Under cutting the competition

[IndyJeff]

A while back Timmy posted a thread about a response he saw on SportsShooters because he was angry about one guys response. Well your looking at another angry guy.

I went yesterday to shoot a youth football league. I have had this arranged with the league since sometime in August. I get there and it was a hoot, 4-5 years olds playing flag football. Well in the second game I see this other guy come out on the field with a camera. No biggie, dad with a 10D. Well the next game starts and he is still there. Ok so this is another shooter, still no biggie. I don't mind competition. Well the last game is over and we spoke, casually a couple of times during the morning. I walk up to the concession stand and what do I find? His cards on top of mine. This pissed me off some but I let it go. When I went to the director to tell him I was leaving and try to get a handle on when I would be coming back for the second date I mentioned this guy was out there. Seems he is a friend of another board member who told him he could shoot, which the director was not happy about either. And this wasn't his first time out there. Ok, still no biggie, I didn't even mention that he put his cards on top of mine. I did pick one up and checked out his site when I got home. He is selling his stuff dirt cheap. I can't compete with that. If I would have known they had another guy there already I wouldn't even had gone. I handed out 100 photo passes, for a free print, at a cost of $1.39 each to me. So it cost me $139.00 to go to this event. Now how many of my prints will be bought when this guy is selling his 4x6's for $1 ? A stinkin dollar? I can't compete with that, basically he is giving his work away for free. My costs on a 4x6, with 10% league rebate, are above a dollar. I wonder how he pays taxes on his earnings? LOL I'll bet he doesn't and I'll bet he gives nothing back to the league either.
I also sent en email to the director this morning decling to return but said I would leave their galleries up until next Sunday at 11pm so people can use their coupons I gave them, adn asked that he inform the coaches and parents they need to get their prints by then. I will stand behind my offer.

So now you wanna know why this guy on SS was so ticked off? I know.

Just remember, if your going out to do some event stuff, charge for your work dammitt. Don't give it away.

[end of rant]

[Belmondo]

Jeff:
I get it.

In fact, I don't think I've ever not gotten it, and that's why I will never put myself in the position of doing for free those things from which others derive their livelihood. Unfortunately, we have a bunch of people (some of whom post here and I honestly don't wish to offend) that want to sell photos purely to pay for their hobby. I fail to see a major commitment from them, either in time spent learning the profession OR in the capital outlay most professionals make for their equipment.

Others are victims of unrealistic belief that this is an easy thing to do. I really believe a big part of the problem is the camera industry’s practice of overselling expectations. The common belief, especially among uninformed amateurs is that the camera alone can be relied upon to produce professional results; all you need is the $1500 - $2000 price of admission, and you’re good to go.

This is really no different than the discussion we’ve seen about wedding photography. People that do it professionally can’t help but be bemused by the large number of people who feel all they have to do is show up at the wedding with a camera and a flash (preferably one that's built into the camera).

It sounds to me like the fellow that’s undercutting you falls squarely into this category of wannabe professionals. Whether his motives are altruistic or not, you’re well-advised to avoid a spitting contest with him. Clearly he lacks either business sense or ethics --- perhaps both.

[timmyquest]

This is partly why i dont want to get into this as a career.

At our local football game last friday there were four photographers there

Me(canon)-shooting for my friends (the team) and myself, and i'll donate photos to the highschool for their yearbook.

Local shooter 1(nikon)-my friends mom who sells her photos to our local paper (by local i mean out of our town of 20,000 people)

Local shooter 2(nikon)-My new boss, he also sells to our local paper and also donates photos to the yearbook

Area shooter 1 (canon)- I think he is the Sr. Photo editor of our countywide paper (The Northwest Harald)

Two nikons, two canons (two 1D's he had a Mark II of course...and a 300mm f/2.8 :( ).

The point is none of us were really treding on eachothers turf. We all wanted to be there, we all shared photos, and even some tips.

Being on the field by the press guys (There were 4 reporters roaming the sidelines as well) was a blast, and an experience i wouldnt mind doing again...however if it meant getting food on my plate i just dont know if it would be so fun.

Sorry to hear about your expereince though :(

[Vegas Poboy]

This is happening everywhere & it's killing the pro's profit margin due to people don't know what & how to charge for services. Most people not all looks for a bargin and not the skills of a good photographer. Don't cut your prices to compete just show better & higher quality product. Also when your contracting your services get it in writing you are the exclusive photographer for that event. That will shut out phonies and people will request you over others with time.
My partner last spring lost out on a major job and it was to under bidding do to the quality the other company provided we got the contract back this fall & most likely won't lose it until we slip. Don't give up just force others to raise thier standard or put thier cameras ack in the bag. :twisted:

[IndyJeff]

Well Timmy I knew you would be one of the first to respond. Yes it is kind of neat being on the sidelines and from what you described I would have no problem with it. You are not undercutting anyone. Everyone shooting has their clients. Now if you solicit their clients for dirt cheap then I would have a problem with it but, I know you wouldn't do that.


Tom, that is exactly why I don't do weddings. I have done a few, all of which if I wouldn't have then there wouldn't have been any photos of the wedding. Except fore uncle Ted and his 1.6meg digicam.


