Being told at High school basketball game to turn off my camera!!

[DD974]

Here's a little history...I've been running my business here in NW Pennsylvania now for 2-3 years pretty heavilly, as much as I can since I have a fulltime job. I started out doing sports teams and added my graphics background to the mix and found that parents really love what I have to offer.

FF to tonight, my son is in his first JV basketball game and the past two seasons I've done the photos for the opposing team's basketball cheerleaders and before I even approached the advisor I spoke to the AD and he said to drop off some credentials at the school office. I wrote a cover letter to the principal, stated why I was writing and included examples of my work, binded it and everything!!!!. I dropped it of in 2005 at the school office, handing it over to an office employee and she said she'd see to it that the principal got it. I said to the AD, "am I stepping on another photographer's toes here", "is this why your harassing me about this", he said "I could care less who you photograph".

A little small town background...in the past they've used a well known photographer who's been in the town for over 20 years, and also a husband and wife duo that call themselves photographers but lack any talent at all....I saw one half of this duo tonight (and who knows what I do) at this game and I think this person tipped or said something to these "educators" to get their panties all wadded up.

Earlier today I spoke to the cheerleader advisor and she said I could drop off the forms since I'd be there anyway for my son'e game. I took photos during most of the JV game and during a TO I went over to the ticket window and asked the lady to hold the forms for me until I found the cheer advisor. Just as I did this the AD, who was standing at the window, and who I spoke to two years earlier and told me to jump thru hoops, as I did, said "you just can't come in here and take pictures without going through the office", and "you can't come in here and take pictures of our players", I told him I was there as a parent because my son was on the other team. We then walked over to the principal, who I addressed the cover to two years earlier, said he never saw any book from me and didn't know me.

Five minutes later I went over to the principal and handed him my business card and told him he could cross reference it with my credentials I gave to the office. Five minutes after that he came up behind me and told me to turn off the camera until he verified what I was telling him. I replied "I'm turning off this camera because I'm not breaking any laws and I'm protected by the constitution"...and I also told him it was ludicrous to even suggest making me turn off my camera, he threatened to throw me out. I even showed him on the LCD the photos, they were all of the team my son was playing on. I kept shooting anyway and eventually I went to the other entrance to the gym a few moments later and the Principal was talking to the AD about this and also the Superintendant (who I know on a first name basis) spotted me behind the principal and I put up my hands...like..."come on...you know me...this is ridiculaously be blown out of proportion...I'm here on a personal basis, my son is on the JV team" ya know what he said next........he said "is he playing now" (which at that time he was on the bench)...then he went onto say....

Among several words all I caught was (and this put me through the roof) "you know I see you here sneaking around with your camera and taking our photos"....I stopped him abruptly and said "where is that coming from, how can you draw that twisted conclusion"...and he just said I won't get into this any further. Later on during the Varsity game I walked over beside him and out my camera during the second half because my team was on the near end where I could better get positioned. He never said a word about me having the camera out and I wasn't really concerned either.

This whole episode is absolutely ridiculaous and I'm about fit to be tied right now....I spoke to the Cheer advisor between games and she said she has always gotten the photographer of her choice and never knew she had to ask the people in the school office.

Sorry I'm so winded here, but I'm seriously thinking of writing a letter to the editor of our newspaper and include much of what I'm saying here or maybe even contact the newspaper and let them know what this school tried to pull over, perhaps even spurring a lengthy story to be written.

Unfortunately, I don't think I can find a copy of the document I gave to the school two years ago, I moved to a new home recently and am still looking through computer files.

Can someone please give me some good advice about this or suggest what I should do!!

[totalphoto]

Bring 8 or 10 of your best friends with cameras to shoot the next game!

[liza]

It's a public venue. They can't restrict you in any way unless you're interfering with the game. I do think you may have ruffled some feathers when you used the word "harassing." Keep in mind that you get more flies with honey than with vinegar.

[Curtis N]

Forget the newspaper. Few people will care.

Understand that the school has the right and responsibility to make rules and enforce them for lots of reasons.

Understand also that the school may have some exclusive contract with a photographer (generally these involve kicking back a certain percentage of sales to the school).

But the school also has a responsibility to have clear policies in place, and to enforce them fairly and equally. Were you shooting from the stands or from the floor? They need to have a way to limit who can stand on the sidelines or the baseline and take pictures all night. There's only so much room and there are other issues. Shooting from the stands would be another matter. If they allow other people to take pictures from the stands then they need to allow you to do the same.

So go as high as you can in the district - Contact the superintendant's office and ask for a copy of their policy with regard to photography at school sporting events. Ask them to spell out who can shoot what, from where, etc. Only after the policy is clarified can you possibly come to some agreement with the administration.

If you get no joy there, then it's time to contact school board members. But don't give them the whole story, just ask for a clear policy so you have a place to start.

[asysin2leads]

It's a public venue. They can't restrict you in any way unless you're interfering with the game. I do think you may have ruffled some feathers when you used the word "harassing." Keep in mind that you get more flies with honey than with vinegar.

If they are playing on school grounds, the school administration can restrict entrance to anyone they chose. That's the school's right.

To the OP, I hate to hear that you were treated the way you were. Especially if you were granted access to other games. Like you said, it's a small town mentality. The other photographers have obviously been scoring points w/ the principal and AD. They're probably all golf buddies. Now, if you have credentials from the school that your son plays on, then you should be good to go. I would get the approval of YOUR athletic director to shoot for the school. Have letter in hand when you walk into another school, provided the school you shoot for is playing. That way the other school knows that you are "representing" the other school and there won't be an issue.

[MJPhotos24]

Well, there's actually a few problems/issues....

#1 - they made it a point to blow it out of proportion so don't follow there lead and do the same by going to the editor of the paper or trying to show them up, it does no good and it's already in the news that schools are doing this and WINNING, so it's not a big crime against any photographer - it's happening everywhere and includes newspaper photogs as well, not just those trying to get pics of their kids.

#2 - it's there school, and your son plays for the visiting team - while you shoot for the home team cheerleaders - is that correct? Usually you have to get permission to go into another school and shoot, unless of course invited by a coach/adviser as official photog. We have it here in a school I coach at that we can hire anyone we want as our photog, obviously I hired me, ha. However, we still need to tell the AD if we're bringing someone in if they are not in the district. Credentials are not really needed per say, but he wants to know exactly who's walking around with pro gear. Some schools don't have or enforce those rules, but many do nowadays. Parents are overprotective and want to know who the guy is with the camera taking pictures and what they're used for - some just want to know so they can get some copies, others want to find a problem.

