Faster lens??

[PhotoDude25]

....... :)......Hi all, was having some issues I was hoping someone here could shed some light on. I am currently using a D30 with a 75-300mm F4-5.6 USM and a 420EX to shoot night high school football games and I'm not very pleased with the results. I seem to get alot of blurring... too slow a lens? camera shake? Anyway, I was considering trying to pick up a 70-200mm f2.8, would this be a great improvement to me? Also, think I'll start bringing the trusty monopod and see if that helps any. Anyone shoot on these dimly lit fields have any insight for me? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks....PhotoDude25

[robertwgross]

Most high school football fields are dimly lit.

If you are shooting into a dark field, then the exposure should be purely from the flash unit's light. In that case, there should be no motion blur unless you have the camera off in some weird shooting mode. The exposure will be accurate at close ranges, even with that slow lens. If you need to reach into moderate ranges, then the faster lens would pay off.

If you are shooting into a brightly lit field, then the exposure should be partly from the flash unit's light and partly from that ambient light. In that case, the motion blur may come from shutter speed.

Why don't you start by telling us what shooting mode you are in, and any details you have about settings, e.g. ISO? Typical distance?

---Bob Gross---

[PhotoDude25]

Hi Bob,
Thanks for your quick response. I shoot mostly in sports mode, sometime auto but mostly sports mode. ISO is usually set at 800. "Spose I should try bumping that up a notch or will the images be too noisy to be of use? PhotoDude25 . .aka . .Craig

[robertwgross]

ISO 800 is probably pretty high already on that camera. Neat Image can process out some of the color noise if that gets objectionable.

Sports mode, huh? Sports mode cranks the shutter speed up pretty fast during ambient lighting, but I'm not sure about during flash operation. I would think that it cranks the shutter speed only as high as max sync speed once the camera has sensed the flash unit there. Max sync speed may not be terribly high on that camera, maybe 1/160 to 1/200.

Sports mode should throw the aperture virtually wide open during ambient lighting, but again I'm not sure about during flash operation. I would think that it would adjust aperture to get the exposure right.

If you have a wide open aperture, then you have very little depth of field. Is it possible that your subject is moving rapidly into or out of focus? In other words, a subject running at the camera gets bad results, but a subject running right to left gets better results.

---Bob Gross---

[DocFrankenstein]

Hey craig.

Might as well spring for the 70-200 IS version. It's awesome and the shutter speeds are 4 times less than with the 70-300. This will reduce the blurring 4x

You should also try going into Av mode, setting lowest aperture and bumping the ISO. More control...

I never had a flash yet, so can't comment on that.

A good alternative to 70-200 L is the Sigma 70-200/2.8. Doesn't focus as fast, but is much cheaper. I have it *May not work with your next body.

Happy shooting

Andrew

[WestFalcon]

I'm not a sports shooter but tried last Friday night. Our stadium has decent light but I was a long way from the field. I shot my 80-200 F2.8 L lens at F2.8 and the highest shutter speed the light would allow at ASA 800. I had a lot of blurry shots. I was at about 125th of a second and that wasn't fast enough to stop the movement. I was too far away for flash. I think the 135 mm F2 lens might have been what I needed but I don't have the cash for lenses which make me no money. I would have been fine at a day game...Maybe my new 20D at ASA 1600 will be the ticket for success.

[PhotoDude25]

Hmmmmm, now that you mention it, the right to left and left to right shots did seem better than the shots coming straight at me. Much prefer to have faces in the shots but not when they are blurry. I have access to the sidelines, so positioning isn't a factor and I'm as close as I can get without actually being on the field. Daytime shots are no problem, but, these darn night shots in dim lighting are getting me frustrated.

Andrew.....How do you like that Sigma lens? Have you used it in a similar situation? Just curious

Falcon...I would think that the 20D will work just fine

[robertwgross]

At first, you mentioned something that is probably important. Sports sidelines photographers use a monopod a lot.

