approach to this forum, but as a former amateur and new professional, there are questions I'd like to pose here that I would never even think of posting on the general EOS forum, and that's when I revert to FM, RG, or some other forum than here for that information.

I think we have a bundle of sleeping Pros here that can offer much more tips and such than is offered now, just because there is not a Pro area.

That being said, if this issue once again falls on deaf ears, I'll join the sleeping pros that read-only.

I have learned so, so much through this forum over the past two years that it'd be a shame to not have a progression within itself for growth.

[Belmondo]

Jim:
I understand your concern. Are you proposing that this would be a restricted area as far as posting is concerned? Would you have it so that everyone could read it, but only pros could post to it?

Curious.

You know, this could be catastrophic for people like me who have something to say about nearly everything. What will I do? :wink:

[defordphoto]

Jim:
I understand your concern. Are you proposing that this would be a restricted area as far as posting is concerned? Would you have it so that everyone could read it, but only pros could post to it?

Curious.

You know, this could be catastrophic for people like me who have something to say about nearly everything. What will I do? :wink:

Not restrictive at all. 100% public. Ooops..I see a typo in my original post...

[CyberDyneSystems]

I like the idea.. And yes.. I think it would be good to support the pros we do have frequent this site.

[tommykjensen]

I like the idea.. And yes.. I think it would be good to support the pros we do have frequent this site.

I don't like the idea if it means that the PRO's will go sit in their own corner and not share and participate. Because if that would happen the enjoyment of this site would fall drastically.

I am not quite sure what caused this problem but I would hate to see people like RFMsports disappear from this site.

Don't get me wrong but I don't see an idea in an extra forum for PRO's that are open? It would just be an extra forum with a new name, if it had to make a difference it either had to be moderated very heavily or restricted and the last would be a disaster for the site.

I don't know what could be done to support PRO's better that won't hurt the rest of the community here. Well I just got an idea, for this forum software there exist a modification that ads a userrating / karma. All users can give other users a rating. Then it is possible in the profile to choose what rating / karma level You will see posts from. But then again I am not sure I like this idea afterall.

RFMsports Your photos are always awesome and Your contributions are invaluable. I hope You will stay active even if there is no new forum created. Just ignore stupid comments.

[Cadwell]

The mix of users and abilities and the exchange of information between pros, talented amateurs and novices is what makes this forum so attractive. I think setting areas aside for certain groups will risk compromising that. As has been mentioned, there are already forums out there that cater for exclusive groups. This place is unique in it's inclusiveness. It would be a shame to lose that.

[IndyJeff]

While I would be in favor of a PRO forum I don't think it would be any different than any other forum on here. If it was 100% public then amatures could view and post there as well as the Talk About Photography or General Chat Forum. So why bother?

Me, I think the good old PM works just fine if a pro wants to ask another pro something and doesn't want input from the general public.

[mson]

RFM please don't stop posting! I enjoy seeing your work and learn from what you post. One of the reasons I like reading this forum is because it is full of great people. I don't want to start naming, because I know I would forget some, but the pros in this forum are very giving of their time and knowledge. Sure there are jerks, and trolls, but it is the internet so...

PS can you have an ignore list in this forum? That might be a partial solution.

[Tom W]

There's a problem here, and it needs addressing. I'm not sure how though.

I remember 10-12 years ago, back when I had a 9600 baud dialup connection. Usenet was the medium, and I frequented a few forums there. The situation then paralleled the situation here in many ways - then, the internet was growing (and it still is) by leaps and bounds, and usenet was also gaining a tremendous number of posters. Those that had been around for a while were being inundated with a great deal of new posters. It got crowded.

On-topic discussions, and particularly in-depth discussions were difficult to carry out There were so many new posters unfamiliar with the subject that they served (sometimes planned, but usually inadvertent) to disrupt conversations at times. Very knowledgeable people began to leave groups, as those newsgroups no longer offered a platform from which they could discuss their given trade at a high intellectual or experiental level.

This forum has grown a great deal in the last year, particularly after Pekka's last update. There are many more members than there used to be. But, just as usenet, the seasoned posters are dealing with an increasingly less knowledgeable environment, and it sometimes hampers conversations.

