high speed sync or overpower the sun?

[archie]

I am really struggling with capturing sharp action photos (skateboarding) in bright daylight conditions, where the dynamic range is too great, and fill flash is required. I have tried using my 30d in Tv mode, at 250th with my st-e2 and my 430ex handheld. I found that most shots suffer from motion blur, the backgrounds are really sharp but the skaters are slightly blurred.

I have been advised that the 580ex in high speed sync would achieve the results I am looking for but I seriously doubt it. If anyone could show me me sample images taken with a 580ex ,off camera on cable or trigger, in bright daylight that capture fast moving subjects, I would really appreciate it and rush out to buy one.

If anyone has an alternative I would also like to hear it. I currently have a 30d, efs 10-22mm, 24-105 L, st-e2, 430 ex, 2 x sunpak 383's, a set of modified cactus ebay triggers and a sekonik l308s meter.

[e r y k]

why dont you enable high speed sync on your 430ex?

[archie]

I have tried the high speed sync function of the 430ex and you would probably get a higher light output from lighting a match.... Seriously, the 430ex in high speed sync mode is almost undetectable in broad daylight

[Curtis N]

the 430ex in high speed sync mode is almost undetectable in broad daylightThe 580EX will be about 1 stop brighter at the same distance, in the same conditions.

[photoroebucks]

I seriously doubt you will have much luck with a 580 and High speed sync.
the faster the shutter speed the less the power the flash power.
its just not powerful enough to combat full daylight at any distance with hss
just keep the sync speed at 250th and shoot directly in to the sun.its your best chance
use manual,1/250 F10 or 11 Iso 100 ,flash full power(for daylight-flag TV mode)
yes you will have some blur,but not much,depending on the 'trick speed'

your best option is to think about a more powerful setup,the lights are the key,
the best way to up the shutter speed is to buy a hasselblad.(500 or 501cm syncs with full power at 1/500th)
or buy some lighting(the hasselblad can be had for bout 1000$ 2nd hand w 1 lense)
but its film and all manual
or
Id reccomend lumedyme 'Action" pack
or profoto(but thats way more$$$)

or check out alien bees
ive never used them but i see they are cheap, powerful and have a fast flash duration.
do you understand flash duration?
its gotta be fast for action stuff
unfortunitly for skate shots with flash,the canon is not going to give what your asking for
I hope this helps and doesnt put you off
good luck

[Jim M]

I've used my 580EX in HSS at 1,000 of a second and quicker as fill for back lit drag racing cars. Seems to work OK. I think the 430 ought to work, too. I can't imagine you are farther away from the skaters than I am from rapidly accelerating vehicles. You said you wanted fill flash rather than overwhelming the sun. You won't freeze the action at a 250th, so your choices are limited. And unless you are underexposing the ambient light and properly exposing the flash, fill light won't be obvious. That, in fact, is the whole point of fill flash - just lighten up the shadows.

[archie]

Thanks people,
I contacted someone who I know shoots skateboarding (CIRCA) and he wrote-

'... your flash duration is too slow. this is most likely the problem you're having. when using flash and using a shutter at like, 1/250, your flash acts almost like a second shutter, freezing action. to do so, the durations need to be 1/1000 (at bare minimum), it's just like shooting in regular light, understand? so to shoot flash, get fill light from it and freeze action, your flash needs to be firing at atleast 1/1000 duration.

the way i freeze action is by doubling up flashes. i currently have 3 nikon sb-28's and plan to get a fourth. right now i double up two flashes and just use one as a single. by doubling up i can set the two flashes to 1/4, which is i think 1/2100 duration for my flashes, yet get 1/2 power because i have two flashes firing at 1/4. understand? it works real well if you have time to set up.'

So, does anyone know what flash units I could mount to a flash bracket, that have a fast enough flash duration to do this? How can i tell what the flash durations of my sunpak 383's and 430ex are?

