The value of your work

[IndyJeff]

Now as most of you know I have been a staunch proponent of getting a fair price for your work. I have been greeted with such statements as "who are you to say how much anyone should charge", "I don't see how me giving away a shot is ruining the industry", "why is it that pro photographers think that everyone should charge what the pro's do", and other statements. There are some on here who no, no matter what, can not see the relationship between giving away your work and the decline and fall of the photograhphy industry. Sure you have a job and this is just a hobby or your not looking to make any money off it. Well consider the following article

The Value of Your Labor (http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/1272)

So now you tell me just how many of you still would give away your work because you don't want to make any money off it?

[Cadwell]

I understand your arguments and your concerns over the way your industry is heading. I say “your industry” because for me this is a hobby.

I'll ask you a question though...

I don't sell my photos nor do I advertise them for sale. In fact, I am not legally entitled to sell them. It is part of the terms and conditions of public entry for (nearly) all the circuits I visit that photography is permitted for "private viewing purposes only" and that "diffusing, selling, renting, exchanging, lending, using for gain or otherwise dealing in whole or in part is strictly prohibited".

I display them on my web site (in breach of the above agreement) and also here sometimes - again contrary to the terms and conditions, but I am willing to push things that far and I don’t honestly think the circuit would pursue me for it.

What should I do if one of the drivers stumbles across my web site and asks me for a copy of a shot of him in his car? I don’t want to refuse him, after all most of these guys are amateurs and they provide me with great entertainment – without them I’d have nothing to do all summer. On the other hand I don’t want to sell him a picture because that would leave me open to legal action by the circuit and I am fairly sure that where money is concerned they will come knocking.

[aam1234]

Hi Jeff,

I'm an economist by training. From what I understood from you, it seems there is an increasing "supply" of photos in the market while the "demand" is static. In this situation, the price must drop, and that's natural I'm afraid.

Bad news for you I guess (sorry about that).

[timmyquest]

Hi Jeff,

I'm an economist by training. From what I understood from you, it seems there is an increasing "supply" of photos in the market while the "demand" is static. In this situation, the price must drop, and that's natural I'm afraid.

Bad news for you I guess (sorry about that).

I was just about to bring this up...this seems to be the one key factor that people on this side of the debate continue to leave out.

[IndyJeff]

Look what happened to the web designing industry. Ten years ago you could charge a fairly hefty amount for designing a website. Then it became easier and more people started offering that service. How much will you pay today for a web design? About a 10th of what it used to cost. It was pure economics but, what did it do to the quality? There are a lot of websites out there that may be flashy but are crap. When a company wants something they go to a pro to get it designed. They pay for it but not as much as they would have 10 years ago. There are also not as many pro designers as there were 5 years ago, a lot of them went under. I know of two personally that were flying high 10 years ago and within the last 3 years they both went under. They had plenty of business but, they could no longer charge enough to cover their overhead. As one guy told me, it was good while it lasted. He was offered a job by a major national comapny to design and maintain their corp websites. He took it.

Yes the supply has increased but, there are certain publications which still demand a certain grade of quality. Have you tried to submit something to Sports Illustrated? Guess what, if you haven't discussed it prior to sending it, they will never see it.

Cadwell I know exactly what your saying, I have given prints to race drivers. In fact I have autographed prints of Tony Stewart(IRL), Tony Siragusa(NFL), Marshal Faulk(NFL) All of which were exchanged for a print for them. I have even given shots to guys who I was friends with. I have also sold prints to drivers, owners and crew members. Believe it or not, any team in the IRL can go to the IRL and get prints of them on the track, in the pits or any shot taken by the speedway at no charge. This is a service that the IMS photography dept provides. It discourages the selling of prints to the teams by shooters.
I had an interesting conversation with the director of photography of the Indy Motor Speedway in his office last January. He said that they knew that every credentialed shooter out there will sell a print here and there but, there was no way to effectivly police it. However if someone would turn it into a commercial venture and offer mass quanities of prints for sale they would go after them.