If I stopped here, you would all think that I was implying that there are too many people here that aren't knowledgable. That is not the case, especially since I'm one of those that are not near expert level. My point is that the level of knowledge and "professionalism" on this site varies a great deal more than it did even one year ago. There's such a wide range of skills within the forum, that I think it would be a good idea for Pekka to consider a restricted Pro/artist area or areas.

I fully expect that I'll get a little flack for even saying that, but I think Jim is on to something. Perhaps a Pro/artist section with stricter posting rules and a heavier hand of moderation might be in order. I'm envisioning an area where Jim, Pekka, CharlesU and the other professionals and highly talanted photographers can freely discuss their trade without the rest of us unproven folks telling them that they are full of baloney. I don't see it as an invisible area, but an area where posting priviledges are highly restricted.

Maybe I'm way off the mark here, but I've seen some basic photography-related threads turn a bit nasty over the last couple of days (and I may have even contributed a bit). That nastiness is counterproductive.

Lets gather ideas here and see if something positive can't be done to keep this forum the best place for Canon-related photography.

[tommykjensen]

I fully expect that I'll get a little flack for even saying that, but I think Jim is on to something. Perhaps a Pro/artist section with stricter posting rules and a heavier hand of moderation might be in order. I'm envisioning an area where Jim, Pekka, CharlesU and the other professionals and highly talanted photographers can freely discuss their trade without the rest of us unproven folks telling them that they are full of baloney. I don't see it as an invisible area, but an area where posting priviledges are highly restricted.


But who's going to decide who is PRO's or talented enough to joing the group? No I don't think that is a good idea it reminds me of a danish website called www.photoinspiration.dk that site is invitation only! You don't get in unless the webmaster like Your photos! And if something like that happens here I am out of here - not than anyone would miss my contribution I am sure.

[Belmondo]

If the pros can't be insulated to some extent from the mindless babble that a lot of us engage in (me chief among the guilty) I would expect them to eventually become disenchanted and drift away from the forum.

I think such a form should be restricted to participation by professionals and serious amateurs. The determination of who should or should not be allowed to post to such a forum would be the purview of Pekka , the board moderator, and maybe a small panel of other professionals. They could call themselves an advisory group, or whatever they liked, and would have general authority to set they own rules and posting criteria. We ‘mere mortals’ would continue to post in the currently established boards.

It could be made to work, and would help to preserve the professionals as a valuable asset to the forum.

[tommykjensen]

It could be made to work, and would help to preserve the professionals as a valuable asset to the forum.

I think it will have the effect that the PRO's will stay in their own little corner and not participate in the rest of the forum and then they might as well leave.

The answer seems to be stronger moderation in the "serious" forums and not strong in general chat. Then the PRO's can still contribute in the forums where they can expect a certain level and can trust that flames, childish posts and trolls are kept out of or removed it required.

A seperate invitation only forum is not a good idea and will kill this site. Thats just my opinion.

[tommykjensen]

But why even discuss this any further.

RFMsports who suggested this has already left and does not seem to want to participate in the debate as to what can be done to keep him and other PRO's participating in the forums?

[Cadwell]

How do you define a professional? Is it someone employed as a photographer or perhaps it's someone who makes their living from photography? Is it someone who supplements their main income from a second business as a photographer? Is it someone who has had the odd picture published in a magazine or sold the odd picture to the public? How many pictures do you need to have sold before you are a professional?

That's going to be hard enough to work out before you start getting into "serious amateur". What the hell is one of those? Do we base it on number of shots taken (a sort of spray and pray approach) or do we take a subjective view on quality of work (perhaps 3 good shots out of 40,000 taken will get you "in")? One might argue that anyone who buys lots of expensive Ls or a MarkII is "serious"... so money then becomes the criteria does it?

It's impossible and I suspect my definition of both professional and serious amateur is going to differ from yours, and other people will hold yet further opinions. Inevitaby you are going to have people offended because they are not included. If you think the current unrest within the board community is a problem, then watch the place tear itself apart when this process starts. I've seen it happen in other forums and I don't want to see it happen here.

[defordphoto]

My intention of suggesting this (not the first time) is to create a room in which Pros/semi Pros/Pro-Ams could discuss pro issues away from the busy-ness of the rest of the site. It was never intended to create some segregated/isolated area where only certain people could post.