[Curtis N]

How can i tell what the flash durations of my sunpak 383's and 430ex are?Have you looked up the specifications in the instruction manuals?

[photoroebucks]

canon will not have this info re flash duration,I spent some time trying to get it from them and they do not have it.How lame is that
not sure bout sunpak try ph them.
as far as what to look at ,check the lumedyne action pack.I know is one of the highly regarded packs for price.or quantum T5d(not sure on flash duration for this one tho.
or alien bees
its annoying but you might need to spend some $
goodluck

[Curtis N]

canon will not have this info re flash duration,Here's a chunk of p. 50 of the 580EX instruction manual.

1.2 milliseconds is about 1/800 second.
That's at full power.
The duration gets shorter at lower power settings, but it's not a direct proportion.

The specs in the instruction manual for the Sunpak 383 indicate flash duration of 1/700 to 1/10,000 second.

[Jim M]

I typed a response this morning and it went off into cyberspace. I'll try again.

I shoot drag racing pictures. I can tell you that 1/250th is way too slow to stop any action and you can't overpower the sun enough to keep motion blur from being a problem with any portable flash I know of. I have used fill flash a number of times quite successfully with back lit drag cars at shutter speeds over 1/1,000 of a second. I use a 580EX, but I think your 430 would work, too. I doubt that skateboarders move significantly faster than drag racing vehicles, so I would give it a try. Put your flash on HSS. Use a shutter speed of at least 1/1,000 using TV or Manual mode. If using manual, set the aperture to the proper amount for the light or maybe a little toward under exposure. With TV, you may want to set EC to a slightly negative amount as well. I've done it using the straight exposure and slight underexposure both. However, using a lower ambient exposure will put a greater demand on your flash. Don't use any FEC unless there is some reason to do so based on the results. Fill flash should not be extremely obvious. You aren't trying to overpower the sun. You are just trying to fill in the deep shadows. Give it a try and see what happens.

As for the advice that your flash duration is too slow, I'm not buying it. The blur is from ambient light and a shutter speed that is too slow. Get the shutter speed to 1/1,000 or quicker and use HSS to fill the shadows.

[archie]

Thanks for the post Jim,
I have tried my 430 ex in high speed sync, with the camera set to manual, 500th sec and above, varied apertures to suit exposure, in broad daylight; and cant really see any improvement. All I get is correctly exposed backgrounds with underexposed subjects who have shadows that are way too underexposed. If anyone knows the trick to achieving this with a 430 I would really appreciate the input.

[Curtis N]

archie,
Pay attention to a couple things on the back of your flash unit:
First, the distance scale. After your shutter speed and aperture are set, half-press the shutter button and see if it's indicating a distance equal or greater than your subject.

Second, the flash exposure confirmation light. It lights up after each shot for a few seconds if the flash had enough power to do what it tried to do. If this light illuminates but your subject is underexposed, that's when you need to increase your FEC. If it doesn't light up, that means the flash fired full power but couldn't provide enough light.

[archie]

Hi Curtis,
Thanks for the tip. I thought if you set the flash to manual, full power, and hss - there was no more power? will modifying FEC give me more in hss?

[Curtis N]

Hi Curtis,
Thanks for the tip. I thought if you set the flash to manual, full power, and hss - there was no more power? will modifying FEC give me more in hss?No.

Sorry, I was thinking you were using E-TTL.

No confirmation light or FEC with manual flash. But you will have an indicator mark on the distance scale.

[archie]

in your knowledgeable opinion, if I were to upgrade to a 580ex, what would my effective range when using hss, at 500th, and f8? (whatever is required in broad daylight at iso 100)

[Curtis N]

My opinion isn't all that knowledgeable. ;)

Just do the math. 58 divided by 43 is about 1.35, which means the 580EX will give you about 35% more range than the 430EX, all other factors being equal.

With my 580EX II set to full power manual and zoomed to 105mm, and the camera set to 1/500 and f/8, ISO 100, the distance scale indicates 7 feet.

