Please help this idiot savant of computers...

[EdV]

I have called myself the idiot savant basically because what I can do on a computer, I can do really well. At work, the entire company looks to me for what I can do. But what I can't do will totally befuddle me. And I can't figure out RAW.

I have PhotoShop 7 and Canon Digital Photo Professional 2.1.1.3 installed on my computer. It is a PC running Vista. I have always just shot in JPEG and done touch up in PS7. I just recently started shooting in RAW+JPEG until I can get a handle on processing RAW files.

If I try to import a RAW file directly into PhotoShop, it says I need to convert it to a TIFF. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of RAW? If I import into DPP it says the same thing. If I convert to TIFF, what do I do then with the RAW file that is different than what I did with the JPEG? Should I go to DPP first then PS7 or should I go straight to PS7?

I know I am probably making this more difficult that I have to but that is the "idiot" part! Can someone please point me in the right direction. Thanks.

[PixelMagic]

You didn't say what camera you're using. However, Photoshop 7 is extremely limited in its ability to handle RAW. If I recall correctly, Adobe had a plug-in for handling RAW in Photoshop 7 but its no longer available for sale. For that reason you'd definitely have to convert your images to TIFF.

You can't take a RAW image directly to Photoshop 7 so you'd need to convert it first in DPP. You only need Photoshop if you want to edit your image at the pixel level....if your image is fine simply converting in DPP should be good enough.

[EdV]

I use primarily a 30D with a XT as backup.

[PixelMagic]

I know for sure that support for 30D Raw files was only added in Photoshop CS2 so if you have an earlier version of Photoshop you're out of luck. Adobe doesn't make its software backwards compatible.

[EdV]

I know for sure that support for 30D Raw files was only added in Photoshop CS2 so if you have an earlier version of Photoshop you're out of luck. Adobe doesn't make its software backwards compatible.

So what you are saying then is that I have to convert to TIFF, then import to DPP, do whatever there (I still not sure what to do there), and then move it to PS7 if I want to do any further work. Correct?

[PixelMagic]

So what you are saying then is that I have to convert to TIFF, then import to DPP, do whatever there (I still not sure what to do there), and then move it to PS7 if I want to do any further work. Correct?

No. What I'm saying is that you can open your RAW images in DPP and do your conversion and whatever global edits you want there (tone, color balancing, etc). You can then save the finished product as a jpeg for upload to the web for printing and a master version as a TIFF.

If you need to do further local edits (masks, selections, etc) that require the use of Photoshop, import the TIFF version into Photoshoop.

Edit:
You'll need to figure out what you do with DPP. A RAW image is simply the sensor data so it needs to be converted to an image format. While doing that conversion you can also do global corrections such as white balance, etc.

[tzalman]

As a small addition to F the C's advise: since PS7 has very limited support for 16 bit images you will be best off doing as much as you can in DPP which edits the 12 or 14 bit RAW with 16 bit accuracy, and then going to PS7 with an 8 bit tif.

Also, update your DPP to version 3.2:
http://software.canon-europe.com/products/0010371.asp
It has several improvements.

[number six]

If you're feeling limited by PS7 you might check into Paint Shop Pro - versions XI and X2 will handle 30D RAW files directly.

-js

[EdV]

Thanks for the info and tips. I guess I am still confused. The light has not yet gone on! Given what I now have DPP (and yes I can upgrade) and PS7, I am asking myself why even bother shooting in RAW. Why not just shoot in JPEG and use PS7 as I have been.

On the other hand, I can dump DPP and PS7 and buy something like Lightroom (or whatever it is called). That would take the place of both, correct?

[Tony-S]

Thanks for the info and tips. I guess I am still confused. The light has not yet gone on! Given what I now have DPP (and yes I can upgrade) and PS7, I am asking myself why even bother shooting in RAW. Why not just shoot in JPEG and use PS7 as I have been.

Because raw is non-destructive. You can recover info from a raw image that you might not otherwise be able to do with JPEG.

On the other hand, I can dump DPP and PS7 and buy something like Lightroom (or whatever it is called). That would take the place of both, correct?

Not really. You'd probably be better off just to get PSCS3 (version 10). It will handle raw files for you.

[EdV]

Because raw is non-destructive. You can recover info from a raw image that you might not otherwise be able to do with JPEG.



Not really. You'd probably be better off just to get PSCS3 (version 10). It will handle raw files for you.

OK so if I upgrade to CS3, I don't need the DPP middle step. I can open the RAW file with CS3 and finish through to a TIFF or JPEG. Correct?