There are times when you may provide a print to someone and no money change hands. You may get advertising in exchange or access may be granted. This year I am shooting a local high school football team. I provide the team with shots for their newsletter each week, in exchange I post the rest of the images on my site for the parents to buy. I make more off that than if I were to charge their newsletter. Also as a result of them giving me that access, I sell images to a online news site, and one local paper.

And the excuse, "I am not looking to make money off this, it is my hobby", well I guess you muct have a pretty good job if you can give away something that someone would be willing to pay $10,000 for.

I will say this, if your giving away your shots, or charging a mere pittance of what they are worth commercially, don't expect to welcomed with open arms by guys who are trying to make a living doing it. If I know your a hobbist and you ask me for advice, I am not giving it. Go to school or figure it out for yourself. Why would I want to teach you how to do something to improve you that may end up costing me a paycheck? Doesn't make sense does it?

[CoolToolGuy]

Well, Jeff, you should consider posting only in the 'Cornering The Pros' board. If you are not going to participate in the free exchange of information with those of us who are only here for the love of photography, then maybe we don't want to see you here.

Now that may sound harsh, but that is what you are saying.

If I have a complete woodworking shop in my house, I am not allowed to make furniture for my family and friends for the cost of materials? Please, get a grip!

Rick

[ds77]

So any photographer, hobby or not, should charge for every picture they take?


seems silly.


I have a great picture of the tree in my backyard, but I cant post it unless I charge you all. muhahahaha

[IndyJeff]

Well, Jeff, you should consider posting only in the 'Cornering The Pros' board. If you are not going to participate in the free exchange of information with those of us who are only here for the love of photography, then maybe we don't want to see you here.

Now that may sound harsh, but that is what you are saying.

If I have a complete woodworking shop in my house, I am not allowed to make furniture for my family and friends for the cost of materials? Please, get a grip!

Rick

How about I don't post at all? Cornering the pros would be the place where someone would go to get advice so what would be the thinking of posting only there unless it was only available to those working in this business? I would gladly give advice to someone who would be wanting to work in this business and maintain a professional standard but, not to help someone further erode the ability to make a living at it. That would be kind of stupid now wouldn't it?
Maybe I shouldn't have offered DocFrankenstein to help him find a local pro shooter to come and speak with his new camera club.

[timmyquest]

So any photographer, hobby or not, should charge for every picture they take?


seems silly.


I have a great picture of the tree in my backyard, but I cant post it unless I charge you all. muhahahaha

I dont think you've been reading about the subject at hand :roll:

[CoolToolGuy]

So I guess Pekka should shut down this site, because he is offering all of this technology for free?

Several months ago you thought it was pretty cool that I did a project for my daughter's school and provided images for free.
http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=29546
Yet now you don't want to associate with those who would do photography for the love of the craft.

See ya! I hope you find that pay site that will only allow you to log on if you charge for your work.

Rick

[timmyquest]

Several months ago you thought it was pretty cool that I did a project for my daughter's school and provided images for free.

The school did not make money off of your photographs.

[CoolToolGuy]

Several months ago you thought it was pretty cool that I did a project for my daughter's school and provided images for free.

The school did not make money off of your photographs.

But our buddy Jeff does not want to exchange ideas with folks who are giving away their work. Sorry, I think he is mooching if all he wants to do is get information and never give it back if I might possibly cost him a sale some day. I do not believe that's what this site is about.

Rick

[IndyJeff]

CTG several months ago you responded to a thread I started, let me remind you of the first line of that thread

How many of you give back to your community in some way involving photography?


Yes that was a good thing you did. I have done similar things in giving back to my community but, how many professional photographers would have lost out on a job of shooting your daughters school play? I am willing to bet none, nobody was interested in shooting that either but you were. Why didn't you just print off every shot in a 5x7 and give it to them instead of making a cd and having the dup it? Whats the matter, you a cheapskate? LOL

If you want to give away every shot you shoot to someone fine, have at it. That is your perogative

[HJMinard]

When a company wants something they go to a pro to get it designed. They pay for it but not as much as they would have 10 years ago.

Yes the supply has increased but, there are certain publications which still demand a certain grade of quality. Have you tried to submit something to Sports Illustrated? Guess what, if you haven't discussed it prior to sending it, they will never see it.