At 1/250 and f/11 (identical ambient exposure) it indicates 15 feet. High speed sync effectively cuts your flash range in half.

[Jim M]

How far from the skaters are you?

[archie]

I mainly shoot wide angle so 8-16 ft

[Curtis N]

I mainly shoot wide angle so 8-16 ftIf the flash head is zoomed to 24mm or 28mm then you'll need to take those numbers I posted above and cut them in half.

[Jim M]

I came home for lunch today and grabbed my camera with the 100mm macro lens I had on it, slapped on the 580EX set to ETTL, set the ISO to 400, set the dial to Tv with the shutter speed at 1/1,000, no EC, no FEC, took aim at the car with the shady side toward me, popped off a shot, the confirmation light came on, looked at the image and it looked fine, checked the range on the flash as I pointed it in the same general direction again and it said I would have been good to 13 meters under those conditions. Took it all back in the house and set everything on manual and got readings similar to Curtis's. I think it will make a huge difference if you use Tv, ETTL, and you are outside in the sunlight. Remember that you aren't trying to overpower the sun. You are just trying to open up the shadows. If all other conditions are the same - same distance, same shutter speed, same f/stop, same focal length - it will take a lot more flash power to produce an image in a dark room where the flash has to provide virtually all the light than it would outside in the sunlight where things are already pretty bright and only need a little boost. At least that's how I see it and it seems to work that way for me.

Since this wasn't very close to your conditions, I'll try again tomorrow with something closer to what you are doing and see what I get. It is possible that I'm delusional.

[archie]

Thanks Jim,
I don't think you are delusional but probably a little fanatical like me.
I really appreciate your input thus far but if you are willing to do some more test shots it would be good to try shooting someone standing still in broad daylight, moving their arms erratically. A wider angle lens would also be good.

[Jim M]

Thanks Jim,
I don't think you are delusional but probably a little fanatical like me.
I really appreciate your input thus far but if you are willing to do some more test shots it would be good to try shooting someone standing still in broad daylight, moving their arms erratically. A wider angle lens would also be good.
It's cloudy and dismal today and my model (AKA wife) had to work, so the test is delayed. I tried to find a file photo that might substitute, but I didn't find a really sunny day one. I did find a cloudy one, although it isn't great art. This was shot with a 50mm on a 30D, Tv, 1/800, F/5.6, ISO 400, HSS flash, no FEC and no EC. I wasn't really trying to open up the shadows as much as trying to control the glaring highlights that were blowing out. It isn't 1/1,000 either, but it was at least HSS from about the distance you would be working with. In the original, uncompressed image you can see a very tiny bit of subject motion shadowing things, but you can't in this Save for the Web version. A little faster shutter speed would probably have fixed that.

It also occurs to me that panning with the skater will help freeze the action as well. An unsharp background isn't a bad thing.

[photoroebucks]

Jim M
I cant see how you think your flash has lit this exposure
look at the red tent behind the bike
It has the same lighting as the biker and theres no way your flash has lit this at 1/800
I think your confusing your natural exposure with the limits of hss
That is just my opinion:)

[René Damkot]

Jim M
I cant see how you think your flash has lit this exposure
look at the red tent behind the bike

Look at the shadow just outlining the underside of the arm (on the motorjacket), and the way the neck (under the helmet) is lit... Fill flash allright.

[Jim M]

Yes, this is absolutely fill flash. I was not trying to make the flash create more exposure on the subject than on the background. I was just trying to even out the exposure on the motorcyclist and actually keep the flash from looking obvious. My understanding is that the OP was looking for the same.

[archie]

Your understanding is correct Jim. But in full bright daylight the dynamic range between the shadows and highlights is far greater.

