D60 Underexpose Problem !!!!

[mwpmo]

I just got my new D60.
But I got some problem.

Problem 1
When I use 550EX with D60, the pictures are always darker than the built-in flash of D60 and are underexpose by at least 1 stop!!!

Problem 2
Nearly all image is underexpose by about 1 stop!!!

I already got the latest firmware 1.0.2.

Why?

Samples (resize only, no other adjustment)

1) Canon PowerShot G1 - a little bit over

http://www.tower3a.com/test/IMG_0024.JPG


2) D60 - no flash

http://www.tower3a.com/test/IMG_9852.JPG


3) D60 - w/ built-in flash - under by 0.5 to 1 stop

http://www.tower3a.com/test/IMG_9853.JPG


4) D60 - w/ 550EX - under by 1 to 1.5 stop

http://www.tower3a.com/test/IMG_9854.JPG


5) D60 - w/ 550EX & +1 Flash EV

http://www.tower3a.com/test/IMG_9855.JPG


I am contract Canon Hong Kong, hope they can help me.
(But they said I am the first one in HK to complain this problem)
(I have tried the demo unit in Canon Hong Kong Office, same problem!)


MWPMO

[mwpmo]

All Samples in one link!

http://www.dcview.com/forums/msg.asp?id=A14&msgid=6039&posit=0&curmsg=6029&remsg=5979

[PSChia]

I have noticed the same under-exposure problem with my D60 and 420EX flash except that the exposure from the built-in flash seems to be OK with my camera.

[Hunter27]

Hi

I have had the same problem with the 550ex. At first I thought it was my camera but now reading your post I think I will do some testing further. I have update dthe firmware to 1.0.2 but the results have stayed the same.

Maybe a new firmware update from Canon for this?

Nick

http://www.osborneimages.com

[PSChia]

mwpmo wrote:
I am contract Canon Hong Kong, hope they can help me.
(But they said I am the first one in HK to complain this problem)
(I have tried the demo unit in Canon Hong Kong Office, same problem!)


MWPMO

I brought my D60 and 420EX down to the Canon Service Centre here in Singapore for a checkup. They too told me that I am the first user to complain to them about this problem. When their service rep tried out my 420EX and their own 550EX on their own D60, they too found that while the exposure by the built-in flash was OK, the external flash consistently would under-exposed by 1 stop or more. They promised to carry out some more tests on their camera and get back to me by next week on their findings.

Until then, the only solution that she could recommend was to either use the flash exposure compensation function of the camera, or to leave the flash with them and they would reprogram the flash to increase its output using their service software.

By the way, the service rep said that the recent firmware upgrade to ver. 1.0.2 was not meant to address this problem at all and so whether the firmware was upgraded or not would not make any difference to the operation of the camera in flash mode.

[emayd]

The problem is in autofocus light. In bed light condition camera turn on light for AF and exactly in the same time calculate the exposure. If you turn of this function in the custom settings all work OK. Another solution, after signal that camera cached focus press "*" button for recalculate exposure.

You can easy test this using a histogram.

Best regards,
Edward

[Hawkeye12]

here is a link that may help some of you;


http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/

i have had and sold the 550 EX, and now have the Metz 54MZ-3 that has worked flawlessly with the D60.
you can put the Metz in Auto and the D60 in manual and just snap away.
here is a link to a discussion about the Metz;



http://www.robgalbraith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=002441

and this one;


http://www.robgalbraith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000636

[Timo Autiokari]

Problem 1 When I use 550EX with D60, the pictures are always darker than the built-in flash of D60 and are underexpose by at least 1 stop!!!

I've not been using the built-in flash as it is so inefficient, but D60 with 550ex needs +1 EV (on the flash).

Problem 2 Nearly all image is underexpose by about 1 stop!!!

Yes, even without the flash. I keep the camera contantly at EV +1.

I already got the latest firmware 1.0.2.

Me to.

Why?

Either:

1. One could say that the D60 has plenty of "exposure lattitude" (this is a nice way to put it).
2. Or there is a systematic bug in the exposure control of the D60.
3. Or to be better inline with the truth Canon is tweaking the exposure control in such way that they can claim 100ASA base sensitivity for the D60 where it in reality is only 50ASA.

Looking at this from the manufacturers point of view, the issue is somewhat difficult. In some cases the extra headroom is very useful to have, overexposure is always a difficult problem and many times damages the whole shot. I've noted that shooting at +1EV is sometimes edge play.

However in many cases the 1 EV underexposure degrades the image quality, obviously 1 stop from the dark end is lost and when the 1EV is prost-processed up the overall noise will double.