#3 - A meeting with the principal back in 2005 would have been better than dropping it off at the desk. It could have been misplaced and forgotten about, even if she gave it to him it could have been. Much easier to set up a meeting face to face and then there's no concern of "did he get it?". Plus, it's 2005 and two years later he may just plain out not remember it at all.

#4 - Why ask the ticket lady to hold anything? It seems you'd rather want to have those yourself and that it just makes you more noticable. Not saying you try to hide but why go out of your way to make someone else hold your order forms when it'd be better and easier to just hold them yourself? If you hadn't done that none of this might even happen.

#5 - You are NOT protected by the consitution! A high school has the right to disallow anyone from taking photos, even of their own kid! They can't sit there with you and make sure you're being "good" and only taking your own kids picture and the fact is it's impossible to not include any other kids in your photos during b-ball. It could have gone as far as having you arrested if say you refused to turn it off and they asked you to leave (obviously esculating to that point, not just throw for no reason). I coach at 3 schools, have a teaching degree and athletic administratrion degree. Schools can enforce those rules - you got lucky they didn't know them good enough. I've seen people removed from the gyms by the police, not for cameras but for being asked to leave and refusing.

Fact of the matter is we're becoming an overprotective society trying to put kids in a bubble so god forbid they ever see anything in real life. Parents try to make it as safe as possible and by doing so they set their kids up to fail miserably when they go off to college and have no real life experience. This is being proven again and again, and it's those parents that complain to the AD, principal about the big bad man with the camera because they once heard of some guy in Kookamonga, Alaska who took a picture of a high school basketball player and put it on the internet and it didn't show his good side so poor little Johnny had emotional stress and had to be put on zanex. I think they're blowing it out of porportion, but at the same time they have the right to.

[MJPhotos24]

It's a public venue. They can't restrict you in any way unless you're interfering with the game. I do think you may have ruffled some feathers when you used the word "harassing." Keep in mind that you get more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Not true, they can restrict you!! A school may be paid for by tax payers but they have the right to protect their students...they also have the right to restrict it's usage. If it was true public property anyone could use it at any time, it's not the case for high schools.

[cdifoto]

2005? C'mon. I would probably have forgotten about you too, even if I had seen your "portfolio." Principals have a LOT on their minds in a given year. Expecting them to remember a booklet of pics by some schmuck two years later is ridiculous. Especially when you don't know for certain he/she even saw it in the first place.

Having said that - if you act like a professional, you'll be treated as one. If you act like a blowhard, you'll be treated as one. Respect is mutual.

[IndyJeff]

Check with your local law enforcment officials, here in Indiana if you are asked to leave school property and refuse you CAN be arrested and charged with a Class D FELONY. So before you push the issue, know the consequences.

[DD974]

Check with your local law enforcment officials, here in Indiana if you are asked to leave school property and refuse you CAN be arrested and charged with a Class D FELONY. So before you push the issue, know the consequences.

I've had a few hours of sleep and time to reflect on the "could-a-should ofs"...I'm going to be the pro and not stoop to their level. Although I understand their positions as "administrative educators" and all the paranoia with shielding the kids from real world experiences and all that comes with it.

I just should have found a place to lay down my forms (had my hands full at the time)...I'm really considering just not doing anymore work with the school where I need to go into attend a school function; Senior portraits is a different issue of course.

If I am asked by a parent to go to their son's game, regardless of the school (where neither of the teams is my son's), I'll require the parent to notify the school why I'll be there and for the parent to receive a signed consent document from someone in the admin, and I'll have it on my person at the game.

I will also take the advice of a previous post (thank you) and get a document from my school's AD stating why I'm shooting at the games...and keep that too on me.

My OP was written literally an hour after it happened and I was clearly upset, and still am to some degree. It's a tough pill to swallow, but keep reminding myself in this business you have to have very thick skin and expect narrow-mindedness and at time need to follow guidelines set forth by schools. But what gets me is that this Cheer advisor said to me "I never knew I had to ask the office", she said she's been using whoever she wanted for years and nobody ever told her she had to ask.

Hind-sight is 20-20...and I definitely should have made face-to-face contact with the Principal when I did what the AD asked by handing over my portfolio...but I would venture to say the photog. that's in the school's back pocket (and I saw at the game last night) wasn't required to provide anything. I'm convinced this person said something to get them all rowelled up over nothing, and simply because I was on "her turf".

[DD974]

Check with your local law enforcment officials, here in Indiana if you are asked to leave school property and refuse you CAN be arrested and charged with a Class D FELONY. So before you push the issue, know the consequences.

I was never asked to leave the building, just to turn off and put my camera down....and I told the principal I was there on a personal basis and he would need to ask everyone else in the gym to turn theirs off too.

[DD974]

Expecting them to remember a booklet of pics by some schmuck two years later is ridiculous.

This schmuck expects at a minimum for them to place my document in a filing cabinet, that's what professionals do. Although I'm finding some schools require things like this to be updated yearly...Thanks for your nice comments.

[DD974]

Fact of the matter is we're becoming an overprotective society trying to put kids in a bubble so god forbid they ever see anything in real life. Parents try to make it as safe as possible and by doing so they set their kids up to fail miserably when they go off to college and have no real life experience. This is being proven again and again, and it's those parents that complain to the AD, principal about the big bad man with the camera because they once heard of some guy in Kookamonga, Alaska who took a picture of a high school basketball player and put it on the internet and it didn't show his good side so poor little Johnny had emotional stress and had to be put on zanex. I think they're blowing it out of porportion, but at the same time they have the right to.

This hits the nail squarely on the head...so true. I appreciate everyones insight...I just need to chalk this up to experience and move on.

[DD974]

They're probably all golf buddies. Now, if you have credentials from the school that your son plays on, then you should be good to go. I would get the approval of YOUR athletic director to shoot for the school. Have letter in hand when you walk into another school, provided the school you shoot for is playing. That way the other school knows that you are "representing" the other school and there won't be an issue.