---Bob Gross---

[PhotoDude25]

I'd think you should be able to hand hold a 75-300mm, don't the pros ususally use like 600mm? Maybe I should try it and see what the results are, can't hurt....

[Jim_T]

Hi Bob,
Thanks for your quick response. I shoot mostly in sports mode, sometime auto but mostly sports mode. ISO is usually set at 800. "Spose I should try bumping that up a notch or will the images be too noisy to be of use? PhotoDude25 . .aka . .Craig

How do you set the ISO in sports mode ?? There's no provision for changing the ISO in the menu when you use the automatic modes. Everything is controlled by the camera.

[DocFrankenstein]

Andrew.....How do you like that Sigma lens? Have you used it in a similar situation? Just curious
It's a good lens for the price. The thing is that rebel has crippled autofocus.

When I tried photographing my brother running at me, he'd always be out of focus with the "in focus zone" just 20 cm behind him. You're gonna need something like 20D to shoot stuff like that... no matter what lens you use. IMO

But 70-200 is quite fast, sharp and nicely built.

[robertwgross]

[
How do you set the ISO in sports mode ?? There's no provision for changing the ISO in the menu when you use the automatic modes. Everything is controlled by the camera.

Jim_T, it is possible that you are thinking about the wrong camera.

The original poster has a D30, and the D30 and D60 cameras do things a bit differently from a Digital Rebel. Everything is not controlled by the camera.

One of the problems that we run into is that most of us have only one digital camera, and we concentrate on understanding it perfectly. We also know that many functions of these various Canon cameras work the same from model to model. But what we sometimes forget is that there are also some functions that differ from model to model. So, just because one camera works one way, don't assume that they all work the same way.

---Bob Gross---

[Panza]

I have the D30 and the EF 100-300 4.5-5.6 and I must say that you're lucky if you get any good shots at all in a dark field.
-The Autofocus of the D30 in dim/dark conditions leaves a lot to be desired. Probably better with manual focus.
-The 100-300 is far too slow in my opinion. 70-200 F2.8 would be better.
-Your flash will most probably have too little power.
-You should try to shoot in Av mode at full opening.
-I think ISO 800 creates too much noise already with the D30, but I guess it's better to get a clear shot which has noise than one out of focus or with motion blur.
Is it the blur from the players moving or from the camera moving ?

[PhotoDude25]

I believe on the D30 you can set the ISO separately in the sports shooting mode. At least it seems to be working. I'm going to try a number of different things this Friday night and see if anything works to my satisfaction. I'll let you all know what I discover. I'll probably hold off on the 70-200mm until I see what I can come up with otherwise. Panza, it appears that it may be a combination of both factors.

[JLS Photo]

So, what's the reason for selecting Sports mode over Tv or Av?

[PhotoDude25]

JLS........AI Servo for constant focus tracking of a specific player. In your opinion, would I be better off in Tv or Av?

[JLS Photo]

Well, admittedly, I am not familiar with the D30. That's why I inquired first as to what was the driven force for selecting Sports Mode.

But, speaking from experience with the 10D, I have never shot in the program modes, because I tend to prefer the manual modes.

Generally speaking, when I shoot sports, I tend to use Av (aperture priority) mode. I will normally shoot wide open or one stop down. I then select my desired autofocus point, if needed, and also my AF mode. The 10D, unlike the 300D (D30?), has a setting where I can select AI Servo mode, which I do. I also set my drive to 'continuous'.

I don't like the program modes because they tend to do more than I want them to do--for instance, in some case, they increase the ISO to get the desired shutter speed. Although I ~may~ arrive at the same settings on my own, I prefer to make those decisions myself (i.e. should I increase ISO or decrease shutter speed?).

Anyway, if I may, I'd suggest really getting a good handle on these settings before you start putting down $750+ for a 70-200 2.8. In the end, I think you will in fact need a fast lens, but in the meantime you will garner a lot of knowledge and experience with your camera.