In conclusion?

If you're truly good (provide a certain grade of quality), then you have nothing to worry about, because the hobbyists (who don't provide a certain grade of quality) are not competitive ... ability wise.

[CoolToolGuy]

Jeff, this latest round started as a result of something that happened within a youth football league, correct? So if Mr. Bargain Dad was 'giving back' to return a favor from one of his friends, how is that different?

Cheapskate? I took over 500 images, culled out the bad ones, created two different resolutions, and cut the master. Over 80 kids got copies of the CD, and they are free to use them as they see fit. Gee, think of all the revenue that could have been made!

You see your camera as a money machine, and I see it as a creative vehicle. Both are valid. I suggest you read the welcome message on the home page of these forums and decide if this is the right place for you to be.

I have been into photography for 30 years. I have derived income from the photo industry, and I have used it as a hobby. Never once have I hesitated to provide the benefit of my experiences to anyone, pro or otherwise. Turning your statement around, why should I provide information to you for free so you can make a living from it? You should pay me for the training and/or techniques that I provide to you that enable you to improve your business acumen.

[IndyJeff]

When a company wants something they go to a pro to get it designed. They pay for it but not as much as they would have 10 years ago.

Yes the supply has increased but, there are certain publications which still demand a certain grade of quality. Have you tried to submit something to Sports Illustrated? Guess what, if you haven't discussed it prior to sending it, they will never see it.

In conclusion?

If you're truly good (provide a certain grade of quality), then you have nothing to worry about, because the hobbyists (who don't provide a certain grade of quality) are not competitive ... ability wise.



HJ yeah that is pretty much right but, when it comes to newspapers quality is not much of an issue as there is a lot lost in the printing process. A local paper that wanted a shot I had of a game winning interception this year contacted me about getting it. When we discussed rates, they responded by saying that people usually donate photos. I said I would donate it if I can run a 1/4 page ad at no charge. That was not an option. So I said thanks but no thanks, I have plenty photo credits that went along with a paycheck. I guess they checked with a couple of other photographers who were there and nobody had the shot. They called back and we struck a deal, they ran a 2 column shot in their sports section. I get paid for it.
About 28 years ago the same paper, now a different name, paid me for a shot of a building fire I had taken when the blaze was really raging. I just happened acrossed it and took a shot and called them the next day. They wanted to see it and so I took it in. There was no discussion of being paid, they said we pay $35 for a double column shot. I took it. Now they say "photos are usually donated". Get my point now?

[stopbath]

So it seems we need the status quo to remain intact, even through changing times. So when the automobile was putting the horse and buggy off the streets and into the museum, we should have told the automakers "You can't make autos, the poor buggy makers can't compete." There are good and bad sides to changes.

The market will self adjust. If the influx of hobby shooters takes some wind from your sales. Adjust too.

[IndyJeff]

Jeff, this latest round started as a result of something that happened within a youth football league, correct? So if Mr. Bargain Dad was 'giving back' to return a favor from one of his friends, how is that different?

Mr. Bargin Dad was not giving back, he was making money just as I was. He wasn't donating anything back to the league, I was. So who was giving back?

Cheapskate? I took over 500 images, culled out the bad ones, created two different resolutions, and cut the master. Over 80 kids got copies of the CD, and they are free to use them as they see fit. Gee, think of all the revenue that could have been made!

LOL Yeah your a cheapskate for not printing them out. CTG, you know I am just yanking your chain about that don't you? Actually like I said in the other thread, I think what you did was pretty cool and I have no problem with it. In fact I would encourage things like that because there is no revenue there that the school could have paid someone to come in and do what you did. You get a pat on the back. Did you get any work off of doing that? If not I would be surprised.

You see your camera as a money machine, and I see it as a creative vehicle. Both are valid. I suggest you read the welcome message on the home page of these forums and decide if this is the right place for you to be.

I have read it and I have done plenty of exchnging of ideas.

