Someone Else's Sandbox ...

[Digital Prophet]

Well now I am in a spot. I have a friend that owns the barn where I take most of my horse shots. Well she and the parents of several of the students asked me to accompany them to a show that is happening tomorrow. Well since this was my first organized show to go to I didn't think twice about it. I just told them that I would be happy to go and would be certain to catch some double excellent shots of thier horses and daughters.

Well I didn't give it a second thought until today. So I called up to the ranch where they are having the event to make certain that photography was allowed on thier property. The manager says yes, but that she has a photography vendor and "doesn't want to step oh her toes". Which I can understand.

But my problem is that now I have people that are wanting me there because I have a working history with thier animals and daughters and they are comfortable with my ability and me as a person. But it is technically someone else's sandbox.

Now I can admit that this was going to be my first event where I posted the shots on my site for direct sale. Until now if someone from the barn wanted a shot they asked me and I would run them a print. But since I was anticipating quite a few requests I thought I would go ahead and simplify the matter and get the orders and send the prints off to be run by Snapfish or the like. But now that I can't sell the shots I am not sure how to handle the inevitable requests.

I called the first parent and the mom was real clear on the matter. She said she didn't have a problem paying me regardless of the other photographer because she wanted me to work with her horses and daughter and she had no plans of letting a stranger photograph them.

I guess my plan is to go and take the shots and just charge for the cost of the prints that get done. I really wanted to make this my first big paying horse gig, but I don't want to get run off private property and I don't know how I would feel about it.

See what happens when you go into something unprepared. I mean is it really that different than taking shots for any sport where the facility has a photographer but the parents want someone else's services. Anyway, throw me some input. The event is tomorrow and I will be anxious to get input as to what others would do or how you handle these situations.

- Digital Prophet -

[Pekka]

I called the first parent and the mom was real clear on the matter. She said she didn't have a problem paying me regardless of the other photographer because she wanted me to work with her horses and daughter and she had no plans of letting a stranger photograph them.

I think that paragraph sums it up nicely. Just go and do the job and enjoy it. This is like any event where there are several photographers with different targets/agendas. If you've got a permission to shoot on that property then that means you can shoot there. You have the copyright to the photos and you have subject permissions so you can sell the photos.

Only possibility for any copyright issues I can think of is that if you go shoot the ranch itself as a subject and try to sell those photos. I would make sure the ranch logos and such are framed out of the photos as much as possible.

If there is still some uncertainty the parents and you could have a meeting with the ranch owner and talk about these issues. After all she has a business deal with the parents and surely does not want to make then unhappy by pushing a fixed photographer to all. People are always happy to talk.

Those were my immediate thoughts.

[defordphoto]

Well said, Pekka.

DP: You have permission from the ranch owner and the horse owner. There are no more stamps of approval needed to proceed. If approached by another photographer, just assure them that you're on a specific assignment and have no intention of hoofing in on their territory.

Pun definitely intended. ;)

If you do want photos of the ranch or logos, etc., secure a property release, not unlike a model release, before selling any photos.

And, congrats!!!

P.S. Brings lots of business cards. ;)

[Scottes]

P.S. Brings lots of business cards. ;)

Couldn't that be construed as attempting to hoof on the other photog's territory?

[Digital Prophet]

I appreciate all the input. I have decided to follow the general advice of going to the ranch and shooting my group. Just for clarification my friend owns a barn other than the one we will be at. But I think that I am going to just keep a low profile and go about my business.

But I am thinking that I won't be handing the cards out at the show ranch since I think that would be rude to the other person. Besides, my group knows how to reach me.

Again thanks for the input and advice.

- Digital Prophet -

[defordphoto]

P.S. Brings lots of business cards. ;)

Couldn't that be construed as attempting to hoof on the other photog's territory?

It's a grey area, but I'd give cards if asked only. I would shower the barn with them, just only if asked.