I agree....and I also had something else last summer happen with this "other" photographer...you see this 1/2 of the duo (who I saw last night) took over my job as the Little league photog....and this couple just happens to be good friends with a LL board member who has alot of influence as well as a co-worker with one of them. After one season doing the photos I've had so many parents come up to me and asked that I reconsider doing it again, and my response is the same as was the LL president, "you'll probably have a tuff time getting the job back" and that if they want a change they as parents need to collectively make this known to the LL Board.

[DD974]

Not true, they can restrict you!! A school may be paid for by tax payers but they have the right to protect their students...they also have the right to restrict it's usage. If it was true public property anyone could use it at any time, it's not the case for high schools.

Even if I truelly was there to practice with a new lens on real life situations like a basketball game and the intent wasn't to post anything online for sale. Just because they know you have a business, doesn't give them the right to force anyone to turn off there camera ....how do they know the person up in the middle bleacher with their point and shoot isn't selling photos, albeit they won't get good action with the P/S they could still sell photos...period.

But in the end I go back to why they are so paranoid...thanks to all the Chester Molesters out there and the warped and twisted society we live in today a guy can't even take pictures of his kid at a basketball game without people being anal retentive.

[MJPhotos24]

Even if I truelly was there to practice with a new lens on real life situations like a basketball game and the intent wasn't to post anything online for sale. Just because they know you have a business, doesn't give them the right to force anyone to turn off there camera ....how do they know the person up in the middle bleacher with their point and shoot isn't selling photos, albeit they won't get good action with the P/S they could still sell photos...period.

But in the end I go back to why they are so paranoid...thanks to all the Chester Molesters out there and the warped and twisted society we live in today a guy can't even take pictures of his kid at a basketball game without people being anal retentive.

Well, they DO have the right to make you turn off your camera, anyone for that manner. They can set the rules all they want when it comes to that and make it so noone can shoot or just certain individuals can shoot. It happens all the time, of course it's the trickle down effect from pro sports that went to college and now to high school. This is happening with everything, high school sports is becoming well commercialized, targeted by sports companies, getting sponsorships, etc. etc. So it's strange that as a society we're trying to make HS ball "blow up" and put it on a national scale - but then we have parents who want it hidden from the world when there kid is playing sports.

I remember a thread awhile ago, maybe on here, about something similar. How parents complained of a photographer taking photos and posting them online for sale - now he was hired by the school, followed all the proper procedures, was wearing credentials from the school, everything was set up and no problems. Until he got a few emails asking for pics to be removed, even the ones where their kids were in the background. Of course it's his right to leave them in his gallery, so he did. BUT, moral is even though he was the official school photographer you're always going to find someone that sticks that big thorn in your side.

Smile, nod, move on. :) or pimp slap them, but that causes more problems usually.

[DD974]

Smile, nod, move on. :)

Thanks....I'm so wanting to let go of this...one of my downfalls....as time passes I will. I guess I've been fortunate in that nobody has ever asked my to remove an action photo...that day's probably coming though the longer I do it. I never want to step foot inside that school again.

[Thomas Blake]

Understand that the school has the right and responsibility to make rules and enforce them for lots of reasons.

This is true. I have seen professional advertising firms, marketing firms, and apparel companies simply walk into a school and start shooting practice or a game with the intent of using the photos for commercial purposes. They count on someone not bothering to say anything. If a situation looks like this, a school official should interject with the best interests of the students at heart.

HOWEVER, since this was not your case and you were there as a parent, the grand inquisition should have stopped the moment this was clear. Does the school have a right to stop you from shooting at the game? Technically, I suppose so. That doesn't make it right however. SHOULD they, given that your son is on the team? No, I don't think so.

Forget the newspaper. Few people will care.

Maybe, maybe not. If no other agreement can be reached and the school officials continue to be unreasonable, then I would think of this as the logical next step if it were me. Get ALL the facts, especially if you are going to make allegations against another photographer, then call out the school officials in public. Small town, small town mentality, but that also means that most people in a small town see the same newspaper.

Understand also that the school may have some exclusive contract with a photographer (generally these involve kicking back a certain percentage of sales to the school).

Maybe it's just me, but I think the concept of "turf" is a load of garbage in the professional world, be-it photography, real estate, whatever.
It's anti-competitive. Being on another's "turf" would not make me feel guilty, nor influence any of my decisions on a matter.

FINALLY, the only real opposing issue I see here is the best interest of your child. I am not a parent - this message hasn't been written from a parent's mentality. But it occurs to me that you MAY need to step back, decide whether or not this will have a negative effect on your child in school regardless of who is actually right or wrong, and make a decision based on that conclusion.

[ChrisRabior]

Chalk it up as a lesson learned. I think this serves as another lesson to brush up on your legal rights as a photographer. Some excellent books on the subject, I'd suggest reading one or two.

People that see a guy with a camera can come to some really ignorant conclusions. The course of action they deem best at the time can be even less intelligent. It happens, and unfortunately, this probably won't be the last time this happens with you.

Based on the fact that your son was playing, that's really all you needed to say. I'm here within my rights as a parent. The last time I was in your situation where some idiot told me he would have me removed, I politely asked his name and who he worked for, wrote it down. He asked why, and I told him it was for my attorney. That basically ended his power trip, and I was left alone for the remainder of the tournament (despite the photo team contracted to shoot for the team). Note: In this case, I wasn't selling the images, and there was absolutely NO camera policy, AND there were a lot of others in the rink with digital SLR's. I guess my white lens drew the scorn.. ah well.

If I understand your business, you're shooting specifically for your son's school. If that's the case, the other schools aren't your concern. Worry about your school's staff. If you'd like to expand to the other schools, then you'll probably want to run it by their staff. A letter coming from you that's also signed by your school's AD and/or principal is going to carry a lot more weight.

A lot of people have made good points, but there's an exception to everything. As MJPhotos said, you're not necessarily protected. If the school had a contract to only allow a hired photographer to sell, then you're outta luck. Now, if you just got singled out, then you have a good argument of harassment if they didn't approach any of the other GWC's at the game.. of course the rules are different in every state.

If you're really that caught up about this, talk to an attorney for some reliable info for your specific location.

What would I do? Settle down.. get past being annoyed at their response. Approach your school, maybe coordinate things with them and the opposing teams from then on out. Always best to work out the details beforehand so you don't run into these issues while you're shooting.