I posted a new image to my site in their gallery. It is a custom border print that is pretty cool. I am going to offer custom borders for this league. I was really hoping to wait until next spring to begin offering these but, this guy has forced my hand. I can't take a hit of $139 in coupons plus 4 hours of shooting and about 6 hours editting and uploading. Yeah it is that easy, 10 hours work for a typical shoot. Days when I was at softball games for 8 hours it was about 10 hours work on the pc. It ain't easy boys. It is fun, challenging, and pretty rewarding when you see someone out in public and they say, "Hey your pictures of XXXX game was just great. You sure take nice pictures."

[timmyquest]

Well Timmy I knew you would be one of the first to respond. Yes it is kind of neat being on the sidelines and from what you described I would have no problem with it. You are not undercutting anyone. Everyone shooting has their clients. Now if you solicit their clients for dirt cheap then I would have a problem with it but, I know you wouldn't do that.


You see that is the problem right there. If i went out to sell my picture i can honestly tell you thta i wouldnt expect to make all that much money and i would most likely charge them less then typical.

It's not that people are deciding to charge less then the average pro, it's who is doing that low charging. People like me who dont really care if they get paid at all!

If i'm a guy trying to make a living then i'll do whatever i need to do to make a better living then you, if that means charging $1 a print to run you out of town, then fine...but thats usually not the guy who is doing it. It is a guy with a hobby.

Although in your case Jeff, what he did was perhaps a little unethical, but i'm saying this perhaps mostly in defenese of you as i'm not in the profession. If you were supose to be the only guy, then you should have been.

[XXWoodmanXX]

Tim,

I can certianly appreciate your POV on the situation, as it is much more conservative that I would've expected from you (no offense, strictly complimentary)

But, seeing that I would be one of these potential "tredders" in the field, I need to dish my $.02 on the topic.

I've always stated that this is a "hobby" for me. It's not something that I'm looking to get $$$ out of, already having a good job and all. If there's 4 or 5 photographers at the state fair (for example) and I'm taking shots that I'm willing to give away for dirt-cheap or even FREE, why should I have professionals "mean-mugging" me just because I'm a consumer on a prosumer's turf, seeking to get some good shots for my OWN personal gratification? That, of course, is my ultimate goal.

IE: I just got back from the CEDIA Expo in Indianapolis, IN and I got some GREAT shots that I'm willing to e-mail to Stereo Review, Residential Systems, Home Theater Magazine, etc. Then again,......I'm sure it's not anything that they haven't previewed already. :lol:

[timmyquest]

I think the problem is that people don’t do it for gratification of getting a good shot; I think a lot of people do it for the gratification of getting their shot in the public eye. Getting attention for their shot...which is fine, but why take away someone’s money for this self gratification.

It's all about ethics to me, there are no rules and there most likely wont be any rules. My friends mom for example, i wanted to send some photos to the paper but then thought to myself "I dont want to take her income away". Again, it's ethics. The only reason i thought about sending my photos into the paper is so people can see my pictures. Not to make a buck, not to help the paper (there, i'll admit that).

That isnt to say that if i have a picture of a WR horizontal in the air diving into the endzone of the game winning catch that i wouldn’t handle it differently. But i'll never sell an average shot to a paper when there are other equally average shots being sold by people who deserve it more then i do. (The pro, who has done it for years, and relies on that to get their children through school)

I cant honestly think of another profession where a professionals income is hurt by a hobbyist...i'll try and work it out, but i cant think of any.

*EDIT*

For the record, my beef with the SS thread is that the guy was mad because he blamed the issues we're speaking of on Canon releasing cameras that are too pro-like.

[XXWoodmanXX]

Honestly, I feel that, if I were approached from one of these professionals looking to get some income from the very same situation, and they confronted me in an appropriate and tactful manner, I'd be more-than-happy to step aside and allow them to submit their photos over my own.

Granted, it IS a matter of ethics, but I feel it'd be satisfaction of karma more than anything. :)

[CoolToolGuy]

My objection is less with the price under-cutting but more with the competition in an agreed-upon arrangement.

I have been a parent and officer in a recreation council sports program, and it is in the best interest of the program to provide the best value for the families of the participants. If a parent or friend of a parent wants to provide a service (photos, refreshments, uniforms, whatever) for free or a reduced price, so much the better - that is one of the things that makes for a better program. However, if an arrangement is made for someone to provide that service and is then undermined by the 'free dad', that is unacceptable. Next year (or next game, whatever the arrangement) all bets are off, but they should honor their commitment. Who knows, maybe the 'free dad' is getting his photo paper for free from the owner of the local camera store, who has a kid in the program.

My 2 cents.

[ilya]

Jeff

I posted in that previous thread on this topic as well

This phenomena is an unfortunate byproduct of advances in technology and elimination of barriers to entry to what previously was a closed loop profession.

There are no easy answers here. Its not going to get better either. I'm just being honest (or perhaps delusional as I don't do this for a living, its just my opinion).

This will reshuffle the lower end photography forever. Stuff like local football games and junior soccer will likely become the domain of the inexpensive / free prosumer / amateur.

