non profit org requesting usage of my photos

[Yella Fella]

Hi guys, need a bit of advice here, i did a shoot for the city showcase earlier this year and one of the artists Suki has contacted me stating that another non profit org is requesting hi res images of my pics.

Now i mentioned in what context will the pics be used, that and i didnt want to give my copyright away with regards to this. But being a non profit org, i didnt really want to charge them a fee; i suggested in return a press pass to take pics of their up and coming event next year.

Pics are on here http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=26947&l=6d95b&id=551860596

Any advice appreciated.

Email is as follows...

Hi Ed,

Thank you for your email.

Chinatown Arts Space is a non profit-making arts organisation to promote East Asian arts in the UK and we are London based. We aim to bring together East Asian artists and support the EA arts community grow by starting to organise arts projects since 2005 with support from Westminster City Council. Our Board of Director was formed in November 2006 and CAS was registered as Limited Company by Guarantee in January 2007. CAS has just recently been granted a three years (2007-2010) funding by Westminster City Council in April this year. With this support from WCC, it has secured the three part time staff team who need to raise fund to organise various projects.

We have received several funding to organise our FC Festival, in which, Kevin and Suki will be involved and have arts exchange with Beijing hip hop crew Dragon Tongue Squad in February 07 and give two performances at the Linbury Studio Theatre on 21st and 22nd Feb. We also have other four programmes in the Festival and a festival programme has been attached for your info.

Photos of Kevin and Suki's will be used basically to promote their programme in Feb, in various channels such as our festival brochure, poster and leaflet for their programme, for British and Chinese press, in ROH2's publication which will be distributed to their database, and ROH's web site, China in London brochure, CHINA NOW web site, etc. All these channels, I would say, they are all non profit-making and arts based bodies, with the good will to promote arts, in particular, to help Chinese/East Asian arts grow in the UK.

Therefore, I will seek your understanding and support to grant us the free copy right for using Kevin and Suki's photos. Let me know what you think or if you need more information from me.

Thank you very much for making this contact and I look forward to hearing from you soon. You are most welcome to contact me if you would like to have a conversation.

[TTk]

Thay are non profit organisation NOT you if thay want thay buy, Non proft org' means any profit they make go's back into the organisation that way no tax is paid. You took the photos you want the money..

[Gary_Evans]

I've scoured my letterhead and found a VAT number but not a Registered Charity Number. They may be "non-profit", but you ......................??

[stathunter]

Agreed with Gary--- you should not be non profit. There are true organizations that are heroic and doing the Lords work and truly non profit. There are others---one that comes to mind is BCBS --Blue Cross Blue Shield Insurance---here in Michigan that is a non profit company---that makes HUGE profits--and their Board of Directors are 7 figure earners----their non profit status in my opinion is a very creative way to be corrupt---------------sorry to ramble.

[cdifoto]

Non-profit doesn't mean non-income generating. If the CEOs, organizers, bookkeepers, etc get paid, so can you.

[cdifoto]

Therefore, I will seek your understanding and support to grant us the free copy right for using Kevin and Suki's photos.

Stop the press. Hell no. Major buzz words here. "Copy right" isn't "usage right." If they said "please grant us usage rights" I'd think about it. When they start asking for the copy right, then I say NOPE!

[Robert16]

I wonder if the guy who wrote to you is getting paid. I'm all for charity but if he/she is getting paid - you should too!

[TTk]

So many photographers have lost copyright and money this way and then found there photos all over the place earning the person they gave the copyright to a lot of money..

[sfaust]

I wonder if the guy who wrote to you is getting paid. I'm all for charity but if he/she is getting paid - you should too!

Thats what I use as a yardstick. If everyone else on the project is getting paid, I'll give them a discount if I agree with their cause, but I don't want to be the only 'charity case' working on the project ;) Only when everyone else is volunteering their time would I consider doing something as a volunteer without pay.