[liza]

Not true, they can restrict you!! A school may be paid for by tax payers but they have the right to protect their students...they also have the right to restrict it's usage. If it was true public property anyone could use it at any time, it's not the case for high schools.

That's not what my newspaper editor told me. And I AM a teacher for a public school. No one is prohibited from taking photos. We prohibit sideline access for field sports for safety and liability purposes but pose no restrictions for basketball whatsoever. I've never been questioned at any school about shooting in a high school gym nor has anyone else shooting a high school game at which I've been present.

[MJPhotos24]

That's not what my newspaper editor told me. And I AM a teacher for a public school. No one is prohibited from taking photos. We prohibit sideline access for field sports for safety and liability purposes but pose no restrictions for basketball whatsoever. I've never been questioned at any school about shooting in a high school gym nor has anyone else shooting a high school game at which I've been present.

Well, he's wrong plain and simple. There's a few cases going to litigation over it right now all over the country and the schools are winning. The local paper thought the same exact thing (public school = public property and no restrictions), they found out quickly they were wrong and photogs and writers are not allowed on that schools grounds anymore. Some areas and some schools might be lax on the issue and not care, around here there really doesn't seem to be anyone that cares. When I went back to my old school teachers who didn't know me just let me go where I wanted and shoot. They have no restrictions, but thats not saying they can't put them in and enforce them any time they want.

Also, as for teaching, maybe it's new but just finishing up my Masters (Bachelors in '02) and we had classes on these issues about "control". I'm not sure if we covered it in undergrad, but I know in the graduate we've had a few athletic management classes that mentioned these rules. My guess would be in other programs (english, math, etc) they wouldnt even mention these because those teachers usually dont have much to do with the athletic department.

[DD974]

Thanks to all for expressing their knowledge and experiences...very theraputic!

[liza]

They must do things differently in New York. We aren't paranoid about the media covering a school event here in the Midwest. And I'll share with my editor that you feel that he has no right to take photos at a public venue. I'm sure he'll beg to differ. ;)

[MJPhotos24]

They must do things differently in New York. We aren't paranoid about the media covering a school event here in the Midwest. And I'll share with my editor that you feel that he has no right to take photos at a public venue. I'm sure he'll beg to differ. ;)

Well, it's not NY - it's national (even though NY has the strictest laws in the country on every other aspect along with CA - but thats besides the point). Just do a search quick and you'll see law suits all over the country. IL is the most known!! It's actually kind of amazing to me you don't know it living in that state - it's the most publisized law suit dealing with the issue in the country by FAR!! I already said it may be the area (and that means area/state - not just generalized) but the fact of the matter is the editor is 100% wrong by saying it's public property and you can shoot away and not be stopped - it's national, not local, it's a LAW that is nation wide and it's not new - 1970's I want to say but don't quote me. Not trying to be a jerk about it, but facts are facts. It's not ME that feels that, its nation wide rules. I could care less if your editor videos, photographs, sends morse code for god sake - schools have the right to stop him...and to be overly honest, the fact a teacher doesn't know that is the scariest part!! Probably because I came through the "newer" system that taught that - older systems didn't. But to me it's common sense...and not to mention look at all the other responses - they all said the same thing, so obviously it's not a "secret" NY law/rule.

So, basically - schools are not as public as people think they are...and if they beg to differ, hire a lawyer and fight it - then lose - just like everyone else has.

[Nanscombe]

Hi All,

... I'll share with my editor that you feel that he has no right to take photos at a public venue. I'm sure he'll beg to differ. ;)

If Schools, Malls, Zoos or Parks were truly open to the public, why bother putting walls, fences or lockable gates around them? The public is invited to enter these places on acceptance of the rules laid down by the true owners.

Schools, paid for by the public, are there to educate children. Their parents, or any other adult, have no business being there unless invited.

Besides, it would be the poor journalist that's carted off by the Police whilst the editor sits safely behind his desk.

Regards
Nigel

[RonnieA]

Glad I live in Seattle. More laid back up here in the Great Northwest.

While I ask for permission to shoot on the sidelines at high school football games, I have yet to at a hoops game. I just pay my $6, walk in, plop my a$$ on the floor, make sure I am out of the way, and shoot, no questions asked. There are usually a few other friendly folks doing the same thing. I have cozied up to soccer fields as well without incident. This is all of course during the regular season; playoffs are another story.

[MJPhotos24]

Glad I live in Seattle. More laid back up here in the Great Northwest.

While I ask for permission to shoot on the sidelines at high school football games, I have yet to at a hoops game. I just pay my $6, walk in, plop my a$$ on the floor, make sure I am out of the way, and shoot, no questions asked. There are usually a few other friendly folks doing the same thing. I have cozied up to soccer fields as well without incident. This is all of course during the regular season; playoffs are another story.

It's layed back here as well in two of the leagues I coach in (v-ball & baseball), but the third (b-ball) is a bit more strict as it's a LOT bigger and more city schools. Either way though any of those schools can at any time start enforcing the rules if they want to. I've never been asked or questioned, just go in and start shooting - when I tried to pay at games they said I didn't have to (with the big white lens on my shoulder usually as my free pass). The one league I'm going to try and start blanketing that gets no coverage is layed back, which is a good thing.

Ronnie need a new neighbor? Thinking of movin out of state, just don't know where! Gotta have baseball around or else I won't be there!

[cosworth]

Keep shooting until the police come. Prohibiting you from shooting yuor kid will be hard to enforce since there are about 100 other cameras in the building in phones etc.

I hate photo National Socialists.

[DD974]

Keep shooting until the police come. Prohibiting you from shooting yuor kid will be hard to enforce since there are about 100 other cameras in the building in phones etc.

I hate photo National Socialists.

I totally agree with that 200%....there I was just minding my own business and this is how I'm treated...the big bad man with the white lens.

That's precisely what I told the pricipal, "if you're asking me to turn this off then you need to announce it throughout the gym for everyone else to do the same"...then I said he was ridiculous...that's when he said he'd "put me out"....but I kept shooting anyway. Later on during the varsity game, while I stood next to the fine superintendant (who had a son on the visiting team) and shootin' away...I looked to his left and there stood a local "Barney Fife lookin' police officer, one bullet and all" and I thought..."oh...here we go, things are going to get interesting now"...but the police never got involved.

[S.Horton]

It is a school environment. Any principal in the USA must quickly assess your attitude and mood of those surrounding you, so if you are making anyone uncomfortable in any way, I could understand why he'd eject you or restrict you.