However, the high end work, the stuff that requires your kind of unique skillset and experience will continue to be unique. I.e. not commoditized.

This will shakeout the photog profession a bit. The strong will survive though. Be strong :D

Ilya

[IndyJeff]

Suppling a shot for a newspaper is one thing. If you have a shot their photographer doesn't then by all means submit it.


Think about this, why would you want to go out and do a job for less than what the prevailing wage is? Ok, so it is your hobby and you enjoy it, fine. Then if it is a hobby, don't try to turn it into a business. Make up your mind, is it your side job or your hobby. I don't mind if the guy is doing the same event as I am, as long as when it comes to selling the shots it is on a level playing field. Selling for 20% of what your competition is does not even come close to an even playing field.

As far as getting an exclusive contract, they don't hold up. The best ground you have to stand on is if the event organizers don't want the other guy taking pictures of THEIR event. They have invested the time, money and resources in setting this up so they should have a say so over who gets in and who doesn't. Sometimes you may have to pay a vendor fee, that basically is what my kick back to the leagues are. I might ask what kind of a kickback is this other guy giving. I am betting he is giving back nothing.
So now, who is really hurt by the dirt cheap hobby guy? I am but that is only for one day's work. The league will not be getting money from me so who does that hurt? In the end, the league and the kids.

Lets look at this from another angle, how long do you think you would last if you come wheeling in with your portable hot dog trailer and set up in the parking lot? Hot dogs 50 cents, cokes for a quarter, candy bars a quarter. Do you think the league would say, "Well it is a public event and there is nothing we can do about it." Hell no, they would tell the guy to pack it up and move along because he is hurting their business.


You know the real sad part, I got an email from some gal who found my website while surfing, someway, and asked if I could give her any tips on getting started in this business. She is in Wisconsin so she is of no competition to me but guess what? My days of free advice and helping others in getting started is over with. I can't afford to be Mr. Nice Guy anymore.

[Vegas Poboy]

My days of free advice and helping others in getting started is over with. I can't afford to be Mr. Nice Guy anymore.

Jeff I agree with you on that statement.
I started off as a hobbiest & went on to side jobs, I'm blessed with a fulltime job. Going to school to get most of my technical knowledge has advanced me a great deal over a short period of time. One of the main things they have taught us is to get paid for your work, closest to market value as possible. I value that over anyone who trys to pick your mind to bump you out of the way with the cheapest price. I've even met & was able to go out with other Pro's who did not mind teaching the business because it keeps the market @ a Pro average and there is plenty of good solid work. Sometimes we get called on to shoot for others who started there own show without total knowledge & ask more questions than shooting themselves, some us has made agreements to shoot the way our contractors do. When we get together we show off our total skills in order to keep & recruit our clients. In fact one guy I used to shoot for hired offered me a partnership instead of competing agaisnt me. :D It is a win/win situation.

There is nothing wrong with passing along good info, this forum has helped me a great deal and I enjoy passing along some knowledge that I've obtained but I hope that some people would think wisely on pricing for thier services. Even as a hobby they should look at the value of equipment & knowledge. Make it worth your time, not to rip anyone off but think about if someone was doing thier job as a hobby & lowering prices.

I still believe in good quality work will prevail over the overnighters

[CoolToolGuy]

Suppling a shot for a newspaper is one thing. If you have a shot their photographer doesn't then by all means submit it.


Think about this, why would you want to go out and do a job for less than what the prevailing wage is? Ok, so it is your hobby and you enjoy it, fine. Then if it is a hobby, don't try to turn it into a business. Make up your mind, is it your side job or your hobby. I don't mind if the guy is doing the same event as I am, as long as when it comes to selling the shots it is on a level playing field. Selling for 20% of what your competition is does not even come close to an even playing field.

As far as getting an exclusive contract, they don't hold up. The best ground you have to stand on is if the event organizers don't want the other guy taking pictures of THEIR event. They have invested the time, money and resources in setting this up so they should have a say so over who gets in and who doesn't. Sometimes you may have to pay a vendor fee, that basically is what my kick back to the leagues are. I might ask what kind of a kickback is this other guy giving. I am betting he is giving back nothing.
So now, who is really hurt by the dirt cheap hobby guy? I am but that is only for one day's work. The league will not be getting money from me so who does that hurt? In the end, the league and the kids.

Lets look at this from another angle, how long do you think you would last if you come wheeling in with your portable hot dog trailer and set up in the parking lot? Hot dogs 50 cents, cokes for a quarter, candy bars a quarter. Do you think the league would say, "Well it is a public event and there is nothing we can do about it." Hell no, they would tell the guy to pack it up and move along because he is hurting their business.


You know the real sad part, I got an email from some gal who found my website while surfing, someway, and asked if I could give her any tips on getting started in this business. She is in Wisconsin so she is of no competition to me but guess what? My days of free advice and helping others in getting started is over with. I can't afford to be Mr. Nice Guy anymore.