[defordphoto]

I appreciate all the input. I have decided to follow the general advice of going to the ranch and shooting my group. Just for clarification my friend owns a barn other than the one we will be at. But I think that I am going to just keep a low profile and go about my business.

But I am thinking that I won't be handing the cards out at the show ranch since I think that would be rude to the other person. Besides, my group knows how to reach me.

Again thanks for the input and advice.

- Digital Prophet -

Definitely keep a low profile and go about your biz. But, as I said above, I'd still bring cards and ONLY offer if asked. There is nothing wrong with that at all.

However, I predict word of mouth will get out and you'll soon have more biz than you can handle.

[Digital Prophet]

Update:

Well yesterday was the show. And you will all be glad to know that I in fact did not get run off the property.

I got there at 8:30 and met with my group. The class judging started at 9:00 and I was out there in the grand stand shooting until 5:00 in the afternoon.

As for the other photographer I saw them set up inside one of the barns with a logo backdrop. So I figure "hmmm portraits". Well about halfway through the morning I noticed that I was the only person who was out there taking pictures (except for some parents of course). And I am wondering "Where is the official photographer?"

Well at lunch I made my way into the barn where she was set up and introduced myself. Turns out that they are a husband/wife team. And in the course of my speaking with them I learned that they don't shoot action shots at all. Her husband was really snide and obviously not happy to see me there. I explained that I was there with my barn and was taking action shots of only the girls that I had traveled there with. Then there was the usual camera this and lens that. I was (and this will seem tacky) less than impressed by the impression that they gave off. But hey, if people wanna pay them that is thier thing.

I think that I am going to get my shots ready and then contact the ranch owner about being a secondary photography vendor for thier outdoor action/competition shots gor thier next season.

So all in all things went well. I laid low, got my shots and sweat off about 10 pounds and got some color on my face. It was a real learning experience and now I have a better idea of what to expect when we go back for the next show.

Thanks again to everyone that encouraged me to not give up on getting my shots. Support is always welcome.

- Digital Prophet -

[defordphoto]

Congrats! Thanks for the followup. Sounds like you'll do well. Hard to believe those people limit themselves like that, but exclusive photographers many times get lazy and miss the big (ahem) picture.

[JCK]

This was a great post to read. Thanks DP and all, and good luck!

[Mazmanian.net]

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Perhaps a day or two late in response, but a couple ways to handle this kind of (future) situation would be as follows:

(1) First, contact the other photographer and explain the situation. If this person has a problem, they're going to have it regardless of your contact, so it's best to quickly discover how the land lays with this party.

(2) Assuming the other photog is reasonable and agreeable, a call should then be made to the ranch telling them so. If the the other photog is NOT agreeable, a call should still be made to the ranch for further negotiation and clearance: It's their property, so they basically hold the reigns on all parties. No pun intended.

(3) Go and shoot, with free spirit and conscience. These people, after all, are YOUR clients (so to speak): It's not as if you've stolen something.

L.

[Danny Boy]

I also second that this is a great thread. There have been many threads about this subject, people stepping on others territory, but this information is very good and shows another side of the story. My lesson learned is to not be rude, communicate in the best possible way, have a reason for being there, and cover your a** when needed.

Hey, I work for a large corporation... same rules apply, as they do in everyday life. :lol:

Very good everyone.

Dan

[Digital Prophet]

I'm really glad that others have found this to be an informative thread.

As a follow-up I will be returning to this ranch in the next few weeks for a follow up show. And I plan to shoot with a good deal more confidence since I have been there before.

I have also thought about approaching the owner to see if I can get in as thier "action photography" vendor, since thier current vendor is primarily interested in portraits.

When something comes of it I will be sure to let you all know.

- Digital Prophet -

[Moppie]

Just a thought, since your clearly not in direct compitition with the other photograhper have you thought of approaching him and asking about prehaps working together?

Other than being able to share tips and advice, what about sharing customers and resources?
Prehaps offer a deal on an action photo from you, and a posed portrait from him?

Or prehaps you help him with portrait work between events, and he helps you cover the other side of the arena during the events?