If they try the whole hard sale, just side step it by saying you 'll consider a steeper discount, and ask how much of a discount their brochure printer, office supplies store, insurance provider, etc, is giving them and you'll try to match that. There is no way they can see they are getting all that for free, and makes it hard to argue that you should be the only vendor getting no pay.

[rhys]

My response... "in God we trust. Others pay cash".

Promises are cheap and seldom fulfilled. I would never give anything away for a promise.

[S.Horton]

Non-profits have money and budgets.

Time is on your side, as they approach a deadline but you do not.

I'd suggest this course:
1. E-mail which says "Thank you for your interest. Let me think about this and get back to you."
2. See if they ever follow that up. If they do, you might have a sale, if not, they were fishing
3. If they do ask again, then offer a license agreement to sign, with a fee stated

[Yella Fella]

I agree with you guys, I don't believe anything in this life is free...

It does seem like a good opportunity as an oriental photographer to tap in to the oriental music area. Just the way of approaching it

[condyk]

i now work in the not for profit field. This organisation gets grant aid and they have paid staff. They will have a budget for their press and promotional activities. If they don't pay you they will save the money and be able to spend it elsewhere. So, on one level you can make them a donation if you feel like it. However, that does not include transfer of copyright in my book. Personally, having done work for non-profits, i would just decide how much I like them. i would either give free, or tell them I will charge 50%. Small time performers will never generate you a big income from a copyright'd image so what are you actually giving away? One thing to consider is charities often use a limited set of people because they don't have a culture of tendering/outsourcing. Collaborate and offer a 'fair' deal and you could find you get some good business in return. You might also ask for a brochure advert in lieu of any reduction in fee you offer.

[Yella Fella]

how do you stop them from taking your copyright anyways? even if i charge for transfer of hi res images, doesnt stop them from selling it on surely?

[Yella Fella]

just to follow up... anyone?

[RockSlut]

You need to grant them a license (preferably non-exclusive license) to use the images. Its kind of like renting the images out. You still own the images and have the right to exploit them for your own purposes. Non exclusive license means that you can rent the same images out to different clients at the same time.

You might want to confirm the above with the relevant UK authority. I'm not a lawyer, let alone a UK copyright lawyer.

edit: When a client requests copyright (whether they understand what they are asking or not) is basically asking you to sell them all rights to and ownership of the images.

[jpwone]

Ed,

you sell usage not rights. So, if they want to use it on their web site you specify this usage, the scope of usage, the time period of usage and the price for this usage. You do this for each usage.

If they want unlimited usage you specify this and again the time period of usage and the cost of usage. By selling usage you retain your copyright and also control the exclusivity of any licence you grant.

In practice, by selling (or giving) a licence which you specify has no territorial limits, no time limits, covers exclusivity and is allowed for any media (internet, press etc.) they will have exactly the same usage as if they owned copyright but the copyright remains with you. At this point they have the usage they want and you still retain copyright.

If you surrender copyright you cannot use the image yourself (or even keep a copy of it) without a licence agreement from the new image owner.

I had a recent discussion (via email) with English Heritage about a competition they were running. By entering the competition you gave English Heritage the copyright. What this means is that everybody who entered lost all rights to their images and if applied fully could not keep a copy of the image themselves without getting a licence from English Heritage. English Heritage took the view that this made administration simpler for themselves. To myself it was a copyright grab. I pointed them to the BBC's terms for similar competitions and photograph submission. The BBC basically wants a royalty free non-exclusive licence. Simple to administer and the photographer retains the copyright.

I offer a 20% discount (sometimes greater if I feel strongly about the cause) to registered charities but I never give away copyright and and I never give usage for free. Bottom line is, they don't go into the local stationery supplier and ask for a couple of boxes of paper for free because they are a charity so why should they expect you to give them your product for free. I also remind myself that charity is an industry with a lot of very well paid people involved. Why should they expect to get paid for their skill and time and not expect that you should too?

My two cents - which is probably what it is worth :-)

John

[PhotosGuy]

Here I'd tell them to pay my normal rate, & I'll write them a (tax deductible) check for my donation.

