20D problems I think

[JZaun]

Ok, I've taken about 300 pics and can't find one I am happy with. The Camera is set on default settings. I have tried it with 4 different lens. It doesn't look like a back or front focus problem. Its just that nothing looks real clear or sharp even after running thru PS. I am shooting Jpeg but have done so for 6000 previous pics with the 10D and was very happy. : I have uploaded 4 100% crops that were then run thru PS. rather than post here I have a link to a folder with all 4 in it.

These were with Prameter 1 but I tried parameter 2 also.

Plz take a look and give me an opinion.. I AM SICK. My 10D is sold and shipped!

link----- http://www.bytegallery.com/showgallery.php/cat/3191

Each pic had the shooting info with it, lens, iso, F # and speed

Thanks for any help you can give. Is it my problem or should I send it back? I don't wanna but I cannot live with it like this!


Jerry

[Steven M. Anthony]

have you actually printed any of these?

[robertdrake]

Okay, this is from a complete digital amature, but I recall seeing someone with this problem in the DP Forum. The answer there had something to do with changing the colour settings from Adobe rgb to sRGB when doing JPG.

[JZaun]

Steven
See no reason to print such a bad pic.. All prev pics look good and print well.

Robert
I am set to sRGB color set up.

thanks

JZ

[Steven M. Anthony]

I only asked because my 10D images always look a little unsharp on my laptop monitor, but look great when printed. Maybe your monitor is having trouble with all thise pixels!

[Jesper]

Hmmm..... when I look at your four photos, they look pretty good to me. Nice, rich colours and they also don't look terribly soft to me. If there's a problem with them, it's not very obvious to me. ???

Are these really 100% crops, i.e. one pixel in the image on screen is one pixel from the image directly from the camera? Did you use a tripod?

[JZaun]

Jesper
Thanks for replying.. These are the best of the 300 or so I have taken. They do not compare to the others in the gallery taken with the 10D. At least not to me. The BF has nothing in focus and the tree knees are very soft. I just took these to a different monitor and they still look the same to me. I even tried difrferent glasses :D ,, Nope I normally have better results. I can't try Raw because I haven't unwraped the software yet. Probably won't unless I can figure what is going on. The bird is about 10' from the lens and I have IS and a window sill to lean on. That is the best I got.

JZ

[Cadwell]

How much sharpening have you done on them, Jerry? I've been told that the MarkII needs much more sharpening than a MarkI or even 10D. Perhaps the 20D is the same?

[kawter2]

have you tried anything other than ISO 100?

[JZaun]

I have done different levels of sharpening and saved what looked the best. I shot a few with iso 400 and wasn't happy with them eighter. I have tried flash straight and bounce,,(Same results). The bird pic is not awful, just not sharp. If you enlarge it there are no feathers in focus and it is less sharp!

I just tried a few more and had a hard time getting the 100-44 to focus at all. Its not real bright because of clouds but it worked with the 10D.

I'm leaning on sending it back to B&H..

The external shipping box was crunched but the inside box looked ok os I accepted it but made note with the UPS man. I am starting to think it got shook too hard...

JZ

[Cadwell]

Send it back, Jerry. You've paid enough money for it and you're never going to be happy with it because you know it's not all it should be.

[PacAce]

Jerry, you're pulling our legs, right? ???

There's nothing wrong with the pictures you posted as fas as I can see. Maybe they can use a little bit more saturation of colors to match your picttures from the 10D (although I honestly don't think you need more saturation) but they look darn sharp and clean on my Apple Cinema Display monitor.

:shock:

[blinking8s]

I'll throw out the "something is wrong with your camera or some ungodly unknown setting is off" because I havent seen or heard about image quality and sharpness, af or anything being off...

[who10]

Send it back, Jerry. You've paid enough money for it and you're never going to be happy with it because you know it's not all it should be.

I agree. The posts you put up do not look right at all. It's almost like the camera is oversharpening all the edges. There are two things you might want to try - go to the config menu and "reset paramenters" to factory defaults (even if you didn't change anything) to put the camera in a known state. Then set the image quality to Raw+JPG (highest quality jpg). Load up the new EOS File Viewer/Converter utility and compare Raw conversions with camera JPGs. I noticed dramatic quality difference between my raw conversions and the camera produced jpgs (but nothing like the image quality you have shown as examples). In my own very brief history with the 20D no image has been worse than an equivelant 10D pic.

David

[JZaun]

Pac Ace

Now I am really confused. These pics are not clear to me on my monitor, My 10d pics are! The BF for instance, I see nothing in focus on it :? Jesper said the same thing you are, but really it looks bad here!!! I am gonna put a couple of 10d pics in that same folder so you can compare.

Honest I am not kidding, I just tried another indoors batch with the same results. To me on my monitor they are not as good as my 10d pics. I tried a print of the BF also and whilt print is better it is still not real sharp.

Am I loseing it ? are my eyes gone I don't know. :?