I have been into photography for 30 years. I have derived income from the photo industry, and I have used it as a hobby. Never once have I hesitated to provide the benefit of my experiences to anyone, pro or otherwise. Turning your statement around, why should I provide information to you for free so you can make a living from it? You should pay me for the training and/or techniques that I provide to you that enable you to improve your business acumen.

I wish I could remember all the stuff that I have taken from this site compared to what I have given. I am willing to bet that what I have given is a lot more than what I have taken.
I don't think you have ever provided me with any information that I found useful, I am sure that you have helped others tho. Good for you.
I wish I had a dollar for every PM I have had from someone asking me for advice on how to do something or how much to charge or, look at my gallery and give me feedback. I wonder how the girl in Miami (sorry I can't remember her name) would have done if I wouldn't have offered to help her get the kid in a swing shot. She sold it, I remember that.
I wonder how DocFrankenstein would have contacted a pro to come speak at his camera club if I had not offered to help.
I will gladly give info to anyone looking to improve themselves and better understand how this business works. I have at almost every event I shot this summer been approached by a mom or dad asking for advice on how to get a good shot of their kid playing sports. Each and every time I have given that advice and guess what, each time I did that parent also bought some of my photos.

You know CTG I get the feeling your getting a little hot under the collar about defending your choice to give away your work instead of making money off it. I guess I don't understand someone getting mad about defending their right to do something detremental to their finances. So far I have not responded to anything on this thread with a rise in my blood pressure. Can you say that? LOL

[IndyJeff]

CTG, let me ask you this,

Over 80 kids got copies of the CD, and they are free to use them as they see fit.

what if one of those kids parents submitted one of your shots to a publisher and they used it in a book. The parent also was paid , say $1200 for that shot. Would you be happy about it?

[CoolToolGuy]

Jeff, baby, I'm cool as a cucumber.

I'm not going to go through your entire post, but I will paste in one sentence:

I will gladly give info to anyone looking to improve themselves and better understand how this business works

The key word is 'business'. Photography is not a 'business'. It is a craft that some folks use to derive income. My quibble with you is that you seem to want to establish a union shop for anyone who wants to share their craft. And you think that beneficial information is a one-way flow from the one who makes his living from it to those who don't. Afraid not.

Good luck in your endeavors, Jeff.

Geez, and I thought politics and religion were the only things that generate heated discussions. What's next - I have to show my income tax return in order to buy an 'L' lens?

Have Fun,

[HJMinard]

About 28 years ago the same paper, now a different name, paid me for a shot of a building fire I had taken when the blaze was really raging. I just happened acrossed it and took a shot and called them the next day. They wanted to see it and so I took it in. There was no discussion of being paid, they said we pay $35 for a double column shot. I took it. Now they say "photos are usually donated". Get my point now?

Oh yeah, I get your point. I see some validity to both sides of this argument. I don't get the "donate" thing, even for a hobbyist. It's not as if newspapers are a charity or non-profit organization (unless it's a school paper or something similar). Just to get your name listed as a credit? If they're making money off of it, so should I.

So far I have not responded to anything on this thread with a rise in my blood pressure.

Mostly true, and I commend you for that. You've maintained your composure quite well. However, your statements regarding your intention to no longer share your knowledge can easily be interpreted as a little hostile. Why not just silently stop sharing - rather than making a provocative announcement?

[CoolToolGuy]

CTG, let me ask you this,

Over 80 kids got copies of the CD, and they are free to use them as they see fit.

what if one of those kids parents submitted one of your shots to a publisher and they used it in a book. The parent also was paid , say $1200 for that shot. Would you be happy about it?

No, but I took my chances. Instead, I heard from several parents who told me that they were so happy because they now had a way to email pictures of their child in the play to the family members that were all over the country. Priceless, in my estimation.

Have Fun,

[IndyJeff]

Jeff, baby, I'm cool as a cucumber.

I'm not going to go through your entire post, but I will paste in one sentence:

I will gladly give info to anyone looking to improve themselves and better understand how this business works

The key word is 'business'. Photography is not a 'business'. It is a craft that some folks use to derive income. My quibble with you is that you seem to want to establish a union shop for anyone who wants to share their craft. And you think that beneficial information is a one-way flow from the one who makes his living from it to those who don't. Afraid not.