[condyk]

good advice above ... you could try the British Libary web site as they are well resourced to provide intellectual property, trademark, copyright and related info. to small businesses and such. They have an info line and run free workshops. Maybe you could hop off at Euston one day and go chat to them ;-) before doing xmas shopping or given them a call.

[Yella Fella]

Ed,

you sell usage not rights. So, if they want to use it on their web site you specify this usage, the scope of usage, the time period of usage and the price for this usage. You do this for each usage.

If they want unlimited usage you specify this and again the time period of usage and the cost of usage. By selling usage you retain your copyright and also control the exclusivity of any licence you grant.

In practice, by selling (or giving) a licence which you specify has no territorial limits, no time limits, covers exclusivity and is allowed for any media (internet, press etc.) they will have exactly the same usage as if they owned copyright but the copyright remains with you. At this point they have the usage they want and you still retain copyright.

If you surrender copyright you cannot use the image yourself (or even keep a copy of it) without a licence agreement from the new image owner.

I had a recent discussion (via email) with English Heritage about a competition they were running. By entering the competition you gave English Heritage the copyright. What this means is that everybody who entered lost all rights to their images and if applied fully could not keep a copy of the image themselves without getting a licence from English Heritage. English Heritage took the view that this made administration simpler for themselves. To myself it was a copyright grab. I pointed them to the BBC's terms for similar competitions and photograph submission. The BBC basically wants a royalty free non-exclusive licence. Simple to administer and the photographer retains the copyright.

I offer a 20% discount (sometimes greater if I feel strongly about the cause) to registered charities but I never give away copyright and and I never give usage for free. Bottom line is, they don't go into the local stationery supplier and ask for a couple of boxes of paper for free because they are a charity so why should they expect you to give them your product for free. I also remind myself that charity is an industry with a lot of very well paid people involved. Why should they expect to get paid for their skill and time and not expect that you should too?

My two cents - which is probably what it is worth :-)

John

Hi John, thanks for the big write, and to everyone else who has participated and looked, thanks.

Just to clarify (as not done this before)... if I was to charge for usage rights, I assume you just give full hi res images with no copyright tags etc on the pic other than in EXIF right?

Any idea on the light of how much a charge should be for said publication?

[sfaust]

Always put your copyright information in the metadata. This allows anyone who has possession of the image file with the metadata intact to find you via that information. So yea, I would provide the high resolution images, with metadata intact, and a brief but to the point written agreement of what usage rights are granted. Don't worry about what you aren't granting, but only list what you are granting, and a statement that all other rights are reserved by the photographer.

[Yella Fella]

what is the usual rate of charge for this kind of usage? any ideas? Im UK based.

[jpwone]

Ed
I use Photoshelter to host images for sale/licence. http://www.photoshelter.com

There is a very good pricing module built in which I believe is available in their free package. Just set up a Photoshelter Starter account (free) and upload a couple of images. Once you have an image or two in place you can play with the pricing module.

Price each usage separately ie. specify what you are licensing and the price for each usage.

Hope this helps

[Yella Fella]

thanks John, I will have to look into that...

all right guys, i have an update. I just had a word with the lady who i have been liaising with at CAS with regards to the usage rights. I been told the images will be used as part of a music programme brochure that will be used/circulated for free as promotion with prints up to 50000. This will also include usage of the pics in their flyers and posters for promotion for the artists. However, she mentioned that the press will be involved and they do have a private but open area for the press to download these said use images for their production. I'm not sure if anyone has come across this kind of usage?

On a side note, I have been told by May that the artists i have took, they have directed her to my web site in which she has grabbed a few images from off my blog. However, she has passed these on to the Opera House in which they have used in one of their free publications. This is technically an infringment of copyright surely? Or is that known as using without permission? Any advice is appreciate in how to persue this? Especially from those who have been and know the photography game. Thanks

[sando]

Sue the bastards. :D

On a side note, since our telephone convo, want me to ring her, saying that Im your solicitor?