What we would need in digital SLR cameras a sensor (256 ... 1024 pixels, behind semitransparent mirror) in the viewfinder path and would constantly measure the scene say at videofrequency then instead of adjusting the EV compensation we would specify the percentage of pixels that we allow to overexpose. This way we would always get full histogram (proper exposure).

[Hawkeye12]

this following link may be over your heads, but here goes..........once you determine the results, you may or may not need to send your D60 in for an adjustment. many have, but like i said, thie test may be too hard for some of you. good luck;

http://www.robgalbraith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=002570


oh and BTW, Chuck Westfall is with Canon.

[dadsgm]

I have read all the comments concerning the underexposure problem and cannot understand why the problem exists. Seems Canon may be asleep at the wheel.

In any case I would suggest to you and anyone experiencing the problem to get that camera back to Canon for adjustment or refund (presuming of course that it is still under warranty).

I had been planning on purchasing the D60 but after all the problems I have read about I believe I will wait until after the next Photo show in Februaty.

Get that camera back to Canon - you paid good money for it and you shouldn't have to compromise on the stated performance.

[billfranklin]

I too had this underexposure problem when I got my D60. I then did Chuck's test and it proved my camera and 550 flash were in Canon's specs. So why the underexposure.

I had to go back to things I learned when first started using exposure meters. Some of you are aware that if you are in a studio and take an incendent reading and then a reflective reading, they will be different, anywhere between 1 and 2 stops.

I don't know all the theory, but here is what I understand. When you take and incident meter reading with the light falling on the meter, the meter tells you what exposure you need to correctly expose a Kodak 18% gray card. With this exposure, you should get good whites, good blacks and everything in between.

When you take a reflective meter reading (what the camera is doing), the meter tells you what exposure you need to turn whatever you are metering into a 18% gray card; ie. if you meter a white dress, the camera is giving you a setting to make that white dress 18% gray. Remember the rule of thum when photographing snow with chrome film, increase your exposure by at least one stop to avoid underexposure.

I think this is what is happeing with the D60. The meter is very sensitive to whatever you are metering, and if it is a light color (white face), then you are going to be underexposed. No problem with film, because the labs can handle up to 3 stops of latitude. We don't have that luxury with the D60.

For me, I now set my camra manually, in most cases, at 1/60 and f8 and bump the flash up 1 stop. As long as I am not photographing dark subjects, I get correct exposures.

Hope this gives some of you someting to think about.

Bill

[Jerry White]

>>When I use 550EX with D60, the pictures are always >>darker than the built-in flash of D60 and are >>underexpose by at least 1 stop!!!

I just ran a quicky similar exposure test. I shot a photo of my living room couch no flash, built in flash, 550ex,and then 550exbounce off ceiling.

Available light gave me what I expected:
Built in flash gave me an image that was actually .5-1 stop over,
550ex looks right on and
550bounce about .5-1 stop under.

More exacting testing to be done for sure.

Jerry

[Timo Autiokari]

Hello Jerry,

Did you assess the exposure from the camera (or acquire sw) finalized JPEGs or from the linera raw data?

The exposure can not be assessed from the finalised JPEG, there is some auto-levels function in that process.

To accurately see how the camera actually exposed (before the JPEG finalization takes place) shoot RAW and then acquire the 16-bit/c Linear images. Open that image to Photoshop (note that in case your RGB working-space in Photoshop is non-linear then the image will apper as very dark on the screen but it does not affect at all to this evaluation). Now inspect the histogram (Image/Histogram). If the histogram (less the tail that is due to noise or due to specular reflections) ends up to level:

255 then most propably it was overexposed and there is no way to tell how much.
254 then the exposure was right on the money
202 then it was 1/3 stops underexposed
161 then it was 2/3 stops underexposed
128 then it was 1 stops underexposed
101 then it was 1 and 1/3 stops underexposed
80 then it was 1 and 2/3 stops underexposed
64 then it was 2 stops underexposed

[Rayz]

I have the same problem with the smallest of Canon's E-TTL flash, the 220-EX, but I got the impression the underexposure is related to the camera being out of the flash range. I use the manual setting, mostly 1/60th at F8. When underexposure occurs, stopping up from the same distance, or getting closer to the subject usually fixes the problem.

I generally find it's safer with the D60 to aim for a 1/2 stop underexposure. The D60 has such low noise it's easy to rescue an underexposed image. I'd rather have one stop underexposure than 1/2 a stop overexposure.

Overexposure is something one has to be very careful about with the D60. Washed out highlights cannot be redeemed.

[metal_gearman]

I'm a prosumer who decided to purchase the D60 and use the "Auto" functions first - then learn advanced features later. It turns out that every picture taken is too dark in Auto mode - and I have now found many other references to this problem on the intenet. To see my photo tests got to http://troutball.com/d60.