JZ

[PacAce]

BTW, Jerry, what did you set your Parameter 1 and Parameter 2 to? If you didn't set it, I think the default is that all the ettings are set to 0.

[who10]

When I get home I'll take a look at the pics again on my Mac... it's pretty hard to judge what I'm seeing on my laptop at work...

David (Still think you should take a look at a few raw conversions)

[blinking8s]

email to someone or upload the original filez and post them...see what others think

[PacAce]

Pac Ace

Now I am really confused. These pics are not clear to me on my monitor, My 10d pics are! The BF for instance, I see nothing in focus on it :? Jesper said the same thing you are, but really it looks bad here!!! I am gonna put a couple of 10d pics in that same folder so you can compare.

Honest I am not kidding, I just tried another indoors batch with the same results. To me on my monitor they are not as good as my 10d pics. I tried a print of the BF also and whilt print is better it is still not real sharp.

Am I loseing it ? are my eyes gone I don't know. :?

JZ

Jerry, your 10D pictures have a little more saturation than that of the 20D but more importantly, your 10D BF has a lot more shapening applied than the 20D pic does. The 20D pic seems like it hardly has any sharpening applied at all. Try bumping up your sharpening some more on the 20D and see how it comes out for you.

[gerolamo]

the 10D samples look much sharper. Were they processed from raw? I'd say give it a shot with raw for the 20d also.

[eastcoast909]

Jerry:

I must agree with you. These don't look as sharp as your 10D pics that you have up for reference.

The one of the tree, 0133, is great until it gets back to the knobs as you say. Everything is in focus in the front of the pic but as you get farther to the background it falls off and gets soft.

The bird, 0172, is the same. The leading edge of the head and the wing seem to be sharp and in focus but the body, as it goes farther back in the picture gets soft again.

Its as if all your lens are front focusing, quite a bit, and I would definately expect quite a bit better with the 400 IS.

Did you try to see where the lens/camera combination are focusing?

I can't give you much help this way other than to confirm that what you are saying on the pics I can see on my monitor.

I hope that you can get this straightened out, I know that youv'e been waiting on pins and needles waiting for the 20D.

good luck,

[Scottes]

Jerry, this sucks. I hope you get it figured out, and soon.

The hell with service though. Order another now, and return one of them. At the very least you'll have 2 identical cameras for some quick tests.

[JZaun]

Thanks for the replies... I just took identical pic's. Did not move the camera at all. Same light etc. When I sharpened, one pic took almost 400 to sharpen the other only took 60 to get the same results.. Something is wrong. The 50mm F1.8 has a problem focusing :? and the date/clock reset itself to "0" now 3 times :? I think I am gonna get a RA number when B&H returns Sunday and see if I can get another. 350 pics and not a one I would keep.. some not real bad, just not up to what I was getting with the 10. All the pics I posted were of still subjects. Even the bird and BF sat there for quite a while, I probably ahd 10 pics of eash, I posted the best!. I was exsecting pics equal to and better thand the 10 and with the newer AF I hoped to get more keepers :? So far NONE>>

Durn

No camera again :(

JZ

[leony]

looks like camera shake problem. check your shutter speed.

[phili1]

Jerry. Were you shooting macro, were you using a tele and did you check your histogram left arrow. The pics you posted look good to me just very shallow deph of field, which would cause the edges that some comments had.

All reports say it is awsome focusing system.

Some Mfg lense have problems at certain mm, what lenses are you using. The 20 D sensor is smaller then the 10D.

The comment about the Rgbs should not make that much difference. I have a G3 and have to tweek the black balance everytime and then the pictures are sharp. A little off on the histogram and you can get that.

[Scottes]

Jerry, I'd return it, but you could gain some time by ordering another one today. B&H won't just send you another, they'll charge you (I tried once). So gain a couple/few days and order one from somewhere. B&H probably doesn't have any more in stock anyway.

[maderito]

Jerry,

Correct me if I'm wrong.

These sample 20D shots with a 100 mm macro lens mostly have fairly slow shutter speeds (1/60) and relatively wide apertures (f/4.0 to 5.6) compared to comparable images in your other galleries. Were your lighting conditions suboptimal? Are we seeing slightly OOF images due to shallow DOF, subject movement, and/or camera shake? Is the saturation and contrast less than expected because of the lighting conditions?

I personally don't think the problem with the 20D images is related to camera sharpening parameters. A tack sharp, well-exposed image requires minimal sharpening to bring it to life. Either your shooting conditions were not great or there's something wrong with the camera or lens.

Admittedly - these are very quick impressions.

[LazyPhotographer]

1/60 is kinda slow.. did you use a tripod? Try some shots on a tripod with auto & manual focus.

[JZaun]

1/60 is kinda slow.. did you use a tripod? Try some shots on a tripod with auto & manual focus.