This idea has fallen on deaf ears before and I doubt it will go any further this time around.

It works very, very well over at Fred Miranda's and is as self govering as any other part of their site where they have sports, nature and other rooms in there for specific discussions.

Folks, it's not rocket science and it will work, just like the rest of the site works and self governs. With a gentle hand of site moderation, it will work. That way if ANYONE has a question specifically related to professional photography, it can be asked in one specific place. If someone is looking for professional information, it will be able to be found in one specific place. That simply does not exist here now and is one of the weak links of this board.

This board has been a lot of fun in the past, but lately has become quite difficult to have any kind of serious conversation at all. That is why I have not been participating much in the last couple of months and then with the blowout the other night and Kenny announcing his grand departure (I found out later via email) and me more or less departing (I'm still reading minimal).

It is not my desire to leave here forever. I've had too much fun here and made too many friends. I think the request is valid and very much needed here at this great forum. It surely cannot hurt to try it and if it doesn't work, the room can easily be tossed with a few clicks of the Admin's mouse and all is back to the way it was.

[tommykjensen]

If all it takes to keep You and other PRO's around here is a non-restricted but more actively moderated forum then I have no problem in that. Just as long as everyone can post but that will require more active moderation - and probably more moderators appointed because I am sure Pekka, CDS and Belmondo have plenty to do.

[Tom W]

How do you define a professional? Is it someone employed as a photographer or perhaps it's someone who makes their living from photography? Is it someone who supplements their main income from a second business as a photographer? Is it someone who has had the odd picture published in a magazine or sold the odd picture to the public? How many pictures do you need to have sold before you are a professional?

That's going to be hard enough to work out before you start getting into "serious amateur". What the hell is one of those? Do we base it on number of shots taken (a sort of spray and pray approach) or do we take a subjective view on quality of work (perhaps 3 good shots out of 40,000 taken will get you "in")? One might argue that anyone who buys lots of expensive Ls or a MarkII is "serious"... so money then becomes the criteria does it?

It's impossible and I suspect my definition of both professional and serious amateur is going to differ from yours, and other people will hold yet further opinions. Inevitaby you are going to have people offended because they are not included. If you think the current unrest within the board community is a problem, then watch the place tear itself apart when this process starts. I've seen it happen in other forums and I don't want to see it happen here.

You and TommyK raise good points - the definition is pretty subjective. I guess that if a segregated forum were to occur, it would be, as Belmondo suggested, up to either Pekka or a panel of Pekka's choice to make the decision. After all, the site is Pekka's property in the long run.

Anyway, I'm glad that this got out in the open. I've seen other good posters drift away from the forum of late, and I don't think that's a good pattern. As Jim and Tommy stated in the most recent posts, perhaps a fully open Pro forum as FM has might be a good solution. I visit FM a lot, but I never have posted among the pro's forum. Leaving the forum completely open (but moderated strongly) would leave it up to the individual to decide if they thought they belonged in that forum. With a good dose of moderation, the "which lens should I buy" questions would quickly be bumped into the proper equipment forum.

[defordphoto]

There is no defining necessary. It would be an open forum. The discussions would be more limited to topics relating to the professional side of photography. The discussions would be more closely moderated is all. It's not that big a deal to create and moderate and it's not by any means a split or segregation of the board.

If you want to find out professional advice in a forum people surely do not come here. Not that it can't be found but it's way, way too difficult to weed through the general forum so people got to FM, RG, LL or one of those forums where they have areas setup for professional questions.

You don't have to be a pro to ask a pro question and yes, it would get away from the "What lens should I buy for the millionth time" threads.

[tommykjensen]

Question: RFMSports would You still participate in the rest of the forums if there were a PRO forum? That is the my main concern if the PRO's stop answering and providing contributions in the other forums.

[tommykjensen]

and yes, it would get away from the "What lens should I buy for the millionth time" threads.

This I doubt unless moderators remove or move those questions. Because who better to ask advice about a lens than the PRO's?

[Tom W]

Question: RFMSports would You still participate in the rest of the forums if there were a PRO forum? That is the my main concern if the PRO's stop answering and providing contributions in the other forums.

