Crisp 8\" by 10\" prints out of the D30 ?

[LEC_D30]

First of all, let me congratulate Pekka for this fantastic site. It has been a very good place to learn things about Canon digital photography !.

I am trying to make crip prints out of pictures taken using the D30 from Canon. I am using an Epson Stylus Photo 785EPX and Premium Glossy Paper. I can get very sharp prints up to 5 by 7 in. with no problem. However, if I try to do it in an 8 by 10, I get good pictures but not really sharp. I can actually see some detail lost.
I am printing from Photoshop 5.0 with ICC profile for my printer. The colors are fairly good. I normally resize the picture using bicubic interpolation in PS 5. I sharpen the image in Lab mode on the lightness channel so I can minimize noise.

Still the prints are not fully convincing. Has anyone got better luck than I on this activity ? If so, How did you do it ?

Thanks for your feedback !

[bnsfr]

I find shooting in RAW results in crisp 8x10s. Are you doing that?

[LEC_D30]

I have tried different ways, including RAW. Maybe I am too picky. I am almost to the point of thinking that the D30 is not really for pictures larger than 5 by 7 in. Maybe I am wrong. What do you use to resize the pictures to 8" by 10" at 300dpi ?

Thanks.

[gnoles]

I've had very good luck with Fred Miranda's Stair Interpolation. It increases the file in steps instead of all at once. I even took a 1" crop out of a G2 image and it was sharp all the way to 5x7.
YMMV. ;)

www.fredmiranda.com

[LEC_D30]

Looks like I will have to upgrade to Photoshop 6.0 so I can use SI.

Thanks for your feedback. I will try it.

[BobbyC]

What USM settings are you using? I have made very sharp pics up to 11x14 and been very satisfied with 16x20's made with my D30. In comparison to my 35mm film camera, even the 16x20's look better.

[LEC_D30]

I am not really sure what USM means.


What I do is to resize the picture in Photoshop 5 to a size of 7" by 10.2". When this is done, I print the pictures at 1440 dpi using Epson premium glossy photo paper. To do the resizing, bicubic interpolation is used.

Thanks.

[Roger_Cavanagh]

lec_d30 wrote:
I am not really sure what USM means.


What I do is to resize the picture in Photoshop 5 to a size of 7" by 10.2". When this is done, I print the pictures at 1440 dpi using Epson premium glossy photo paper. To do the resizing, bicubic interpolation is used.

Thanks.

USM means UnSharp Mask. If you have been printing your D30 images out of the camera with no processing beyond what you describe, then you are _definitely_ not getting the best from your camera.

Can you describe your workflow in more detail, so we can offer suggestions?

Regards,

[droosan]

What lenses are you using? And at what apertures and speeds?
Whenever you change the absolute resolution of a picture (resample) you'll lose sharpness. You may be able to get some perceived sharpness back with various PS filters.

5x7 at 300 dpi is 300x300x5x7 = 3.15 million pixels. Hence that's about as big as you can get from the 3MP D30 with maximum sharpness if you're printing at 300dpi. You can get to 8x10 either by printing at lower resolution, say 200 dpi, (Have you tried that?) or by resampling to 7.2MP (300x300x8x10) which will lose you sharpness.

[LEC_D30]

Ok. This is the process that I use:

1) Open the picture (tif or jpg).
2) Resize the image to 7" by 10.2 (is the maximum that I am allowed without cropping the picture) at 300 dpi's.This is done by PS bicubic interpolation.
3) Convert it to Lab mode
4) Select lightness channel
5) Do the sharpening on this channel since this minimizes noise.
6) I have tried different levels of sharpening. The two most used are
a)amount=300, radius=0.7,Thold=0
b) amount=80, radius=6, Thold=0
7) Once sharpened I convert the file back to RGB mode
8) Finally I send the image to print using the Epson Stylus Photo 785EPX ICC profile.

Now, the question that I have is what is the lowest value of dpi's to get a good picture. Is 200 dpi still a good number ?

Thanks for all your replies.

[chris maddock]

I've been very happy with the 12" x 8" @ 180dpi prints that I've had from my D30.