I'm really angry about this flaw. I plan to return the cameral immediately.

[Hawkeye12]

metal_gearman wrote:
I'm a prosumer who decided to purchase the D60 and use the "Auto" functions first - then learn advanced features later. It turns out that every picture taken is too dark in Auto mode - and I have now found many other references to this problem on the intenet. To see my photo tests got to http://troutball.com/d60.

I'm really angry about this flaw. I plan to return the cameral immediately.

it looks pretty normal for the lens you were using.
it's been said here and on every other Canon talk forum that the 28-135 is notorious for underexposing the pictures taken when used on a D60.
chances are pretty good that if you send it in to Canon for this, it will come back just as you sent it in.

[jjguest]

did you try to download the new firmware. I think it should resolve your problem

[Hawkeye12]

jjguest wrote:
did you try to download the new firmware. I think it should resolve your problem

which firmware?
version 1.02 (now gone from Canon's site) fixed the underexposure problem while using superimposed display (red AF point display).

version 1.04 (current update) fixes thumbnail bug, but for some users it has increased the underexposure problem.

[metal_gearman]

The camera was only 10 days old and had the latest firmware version. Ive added more details about the experience at troutball.com/d60.

I opted to return the camera in exchange for a new one that will arrive sometime in the forseeable future.
I wasn't excited about the option offered which was sending this one to Canon for repair.

Will the next one come out of the box with the same problem? Hmmm............

[Hawkeye12]

with the 28-135 lens it is possible that you will see the same results. is it the only lens you have?
do you have a 50mm lens?
one test that is outlined below by Canon's Chuck Westfall is to use a gray card and test the camera and look at the results with Photoshop.......try it, you may find that it is the lens and not the camera. BTW, most people using the 28-135 (which is pretty sharp) dial in about +1 exposure compensation and everything is fine.

here is the link to test your D60's exposure calibration;

http://www.robgalbraith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=002570

[metal_gearman]

I purchased the 28-135 lens lens with the camera and have no others. I returned everything and planned to repurchase the accessories when the new body arrives. Do you really think the problem will go away with a different lens?

Regarding the change in exposure - I was given a similar answer by Canon tech. I responded that I prefer the Auto setting to work correctly. This was a primary reason I purchased the camera. I was planning to learn the advanced features later. I also wanted my wife to use the camera in Auto mode.

My comparison test was with a $900 camera - the Sony DSC F717 - also set to Auto. Shouldn't the Canon D60 Auto function work at least as well as that?

[Hawkeye12]

to be honest, i really wanted the 28-135 as well, but when i learned of this one quirk, i switched to the 24-85 (better color and contrast anyway) and i have been really happy. i also bought the 50mm f/1.4 and a 70-200L f/4 (best deal).

here are two links to show you what owners of two different sites have to say about the 24-85;

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D60/D60A5.HTM




http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canond30/page19.asp

[Hawkeye12]

BTW, the 24-85 is 90 dollars less than the 28-135, which if you want to, you could use that money to buy a 50mm f/1.8 lens which will give you a great low light lens, and it is sharp as a tack.

[metal_gearman]

I'm confused about what to do. I want the D60 to work for me - but I'm afraid the Auto function will arrive once again with presets that result in dark pictures. If you're saying that a different lens will solve the problem then I'll be very satisfied.

I'm coming to this camera without a photographic background. This purchase is my first high end camera with interchangeable lenses and I was hoping to learn photography with it.

The problem is - I have to decide whether to keep it or sell it immediately while it's still new in the box and in demand. So I don't have a whole lot of time to judge this. I'm afraid that my steep learning curve about photography combined with a useless Auto function is a bad bet.

I sure would appreciate knowing that different lenses will solve the problem. I'm especially interested in taking pictures inside the office at the distances same as the first page of http://troutball.com/d60. Which lens would you pick for that scene - and will it solve the exposure problem in Auto?

[Hawkeye12]

Tell ya What.........buy the 50mmf/1.8 lens which is around 60-70 bucks, first, then if you really want to find out how to use the D60 to it's (and yours) best, email me and i'll explain how to use the other functions to help get you going.
the D60 is designed to not overexpose pictures (this is a good thing) and what you might be seeing is not a problem at all.
with the 50mm lens to start out with you'll at least have a lens that will work in your advantage.
like i said, the 28-135 is a nice lens, but it has been discussed to no end on how it tends to yield underexposed pictures......

[Hawkeye12]

BTW here is a link that may help you.......


http://www.shortcourses.com/d60/contents.htm

[metal_gearman]

Thanks for the link to http://www.shortcourses.com/d60/contents.htm.