I know you're asking Jim, but I'll say this: If pro photographers leave this site in large quantities, they won't be around to contribute in the other forums at all. If there's a pro forum, there is a pretty good chance that most will mingle with the rest of the photographers on the other forums here. It seems to work pretty well at FM.

[Belmondo]

and yes, it would get away from the "What lens should I buy for the millionth time" threads.

This I doubt unless moderators remove or move those questions. Because who better to ask advice about a lens than the PRO's?

I think you could rely on the moderators to stay on top of that. There's a lot of 'moderating' that goes on in the background that most of you probably are completely unaware of, and one of the main things we do is move threads to their appropriate boards.

[tommykjensen]

I think you could rely on the moderators to stay on top of that. There's a lot of 'moderating' that goes on in the background that most of you probably are completely unaware of, and one of the main things we do is move threads to their appropriate boards.

I know and I also know the "behind the scenes" activities - I run a website using the same forum software, though the activity is not like on this site.

[Tom W]

and yes, it would get away from the "What lens should I buy for the millionth time" threads.

This I doubt unless moderators remove or move those questions. Because who better to ask advice about a lens than the PRO's?

I understand that, and I think those that are advanced in the art or professional are best equipped to answer the proverbial "which lens" question. But I have to concede that there are times when the professionals get tired of answering that question over and over. Its not that they aren't nice people, but sometimes, one likes to have discussions solely among their peers. I'm the same way sometimes when people ask about my profession.

[defordphoto]

Question: RFMSports would You still participate in the rest of the forums if there were a PRO forum? That is the my main concern if the PRO's stop answering and providing contributions in the other forums.

Of course I would. But, as of late my participation on the site as a whole has been very limited due to the recent activities and I have been spending more and more time over at FM and RG and a few others.

As for lens questions would be fine, but on a higher level. Not the "I have no idea what I am doing or why I even bought this camera" questions. Again, a little moderation is not rocket science. I'd volunteer to help moderate this area. I've modearted and admin'd several forums in the past. This is small change.

[slejhamer]

That way if ANYONE has a question specifically related to professional photography, it can be asked in one specific place. If someone is looking for professional information, it will be able to be found in one specific place.

I would be very much in favor of a board like this. In fact, I would pay a small annual "membership" fee to be allowed consistent access to pro insights, and especially a pro-level critiquing forum.

But there is a big assumption here: that the pros who frequent the forum would be willing participants! My concern is that many of the so-called "pros" here seem to feel it is beneath them to answer certain questions, even those on more pro-level topics.

Of course there are notable exceptions - how many times has DaveG given an in-depth response to a post about wedding lighting? Unfortunately not many others so generously share their insights. Hopefully this would change if the questions were directed right to the pros, instead of just thrown out for general response in the broader forums.

If you can make it work, RFM, and get a committment from other pros to participate, it would be a super addition to the site.

[defordphoto]

My concern is that many of the so-called "pros" here seem to feel it is beneath them to answer certain questions, even those on more pro-level topics.

Really? I have never read anything here suggesting that before. Can you cite examples, or is this just an assumption?

[CyberDyneSystems]

It would be a simple task to steer the bulk of the repeated "what lens" questions towards the EOS forum...

And no it does not take a pro to answer the vast majority of such questions .. mainly because the questions are 99% repeats (70-200mm f/4 Vs. f/2.8 etc...)

Less expeierienced members can and will (in fact jump at the chance) to answer these questions and guide people through the t-con explainations etc...


No, this aspect is not a big concern.

[slejhamer]

My concern is that many of the so-called "pros" here seem to feel it is beneath them to answer certain questions, even those on more pro-level topics.

Really? I have never read anything here suggesting that before. Can you cite examples, or is this just an assumption?


It's an observation formed over the past couple of years, that many good questions on advanced topics - studio lighting, the "business side" of photography, etc. - get short shrift around here. More often than not, it's amateur responding to amateur. Like you, I have gone elsewhere when seeking more advanced information (in my cases, zuga.net, Eddie Bonfigli's child photography forum, etc.)

And yes, there is an assumption in my comment - that there are many pros here who are familiar with those topics and thus can respond to the questions but for some reason don't. That assumption, of course, may be incorrect. But it would be nice to have the type of forum you suggest, where these questions can be put directly to the pros rather than to the broader forum, and hopefully more insightful responses would arise.