Have Fun,

That is what this entire thread was about was the business end of photography.

However, your statements regarding your intention to no longer share your knowledge can easily be interpreted as a little hostile. Why not just silently stop sharing - rather than making a provocative announcement?


Your right HJ, however I was only responding to the suggestion that I post in the "Cornering the Pros" forum. My point was that if I post there and give advice wouldn't anyone be able to use that advice as easily as if it were in the General Chat forum too?
If you could go back and look at all the advice I have given on this board since I joined, it pretty much is of the "how this business works" nature. Copyrights, getting credentials, how much to charge etc is mainly what I have dealt with and, I am always willing to help someone to break into this business. Now if I were an elitist who was afriad of competition would I be offering advice on these subject matters? There are many more roadblocks of the business end of this than the technical, in getting established and being able to do it.

Maybe CTG is right, this may not be the place for me. The truth of the matter is I am not all that great on technical matters. There are many here who are very superior to me in that field and my hat is off to them. I can figure out what I need to do but can't explain it in an easily understandable way. Sometimes I just know by looking what my settings need to be to get the shot I want.

Anyone needing info on how to get started, copyrights or anything business can always ask me, just send me a PM if you wish and I will gladly help you. If I help you and someday you beat me out of an assignment, good for you. I need to improve now don't I? LOL

[IndyJeff]

After taking CTG's advice and reading the idea of this place, which I had done many moons ago, he is right. This is not a place to discuss the business of photography, it is for enthusitst [sic] (I knew I would misspell that LOL).

For all my attempts to educate on the business end of photography, whether it be copyrights, prcing, getting credentials how to market etc, I apologize to anyone who was offended. I actually thought I was helping and being a contributer to this forum, sorry.

[CyberDyneSystems]

I have one thing to say on this subject and thread that I hope many of you will consider.. and I say this as a member..NOT as a moderator.


This forum is made better by the few pros who frequent it.



I say again.
This forum is made better by the few pros that frequent it.


I think we should ALL consider that. I for one would hate to loose Jeff's contribution. I think it would be a sad loss.

I want IndyJeff to be there when I have a question.

CDS

[Cadwell]

I'd like to second what CDS said.

[CoolToolGuy]

I will say this, if your giving away your shots, or charging a mere pittance of what they are worth commercially, don't expect to welcomed with open arms by guys who are trying to make a living doing it. If I know your a hobbist and you ask me for advice, I am not giving it. Go to school or figure it out for yourself. Why would I want to teach you how to do something to improve you that may end up costing me a paycheck? Doesn't make sense does it?

I don't wish for Jeff to leave either, but the above comment was the spark for suggesting otherwise. These forums are supposed to be for the free exchange of information about photography, not a vehicle to protect the income of professionals.


You know CTG I get the feeling your getting a little hot under the collar about defending your choice to give away your work instead of making money off it. I guess I don't understand someone getting mad about defending their right to do something detremental to their finances. So far I have not responded to anything on this thread with a rise in my blood pressure. Can you say that? LOL

Here we are back at the finances thing again, and so again I see a desire on Jeff's part to deal with photography as a business, which is fine. But is this the place for that type of discussion? And, OBTW, hot under the collar I'm not, and high blood pressure is not something I suffer from.

I wish Jeff the best, and I hope he is successful.

Have Fun,

[stopbath]

Although I would rather Indy stick around and continue contributing, we can do without the likes of the article that Rick Rickman of Sports Shooter where he calls the multitudes of wanna-be photographers "people with limited intellectual capacity." Really, name calling shines a poor light on real professional photographers.

Enthusiastic, professional or rank amateur, anybody enjoying photography should be allowed to express themselves through the artform and if they want to 'donate it' or sell it for cheap, or make a living off it. That is their option, not someone elses.

Have a good night.

[Scottes]

I third CDS's statement, and second stopbath's.


I don't have any plans at this time to sell any photos - that's not why I'm doing this. As a result I can easily say that I would never go to an event and underbid a professional doing his job. In fact, I'd do everything possible to make sure he can do his job. (Unless he's a jerk.)

