Yay! 420EX is here!

[RinkRat]

I know I had asked the other day about the 550EX, but I just couldn't justify the extra $120 in my mind.

I ordered the 420ex(+ Omnibounce) yesterday @ 2:57pm, and it was on my doorstep today @ 3:17pm. Yay B&H! :D

Now, I can blind everyone @ my brother's wedding rehearsal tomorrow. Along with the Wedding/Reception on Saturday. :twisted:

Ok, I'm off to pickup batteries, & take some pics. Any words of wisdom for a flash newbie?

Those cats had better run & hide from me now. :twisted:

[MediaMagic]

I know I had asked the other day about the 550EX, but I just couldn't justify the extra $120 in my mind.



You will soon enough! :twisted:

Just kidding (mostly), the 420ex is an excellent flash. Have fun!

[ejwebb]

I have the 420 and like it - enjoy! I see you have the hack - make use of the Jump button for FEC - you will probably need it. I have it set for +2/3 which generally works but I always check the histogram because sometimes I don't need it depending on the subject and surroundings.

Practice before you go - even with the omnibouce the flash is very harsh straight on if you are relatively close to the subject and you kind of have to play with the angle of the flash if you are in a large room with a high ceiling that you can't bounce from. I sometimes use a white index card attached to the back of the flash with a rubber band to bounce/diffuse the light instead - easy to carry and flexible.

Beware of shadows thrown by the flash when the background is close to the subjects and you turn the camera around into portrait mode - use tilt and swivel to bounce the light off the ceiling if you can.

You also want to experiment with the flash sync speed custom function you got with the hack. You can set it to always use a 1/200 exposure time (best in low light if your subjects are moving - but creates dark backgrounds) or to auto where the camera decides the shutter speed based on ambient light (provides more normal lighted backgrounds but can create motion blur of subjects if they are not stationary). Play with it and you will see what I mean.

I am by no means an expert - still trying to figure out flash photography - but these are the issues I am struggling with. Hope this helps!!

[Adam Hicks]

As far as setting FEC goes, what does the +2/3 do? Would this slightly overexpose or underexpose the image? I had problems using my 420ex when it was either on Av or Portrait mode (can't remember which) my images were all overexposed.

I'm shooting a couple's portrait tomorrow and need to know what to do with FEC before I go in! I'm using the Lumiquest pocket bouncer and a 22" photoflex reflector on a light stand as a basic lighting setup.

Any assistance there is appreciated!

Adam

[MediaMagic]

As far as setting FEC goes, what does the +2/3 do? Would this slightly overexpose or underexpose the image? I had problems using my 420ex when it was either on Av or Portrait mode (can't remember which) my images were all overexposed.

I'm shooting a couple's portrait tomorrow and need to know what to do with FEC before I go in! I'm using the Lumiquest pocket bouncer and a 22" photoflex reflector on a light stand as a basic lighting setup.

Any assistance there is appreciated!

Adam

Well, the objective is to gain a correct exposure. The + 2/3 would effectively increase the exposure (overexpose the current settings) by 2/3 of a stop. If your shots were overexposed, use -n/3 FEC or EC until the histogram looks the way you want.

[Adam Hicks]

Ok so that's what I figured... but riddle me this... what's the difference between adjusting the exposure with FEC settings and using the standard +/- exposure adjustment?

Thanks!
Adam

[MediaMagic]

Ok so that's what I figured... but riddle me this... what's the difference between adjusting the exposure with FEC settings and using the standard +/- exposure adjustment?

Thanks!
Adam

FEC adjusts the exposure with the flash output, EC (standard +/-) adjusts the exposure via the camera.