As you said, there are questions you would not post here because of the potential lack of serious response, but you don't hesitate posting them on FM or RG. Our points of view seem to be more-or-less the same, just the reasons behind them may be a little different.

[ilya]

do a pro forum

works great elsewhere

tired of 'woohoo my lens is here' and the silly bitch slapping

so it also doubles as a place for grownups

[defordphoto]

Slej: Cool. Thanks for the clarification and I agree 100%.

[Tom W]

It would be a simple task to steer the bulk of the repeated "what lens" questions towards the EOS forum...

And no it does not take a pro to answer the vast majority of such questions .. mainly because the questions are 99% repeats (70-200mm f/4 Vs. f/2.8 etc...)

Less expeierienced members can and will (in fact jump at the chance) to answer these questions and guide people through the t-con explainations etc...

No, this aspect is not a big concern.

I vote to do it - maybe Jim would even help moderate. If this web site doesn't stay friendly to as many users as possible, it will lose its best members.

[tommykjensen]

It would be a simple task to steer the bulk of the repeated "what lens" questions towards the EOS forum...

And no it does not take a pro to answer the vast majority of such questions .. mainly because the questions are 99% repeats (70-200mm f/4 Vs. f/2.8 etc...)

Less expeierienced members can and will (in fact jump at the chance) to answer these questions and guide people through the t-con explainations etc...

No, this aspect is not a big concern.

I vote to do it - maybe Jim would even help moderate. If this web site doesn't stay friendly to as many users as possible, it will lose its best members.

Yes it seems that 2 moderators are in favour of an open pro forum with more moderation to keep it tidy so CDS/Belmondo put it up to Pekka to decide if he want to do this.

[Belmondo]

Yes it seems that 2 moderators are in favour of an open pro forum with more moderation to keep it tidy so CDS/Belmondo put it up to Pekka to decide if he want to do this.

That's an accurate statement, but it requires qualification:

Please be clear about one thing--- just because two moderators agree, this means nothing at all. This is Pekka's forum. Not only does he have the final say on everything, he has to do all the programming and pay the bills. He has created all this as a reflection of his own vision, and has implemented it very successfully. Moreover, we are all free to recommend, suggest, and otherwise express opinions, but it is not a democracy, so whatever happens will ultimately be his call. I'm sure Pekka appreciates your input, so don't be discouraged from expressing your opinions. They matter.

[tommykjensen]

Please be clear about one thing--- just because two moderators agree, this means nothing at all. This is Pekka's forum. Not only does he have the final say on everything, he has to do all the programming and pay the bills. He has created all this as a reflection of his own vision, and has implemented it very successfully. Moreover, we are all free to recommend, suggest, and otherwise express opinions, but it is not a democracy, so whatever happens will ultimately be his call. I'm sure Pekka appreciates your input, so don't be discouraged from expressing your opinions. They matter.

I understand fully. He is paying the bill so he decides no question about that.

[Scottes]

I was originally not in favor of a Pro forum, but as discussed here it makes sense. I'm for it.

I could even promise to be more serious in that forum, and not crack jokes.

[RinkRat]

I know i'm a bit new around here, but I like the idea of a Pro forum.
(no, I'm not even good enough to be considered an amature yet.)

I would like to suggest that maybe you could add a "Level of experience" to the profile, and have it listed under the username in posts. Most people, when given the choice, would be pretty honest about their selection.

It would help people identify what type of photographer they are conversing with.

Just my .02

[Pekka]

Let's try it out. It's open now, see the front page.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Looks good!

I'm not going to post in there though.. A mod would have to move it elsewhere 'cause I'm not a pro! :) :wink:

Thanks Pekka.. I hope this works out! :)

[Scottes]

I'm not going to post in there though.. A mod would have to move it elsewhere 'cause I'm not a pro!

Well, I hope that's not the final, real criteria. I'm far from a pro, but there's a few things I know about, and I'm sure that I can contribute when those few topics come up. CDS I'd have to say the same - though not "pro" in the formal sense of the word, you've got professional attitude and knowledge in some areas.

Granted though, our "pro" knowledge still doesn't come close to that of Kenny or Jim shooting motorsports.


But if anyone ever posts questions about shooting butterflies or feeder birds then I'll be happy to help.