I agree the 1/60 is kinda slow :) but the point is I took over 100 shots of BF's at different speeds and that was the best! The Bird was still at 10' with a IS lens,, I took 45 pics of birds at that distance and that was ther best. I have no keepers after over 300 pics. :? ( Note: my numbers were being reset, it is set for continious now)

I am going to test some tomorrow but I still think something is wrong. I DO NOT want to send it back!! I won't have a camera at all and don't know when I will be able to get another :?

PS the tree roots was shot with the 100mm proped up with a bridge railing @ 1/250 and it was a ways away so the dof should have covered it...Its just not sharpe anywhere in the pic.

:)

JZ

[defordphoto]

I don't see anything wrong with those 20D shots. That shot of the bird is excellent! In fact, the butterfly's look oversharpened to me. Many of your 10D shots are on the verge of being oversharpened.

I'll bet you have the same problems no matter what 20D camera you get.

Take no offense, but I think you're a bit obsessed with sharpness. It's quite a common affliction with digital photographers.

Show us a few you consider bad, without being grossly out of focus, of course. Also, do NO processing on them.

[phili1]

Hey maybe 30 years of photography has gotten to my eyes but your pic look good to me on my monitor but hey mine only been spyded phocaled so.

Your butterfly shots look great, shallow depth of field, but the fly is in focus.

your tree roots look not sharp because of the color, the tree bark is in focus. Tweeked in histogram will bring it where its supposed to be with a little more contrast. some shots look washed out and appear not sharp but when tweeked they jump off the paper.

So you know 1/125 of a second does not mean you didnt get camera shake. A 100 mm lens need 1/125 of a sec min and you cant breath or you get shake, and an F stop on 100mm of 3.5 has a very shallow depth of field so if your not focused on the main subject you going to get out of focused areas.

If you want to do a test tripod mount it

[Persian-Rice]

They look great to me, one look a touch soft but nothing noticeable unless you are looking for it.

If you aren't happy try to have it exchanged, if you think its still not as good as you wish, $1500 is not a little amount of money, you might want to go for something else. That said, I think you are umm being maybe a little paranoid or as RFMSports said, you are just sharp crazy like many of us. They really do look fine to me.

If you are really uncomfortable with the sharpness, shoot with the lens stopped down and run some tests. This helps you adjust the amount you sharpen the thing without worrying about the DOF.

Cheers.

[Deckyon]

Seems like a perfect example of not buying the full gear online. I am getting mine in a local store, even if it a tad bit more.

[who10]

Jerry, now that I can see your pics on my home CRT I even more strongly suggest you take a few raw pictures and convert them before you make your final assessment of the camera. Take a look at this image (the full res version).. I picked out a shot without much color to emphasize the contrast difference I've noted. You may simply need to adjust your jpg settings to taste (finding out what you suits you best by tweeking the RAW settings in EOS Viewer Utility).

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=300250#300250

If you still find them of poor quality in RAW as well - then return the 20D to B&H.

Just a thought... David

[JOKI]

JZaun,
You're right! THERE IS a problem. Many people around is saying the some!
Send't back! Cool down and see. It may save you some 2000+
My 2's

[JZaun]

Jim, you may be right :) but I uploaded the original BF pic. Sorry Its the only one I can find, deleted the rest, I only found that one in the recycle bin. It has no processing, only cropped. You can see it is very soft and it was the best of around 100 pics shot at that time. That kind of BF shot is fairly easy and he held very still for me. I normally have 10 keepers out of a 100 at the BF house:? I got none! If you guys still think they are clear and sharp, maybe I need to look at them again on another monitor but my 10d shots still look ok to me on this monitor. Even If I am too picky I should get a few I like out of 300m :? shouldn't I?

More testing today, I got 14 days to return so I'm going to try again to be happy, I wanted this guy as bad as any one and still do! I love everything about it except its pics!!!

JZ

[Belmondo]

More testing today, I got 14 days to return so I'm going to try again to be happy, I wanted this guy as bad as any one and still do! I love everything about it except its pics!!!

JZ

Let me see. 14 days, 300 shots per day.
They're going to love getting a camera back with 4,200 shots on it. :lol:

[JZaun]

Ok I think I got it figured out. I posted the Atkins test and my 20D was ok. So next was the tripod test of real life shots. I took a few, all at 1/125. See them here

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=43066

It seems evident the problem is ME!! Here is what I think. The 10D body is about the weight of 1 battery heaver than the 20D body. That that plus the handle and 2 batteries, my 10D was quite a bit heaver then my 20D as I am useing it. The heaver camera is easier to hold steady without quiver or shake. It appears that I have just developed poor camera hold habits :? I have ordered the BG-E2!!!!! Now I gotta build up some strength.. My old heart can't take much more stress :lol: :lol:

Thank you everyone who replied

JZ

[Steven M. Anthony]

Good News! I had the oposite happen going from my sony 707 (very light) to the 10D. I found my low shutter speed shots were so clear I thought they gave me a IS lens by mistake!