But if someone ever asks to buy a photo, then I'll do so. Maybe not at the going rate due to lack of knowledge, but a rate that makes my time worthwhile, which isn't cheap.

And if I sell a photo that takes money from a pro's pocket then they should try harder.

[Steven M. Anthony]

Now as most of you know I have been a staunch proponent of getting a fair price for your work. I have been greeted with such statements as "who are you to say how much anyone should charge", "I don't see how me giving away a shot is ruining the industry", "why is it that pro photographers think that everyone should charge what the pro's do", and other statements. There are some on here who no, no matter what, can not see the relationship between giving away your work and the decline and fall of the photograhphy industry. Sure you have a job and this is just a hobby or your not looking to make any money off it. Well consider the following article

The Value of Your Labor (http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/1272)

So now you tell me just how many of you still would give away your work because you don't want to make any money off it?

Interesting article. But it's based on the premise that making money is the end goal. For many it is not. I got an unlimited access pass for an endurance race in exchange for taking photos of the team who gave me the pass. I'm not a pro photog, I'm a race fan--and the pictures were, in my view, a fair exchange for the pass I could not have gotten otherwise. So for me, the value was in the access (pits, etc).

Now, of course, I don't give away consulting time--which is what I do for a living. And I suppose a pro photog who gives away work is shooting him/herself in the foot, in the long run. But to chide hobby shooters for giving away work because it hurts the pro industry is a bit much! If you could get total access to the White House by giving the administration some free political advice (no, I don't do political consulting, I just figured access to marketing clients I have wouldn't be all that interesting to anyone!), wouldn't YOU do it?

The real issue is that the pro photog industry isn't insulated from non-pros--like, say, the medical field is. No MD, no practice. If you really want to "save" your industry, work to get some sort of certificate requirement for publishing work. I'll admit, that will be tough given the pubs probably like having the free hobby shooters to use.

Buy hey, if you'd like to pay me for some strategic planning around the issue, I'm available!

[Vegas Poboy]

Here is some interesting articles for review

http://www.editorialphoto.com/contracts/estimator.html
http://www.peterkrogh.com/Pages/digital/asmp.html
http://www.editorialphoto.com/copyright/
http://www.sportsshooter.com/news_story.html?id=883

Maybe this is a little off based but I'm sure it will mean something to others

[ilya]

I stand by my assertion that the lower end of photography is forever changed.

There is nothing anyone can do about it. Its simple math and sheer numbers of folks who have access to digital slrs. They are getting better and better every day. They are growing in number every day. They are 80% of folks on most any forum. Just look at share now compared to a year ago.

That Rick Rickman guy says the same thing, but he's delusional if he thinks that callling people half-wits and citing some numbers with zeros will somehow slow this evolution. In 5 years, I'll bet you that pro photography will be almost entirely B2B (business to business) rather then B2C (business to consumer) except for say weddings and the like. The consumer will take care of themselves, or be willing to pay next to nothing for a soccer picture of little johnny.

The unfortunate part will be that Sears portrait studios will continue to survive and offer the convenience of drive through portraits, and that's not good for anyone. :roll:

[mson]

After taking CTG's advice and reading the idea of this place, which I had done many moons ago, he is right. This is not a place to discuss the business of photography, it is for enthusitst [sic] (I knew I would misspell that LOL).

For all my attempts to educate on the business end of photography, whether it be copyrights, prcing, getting credentials how to market etc, I apologize to anyone who was offended. I actually thought I was helping and being a contributer to this forum, sorry.

Well the welcome message may say it is for enthusiasts, but there are A LOT of questions about the business side of photography. So I don't think it is appropriate for people to say this is not the place to discuss the business.

My opinion? This is a Canon photography forum. People should discuss whatever they want. We should disagree at times, we should agree other times, and we should share our photography experiences. I visit a TiVo forum several times a day and it is a GREAT forum. A large reason it is a great place to visit is because not everything is about TiVo. It is a true community of people who just happen to have TiVo as well. As far as photography forums go, this is the closest thing I have found to the TiVo forum. I'm hoping that as this forum evolves it becomes more of a community where people feel "connected" to each other and also a place where people can as questions about photography and get the answers they need.