Having said that, you wanted advice -- keep your cool.

Were they right? Doesn't matter.

[Alexajlex]

It is a school environment. Any principal in the USA must quickly assess your attitude and mood of those surrounding you, so if you are making anyone uncomfortable in any way, I could understand why he'd eject you or restrict you.

Having said that, you wanted advice -- keep your cool.

Were they right? Doesn't matter.

Being that he was there as a private individual and taking pictures of his son nobody could directly or indirectly tell him to shut off the camera (unless they have a court order).
The concepts of tort and conversion come to mind.

This is all outlined in the paragraph titled "They Have No Right To Confiscate Your Film in The Photograper's Right (http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf) .
The gentleman who wrote the document, Bert Krages, is a respected attorney and a well known expert in IP law and advocate of photographer's rights.
He also wrote a book on the subject (Legal Handbook for Photographers: The Rights and Liabilities of Making Images)

[DD974]

Interestingly...tonight I just got a call from another cheerleader coach from the same school (JH basketball) and she asked that I take her teams photos in January. I filled her in on what had happened at their school this past Tuesday night (and she was there)...I told her she'd have to go to the office and tell them she was going to use me for team photos. I also told her I'd be sending the Principal a letter stating my intentions concerning photographing teams at the school....similar to what I gave them before and they lost.

I have a change in stragedy....I was going to just rinse my hands of anything from that school, but that's exactly what this duo who calls themselves pros want me to do..that is to stay off their "turf"....I might be way off but I don't think I am....considering I saw one of them that very night before all this blew up...granted if I hadn't asked someone to hold onto my forms this probably would never have happened either.

These are people who photographed little league last year after I declined....c' mon...they produce their prints from an injet printer...to me, people who like to make trouble for others like this are lacking self confidence and inadequate in their own abilities or inabilities as it were. This may sound conceited to some...but I call it confidence. We all have our niches and levels of expertise....and they know my work...if anyone saw their work they'd see what I mean.

[DD974]

if you are making anyone uncomfortable in any way, I could understand why he'd eject you or restrict you.


That's just it....I wasn't bothering anyone....I was just more noticable with the big bad white lens.. ....given the fact that the Superintendant knew me from past years on the Little League board when in fact I was the player agent. Long story short....they never included me in the all-star balloting or counting of the votes and counted them at the treasurers kitchen table and destroyed the ballots. I took issue with this (especially after seeing the roster full of coaches son's) and made my thoughts known to the good 'ole boy clique on the board and they ended up voting me off the board because I rocked their little tugboat....this superintendant was one of those "good ole boys"...he clearly had other fish to fry.

[MJPhotos24]

Being that he was there as a private individual and taking pictures of his son nobody could directly or indirectly tell him to shut off the camera (unless they have a court order).
The concepts of tort and conversion come to mind.

This is all outlined in the paragraph titled "They Have No Right To Confiscate Your Film in The Photograper's Right (http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf) .
The gentleman who wrote the document, Bert Krages, is a respected attorney and a well known expert in IP law and advocate of photographer's rights.
He also wrote a book on the subject (Legal Handbook for Photographers: The Rights and Liabilities of Making Images)

The general rule in the United States
is that anyone may take photographs
of whatever they want when they are
in a public place or places where they
have permission to take photographs.

Umm, a school is not a public place...sure it's paid for by the public, but it's not public and in that case you need permission. So this really has nothing to do with the OP. They can at ANY time tell you to stop on school grounds, at a public park - no, on school grounds hell yes they can.

In any case, when a property
owner tells you not to take photographs
while on the premises, you are
legally obligated to honor the request.

School says no = camera goes off.

So, really that guide has no standing at all on school grounds...or other places as well, for example local stadiums. Sure Dwyer Stadium down the road was paid for by tax payers, but it's home to a minor league team and I can't go in any time I want and start taking some grounders at short, and I can't go in and start shooting away without permission.

[MJPhotos24]

That's just it....I wasn't bothering anyone....I was just more noticable with the big bad white lens.. ....given the fact that the Superintendant knew me from past years on the Little League board when in fact I was the player agent. Long story short....they never included me in the all-star balloting or counting of the votes and counted them at the treasurers kitchen table and destroyed the ballots. I took issue with this (especially after seeing the roster full of coaches son's) and made my thoughts known to the good 'ole boy clique on the board and they ended up voting me off the board because I rocked their little tugboat....this superintendant was one of those "good ole boys"...he clearly had other fish to fry.

I just got replaced as a varsity coach by someone with zero experience. I am currently coaching my 16th season in 5 different sports (so a LITTLE more experience than this new coach who's never done any kind of coaching EVER). A teacher at the school told me she thinks this new "coach" got the job because they all seem to be in this little club together. Ok, whatever - there's better opportunities out there. Am I happy, hell no - do I feel cheated, hell yes. But guess what, it's a learning experience that you take and move on. Obviously you guys have a history and if it can't be worked out, tough luck for both sides. Sorry, but personally I just can't waste my time on trivial crap that other people do so it goes out of site/out of mind.

There's one school I absolutely refuse to step into - I don't want to deal with them (no it's not the school that replaced me above). I did work there, hated everything about it, but when it came to getting out I ran away and never looked back. Same can be done with this situation, bad things happened so you take what happened and learned from it and know how to shoot in schools from now on. If it's a new place know that you should contact people ahead of time - because no matter how you look at it schools have the right to restrict cameras all they want. Don't let it bug you on a personal level, cuz obviously there's problems from previous years as well.

BTW, think of it this way to...just like coaches talk and you get word of mouth - superintendents and AD's have meetings all the time to raise new issues. Last thing you want is your name to be an issue, all of a sudden every time a coach says "I want to hire so and so" they AD goes - sorry, he's not allowed choose another photographer.

As for whoever is selling prints on a inkjet computer, no clue how good the photos are compared - or whos better...but thats just not right to do that if you're selling them to parents. Ripping the parents off doing that.

[DD974]

you should contact people ahead of time

...as I stated in my OP....I did contact them ahead of time and I had no other reason to believe it was on file in the school office, after all, you have to realize I've been in that same school just a couple months before doing the girls volleyball team as well as attending a couple games and taking action shots and those same "administrators" saw me, especially the superintendant, and never said a word to me.
But this is all irrelevant in this case specifically because I was shooting for no other reason than for personal reasons...period. Do they have the right to make me turn off my gear, yes....and I knew this before I ever went into the gym...but they need to make everyone else turn off their cameras and cell phone cameras too if they single me out.