[joayne]

Lightroom would take care of all your needs and it is the best alternative for the $$

PSCS3 is expensive and has a lot of tools you will most likely never use

[sugarzebra]

Hi Ed,
I think you will learn to like RAW. Think of a RAW file as an un-editable file (and therefore non-destructive) that contains all the information collected by the sensor, kind of like a digital negative. Using the RAW conversion software (I use ACR in CS3) you can adjust the exposure & white balance which is a huge plus especially regarding exposure (neither can be done with jpegs because that data is removed by the camera before it writes the jpeg to the CF card) but because you cannot edit the RAW file you have to save it in a different format (jpegs, tiffs, psd's etc). Once that file is created you can do whatever else you want with it, knowing you still have the original RAW file. Shooting RAW takes more time in post processing but IMO the ability to adjust exposure later makes it well worth it (i.e. you can purposely underexpose but 2/3 to 1 stop to keep you shutter speed up and correct the image later).

[chauncey]

If cost is a factor, the new Elements supports ACR

[EdV]

OK, so is Lightroom a good alternative to CS3?

[joayne]

Yes, it was created expressly for photographers and has wonderful tools for RAW editing without ever having to go into PhotoShop. You will get a 50/50 poll as to the merits of Lightroom over PSCS3. Sure there is a learning curve, but it really does fit the photographers workflow and there are plenty of books now to help you navigate the beginners grasp of the program.

[Tony-S]

Lightroom would take care of all your needs and it is the best alternative for the $$

PSCS3 is expensive and has a lot of tools you will most likely never use

Does Lightroom do layers?

[Tony-S]

OK so if I upgrade to CS3, I don't need the DPP middle step. I can open the RAW file with CS3 and finish through to a TIFF or JPEG. Correct?

If you were to import your files into Photoshop, you'd want to save your files as a Photoshop document, not TIFF or JPEG or any other form, until you're ready to export it to a target of some kind (e.g., web page, DVD slideshow, etc.).

[Tony-S]

OK, so is Lightroom a good alternative to CS3?

Not really. They are complementary apps with some overlap of functions. LR is more akin to Apple's Aperture. I use Aperture and PSCS3, about half and half for a given image. Aperture for raw manipulations and PSCS3 for bit-map image processes, such as layering and sharpening.

[PhotosGuy]

PSCS3 is expensive and has a lot of tools you will most likely never use I'm still using PS7 & don't miss the upgrades. Most corrections are made before conversion & PS7 provided selections & Layer Masks when I need them.
Because raw is non-destructive. You can recover info from a raw image that you might not otherwise be able to do with JPEG.
There are some examples on page 2, post #58, (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2208481&postcount=58) that illustrate easily seen information loss in a web jpeg derived from a RAW file & one shot in the camera.
You will see even more detail if you compare large 300ppi prints.

[joayne]

AS stated, LIghtRoom is for photo processing, no it does not do layers as that is a different type of application. As stated, LightRoom is not a replacement app for PhotoShop. This is a way to effectively process RAW files. Most people use LIghtRoom in addition to other applications for further processing. LightRoom will do sharpening it is specifically a Photographers application, PhotoShop includes tools for the photographer.

As for PSCS3, you would first look at your images in the BRIDGE application, open the ones you want to look at more closely in the RAW converter, do some "Digital Darkroom Work", then open the image in PhotoShop and contine (or not) to do more processing using layers or other available tools for photo processing.

[EdV]

OK, so if I got Lightroom, I could do a lot of what I want with RAW conversion, EC adjustments, and so on. Then on the occasions when I need more advanced processing (i.e. Layers), I can dump the file into PS7 which I have. Does that work?

[orisky]

OK, so if I got Lightroom, I could do a lot of what I want with RAW conversion, EC adjustments, and so on. Then on the occasions when I need more advanced processing (i.e. Layers), I can dump the file into PS7 which I have. Does that work?

Bingo. Now you got it. I'm using LR and CS3.

[Stefan A]

Sounds like you got it Ed. I too am struggling with the same exact question in another thread. Only difference is that I am leaning toward Aperture rather than Lightroom. Originally, I was considering buying photoshop or elements and doing everything including raw in one program. But now that I have been using Aperture, I like it and I think I want to stick with it. But no, it does not do things like cloning, layers, selections. And the sharpening and noise reduction is not very good. So maybe I will get Aperture and the new version of elements when it comes out. Plus,I probably ought to try out lightroom to see if there is anything making it better than Aperture.

Stefan

[joayne]

^^ Isn't Aperture a MAC only platform? Lightroom can be used with either platform (by choosing the platform version you need)

EdV I think you've got it. You can download a trial version by signing up with Adobe. What the heck, they don't bug you with annoying e-mails and you get to trial lots of apps. Adobe.com. Good Luck and I hope you find something that you will enjoy using.

[EdV]

Ok, I think this idiot savant gets it. Lightroom and my PS7 sounds like the ticket for now. Later I might upgrade to CS3.

Thanks for all the help. Much appreciated.

[Stefan A]

Yes joayne, Aperture is mac only.

Stefan