Most sports programs at this level are non-profit organizations that are trying to provide the kids with the sport experience while not breaking the bank of the families with exhorbitant fees. In the program I was involved with, there were many examples of free or reduced services for the good of the program. If a dad who is a carpenter donates his time to help build the concession stand, is it harming the dad? If a dad who works for a bakery manages to gather up all the packages of day-old hotdog rolls to bring to the concession stand that night so that they can sell the hotdogs cheaper and still make a decent profit, is that such a bad thing? And certainly, many positions within the organization are filled by folks who donate their time for the good of their children, sometimes using the same skills from their day jobs. If the photo-dad wants to give his time away, how is that a bad thing?

I'm sorry, photography is not a magic field where only professionals can perform and must be compensated at the going rate.

[mson]

Jeff, I really enjoy your work and have enjoyed a few "conversations" we have had in the forum so don't take anything I say personally. Have you ever bought anything from B&H? Or do you always pay full price at your local shop? It is IMPOSSIBLE for a local shop to compete with B&H price wise, yet I would say 99% of people on this forum buy from B&H.

I understand your frustration and I think the "friend of a friend" end around, and him putting his cards over yours was low class. However, if he wants to sell his prints for .01 he has every right to do so. It's a free market and we have to take the good with the bad. How many posts are on this forum telling everyone about the "amazing low price on CF cards"? What about the thousands of people who have lost their jobs because someone over in India will do the same job for $1/hr? Is it fair? I guess it depends on what side you are on...

As for those of us who only want to make a little extra cash to pay for our hobby. How is that wrong? I am no where near a pro so why would I charge pro prices? Is it fair to a potential "client" that I charge pro prices and give them novice photos? If I could charge $1000 a photo, I would. I can see the pros side of this conversation, but if you are going to blame someone blame the customer. There is a big difference between a pro's work and a novice’s work. Some people are willing to pay, others are not or are not able to.

[IndyJeff]

Most sports programs at this level are non-profit organizations that are trying to provide the kids with the sport experience while not breaking the bank of the families with exhorbitant fees. In the program I was involved with, there were many examples of free or reduced services for the good of the program. If a dad who is a carpenter donates his time to help build the concession stand, is it harming the dad? If a dad who works for a bakery manages to gather up all the packages of day-old hotdog rolls to bring to the concession stand that night so that they can sell the hotdogs cheaper and still make a decent profit, is that such a bad thing? And certainly, many positions within the organization are filled by folks who donate their time for the good of their children, sometimes using the same skills from their day jobs. If the photo-dad wants to give his time away, how is that a bad thing?

Yes donating is a good thing I agree, I ran a basketball league for 3 years and was on the board 2 more before that.
How is my giving 10% of total sales back to the league helping them when sales are down because of this clod? He is not a dad donating his time, he is charging, very little but he is charging. If he was a dad giving the shots away I wouldn't be as pissed off as I am. This is just lowering the value of all photography.

I'm sorry, photography is not a magic field where only professionals can perform and must be compensated at the going rate.

Yes but photography is one of several fields where anybody can get a camera and go out and compete with the pros doing it and this guy is barely even being compensated. I guess some people don't mind working for 1970 minimum wage rates these days. Most of the time you won't have the quality the pro offers but, who cares right? Well in 15 years when little Johnny grows up and gets married and starts a family of his own, lets see what a bargin they got by buying from the "Bargin Bob Photographers" when they go to show Johnny Jr pictures of daddy when he played little league.
Ever have a problem with something you bought when you got home? Will Barign Bob make good on it? A lady ordered prints from me of her grandson playing football two weeks ago. Saturday of labor day weekend I get a call. She ordered the wrong image. One of them wasn't her grandson. What would Bargin Bob do? "Sorry 'bout yer lucky lady, try again" maybe? Me, I told her keep the order as is, bring the wrong ones to the next game after she gets them and I will exchange them for the right ones. The wrong ones? I have already talked with the guy who son is in the picture. He gets it at no charge, I am betting he will buy more as the year goes by too.

How would you feel if someone came to your job and asked your boss if they could do it because they hit the lottery and don't need the money, they just want something to do and they used to be in the field and will work for free? Will you still be allowed to preform and be compensated at the going rate?

[CyberDyneSystems]

Again.. we are back to quality Vs. cost.

It's great if a family member provides the refreshment for less than the caterer.. but if the cheaper drinks are foul in some way.. then is it a bargain?

Yes. we can gladly pay less for Uncle Joes photos.. but will they be of the same quality as Jeff's... probably not.

So it's all a matter of what people are willing to pay for and if those same people know enough to judge what is of higher quality and therefore value.

These days in this country.. where people DO feel that anyone can pick up a pricey camera and "shoot like a pro" ... it seems that people do not know enough to judge quality. :(

[mson]

How would you feel if someone came to your job and asked your boss if they could do it because they hit the lottery and don't need the money, they just want something to do and they used to be in the field and will work for free? Will you still be allowed to preform and be compensated at the going rate?

While the lottery situation would not happen, I DO worry pretty much every day that I may be replaced with someone who is willing to do my job cheaper. It's part of my motivation to work my A$$ off to try and keep that from happening. Obviously I would not like it, but in today’s job market it happens more and more.

[CoolToolGuy]

I said it before, and I will reiterate here - having Mr. Bargain on the scene when you had arranged to do the shoot is a low-class move that I disagree with.