[Adam Hicks]

Ok thanks. Last one I promise... so does FEC actually adjust the amount of light output of the flash? I'd read the manual but it doesn't discuss FEC ;)

[MediaMagic]

Ok thanks. Last one I promise... so does FEC actually adjust the amount of light output of the flash? I'd read the manual but it doesn't discuss FEC ;)

Yes... lol, yeah, you won't find those instructions in the 300D manual. Basically you can eithier throw more or less light (FEC), or catch more or less light (EC). With the type of photography I do, it really makes no difference which I use. If I'm consistently 1/3 overexposed using flash, I'll dial down the flash (on a 550ex where I can plug it right into the flash itself).

If the condition has changed, e.g., trying to expose properly for one shot, say someone has entered the frame wearing a white or black outfit, I'll use EC for that shot. Does that make sense?

edit: there are times when both are active. like in the previous example, I may have the flash set at - 1/3, and then spin the EC up 1/3 (or more) for a single shot.. so you may find yourself using combinations of both quite frequently.

I tend to use FEC to balance, and EC to control.

[Adam Hicks]

makes perfect sense thanks again. I use EC all the time, sometimes I'll even bracket when the conditions are tough, but I've found that sometimes the 420ex is too bright, and if I can dial it down a tad simply with FEC then that will certainly save me some post processing (which is sometimes not possible if you wash out the color!)

I've been doing mostly outdoor and motorsports photography, rarely needing the flash, but tomorrow I have to shoot a married couple and this is important for good shots!

Thanks again,
Adam

[ejwebb]

Sorry I have been away for a bit but it looks like MediaMagic is taking care of you. Obviously the FEC setting depends on the situation - that's why I always check the histogram. It's just that I have found the camera/flash combination tends to underexpose in most situations so I kind of default to the +2/3 to start and adjust from there based on histogram readings.

So MediaMagic - you say the that FEC actually increases/decreases the power of the flash? I never thought about how it worked. This is interesting. Also, I thought I had to use FEC and EC separately and did not know that both were active in flash photography. So what does EC actually do? I assume it controls the amount of light registering on the sensor but does it do that through aperture or exposure time?

Learn something new everyday!!

[Adam Hicks]

ha you know I use EC all the time, as mentioned above, but I've yet to experiment to see if bumping exposure opens the aperture or lengthens the shutter time or both... obviously if I'm at f2.8 in Av mode on my 2.8 lens, it's going to lengthen the shutter time, but I wonder what it does if I'm at F8 1/500 for example.

Anyone know before I go experiment and look at EXIF?

[MediaMagic]

So MediaMagic - you say the that FEC actually increases/decreases the power of the flash? I never thought about how it worked. This is interesting. Also, I thought I had to use FEC and EC separately and did not know that both were active in flash photography. So what does EC actually do? I assume it controls the amount of light registering on the sensor but does it do that through aperture or exposure time?

Learn something new everyday!!

Okay, FEC controls *only* the output of the flash, it has no bearing on the ambient light exposure. EC controls how much light the camera catches. So you can do both at the same time. You can adjust the power of the flash up or down, and you can adjust the amount of light caught by the sensor up or down (combination of ambient and flash). Maybe it would be better to look at EC as "Total Compensation", or perhaps "Overall Compensation".

The result of is cummulative. If you dial up the flash by say +2/3, and adjust the EC - 2/3, they cancel each other out. This cummulative result is why both go hand in hand in. If your flash is blasting way too brightly, the adjust it down for overall balance of the flash. But, that becomes your "starting point". Then, you use Overall Compensation to get the exposure you want frame to frame.

You could do it all with FEC if you wanted, or all with EC. Instead of adjusting your flash - 2/3, you could adjust EC by - 2/3 and use that as your "balance for this shoot", and then adjust EC up or down from that - 2/3 starting point. OR, you could adjust FEC for every shot and not touch EC at all.

The result will be the same either way. It's just easier for me to "zero" or balance the flash, and then use EC from there. That's where the combination comes into the 'picture', (pun not intended, oh who I am kidding.. pun definately intended).

Is this making sense? if not, I'll try to find a link to explain it better than I can.

Edit: another thing to remember too is the synch speed which can affect how compensation works.