As for whoever is selling prints on a inkjet computer, no clue how good the photos are compared - or whos better...but thats just not right to do that if you're selling them to parents. Ripping the parents off doing that.

...it just goes to show that anyone who picks up anything but a P/S can and are calling themselves photographers...it's no different than when someone who can swing a hammer can slap a magnetic sign on the side of a truck and call themselves a contractor.

This is definitely a lesson learned, I'm moving on, providing a yearly letter to the school's office as was suggested by the principal the following day as well as getting a document from my own school's AD and keeping it in my gear bag.

[S.Horton]

Being that he was there as a private individual and taking pictures of his son nobody could directly or indirectly tell him to shut off the camera (unless they have a court order).
The concepts of tort and conversion come to mind.

This is all outlined in the paragraph titled "They Have No Right To Confiscate Your Film in The Photograper's Right (http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf) .
The gentleman who wrote the document, Bert Krages, is a respected attorney and a well known expert in IP law and advocate of photographer's rights.
He also wrote a book on the subject (Legal Handbook for Photographers: The Rights and Liabilities of Making Images)

When I read this, I think you have no children currently in a US public school.

[Curtis N]

They must do things differently in New York. We aren't paranoid about the media covering a school event here in the Midwest.Consider yourself lucky, Liza. I agree the paranoia has gotten ridiculuous in some places. And the way school boards tend to work, it could only take one paranoid, vocal parent to change things in Central Illinois.
I'll share with my editor that you feel that he has no right to take photos at a public venue. I'm sure he'll beg to differ.I hope you'll agree that school officials have the right to remove people who are disruptive, profane, or who otherwise interfere with school sporting events or the enjoyment of other spectators, or pose a threat to the safety of the students.

You're a woman who takes pictures at schools where people know you. If you were a man who showed up with a camera at cheerleading practice and no one knew who you were, people would be asking questions.

[liza]

Of course schools have the right to remove jerks who think they're God's gift to photography. The media photogs I know don't conduct themselves in an unprofessional manner. And I travel to schools where I'm not known. I just have enough sense to present the proper credentials intially and identify myself. The lawsuits people have referred to are likely connected to hobbyists who are a PITA rather than legitimate media photographers or parents who want to take a few snaps of their own kids. I don't know one AD or coach in this area who doesn't want their team publicized.

And I'm not arguing anymore.

[scotteisenphotography]

Well let me share my experience...i live 15 minutes outside of boston, and i take photos at a local highschool, which is not even public ,it's private. Not once has anyone approached me to stop taking photos or anything. There are 3 security guards, and they are all characters...anyways, i walked onto the field during a football game last year with a 400 2.8 and a Mark IIn....there were no other photographers, and the headmaster came over and started talking to me about which players i should capture because someday they might make it big. Hell, he was even helping me out! So i guess the people at your school are just...very, very paranoid

[MJPhotos24]

I did contact them ahead of time and I had no other reason to believe it was on file in the school office, after all, you have to realize I've been in that same school just a couple months before doing the girls volleyball team as well as attending a couple games and taking action shots and those same "administrators" saw me, especially the superintendant, and never said a word to me.

Well, I'll give a local baseball example - If I shoot a game in Buffalo on Monday I have to call them at least Sunday to say I'm coming out and get permission. Now on Monday I decide to shoot on Tuesday, guess what - I have to go get the media director and ask for permission to shoot on Tuesday. Contacting them in 2005 and shooting in 2007, not going to cut it. And how do you know policies didn't change? I've had policies change on me within 5 mins of arriving before, literally on the walk from the media room to the field where someone chases me down - usually where you can shoot from or something like that but they do change. Assume - there's an old saying for that word.

Do they have the right to make me turn off my gear, yes....and I knew this before I ever went into the gym...but they need to make everyone else turn off their cameras and cell phone cameras too if they single me out.

Actually they don't...

it's no different than when someone who can swing a hammer can slap a magnetic sign on the side of a truck and call themselves a contractor.

Don't you need a license for contracting? I.e., the term "licensed contractor". You lose all legality when hiring someone who isn't licensed - in other words if they screw the job up the judge sits there and goes "sir, you hired a non-licensed contractor, you're an idiot, you lose". Can hire a non-licensed but you're screwed if anything goes wrong.

This is definitely a lesson learned, I'm moving on, providing a yearly letter to the school's office as was suggested by the principal the following day as well as getting a document from my own school's AD and keeping it in my gear bag.

Yearly letters a good idea, but I would still inform them of the games you're going to shoot if they ask for it. If they say you don't have to tell us when you're coming then at least they know you took the initiative to keep them informed by suggesting you would.

[MJPhotos24]

Well let me share my experience...i live 15 minutes outside of boston, and i take photos at a local highschool, which is not even public ,it's private. Not once has anyone approached me to stop taking photos or anything. There are 3 security guards, and they are all characters...anyways, i walked onto the field during a football game last year with a 400 2.8 and a Mark IIn....there were no other photographers, and the headmaster came over and started talking to me about which players i should capture because someday they might make it big. Hell, he was even helping me out! So i guess the people at your school are just...very, very paranoid

I've had that happen but usually it's because they think the big white lens = newspaper photographer.

[scotteisenphotography]

I've had that happen but usually it's because they think the big white lens = newspaper photographer.

very true

[cdifoto]

As for whoever is selling prints on a inkjet computer, no clue how good the photos are compared - or whos better...but thats just not right to do that if you're selling them to parents. Ripping the parents off doing that.

Technically, there's nothing wrong with an inkjet print. There are professional series printers that use inkjet technology and those prints rival both the quality and longevity of a traditional Fuji processor print. To make a professionalism judgment based on print processes used is unfair, to say the least.

[MJPhotos24]

Technically, there's nothing wrong with an inkjet print. There are professional series printers that use inkjet technology and those prints rival both the quality and longevity of a traditional Fuji processor print. To make a professionalism judgment based on print processes used is unfair, to say the least.