We all love quality, but I seriously doubt that whatever condition the photo is in when Johnny shows the pictures at his wedding will have any meaning to your photographic livelihood, unless you get to do his wedding because of it. If he loved yours, fine, but I don't think he will look you up because his faded Pop Warner shot was done by Mr Bargain.

Home Depot has lots of hammers, and anyone can buy one. Many folks attempt their own remodeling jobs, and are not professionals. That's life, and if they don't want to pay for the pro, they won't. If the doorway warps and the door won't close, they will probably still think about how much money they saved doing it themselves. Not everyone wants to pay the sitting fee to have their kid's football portrait photographed by Ansel Adams (even if it were still possible).

[sdommin]

I certainly don't want to take anybody's bread & butter away from them, but let's consider some other sides to the story:

You walk up to your son's little league game, and the first thing you see is a sign that says "No Photography".

Your daughter's dance recital is today - posted on the door is a sign that says "No Photography".

Another daughter graduates from high school - well, you get the idea.

I just wanted to present an idea for discussion. Does anyone think that the scenarios above are too far-fetched? Stay tuned, folks. I assume that everyone on this forum is a photographer - how do you feel about not being able to take pictures?

[timmyquest]

I just wanted to present an idea for discussion. Does anyone think that the scenarios above are too far-fetched? Stay tuned, folks. I assume that everyone on this forum is a photographer - how do you feel about not being able to take pictures?

I think the 1st ammendment pretty much protects us from most of those cases.

[sdommin]

I think the 1st ammendment pretty much protects us from most of those cases.

Not at all, Timmy. The 1st Amendment only applies to the government. It does not apply to private individuals. They can restrict or prohibit photography at their events as they wish.

I just wanted to present a different side, here.

[CyberDyneSystems]

In fact. many venues have standing rules concerning photography.. as do the events themselves whether there is a photog on duty or not.

Dance recials often disallow photography because the averadge P&S shooter does not even know how to turn off the flash...

Flash photography is distracting and even dangerous to performers.

[Danny Boy]

Just brainstorming here ("Oh God, here we go... :lol: ")

This weekend is my 7 year old daughter's first soccer game. No big deal, eh... 7 year old soccer? Well I'm going to take my camera out there on it' monopod and I'm going to buy a big a$$ white lens before then (I guess not that big.. 70-200 f/4). I'm going to shoot pictures till the cows come home.. not only of my daughter but of anything else I think I want to take pictures of. I have no intention of selling any and I don't know who else will be there taking pics. Let's say a friend of a friend of my wife wants to buy some of my pics and won't take no for an answer. No big deal... $10 or so?

Then it ripples... mom after mom want my pics (mothers do love pics of their kids). I'm not saying it will happen nor am I saying I am a good photographer, just talking for discussion. What then? And what if other photographers get mad? I'm not talking about breaking any laws but keep in mind that cash dictates a lot of human reaction. Should I just say no to money, even if in need?

One posting earlier talked about their jobs being at risk. I'm in IT where I architect, design, and write requirements for web based business software applications. There is talk about sending all of our jobs to India. You don't think I'm looking for options now, other ways to supplement my income?

It's a cut-throat environment out there. Not just in the photography industry but everywhere. Whoever is the most creative wins.

It does boil down to what CDS says, it is quality vs. cost. Some call it capitalism.

By the way, I'm not really out to take anyone else's job away. Just brainstorming for discussion.

Okay, you can all yell at me now. :lol:

Dan

[stopbath]

:oops: Oops and here I thought a free market place was a good idea, and a monopoly was to be frowned apon.

[IndyJeff]

Damn, where to start,.....ok here goes.

If anyone can show me where I said I was ticked off when I saw another shooter out there, show me. It will be news to me. When I saw him and knew what he was up to, it was competition to me and I have no problem with that. When I got pissed was when I saw his pricing. Now if he were at $4 I wouldn't have been as mad that his pricing was cheaper, I could still compete.


From mson
As for those of us who only want to make a little extra cash to pay for our hobby. How is that wrong? I am no where near a pro so why would I charge pro prices? Is it fair to a potential "client" that I charge pro prices and give them novice photos? If I could charge $1000 a photo, I would. I can see the pros side of this conversation, but if you are going to blame someone blame the customer. There is a big difference between a pro's work and a novice’s work. Some people are willing to pay, others are not or are not able to.

mson, you should charge what your work is worth. Why would you ask for $1 when you can get $5 for the same print? You want to earn extra cash for your hobby, fine. Get paid for it and make some money.Yes it is a market driven world and when someone lowballs prices rediculosly low, the lower the bar for all pricing in that field. WAL-MART....need I say more?

We all love quality, but I seriously doubt that whatever condition the photo is in when Johnny shows the pictures at his wedding will have any meaning to your photographic livelihood, unless you get to do his wedding because of it. If he loved yours, fine, but I don't think he will look you up because his faded Pop Warner shot was done by Mr Bargain.

CTG You missed my point. In years down the road when they find that they print has faded and the colors are bleached out, then they will see the quality they get. Will Mr. Bargin care? Probably not. That is why I went with a service which prints photo quality on photo paper.
When I was shooting film, if someone bought a print off me I didn't go to Wal-Mart or Meijers to get the print done, I went to a professional photo lab so they would get what they paid for...professional quality.

