Black and white "film" camera

[Ski-man]

I know this is a digital forum but i really value the opinions and knowledge on photography that comes from all you guys.

Id like to experiment with Black and White on a film camera. (yes .. i said f... fff.. ffffffilm) ;)

Which Canon film camera would you recommend for doing this considering that i dont want to spend too much money and the item would more than likely be a 2nd hand unit.

Obviouisly, id like the film camera to take the same lenses i use on my 10D. I know of an EOS500 with 28-80 & 75-300 Lenses for $350AU. Is that a decent camera and could i use the lenses from it on my 10D ?

Any advice or suggestions, as always, are very much appreciated.

Take it easy guys :D

[velvetjones]

It's ok ski-man, there are actually a lot of folks here that use the forum that still use film.....the same concepts in the end.

Any EOS camera will take your lenses.....the cheapest being the Rebel Series. If you want something very much like your 10D...get an Elan 7 or the Elan 7N......they should be about $250 for the body....I think.

I have the Elan 7....I am a big fan. :D

[Ski-man]

It's ok ski-man, there are actually a lot of folks here that use the forum that still use film.....the same concepts in the end.

Any EOS camera will take your lenses.....the cheapest being the Rebel Series. If you want something very much like your 10D...get an Elan 7 or the Elan 7N......they should be about $250 for the body....I think.

I have the Elan 7....I am a big fan. :D


Nice one - thanks velvet. What makes it a good B&W camera ? Can you recommend any reading (forums, sites etc) for beginners in B&W photography ?

[Illegally_Alive]

Here's a GREAT B&W publication!
http://www.lenswork.com/
You can download the current issue free, and see what I'm talking about.

While they don't really have that many tips (if any at all) they do have some amazing photos.

[Mark Kemp]

On the other hand,

You could try a film camera that is very unlike your EOS digital models. This would give you a different view of photography.

You can pick up all sorts of old manual cameras for very little money.

I paid about £15 ($30) for an old Zeiss IKon that takes 6*9cm negatives. It has no autofocus (in fact you have to estimate range) no meter (you need a separate light meter) and the shutter is basically clockwork. It is such a different experience though that its quite enjoyable.

You don't need to go that far, but it could be fun to try something a bit different.

[imagesense]

What makes it a good B&W camera ?


The eye of the person behind it.


Oh, and also it really helps to have a camera with full manual control that is easy to work with. Your controls should be quick and easy to set without too many things to press, turn, or adjust to obtain full manual control.
B&W Rules! Enjoy.

Lou

[toddb]

I've been thinking of getting a film body to complement my 10D as well. I think the Canon Elan 7N (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=319779&is=USA) would be a great addition. I know I wouldn't use it nearly as much as the 10D, but I'd love to experiement with different films. Not only that, but I still think film has better quality over all then digital (until the next 1Ds but I won't be able to afford that for a while)...so in the mean time, I'd like to get shots of my 2 year old down on some high quality film for safe keeping....just incase. Having used the DSLR, I think I'm ready to move to film. If I would have went the other way around I would have had to drop the hobbie because of film cost and experimentation would have been too great...but I'm ready now I think.

[Alexandre Gabriel]

Try the Elan 7 (EOS 30 outside of EUA and Japan). You won't regret and it will be a nice backup for your future DSLR. :wink:
Well, this is my plan, actually :P

[toddb]

You might come back to digital though for B&W stuff. I've found some awsome ways to convert digital images with my 10D and Photoshop CS. (note that both samples were just candid shots so they probably not the samples)

Take a look at this pink flower....when changed to grey scale it was very flat looking....but by just selecting the blue channel, it popped!!

http://www.toddburke.net/gallery/web/Rose.jpg

Here is a sample of a B&W conversion by converting the image to LAB color, then only selecting the luminosity channel...convert to greyscale, then back to RGB. Then you dublicate the layer and change the layer type to "mutliply" and adust the opacity to your liking. It's amazing. This is my favorite B&W convertions.

http://www.toddburke.net/gallery/web/CRW_8464_Jen_Jas_bw_lighting.jpg

I have a question for you, are you don't B&W in film so you can develope the pictures yourself too? Because that can be pretty fun too.

[psk4363]

Have you considered a second-hand EOS 1 or even perhaps the 1n? Superb camera(s) which will work with your current set-up and very common on such as E-Bay.