[Yella Fella]

lol if only sando! anyways more news...

i have found the pic they have taken from my site as shown here

http://esales.roh.org.uk/tickets/production.aspx?pid=4513

and on my site http://blog.edwardlui.com/2007/07/07/kev-suki-music-video-shoot/

[bigjon0107]

send them a bill for the usage....but give them the opportunity to remove it since you have not sent a warning.

[pos]

I bet the artist don't give their art away for free. Tell them sorry but i am not a nonprofit photographer. pos

[marcus769]

If you're making money with your photography and are technically a business, you could "dontate" this service and write it off.. I'm not sure if this is even an option for you, but its surely something to think about! I think you could value your donation as whatever you'd like. (obviously dont be outrageous), Am I way outta line by saying this? If it doesn't apply to you, sorry I am talking about nonsense!

[sfaust]

If he donated his services, the only thing he could actually deduct is his tangible expenses. Ie, if shot for 12 days, and his only expense was the cost of 2 CD's to burn the images onto, thats all he can claim. You can't claim your time as a deduction. If it wasn't the case, I'm sure we could all see how easily it would be abused :)

The best way to claim the real costs would be to perform the services as you would normally, bill them for it, receive their payment, then make a donation to the organization in any amount you wish.

[jbimages]

lol if only sando! anyways more news...

i have found the pic they have taken from my site as shown here

http://esales.roh.org.uk/tickets/production.aspx?pid=4513

and on my site http://blog.edwardlui.com/2007/07/07/kev-suki-music-video-shoot/

Not only have they taken the image, they have also removed your name from the image in the bit of vertical strip left after the crop.

I would be sending the Royal Opera House an invoice for a web site licence for the image. I would also suggest you fill in the IPTC metadata fields and leave don't strip the metadata when you post the images.

[ChrisRabior]

I had this happen to me before. Wish I would have been smarter with handling it.

You took the pictures, they saw and liked the work and want to use it for their organization. They approached you with a request, you should reply with your standard prices. If they say no, then it wasn't meant to be. Chances are, they're going to want to haggle with you. Judging by your reaction to dealing with a non-profit, this is probably what you want in the first place.

Best case scenario, you get paid your typical charges.
Likely case, you give them a discounted rate, but get future access in return.
Worst case, no sale.. and in reality, you'll be no different than you are right now from it.

Treat it like it is: just business.

In terms of them using your image without your consent, you should definitely get in touch with someone there and voice your opinion about it. With the massive exposure, I think I would probably send them an image WITH my copyright and inform them that they either replaced the one they put up without the info, or just take it down all together, or let you know where to sent the invoice for usage.

[DizzyV6P]

This posted in another thread, but in case you missed it....
Watch it, and insert "Photographer" instead of Writer

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE

Got it?!

To add to Chris's comment...I would send them an invoice for your full going rate...personally, I wouldn't bother sending them another "original" image. These production companies know FULL WELL what they are doing and they get away with it 90% of the time because most folks won't raise a fuss. I take a lot of import tuning car show pics and have found many occasions where companies will take my photos from my car site and try to use it in their advertisements. Those photos quickly get pulled once they receive my cease and desist letter as well as a bill for the photos they used. Yes, it helps that I"m an attorney as well...but unless more photographers protect their rights, these big companies...nonprofit or not will always try to steal your WORK.

[Mike R]

If it is a legit charity, and one you strongly believe in, Give them the shot and ask for a receipt for tax reasons. Otherwise charge them.

[sfaust]

If it is a legit charity, and one you strongly believe in, Give them the shot and ask for a receipt for tax reasons. Otherwise charge them.

The problem is the photographer can't write off anything for taxes other than his actual expenses. If he sends it to them on a CD, thats about .69 cents plus postage :( He can't write off his time, usage fees, etc.

I would send them an invoice for your full going rate...personally, I wouldn't bother sending ....