From sdommin
You walk up to your son's little league game, and the first thing you see is a sign that says "No Photography".

Your daughter's dance recital is today - posted on the door is a sign that says "No Photography".

Yes they have the right to restrict photography. Don't you think so? Back in 2000 I was a photographer for the Richmond IN Grand Prix. It was 3 days of motorcycles, legends cars, and go-karts. On Friday night they had a concert, The Marshall Tucker Band. They were cool and I got to hang out with a group that I grew up with, so to speak. A local restaraunt provided dinner for the group and wanted pub shots. I went as the rep for the RGP and did the shots for both and had dinner with them. At the concert they had an area boarded off in front of the stage, That is where I was, along with 1 other shooter. Got some great shots of the whole concert. Then on Sat night a country act came in, Mark Chestnut. His mgr said 3 songs and all photographers were to clear out. No photos were to be sold and could only be used by the event organizer for pub purposes.
Ever walk in to a concert with your camera and have someone tell you "No photography"?
The event promoter/organizer has a right to keep people from making money off his venture. Don't you think this is only proper?

From Danny Boy
Let's say a friend of a friend of my wife wants to buy some of my pics and won't take no for an answer. No big deal... $10 or so?

Then it ripples... mom after mom want my pics (mothers do love pics of their kids). I'm not saying it will happen nor am I saying I am a good photographer, just talking for discussion. What then? And what if other photographers get mad? I'm not talking about breaking any laws but keep in mind that cash dictates a lot of human reaction. Should I just say no to money, even if in need?

You should be able to take pictures of your kid but, when you begin to sell those images it has now become a commercial venture. The sanctioning body has a right to restrict people from making money off their investment.



Yes it is a capitalistic market and yes, you can charge whatever you damn well please as long as someone is willing to pay for it.

Up there somewhere someone mentioned jobs going to India because people will work for $1 an hour. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but, wages are not what are driving jobs overseas. It is taxes and benefit costs that are closing factories. A factory budget will run 15-20% labor cost. However, 40-45% of that budget will be for benefit costs, i.e. health care, vacation time, personal days, sick days, workers comp, and all the other stuff that falls under that catagory. I too used to think it was wages until an uncle of mine who was a president of General Electric Puerto Rican Operations explained to me why companies move overseas. Taxes, now that is a whole different topic and can be a long and involved discussion which I won't get into here.

Damn, my fingers hurt!

[IndyJeff]

mson I never had bought anything from B&H. I buy most of my gear from Roberts. They are local and if I have a problem I can drive downtown and get it taken care of in person.

[mson]

mson I never had bought anything from B&H. I buy most of my gear from Roberts. They are local and if I have a problem I can drive downtown and get it taken care of in person.

Then I retract my previous statement.

From your later post it sounds like we are closer in opinion than I originally thought. In fairness, when newbie’s start out doing this sort of thing it's hard to figure out a "fair" price. I tend not to think highly of my work, so I would have a hard time charging anywhere near what someone like you charges. I obviously want to charge as much as possible! :D

Photography is a funny business. I talk to a lot of people who think this photo or that photo is amazing, but when I look at it with a critical eye I can find faults.

[IndyJeff]

In fairness, when newbie’s start out doing this sort of thing it's hard to figure out a "fair" price. I tend not to think highly of my work, so I would have a hard time charging anywhere near what someone like you charges. I obviously want to charge as much as possible!

Man that is about the easiest answer I have ever given on here......


You charge what, or close to what everybody else is charging. When I started doing my event stuff this summer, I did some research and found out what people are charging around here and based my pricing on that. I am not the highest but, I am not the lowest either, I am right about in the middle, with the majority. Right where I should be starting out in this business. Next year my pricing will go up and I will be one of the higher ones.
If you don't think highly of your work then how can you expect your customers to? How are you gonna sell someone on buying a 20x30 poster of a shot you took without saying, "Man that is a great shot. Look at her expression, the ball on the bat, and you can just almost hear the bang of that ball as it is whacked off the bat can't you? Now I will be honest with you, if we tried to stage this shot we may get the ball on the bat, we may get the expression but, getting them all in one shot is gonna take all day long. And I already have it, I guess I got lucky huh?"
That is what I actually said to a dad looking at one of his daughters shots on my sample board. He agreed it was a great shot and maybe the best one he has seen of her batting. He said he might get an 8x10 of that. I said, "An 8x10? Man that is a poster shot, at least a 16x20 but a 20x30 would look great framed up and hanging on the wall as a center piece pf her sports display at home." He kind of smiled and said I was a hell of a salesman. I told him it is not even a question of being a salesman, honestly it was one of the best catches I ever had, bar none, and that was why I had it as an 8x10 on my display board. He looked and then asked how much a poster was. I told him and he kind of nodded. The mom at that point said how cool that would look in their game room. I knew then they would buy one. The next day I got an email, "You have an order which is missing the fullsize file". I knew right away who had ordered. Sure enough it was that shot.....20x30 poster and 3 5x7's

If you work is good enough to charge for then it is good enough to get a fair price for it, whatever the price is for that size print in your area.