I've seen those prints and I still think they are rip offs, but then again I haven't seen any of them printed off the new printers in the last year or two so they've probably gotten better - but I'm still not sold. The ones I've seen didn't rival lab prints - and I have one of these "high end" inkjets sitting here covered in dust because it couldn't pass the comparison. The guy who did our pics last year used one of the brand new top of the line ones as well, with the best paper out there (according to him this is) and I got to listen to a lot of complaints - mostly because the photos weren't to the parents liking, then because the quality didn't seem good. They didn't like the paper, maybe it was because he didn't crop anything, just printed them and left them printed on the paper with white borders so the parents had to cut them out.

[MJPhotos24]

The lawsuits people have referred to are likely connected to hobbyists who are a PITA rather than legitimate media photographers or parents who want to take a few snaps of their own kids. I don't know one AD or coach in this area who doesn't want their team publicized.

Actually, no - the lawsuits I was refering to were media, accredited newspaper photographers who were refused entry onto school grounds. Some areas it's a problem, other areas it's not, but it happens everywhere from city schools to little farm towns, and all the schools have the right to refuse entry.

I've seen it in both type areas - at local city schools a few of them do not allow anyone in; not media, not fans, not parents, not anyone. All the events are closed and the only people there are players, coaches, refs, and security guards. In a little hick town with more cows than people the school told the local paper, the ONLY paper covering them, that there photog and writers are not allowed anymore on school property. They didn't give a very good excuse but the paper had to follow, they cover them on the road and that is it.

I would say most areas it's not a problem, but that doesn't mean it isn't in others and it never happens, or rules change.

[cdifoto]

I've seen those prints and I still think they are rip offs, but then again I haven't seen any of them printed off the new printers in the last year or two so they've probably gotten better - but I'm still not sold. The ones I've seen didn't rival lab prints - and I have one of these "high end" inkjets sitting here covered in dust because it couldn't pass the comparison. The guy who did our pics last year used one of the brand new top of the line ones as well, with the best paper out there (according to him this is) and I got to listen to a lot of complaints - mostly because the photos weren't to the parents liking, then because the quality didn't seem good. They didn't like the paper, maybe it was because he didn't crop anything, just printed them and left them printed on the paper with white borders so the parents had to cut them out.

I dunno. I printed out everything from a wedding last August on my R2400 and the bride loved them - and it wasn't a cheap wedding or couple (millionaires). Can't say I'll do it again though. Not for quality reasons but because printing and cutting that much myself was a pain in the arse. You gotta have your workflow down to get good images though so I can see how it'd be possible to turn out crap.

[MJPhotos24]

I dunno. I printed out everything from a wedding last August on my R2400 and the bride loved them - and it wasn't a cheap wedding or couple (millionaires). Can't say I'll do it again though. Not for quality reasons but because printing and cutting that much myself was a pain in the arse. You gotta have your workflow down to get good images though so I can see how it'd be possible to turn out crap.

Technologicaly speaking can't say as I just haven't, and don't care to, study up on the subject. I did read an article earlier today though about a guy who uses inkjet, and he did 10 proofs before being satisfied enough to print the 11th as a "keeper". OK, so he just spent $.90 a sheet to print those tests (he stated that's how much his top of the line paper cost), and finally got it right on the 11th sheet, when I could of just paid $.75 to get it right in the first place because the lab uses a trained eye to make sure the print is right. Don't make sense to me.

As for the guy last year I dealt with, the more I think about it the more I think it was the actual paper. I just remember it feeling thin and almost like a piece of regular paper and not a photo, so maybe it was that that made parents question how good it was. I'll have to ask around a bit next week when I see some of them.

[RonnieA]

Ronnie need a new neighbor? Thinking of movin out of state, just don't know where! Gotta have baseball around or else I won't be there!

Bring it! It's wet and cold in Seattle during the high school baseball season, but the weather is hard to beat during the summer months - mid 70s to low 80s with relatively low humidity.

[MJPhotos24]

Bring it! It's wet and cold in Seattle during the high school baseball season, but the weather is hard to beat during the summer months - mid 70s to low 80s with relatively low humidity.

Insert image of my first scrimmage playing college ball. There we were shoveling the field, playing on frozen ground as it snowed during the game. Not fun man, not fun. Yea, I can deal with wet and rainy over frozen and snowy. I actually like hot, 80+ is good by me...any cold/snow can go away. Hotter the better. Hence why I feel a move down south or west/south (AZ) is on the verge.

If I go to Seattle I gotta develop a pitching staff to out duel your pitching staff :)

[cdifoto]

Technologicaly speaking can't say as I just haven't, and don't care to, study up on the subject. I did read an article earlier today though about a guy who uses inkjet, and he did 10 proofs before being satisfied enough to print the 11th as a "keeper". OK, so he just spent $.90 a sheet to print those tests (he stated that's how much his top of the line paper cost), and finally got it right on the 11th sheet, when I could of just paid $.75 to get it right in the first place because the lab uses a trained eye to make sure the print is right. Don't make sense to me.

As for the guy last year I dealt with, the more I think about it the more I think it was the actual paper. I just remember it feeling thin and almost like a piece of regular paper and not a photo, so maybe it was that that made parents question how good it was. I'll have to ask around a bit next week when I see some of them.

I admit to printing a lot of test images before getting some right but that was before I knew jack about monitor calibration, printing profiles and all that stuff. Everything's about as spot on as it can get now.

It probably was his paper. I use Epson's Premium Luster and I really can't tell it from a Luster Lab print, except the paper's slightly thicker than Fuji Crystal Archive. I've also used Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl and it's good paper as well.

Many professional printers are using inkjets wide format printing, so quality isn't a valid argument. It's the tech controlling it that matters. Kind of like photography gear being important but less so than photographic knowledge. :)

[EnronRocks]

It all depends on the schools rules.

If a school has rules regarding the identity of students, they can tell you to turn a camera off and you have to listen. No ifs ands or buts, especially if you are told by a Principle, Assistant Principle, and or Athletic Director. Now if a Referee or official tells you to stop, you then ask why. If they state it is because you are interfering , move out of the way. They legally can not do anything, and if they try to kick you out contact law enforcement and blow it completely out of proportion.

Now, if you really want to take it further, approach the school board. Legally the principle can kick you out of the game and tell you to shut off the camera but ONLY if it sates somewhere that parents have signed that you can not do it. Check the school guidelines/handbook and see if there is anything in the area of "Photography" and "Camera use". If there is not do it again, but this time take more than one person. Have multiple mom and dads on the sidelines using their camera nothing can stop the right amount of people.