I have a very close friend who owns a d60 and has offered me help as well. He's a top archtectural photo pro and only recently added the D60 to his huge inventory. The offer is something I was planning to accept.

Meanwhile I've returned the EF-25-135mm and the D60 Body. Canon authorized a return for repair but I sent it back to the original retail outlet instead (within two weeks of receiving it.) They will send me a new D60 Body Kit some time in 2003. When it arrives I'll test it again.

I've really appreciated this forum. I'll study the link suggested. Here's a question - if you budgeted say - $2,000 USD - what would you pick as my first 3 lenses? (besides the 50mmf/1.8 lens). I'm not racing out to get them but will save your answer.

[Hawkeye12]

are you saying 2,000.00 just for lens?

if so, i'd pick;
1. 24-85mm for 300.00
2. 50mm f/1.4 for 300.00
3. 70-200 L f/4 for 600.00
4. Metz 54 flash for 350.00
5. Bogen 3221 w/3437 head for 240.00
6. a remote switch for the D60 range from 50-150.00 depending on which one you get.

[metal_gearman]

Sorry to say that I've decided not to accept replacement of the D60 I sent back. My retailer let me exchange it for other goods.

I'll shoot pics with a new Sony DSC F717 and monitor your site and others to decide when I should cross over to the next level of D60's or equivalents with interchangeable lenses.

The D60 and I got off on the wrong foot. Auto focus should have worked better out of the box with the lens and flash I selected. I'm a webmaster and owner of a successful corporate website who already spends too much time "beta" testing. So i'm gonna wait and watch.

[rbiehn]

Count me in on the underexposure problem. I do hope that a upcoming firmware release will address the problem. In the meantime I have adjusted my 550EX by 1 FS and am very satisfied with the result.
I upgraded from a Sony 707 which worked flawlessly but would not trade my D60! The learning curve is high but well worth the effort.

[kyskim]

Yup!! Low-light underexpo. for 550 and 28-135. However, I won't trade my D60 for Sony DigiCams. It might need a lot of effort to use D60, but it's worth it!!!

I use 2x550 and st-e2, no under expo. there. But most cases u want to use just one ex-flash. Therefore, CANON has to come up with new firmware. Until then, try to use M mode. This way u learn more about photo taking, optics, lights, etc. Yup, it's time taking, but what du HECK! I just love photography ;)

[psvnyc]

I have experienced the underexposure problem too, but using the flash only. Although I can see why Canon would choose to bias metering down, I find it unacceptable to set it by default instead of offering it as a Custom Function. Exposure level is a function of the scene, not the camera!

[Motorsports Photo]

I know this is an old thread, but what the heck.

I have a D30 and a 420ex.

My D30 had dreadful overexposure problems that were finally cured with 2 trips to NJ repair. Before sending it back I attended my grandmothers 90th birthday party. This was the first I had used the flash since the first repair was done, and I found out the sync was not working correctly and all my shots were ambient light. Yecch!

When I called NJ to tell them my D30 was coming back, the man at the phone was on the ball and said to send the flash too. Now BOTH items seem to be funtioning properly.

If you think your gear isn't working right send it in for a warranty check-up. Pressure the repair folks for a REAL answer for what was wrong, and not accept generic reply of "we fixed it."

my 2 cents

-PS
Strasburg, OH

[BobS]

I have the same problem with flash (550) exposure. The problem is that the flash output is based on the auto focus point. So if it focuses on a dark suit - more output, a white shirt - less output. Try it yourself. I photograph events and if I use the auto setting, I first focus on a face. This seems to give me a good exposeure

Bob

[egodoy]

Has anyone try to use the Flash setting for Withe Balance on the D60. Works for me with a 550EX

Ernesto

[egodoy]

Ok! Please disregard my previus reply to this message. I did some testing with my D60 and a 550EX with regards of this issue. Turns out I had the camera set to AI Servo, then I changed to ONE SHOT, that really did the trick. Try it!

Ernesto.

[oceantan]

'The problem is that the flash output is based on the auto focus point. So if it focuses on a dark suit - more output, a white shirt - less output. Try it yourself. I photograph events and if I use the auto setting, I first focus on a face. This seems to give me a good exposeure.'

If you need to recompose the picture, FE the focus point. Otherwise, when you recompose the picture and the focus point happens to be on a light surface, the image will be under exposed. That is why some people like to put +1 for flash.

Similarly, if your subject is light, look for a dark object to focus, FE it and then recompose on your light subject and take the pic. The pic will turn out fine. If you consistently set +1 for flash, just remember to reset it. Otherwise, it will be over exposed.