If someone buys my shot because it is $1, are they buying it because it is a good shot or because it is so cheap? People buy my shots because they are think they are good images, not because they are cheap pictures.

[IndyJeff]

One other thing, if you do like Mr. Bargin is doing your not making any friends in this business. Based upon my experiences with him this weekend, I would never, ever hire him as a shooter if I needed an extra.

I know another guy who does this same thing, kids sports. Got an email from him asking if I would be interested in doing a swim meet with him. I replied I have never done swimming but will give it a shot. He came back, "by the second or third group you will know what your doing."

[CoolToolGuy]

We all love quality, but I seriously doubt that whatever condition the photo is in when Johnny shows the pictures at his wedding will have any meaning to your photographic livelihood, unless you get to do his wedding because of it. If he loved yours, fine, but I don't think he will look you up because his faded Pop Warner shot was done by Mr Bargain.

CTG You missed my point. In years down the road when they find that they print has faded and the colors are bleached out, then they will see the quality they get. Will Mr. Bargin care? Probably not. That is why I went with a service which prints photo quality on photo paper.
When I was shooting film, if someone bought a print off me I didn't go to Wal-Mart or Meijers to get the print done, I went to a professional photo lab so they would get what they paid for...professional quality.


Maybe we're missing each other. Let me try it this way - there may be some parents that want to save every print ever taken of their kid so that they can be displayed at the kid's funeral (hopefully after a long life), but there are also a goodly number that just want to tack them onto the refrigerator door or put them on their desk at work so everyone can see what the kid looks like now.

As long as there are dads with cameras you will have to deal with someone who says 'All ya gotta do is...' and tries to undercut you in a youth sports environment. Add to that most folks see the 'official' photographer in any situation as overpriced. Perhaps you should consider going into a venture where you can cultivate a desire for the quality you want to provide or ensure the exclusivity that will guarantee you get your price. Getting upset because someone wants to charge less than what YOU think is the going rate will just set you on the path to high blood pressure (or worse).

If dad takes pictures and sells some to his friends and neighbors with kids in the league, that's life. If he hangs his name and address over yours after you were hired to do the shoot, you should talk to the league officials.

[IndyJeff]

Perhaps you should consider going into a venture where you can cultivate a desire for the quality you want to provide or ensure the exclusivity that will guarantee you get your price.

When did I say I wanted exclusivity? Did I march off the field when I relaized this guy was doing the same thing I was? No, I tried to strike up conversations. Was he responsive? Nope, kind of stand offish really. So if anyone was looking to be exclusive it was him. Guess what? He got it too. I have notified the league director that I will pull the gallery next Sunday so he needs to inform anyone who wishes to use thier coupon to do so before then.
Maybe it pissed him off because they were annoucing me over their PA system and didn't say squat about him. Now who really lost out? The league because they will not be getting their 10% which could have been $100 or more. That is just free money for them, nothing invested, no time spent, no labor involved just pure 100% profit for them.

Getting upset because someone wants to charge less than what YOU think is the going rate will just set you on the path to high blood pressure (or worse).



No, it is not based on what I think the prices should be, my prices are based upon what I found to be the going rate by a majority of legitimate businesses around here doing this kind of work. What kind of moron do you take me for? You think I just pulled my rates outta my ass? I did research on other EP's in the area, printers, site hosts' etc. You see I really started building this back in March or April and my first contact with anyone about shooting them was in late June. I did my first event right after the 4th of July, a lot quicker than I expected too. This is not some fly by night weekend hobby for me. I count on this income for my family.

As far as dads go, there was one of those too. I asked him between quarters who his kid was, he pointed him out. When it was his kids turn to be the QB, I motioned him over to where I was, looking from where the umpire would normally stand and gave the dad the prime shooting spot, looking from a linebackers view of his kid at the QB spot. I also made sure when I was shooting to be clear of anyone else who might be trying to get some shots, including Mr. Bargin Bob, so I didn't mess up their shot.

[Cadwell]

Jeff,

I understand your frustration. I think it is inevitable that this sort of scenario will become more and more common. The emergence of "cheap" digital SLRs makes it easy for anyone who thinks they have the talent to set themselves up as "pro" photographers.

As an example, I was at a race meeting at Donington Park this weekend. There was a couple wandering around, on the public side of the fence so they weren't official photographers, wearing reflective vests advertising their web site. Out of interest I looked at their site today. The shots are quite frankly appalling and of a quality that I would be embarrased to show anyone, let alone sell but regardless of that they are up for sale. At the astounding sum of £0.70 for a 7x5 up to £40 for a 30x20.

I don't sell my photos; I don't want to, so their actions don't worry me but the shots I took under the same conditions are way better and I am sure yours would be too. I think the only way pros such as yourself can compete is on quality.

I expect the number of people trying to do this will drop off over time as they come to the realisation that they can't make money out of it but unfortunately pros like yourself may be in for a tough time in the short term.

[Belmondo]

I understand your frustration. I think it is inevitable that this sort of scenario will become more and more common. The emergence of "cheap" digital SLRs makes it easy for anyone who thinks they have the talent to set themselves up as "pro" photographers. .