All the IP attorneys I've heard from to date all are emphatically against sending an invoice to the client. They state that should the photographer decide at some point to take legal action, the invoice works against the photographer by defining a value on the images, where the courts could value the work at higher rates. Just another opinion and food for thought.

[Yella Fella]

Guys, whats with this IPTC metadata fields? I have selected author and copyright sections in lightroom so upon checking properties of an image, it shows up with my name now, is this correctly set? My details have been removed as i move my image into a copyright tag layer in PS before exporting it back out... grrrr.

On a sub note, I have won this current case with them... they have apologised to me and have agreed to pay my rates on this. In return, on their next article they are putting a special credit for my as a photographer in their thanks section (normally they dont credit photographers). On a sub note, they are also wanting to work with me to collaborate and help shoot the gigs they have set next year.

I know im quite new to the whole music/gigs part of the photography but I reckon it be a nice break for me and would split up the wedding part of the year nicely.

[sfaust]

If you save the image out of Photoshop using the "Save for web" command, it will strip off the metadata. Make sure you use the "Save as" command, and everything should remain intact.

Glad to hear things worked out well for you!

[ryant35]

I didn't read everybody's posts, but non profit doesn't mean they don't pay their own employees.

Thats the problem with most charities, some of the money given goes to payroll & other costs.

[jbimages]

My details have been removed as i move my image into a copyright tag layer in PS before exporting it back out... grrrr.


Would you explain exactly what you are doing


On a sub note, I have won this current case with them... they have apologised to me and have agreed to pay my rates on this. In return, on their next article they are putting a special credit for my as a photographer in their thanks section (normally they dont credit photographers). On a sub note, they are also wanting to work with me to collaborate and help shoot the gigs they have set next year.

I know im quite new to the whole music/gigs part of the photography but I reckon it be a nice break for me and would split up the wedding part of the year nicely.

Good to hear it worked out for you.

When you list the rights granted on your invoice, specify your Copyright Credit with the agreed media usage,

[Yella Fella]

Would you explain exactly what you are doing

I have a set PSD file in PS with my copyright tag, all I normally do is when I input in a jpg, I just copy the jpg and import it into the PSD. If i save it like normal, it tends to save some sort of default EXIF data... saying that, I think that might be the case as i usually run a batch via an automated script. Maybe its only picking up the first initial EXIF data from the first jpg imported in?

[LBaldwin]

Contracts!!

Here is a great sohttp://www.epuk.org/

Les

[jbimages]

I have a set PSD file in PS with my copyright tag, all I normally do is when I input in a jpg, I just copy the jpg and import it into the PSD. If i save it like normal, it tends to save some sort of default EXIF data... saying that, I think that might be the case as i usually run a batch via an automated script. Maybe its only picking up the first initial EXIF data from the first jpg imported in?


My understanding is that the original EXIF and IPTC data is lost when you copy an image and paste it into a new file. This also happens with a lot of border and frame actions.
I use lightroom to create the jpg for export. If I round trip to photoshop I can replace any missing IPTC data with a lightroom preset.

[S.Horton]

Guys, whats with this IPTC metadata fields? I have selected author and copyright sections in lightroom so upon checking properties of an image, it shows up with my name now, is this correctly set? My details have been removed as i move my image into a copyright tag layer in PS before exporting it back out... grrrr.

On a sub note, I have won this current case with them... they have apologised to me and have agreed to pay my rates on this. In return, on their next article they are putting a special credit for my as a photographer in their thanks section (normally they dont credit photographers). On a sub note, they are also wanting to work with me to collaborate and help shoot the gigs they have set next year.

I know im quite new to the whole music/gigs part of the photography but I reckon it be a nice break for me and would split up the wedding part of the year nicely.

Great ending there! Converted to a client -- congratulations!!!

[kevie]

charge them what ever your rates are normally....most non profits are pretty well off if they have the right staff working for them to find grants.....so dont think that you should have to be charitable unless you need some form of tax write off.....which i believe you can set a value on your work and get a receipt showing your donation value/amount.