In the past month or so there have been a couple of pros that have thought about leaving the forum. If you care what I think, DON'T LEAVE. You may have people that disagree with you but we need different opinions here, otherwise it will just be a bunch of sheep all doing and buying the same thing.

Sorry for the long post.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Also.. keep in mind we only just added a "pro" forum.. so perhaps the "enthusiast" part is not meant to be interpreted as "exclusively enthusiast" in fact I'm sure it was NEVER meant to be exclusive.

[sGu]

I have one thing to say on this subject and thread that I hope many of you will consider.. and I say this as a member..NOT as a moderator.


This forum is made better by the few pros who frequent it.



I say again.
This forum is made better by the few pros that frequent it.


I think we should ALL consider that. I for one would hate to loose Jeff's contribution. I think it would be a sad loss.

I want IndyJeff to be there when I have a question.

CDS

Ditto, we already lost KennyG over some tiny matter, i wouldn't wanna see another one go

[CoolToolGuy]

I certainly am not in a position to dictate who can post on this board - I am not one of the moderators, and I do not wish to be. After rereading this thread I may have been a little harsh. However, I will again refer to the quote that incited that remark:


I will say this, if your giving away your shots, or charging a mere pittance of what they are worth commercially, don't expect to welcomed with open arms by guys who are trying to make a living doing it. If I know your a hobbist and you ask me for advice, I am not giving it. Go to school or figure it out for yourself. Why would I want to teach you how to do something to improve you that may end up costing me a paycheck? Doesn't make sense does it?

It is my opinion that this forum is about enthusiasm for photography with Canon equipment, and the comment by Jeff suggests that he will selectively provide assistance based on whether you are trying to make your living from the craft of photography.


How about I don't post at all? Cornering the pros would be the place where someone would go to get advice so what would be the thinking of posting only there unless it was only available to those working in this business? I would gladly give advice to someone who would be wanting to work in this business and maintain a professional standard but, not to help someone further erode the ability to make a living at it. That would be kind of stupid now wouldn't it?


Jeff then goes on to suggest that even posting in the board designated for the pros is not appropriate since the hobbyists could get that information for free.

Professional photographers are a valuable resource for this forum. I hope that they continue to post here, as we all learn from them. But my guess is that there are far more amateurs visiting these forums than pros, and for one or more of them to suggest that they will not share information with someone who pursues photography for reasons other than income is, in my opinion, counter to the purpose of the forum. This forum flourishes because of the free exchange of ideas. But Jeff wants to insure that his knowledge is only provided to other professionals. That is not a bad thing, but does that attitude belong on forums other than 'Cornering the Pros'? Such topics as copyrights and production techniques may be best known by the pros, but may be very desireable for the hobbyist.

I hope these forums can continue to benefit all levels of photographers, not just the pros.

Rick

[Steven M. Anthony]

Hey CoolToolGuy, I don't blame Jeff for not giving professional secrets away. I do work with lots of business leaders and also conduct focus groups with consumers--consumers will say anything in a group. Business leaders (ceos, cfo, etc. will usually only talk 1-on-1 as they don't want the competition knowing how thy operate.

[CoolToolGuy]

Also.. keep in mind we only just added a "pro" forum.. so perhaps the "enthusiast" part is not meant to be interpreted as "exclusively enthusiast" in fact I'm sure it was NEVER meant to be exclusive.

The attitude that got this thread going was one that wants to exclude someone who is an enthusiast as opposed to a being professional. There is no suggestion that it should be exlusively enthusiast, just that it stick to photography, regardless of the motivation. Otherwise, the pros get all of the benefits of the contributions of others while selectively disseminating the bits and pieces that they think will not threaten their career. Not a fair deal in my mind.

[CoolToolGuy]

Hey CoolToolGuy, I don't blame Jeff for not giving professional secrets away. I do work with lots of business leaders and also conduct focus groups with consumers--consumers will say anything in a group. Business leaders (ceos, cfo, etc. will usually only talk 1-on-1 as they don't want the competition knowing how thy operate.