I'll find a good link on this and post again later... does anyone happen to have a good tutorial on FEC vs EC handy?


Take care,

[RinkRat]

I got a flash yaaaaaaaaaayyyy!!!

I got a flash yaaaaaaaaaayyyy!!!

sorry, feel like Special Ed after reading some of the replies. :oops:


Actually, I just learned quite a bit from this thread.

Thank you for the quick lessons

Ok, I READ THE MANUAL, and took ~ 100 shots tonight. Not much else I can do at this point.

2 camera batteries charged, extra set of AA's for the flash, 2 empty 512 cards, cleaned all 3 lenses. Wish me luck tomorrow. :)

[ejwebb]

Thanks. It all makes perfect sense except I am still unsure how EC works. I know the sensor is catching less light but is that because, while the flash sync speed is set for 1/200, the shutter actually stays open for a bit more or less depending on your EC setting? Or is there some other mechanism to achieve this? Not that it really matters - but inquiring minds want to know!

Thanks again for a great discussion!!

[robertwgross]

Exposure compensation works based on the photographer's eye.

If you have a normal, average, 18% gray scene, then your eye tells you to accept the metering, shoot in any automatic mode, and it all works fine. However, if the photographer's eye looks at the central subject and sees a lot of white, then you know that the camera's meter is going to see that and make the exposure render it as a gray-white. The photographer's eye knows better than that, so the photographer cranks in some exposure compensation depending on how far he thinks the meter is getting fooled.

That "cranking in" of exposure compensation is merely a turning up or down of the meter reading before it sets the exposure values.

I know that pure white snow needs an exposure compensation setting of about +1.5 (or, my guess is that its white is 1.5 stops whiter than 18% gray).

---Bob Gross---

[ejwebb]

Okay, I get it. In other words - if I take a picture with no EC and then dial in +2/3 and take a picture without modifying any other settings, the picture will be exactly the same. However, the meter readings will be different - so it is the potograper adjusting the aperture or exposure to get the meter reading "correct" that changes the amoutn of light hitting the sensor. Now it seems so obvious - I think because I often use Av mode and the camera makes the exposure adjustment for me I had never thought about what it meant!!

Thanks everyone!!

[robertwgross]

Okay, I get it. In other words - if I take a picture with no EC and then dial in +2/3 and take a picture without modifying any other settings, the picture will be exactly the same. However, the meter readings will be different - so it is the potograper adjusting the aperture or exposure to get the meter reading "correct" that changes the amoutn of light hitting the sensor. Now it seems so obvious - I think because I often use Av mode and the camera makes the exposure adjustment for me I had never thought about what it meant!!

Thanks everyone!!

Fundamentally, you did not get it.

When you dial in some exposure compensation, you are telling the camera that its meter reading needs to be fudged before it is used to set up actual exposure values. Exactly how the camera does that depends on which mode it is in, e.g. Tv or Av.

---Bob Gross---

[ejwebb]

robertwgross wrote:

Fundamentally, you did not get it.

When you dial in some exposure compensation, you are telling the camera that its meter reading needs to be fudged before it is used to set up actual exposure values. Exactly how the camera does that depends on which mode it is in, e.g. Tv or Av.

While I may not have articulated it well, I think I did get it.

If the camera is in M mode and I have used EC to "fudge" the meter reading - then I must adjust aperture or exposure time to properly expose under the "fudged" meter reading. If the camera is in Tv mode, it automatically adjusts the aperture or, if in Av mode it automatically adjusts the exposure time, to achieve the proper exposure under the "fudged" meter reading.

Let me know if I am still missing something here. Thanks!

[MediaMagic]

Here is a visual beginner's primer I put together on Exposure Compensation several months ago. It doesn't go into FEC vs EC, but it gives a good visual primer on the white to grey shift Bob is describing.



edit: here's the link I seemed to neglect to post for some reason.



http://www.mediamagicnw.com/ectest/ec.htm

[robertwgross]

While I may not have articulated it well, I think I did get it.