BTW, you should realize that even pros sometimes struggle with night high school football games. These shoots are often poorly lit, with fast action, and long distances. Not easy, at all.

Good luck.

[PhotoDude25]

I'll have to see if I can figure out the resizing procedure for posting shots on here and get a couple up for critique. That might give everyone a little better idea what I mean.

[ron chappel]

Alot of the problem is the dim field.The pro's shooting with 600mm lenses are on seriously bright football fields,etc.You are going to have to do something big.Little steps like going for any f2.8 lens probably won't be enough :shock: That will buy you two stops of shutter speed at the most

To get reasonable shots with some background light you will need a lens at least a few stops brighter.You just can't get lenses that fast so you will also have to choose between blured arms and legs (slow shutter,image stabilizer,fast lens,moderate flash)
or no background (bigger flash,faster lens)

All in all you have to spend big on a lens,get a monster flash or something inbetween

I think i got that right-abit tired tonight.

Not long back i tried night sports.The court/field looked very bright but there was zero chance of getting anything remotely sharp with the 75-300.Focus was very slow too-as i think you've found also.

[robertwgross]

AI Servo for constant focus tracking of a specific player.

That is certainly the most obvious reason.

---Bob Gross---

[danphoto1]

You definitly need a f2.8 lens I love my Sigma 120 - 300 I use it for basket ball volleybal land soccer. i had to shoot under similar conditions at the women's nationas In Paradise Valley AZ, I tried flash with the 100-400 and the result was poor. I kicked up ISO setting to 1600 and used the 120 - 300 Siogma f2.8 and it did very well. Oh and of cours I used a monopod. some places will let ypu rent a lens . It might be a good idea to try one out first if you can find a place. I used a sigma 2.8 300 as a rental nice lens :shock:

[Mark Kemp]

Alot of the problem is the dim field.

All in all you have to spend big on a lens,get a monster flash or something inbetween

I agree with Ron - you are trying something pretty hard here and even pros with monster lenses etc will struggle a bit.

You may have to settle for the highest ISO you can get and live with the noise and then a faster lens will make it a bit better and so will IS or a monopod. But don't expect miracles.

Also don't forget that light from a flash falls off fast the further away a subject is. Twice the distance = 1/4 the power.

Basically your max aperture is f5.6 and the guide number of your flash is 42 therefore flash range at ISO100 is nominally about 8 meters. (roughly speaking, actually it will vary with focal length and shutter speed as well) This will double at ISO 800 giving you about 16m useful range (give or take a couple of meters)

What I am saying is don't expect the flash to light up the whole pitch like daylight, it will only be really useful when the players are pretty close.

I would also advise caution with flash, if I were playing someone firing a flash at me would be pretty annoying!

Finally I also have a D30 and you can set AI servo using the AF button to the left of the top plate LCD and the wheel behind the shutter button, even when you are in Av or TV mode, so I would stay away from sports mode and use the max aperture in AV mode as advised by JLS

[droosan]

On my budget: a EF200/2.8L and a 550ex on AI Servo and M. Put the aperture on 2.8 and mess around with the ISO and shutter to get the kind of movement blur you want.

[PhotoDude25]

Well, I think I figured out that the lighting at the football field I was having trouble at was mainly the problem. I was at another field last night which has much better lighting and started out shooting at f4.5 in Av mode and the shots were very blurry. I right away changed to sports mode and the full auto and the remaining shots came out beautifully. On the field in question, they only had about half the lighting towers lit and last night's had full lighting. So, it has to be the field lighting. I guess with the bad lighting you just have to play around with your settings and take your chances with getting a keeper.

[robertwgross]

You go and find the field facilities maintenance guy and persuade him to turn on all of the field lights.

---Bob Gross---

[Mark Kemp]

It could be a bit tricky carrying a couple of extra lighting towers in your kit bag :D