Again, I hold the camera industry partially responsible for selling unrealistic expectations along with their hardware. Anyone who is not familiar with the nuances of photography is going to believe the hype---all they have to do is buy a fancy camera, learn to turn it on and point it in the right direction, and it will do the rest. Eventually most of these people figure out that there's a lot more to it than just the equipment, but by the time they get to that point, they've screwed things up for everyone else.

[IndyJeff]

Well I have an update......I got an email yesterday, it seems that one of the moms who has a son playing in that football league called a friend of hers. Her friend and her husband run a youth soccer league here in central Indiana. This lady sent me an email and later called me. She said after a recommendation from her friend in Lebanon, she went to my website and they want me to cover their soccer league this fall. My first shoot is next Monday the 20th.

Let this be a lesson to you, as it was to me. Act professionally at all times when dealing with the public. If I were to have gotten mad because this other guy was out there and demanded that he be told to stop, word would have traveled thru the stands and I doubt very much that this mom would have called her friend and recommended me.


Oh BTW, the football mom bought prints.

[Belmondo]

Good, Jeff. Are you going to do anything different this time?

[IndyJeff]

Good, Jeff. Are you going to do anything different this time?

Oh yes, I have an understanding with them that I will be the only photographer offering prints for sale. That agreement is now verbal but will be in writing before I start. Uploaded a contract to them last night which they will sign and bring to the first event. In the contract it states that any parents with cameras are free to shoot all they want of their child.

They didn't want any rebate so, instead of money back to the league I will give them a 20x30 print and a collection of 5x7's that will be displayed for their sign-ups next year.

[Danny Boy]

Jeff,

That sounds like a sweet deal. Congrats on getting this and I hope it works out for you.

Dan

[MazerRakhm]

Let this be a lesson to you, as it was to me. Act professionally at all times when dealing with the public. If I were to have gotten mad because this other guy was out there and demanded that he be told to stop, word would have traveled thru the stands and I doubt very much that this mom would have called her friend and recommended me.

I've been looking at posts in this forum for quite some time now, and I think this is probably one of the most interesting (Non shot related) post that I've seen, and I basically wanted to say thanks for it. There have been many sides, points of view, and lots of great information especially relating to the dynamics of the profession of photography itself.

Besides this I think your absolutely right, always keep your cool in front of others. You never know who a customer might be, or what you could potentially damage.

[evilenglishman]

Jeff,
Whenever I've been in this situation a good tactic is to go the opposite way - charge more for your own work. If you are charging $15 for a print and your competitor is charging $1 people are going to stop and wonder why :wink:

[mson]

I think it is inevitable that this sort of scenario will become more and more common. The emergence of "cheap" digital SLRs makes it easy for anyone who thinks they have the talent to set themselves up as "pro" photographers.

Was this not a problem before digital? I have a 300D and "only" spent $900 on it, but that is more than I EVER thought I would spend on a camera, now I'm eyeing the 20D. These "cheap" digital SLRs are more expensive than pro film cameras used to be. Has the cost of developing, etc made that big of a difference? I'm not arguing your point, just trying to understand why a lot of people say this.

[mson]

FWIW I think this has been a great thread! I have learned a lot and it has made me re-think some things.

[Cadwell]

Was this not a problem before digital? I have a 300D and "only" spent $900 on it, but that is more than I EVER thought I would spend on a camera, now I'm eyeing the 20D. These "cheap" digital SLRs are more expensive than pro film cameras used to be. Has the cost of developing, etc made that big of a difference? I'm not arguing your point, just trying to understand why a lot of people say this.

"Cheap", of course, is a relative term. ;) Digital SLRs are much cheaper than they used to be.

Digital has made things so much simpler. It has removed all the expense (and inconvenience) of film processing. It makes it easy (and economic) to fire off five hundred shots in order to get one good one if that's your style (I'll hasten to add here that it's not mine).

So it is with these people who think they are capable of making the "pro" grade and selling pictures. It's very easy to take a shot of every single competitor in a race and then offer them for sale on the internet - regardless of how bad they are. Each shot is "free" after all (if you ignore capital outlay on kit). I hesitate to post a link to the site of these so called "pro photographers" who I saw at the weekend and who illustrate the point perfectly (I don't want to give them publicity).

Oh, and before anyone thinks it, I am not taking a pop at anyone's equipment. These people were using good digital SLRs with decent lenses. It was talent they lacked, not gear. At the same time and from the same location my friend took much better shots with his advanced point and shoot.

[IndyJeff]

Cadwell, good choice on publicly posting their website. I was asked to do so in an email from a member of another very popular pro forum. Needless to say I didn't and responded I didn't want to do that because I know people would have left messages telling the guy his stuff sucked. Might have looked like I sicced the dogs on him.

posted by mson
FWIW I think this has been a great thread! I have learned a lot and it has made me re-think some things.

Good. I hope it made you realize that even if your not a pro and try to act like one, at least charge for your work like a pro would. A friend of mine who examined this other guys site basically said, "If I were that guy I would wonder how many people bought my pictures because they were cheap, not because they were good?"