[Jim M]

Your understanding is correct Jim. But in full bright daylight the dynamic range between the shadows and highlights is far greater.
This might be closer to what you are after. Shot Tv at 1/1000, f/8, ISO 400, HSS, EC -1/3, FEC 0, 85mm lens. Again, my objective was to even out the light. In this case, the sides of the cars were blowing out rather badly, so I used a base exposure that was just a tad low and allowed the flash to light up the front of the car, which was in shadow. The lens was longer than you would use, but the distance from the flash to the subject was greater too, so it would probably have had similar power requirements.

[Jim M]

It was sunny at lunch today, but I couldn't get home. You will probably have an opportunity to shoot some tests before I do now. That is probably a better idea, actually. That way it is completely apples to apples - same flash, same lens, same camera. You will also be able to see if you are getting exactly the effect you are after and adjust things until you do.

[archie]

Thanks Jim,
I will be able to try a few things with my 430 ex and two sunpak 383's but I have not been able to source a 580ex to test yet so I will just have to wait and see.
Cheers

[Jim M]

Try the 430EX with high speed sync. I don't think the 383's will perform HSS so you will be restricted to 1/250 sec, which we know won't freeze the action. The only way you will freeze action in sunlight with the normal sync speed is with a flash that can peel paint off the walls while overpowering the sun and that isn't a 580 EX either.

Have you considered using the blur to imply motion? Underexpose the ambient light some and use second curtain flash at the regular sync speed and exposure. That way there will be streaking, but it will appear to be behind the skater.

[archie]

Cheers Jim,
That is another thing I can try this weekend (weather permitting)

[Inspired Photography]

Thanks people,
I contacted someone who I know shoots skateboarding (CIRCA) and he wrote-

'... your flash duration is too slow. this is most likely the problem you're having. when using flash and using a shutter at like, 1/250, your flash acts almost like a second shutter, freezing action. to do so, the durations need to be 1/1000 (at bare minimum), it's just like shooting in regular light, understand? so to shoot flash, get fill light from it and freeze action, your flash needs to be firing at atleast 1/1000 duration.

While this is 100% technically correct, blaming it for the cause of your motion blur is absolute crap.

You are fill flashing, not shooting under flash 2-stops brighter than the sun and exposing accordingly.

Consider this:
Scenario 1:
You are shooting at night or very late afternoon. Your camera meters ambient at 1/125th f8. You setup your flash to illuminate your subject at f16 and setup your camera accordingly.

Scenario 2:
You are shooting in mid-sunlight. Your camera meters ambient at 1/125th f16. You setup your flash to illuminate your subject at f16 as you only want to fill the shadows and take out some of the harsh contrast of the sun.

NOW:
Scenario 1: The images come out sharp because the ambient light has some, but little effect on your subject because you have underexposed ambient by 2 stops so flash is what is illuminating most of your properly exposed image.
Scenario 2: Your images come out with far too much motion blur because while your flash is firing, you have so much ambient light entering for that 1/125th of a second that flash duration means about as much as a nikon lens with a canon body.

Flash duration only comes into play when it is your PRIMARY light source. A 430EX (nor a 550EX for that matter) are going to really do this for you in bright sun. Try shooting late afternoon and setting your flash as your primary source.

The guy who said your flash duration is the cause is either a complete moron, or you failed to tell him your exact shooting scenario.

Now please visualise lots of smiley faces throughout this post. Feel free to ask questions :D

Rob

[archie]

Hi Shooter Boy,

Thanks for your input. I probably did not explain myself well enough at all, and/or the crux of my request was diluted in this lengthy thread. The main reason for my initial post was I was contracted to shoot a skate/bmx comp where I had no choice about the time of day the photos were taken, nor did I have time to set up three flashes for each shot (key,fill and hair light). The format for the comp was a four man, jam in a park as large as your average rugby league field, so I had to shoot quickly and with as much auto assistance as possible. It was a very bright blue sky day, on a very reflective surface and every photo op meant standing in the line of another skater. I was simply trying to work out the best way to shoot in these trying conditions.

I had contacted Circa in a PM, and I related his response to a slightly different situation, to this thread. I should not have quoted him because I probably phrased his response out of context due to my lack of understanding.