We're not talking about professional secrets.

[Steven M. Anthony]

yeah, well, no one said life would be fair...! :)

[jgbeam]

Somehow, I don't see the pro's livelihood being challenged by amateurs. When I stand in front of the magazine rack at Borders, my mind is boggled by the sheer number of photographs that are represented on and behind the covers of those magazines. Then I look at the newspapers and books all around the store and the numbers of pro photos magnifies even more. And the catalogs that fill my mailbox every day... the opportunities for pros just seem to be growing, not shrinking. None of those shots are by amateurs. If you could somehow calculate how much money the pros were losing to amateurs, I'll bet it would be mighty small.

Personally, I have probably cost some local pro a tiny bit of money since I now do actors headshots for a community theatre that used to pay for that service, but I'm certainly not putting anyone out of business. I see it as a donation of service to a non-profit community organization.

I agree wholeheartedly that the pros should charge as much as the market will bear for their work, but I really doubt that the amateurs are dragging down the scale. More likely, it's just the normal market competition that keeps pros from setting their fees where they would like them to be.

True, the affordable DSLR's are allowing amateurs to improve the quality of their photography, but I find it hard to believe that the pros are losing out because of that.

An interesting thread, to say the least. I wish more pros would sound off on the topic.

Jim

[Steven M. Anthony]

jgb: While I certainly do not think amateurs should stop doing work for free (what one does with their time IS really up to each of us as individuals), I'm sure doing photos for free has an impact on the industry.

But markets NEVER stay the same. What separates the winners from the losers is how well one adapt to changes in the market. Pros will need to show prospective clients why and how they add value--why they should pay for a pro.

[neil_r]

I have just got back from the local Arts shop, I bought this really neat craft knife, Anyone want their appendix removed, I will do it for free :lol:

N

[Steven M. Anthony]

I'll take the photos of the surgery for free! :)

[IndyJeff]

I certainly am not in a position to dictate who can post on this board - I am not one of the moderators, and I do not wish to be. After rereading this thread I may have been a little harsh. However, I will again refer to the quote that incited that remark:


I will say this, if your giving away your shots, or charging a mere pittance of what they are worth commercially, don't expect to welcomed with open arms by guys who are trying to make a living doing it. If I know your a hobbist and you ask me for advice, I am not giving it. Go to school or figure it out for yourself. Why would I want to teach you how to do something to improve you that may end up costing me a paycheck? Doesn't make sense does it?

It is my opinion that this forum is about enthusiasm for photography with Canon equipment, and the comment by Jeff suggests that he will selectively provide assistance based on whether you are trying to make your living from the craft of photography.

Let me say that when I posted that, I had in mind that someone gets a credential and goes to a sporting event. If you do and the guys who are making a living from that kind of work find out your shooting for the credential, don't expect to be welcomed with open arms. And yes, if you show up at the Indy 500 and tell me your shooting for a publication that I know doesn't pay for images, no I am not going to give you any advice.
That post was a clear example of the author knowing what he meant but, not conveying the idea across in words.


How about I don't post at all? Cornering the pros would be the place where someone would go to get advice so what would be the thinking of posting only there unless it was only available to those working in this business? I would gladly give advice to someone who would be wanting to work in this business and maintain a professional standard but, not to help someone further erode the ability to make a living at it. That would be kind of stupid now wouldn't it?


[/quote="CoolToolGuy"]Jeff then goes on to suggest that even posting in the board designated for the pros is not appropriate since the hobbyists could get that information for free.


Rick

I have no problem offering advice or helping someone but, it seems counter productive to me to offer advice to someone who would use that information to pursue their hobby and maybe take business away from someone making a living at it. Would their images be better than someone doing it for a living? I doubt it.

And I would say that 90% of the advice I have given since day one on this board has been about the business end of it.
I still will read here, and on occasion I will post. If you have a question relating to the business end of it post it or pm me and I will gladly try to be of help to you.


Also thank you to all who offered words of support for me to keep posting. This has been one of my favorite places since I joined. I would venture to say that 90% of the time it is the first board I check when I get online.