I carry around a peace of paper that states my rights as a photographer, if anyone ever questions what I am doing I hand them a copy of it with my lawyers business card stapled to it. I have handed out 10 or 12 of these over the last year or two, and have yet to hear back from anyone.

If you want a copy of this paper, PM me and I will give you it.

[MJPhotos24]

EnronRocks

if a Referee or official tells you to stop, you then ask why. If they state it is because you are interfering , move out of the way. They legally can not do anything...

If any official tells you to then you just move out of the way and hopefully you already have permission to shoot so can say to the ref that you are permitted to by the school. However, they can do something about it. They can stop the game, inform the home coach that the game will not continue until "that person" is removed. Basketball for example, they'd give a technical foul, then a double T, then game over forfeit. I don't think that would ever happen, but the officials can do something about it - but mostly there "something" is get the home school on their side and get the school to do the removing.

Legally the principle can kick you out of the game and tell you to shut off the camera but ONLY if it sates somewhere that parents have signed that you can not do it.

That is 100% false information. They do not need anything signed by parents to restrict it. Some seem to be missing the point that schools are NOT public places and they can set the rules how they want any time they want. Usually BOE is the higher power and the chain of command is used, for example the AD tells the principal who then takes it to the BOE who approves it or disapproves it.

Check the school guidelines/handbook and see if there is anything in the area of "Photography" and "Camera use". If there is not do it again, but this time take more than one person. Have multiple mom and dads on the sidelines using their camera nothing can stop the right amount of people.

Perfect example of how to never be allowed back in that school ever again! That won't work one bit, and exactly how to get on the schools bad side which isn't a good idea. Every league has AD meetings, all the AD's from every school go to them and share ideas, problems, concerns, etc. - ok, so the AD from that school goes and informs the other AD's of the problems they're having with a certain photographer. Guess what photographer just got blackballed from a bunch of other schools? If you picked the photographer who did the above in bold you are correct, ding ding. You win banishment.

I carry around a peace of paper that states my rights as a photographer, if anyone ever questions what I am doing I hand them a copy of it with my lawyers business card stapled to it. I have handed out 10 or 12 of these over the last year or two, and have yet to hear back from anyone.

I'm guessing it's the one I just read the other day someone else posted in a diff. thread. Guess what, that means jack s**t in schools. It's for public property like parks, on the streets, etc. and schools are NOT public property. It's like trying to use that piece of paper at a NFL game, security will look at it, laugh - tear it in half and throw your arse out on the sidewalk. The people that know will not be fooled by it.

[Alexajlex]

When I read this, I think you have no children currently in a US public school.

When I read your reply I started to think that you believe the law and rights should apply differently because of certain circumstances.
I'm all for protection of the children but how absurd is it to tell a parent that they can't take a picture of their own kid?
I take it that you have kids in school.
Ask yourself what would you do if you could not take your kid's picture at a ball game? Somehow I think you'd change sides on this pretty quickly.

[Alexajlex]

The article specifically addresses places where you do not have express written permission to take pictures like a mall.
If the security guards at the mall can't stop you from taking pictures without a court order (and if they did you could sue for tort and conversion in civil court) how is that not the same when you are just trying to take pictures of your own kid?
I'm not a lawyer so I try to take the advice of people that are (like Bert Krages).
I figure that since he wrote a book on the subject he knows what he is talking about.

The general rule in the United States
is that anyone may take photographs
of whatever they want when they are
in a public place or places where they
have permission to take photographs.

Umm, a school is not a public place...sure it's paid for by the public, but it's not public and in that case you need permission. So this really has nothing to do with the OP. They can at ANY time tell you to stop on school grounds, at a public park - no, on school grounds hell yes they can.

In any case, when a property
owner tells you not to take photographs
while on the premises, you are
legally obligated to honor the request.

School says no = camera goes off.

So, really that guide has no standing at all on school grounds...or other places as well, for example local stadiums. Sure Dwyer Stadium down the road was paid for by tax payers, but it's home to a minor league team and I can't go in any time I want and start taking some grounders at short, and I can't go in and start shooting away without permission.

[JWright]

The article specifically addresses places where you do not have express written permission to take pictures like a mall.
If the security guards at the mall can't stop you from taking pictures without a court order (and if they did you could sue for tort and conversion in civil court) how is that not the same when you are just trying to take pictures of your own kid?
I'm not a lawyer so I try to take the advice of people that are (like Bert Krages).
I figure that since he wrote a book on the subject he knows what he is talking about.

Most malls are private property and the owners/operators can prohibit you from taking photos if they want...

[MJPhotos24]

The article specifically addresses places where you do not have express written permission to take pictures like a mall.
If the security guards at the mall can't stop you from taking pictures without a court order (and if they did you could sue for tort and conversion in civil court) how is that not the same when you are just trying to take pictures of your own kid?
I'm not a lawyer so I try to take the advice of people that are (like Bert Krages).
I figure that since he wrote a book on the subject he knows what he is talking about.

I think you need to read that article again because you're presenting false information. It says they can't take your film (or nowadays memory card) - it does not say they can't stop you from taking pictures or have you removed from the mall, because they can. It even says in the opening what is public property (streets, sidewalks, parks, etc). Malls can limit you from doing it, stop you, ban you, etc. because it's not public property. If they tell you to leave and you don't, it's now considered trespassing and you won't have to call the cops, because they will be on there way to remove you already.

Bert knows what he's talking about, however, when the reader doesn't read it thouroughly, and understand it fully, the information is lost. Especially when it comes to laws, growing up with an ex-cop turned 20 year judge you learn way to many laws, the good, bad and stupid.

As for the comments on how absurd is it to stop a parent from taking pics of there own kid, well that's not the problem. The problem is they don't know for sure that you are doing just that, they don't know if you're taking pics of other kids as well, they don't know if you're some weirdo or what, so they error on the side of caution. The schools don't want to hear from parents bitching about how so-and-so took pics and posted them online and my poor innocent little Billy is in the background and it's your fault for allowing him to shoot those games, now Billy is mentally scared - we're suing. Far stretch yes, but have you met some parents in todays society? You'd be amazed at how insane some of them are (my apology to all the insane parents reading this).