Barry

[toddb]

This is a side note, but I was looking at some of the magazines people like in another thead here and came across this B&W beginners guide.

http://www.photographymonthly.com/samples/ACF1F.pdf

[velvetjones]

The camera you use probably won't matter all that much for getting good black and white shots....depending on what you whant to do. Look into some good Black and White films, such as Kodak T-Max, Fuji Neopan and Ilford's line of B&W. I personally try to avoid the C-41 films, but some people like them.

I would just look into getting a Elan because it will fit all of your lens (-18-55mm) and other equipment and will have most all of the features that your 10D has.

[boBquincy]

I kept one of my older SLRs and a few lenses, to use for B&W. Once I found how well the D30 (and then the 10D) do B&W I have not picked up the film camera since.

I miss the darkroom sometimes (it just smells like photography) but my digital results are so good that I doubt I will use film again. It's also nice to have a multitude of 'filters' at your disposal, via Photoshop!


boB

[Ski-man]

Thanks for all the great tips guys. The Elan 7 (EOS30) is looking quite appealing as an eBay option. Im very interested in doing some darkroom work. Ive never done any but im told that once i start, ill be hooked for life. Its a hard choice for me as im still a beginner and im hungry for alot of other gear and lenses as well. If i like the darkroom that much, there may even be a consideration to set one up in the garage workshop ;)

Thanks heaps for the links - especially the Lenswork one. :) Hopefully, i can find an agent here in Aus that can get them in for me.

Ive been told by several people that digital B&W doesnt have anywhere near the level of tonal range as decent B&W film has. I cant attest to this myself yet as i havent closely compared the two. Is it that obvious ? Is the quality of the B&W film image that much better ?

[tpinchback]

I picked up an elan 7 off the FM forums for only $150 last week.

[DocFrankenstein]

You might come back to digital though for B&W stuff. I've found some awsome ways to convert digital images with my 10D and Photoshop CS. (note that both samples were just candid shots so they probably not the samples)

Take a look at this pink flower....when changed to grey scale it was very flat looking....but by just selecting the blue channel, it popped!!
I second that. PS gives you a lot of control and adjustments over the final bw image, you control the result and it is much easier to create dramatic photograph in the end.

[tarves57]

Nice one - thanks velvet. What makes it a good B&W camera ? Can you recommend any reading (forums, sites etc) for beginners in B&W photography ?

Not sure if you get this magazine in Australia, but there is a VERY good 32 page article on B&W photography in the September issue of Photography Monthly. This deals with both film and digital.

This is their site:
http://www.photographymonthly.com/

I had stopped buying camera magazines because they were costing me a fortune, but I decided to subscribe to this one. You seem to get quite a lot of reading for your money.

I suppose I should add I am in no way connected to them, apart from my subscription!

Susan

[ShootTechPan]

On the other hand,

You could try a film camera that is very unlike your EOS digital models. This would give you a different view of photography.

You can pick up all sorts of old manual cameras for very little money.

I paid about £15 ($30) for an old Zeiss IKon that takes 6*9cm negatives. It has no autofocus (in fact you have to estimate range) no meter (you need a separate light meter) and the shutter is basically clockwork. It is such a different experience though that its quite enjoyable.

You don't need to go that far, but it could be fun to try something a bit different.

I totally agree with trying something different. Fabulous camera... I've used one extensively. Folds into a small paperback book size but offers (relatively) large negative size. A Rolliflex or Rollicord is also a good choice, and much easier to use. Put in some good b&w film and the quality will make those 6 and 8 megapixel cameras look like children's toys :)

(If you're interested in buying one, the Zeiss Ikon Ercona (built 1942) is the one I used. Check to make sure that the bellows are free of holes. Lens isn't well coated, so don't point it into the sun (or moon).)

[boBquincy]

>Ive been told by several people that digital B&W doesnt have anywhere >near the level of tonal range as decent B&W film has. I cant attest to this >myself yet as i havent closely compared the two. Is it that obvious ? Is the >quality of the B&W film image that much better ?


Digital color does not have anywhere near the range of color negative film so it's a safe bet to say digital B&W (which is really digital color) does not have the range of B&W film.

However... A raw file from a Canon SLR has a range of 12 bits (but not 12 stops), and by taking two different exposures and merging them a digital file can have a range of 16 bits, easily more than film.

A print (B&W or color) has a range of 200:1 at best, which is less than 8 bits, and a print is probably the final goal.

So is B&W film 'better' than digital? Not really, just different.


boB

[CyberDyneSystems]

Film?

What is this "Film" you speak of?

[boBquincy]

I think it's something you get when you don't brush your teeth well... ;)

[Mark Kemp]

Its what we used to use before papyrus and stone tablets