If the camera is in M mode and I have used EC to "fudge" the meter reading - then I must adjust aperture or exposure time to properly expose under the "fudged" meter reading. If the camera is in Tv mode, it automatically adjusts the aperture or, if in Av mode it automatically adjusts the exposure time, to achieve the proper exposure under the "fudged" meter reading.

Let me know if I am still missing something here. Thanks!

To find what you are missing, please refer to your DR manual, page 75.

"1. Turn the Mode Dial to any Creative Zone mode except <M>."

So, fundamentally, you missed it and you didn't articulate it well, either.

---Bob Gross---

[robertwgross]

Here is a visual beginner's primer I put together on Exposure Compensation several months ago. It doesn't go into FEC vs EC, but it gives a good visual primer on the white to grey shift Bob is describing.

Where is here?

---Bob Gross---

[MediaMagic]

Here is a visual beginner's primer I put together on Exposure Compensation several months ago. It doesn't go into FEC vs EC, but it gives a good visual primer on the white to grey shift Bob is describing.

Where is here?

---Bob Gross---


ah, dammit. It may help to actually put the link in the post, huh?

sorry guys, here it is again so you don't have to scroll up

http://www.mediamagicnw.com/ectest/ec.htm

[ejwebb]

So, fundamentally, you missed it and you didn't articulate it well, either.

---Bob Gross---

Thanks, Bob, for so kindly setting me straight - I did not realize EC was not available in M mode - but it is obvious when I have the camera in my hands in M mode and change settings.

It is also obvious that changing EC does, in fact, change the aperture setting in Tv mode and the exposure in Av mode. While I have read the manual a few times I did not have it or the camera with me earlier today and this is obviously something that did not completely stick - I am sure it will now.

[ejwebb]

sorry guys, here it is again so you don't have to scroll up

http://www.mediamagicnw.com/ectest/ec.htm
_________________
-David-

Thanks, David, for a great tutorial.

[robertwgross]

David, that is a nice article. I believe you showed it to us once before, and I thought it was nice then also.

Strangely enough, the part that caught my eye was the green straws.

---Bob Gross---

[robertwgross]

Thanks, Bob, for so kindly setting me straight - I did not realize EC was not available in M mode - ...

I won't claim to be a Digital Rebel expert, but at least I read the manual.

But then, there are Digital Rebels and hacked Digital Rebels now. I can't keep it all straight.

---Bob Gross---

[MediaMagic]

Thanks for the compliments... compensation is something I've been practicing and practicing for quite some time in pursuit of that ever elusive perfection.

Thanks Bob, if the eye of a pro was drawn to the straws then the shot actually worked. Although for the tutorial I focused on the cups, lids and "white", for the shot I was trying to create an artistic theme of "green" with the straws as the eye candy. The straws and labels are the subjects and the cups and lids are just props that give the green relevance. Winter around here leads to some seriously warped thought patterns, and a commercial for Starbucks it appears.

Adam, ejwebb, Rink
I do need to clarify something after going through and re-reading the thread. If the flash is your primary light source, I mean like "This is a flash photography shot" type of flash in P mode, then you will have to make your compensation adjustments with FEC. The flash is throwing so much light in such a short pulse in these types of shots that adjusting EC with Av (the default in P mode with flash) will not have the effect you're looking for. In fact, the histograms will most likely look identical from one shot to the next even if you change by + or - 2 full stops on the dial.

The type of photography I've been seriously practicing lately has been a balanced light type of thing (fill flash) where I'm trying to blend the flash into the ambient light sources so that it's virtually indistinguishable as a separate light source (this really is easier said than done, it does take some serious practice to be able to just walk in and nail it - I'm still at the level of walking in and getting it in the ballpark and adjusting from there). FEC controls the power of the flash and EC controls the background or "everything else" light. Both working together give the overall control of the image exposure. In my mind, I knew what I was trying to get across, but I wrote it in a confusing and incorrect way. My apologies.