KRs
Chris

[mrbobco]

i think somebody will surely correct me here...but unless i'm mistaken, your dpi must be evenly divisible into 360 (or 180) 300 and 200 don't fall into that category...

i've had very good luck printing on my photo 820 using linear tiffs with pekka's linear shapren 3.42 (HQ, low sharpening and making sure to convert the file's profile back to standard rgb)

i use 180 dpi resizing with bicubic interpolation...

the problem may actually be the printer...or the ink...i can't speak for anybody else, but i've found that using the genuine epson ink, i have less problems with clogging and better quality prints (it really COULD be a superstition too...but i've tried the bargain inks and had nothing but headaches) atlantic exchange (www.atlex.com) is a good source for genuine epson ink at lower prices than most other suppliers...

i DO think that shooting with a tiff (instead of a lossy jpeg) will put you much further ahead in the sharpness/detail game...

just my two cents worth...

bob

[grobyn]

Geeesh....all of this technical talk for a simple problem.

First I have to ask, when you download the pictures from the camera, what resolution are you using when you transfer?

I download at 2400DPI, save to a non-compressed jpg, do a Sharpen or Sharpen More in Photoshop 6.0, (depends on how sharp I want it) then do a Save As, and name the file. This creates a file anywhere from 2.5 - 4.5MB.

I am printing 20x40's from these images in the lab and they are crystal clear. I am printing 8x12's on my HP 932C with excellent results, using HP gloss and matte paper. Sometimes it is hard to tell if it was a shot I printed or one I had done at the lab on print paper.

Of course this file when downloaded at 2400DPI is very large and will not fit on the screen at 100%, but for printing that is what I do. If I want them for viewing, I make a second folder and just reduce them to 600x400 in Photoshop, and then do another Save As and close and I have a 2400DPI 4x6 image that is about 150-200KB, but can fit on a normal monitor.

Forget all of the fancy "interpolarizing" and "UM" and try this and see what you get for results. I have been doing this with my D30 for a year and with my D60 for 4 months and my clients, most of them professional models, actors, and businesses and are more than happy with the results.

[Roger_Cavanagh]

LEC_D30,

First off, you cannot get 10x8's from a D30 image without cropping. The proportions are wrong: you have 6x9, 7x10.5, 8x12... Since your workflow does not mention you always crop, I am going to assume no cropping in my discussion.

I would also recommend that for best quality, you should always shoot raw. If you shoot in-camera JPG, you are throwing away data, first, because you are only using 8-bits when the D30 captures 12, and secondly, you throwing away data with the JPG compression.

I think you could improve your sharpening, but I have two different suggestions.

I'd like to deal initially with the DPI issue as this applies to both suggestions. I have an Epson, although it's not the same model as yours. It's my understanding that most Epsons operate with DPI like 720, 1440, and 2880, and that it is better to set the print resolution to a number that divides evenly into these, e.g., 240 or 360. I use 240, and I would suggest you try that or 180. 360 is probably going to use more ink without any noticeably improvement, but it's always worth testing.

I use BreezeBrowser and this has an option that sets the DPI in TIFF conversion. If you cannot do this or have a JPG file, then change the print resolution in Photoshop to 240 before you do any processing. Make sure that you have resample image OFF. You do not want to change the pixel dimensions of the image. This will give you a starting size of 6x9 inches. As far as I know, there is no way to change the print resolution of a JPG from the default of 72 without using PS (or other editing software).

For the rest of the discussion I will assume that we are working with a print resolution of 240, which as I said, gives us a starting image that would print at 6x9. This is the same for TIFF, linear TIFF and JPG.

The first suggestion is to shoot raw and convert to linear TIFF, then use Pekka's LinearSharpen action to convert and process the image file.

The download page for LS is here: http://photography-on-the.net/D30/linear/

Or you can use LinearSharpenMenu that I created. This is based on LS, but has more options and is restructured somewhat. The download page is here: http://www.rogercavanagh.com/scripts/lsm0.htm

As far as I am concerned, the LinearSharpen method gives the best results from my D30.

Processing with the LinearSharpen method produces a final image that has already been sharpened, but may benefit from other processing. I often make small levels and curves adjustment, and/or use something like Fred Miranda's Digital Velvia to improve the colour.

BTW the file is converted to 16-bit linear TIFF and stays in 16-bit throughout the editing process.

We now have a completed image at 6x9 ready to print. I often print this size on European A4; it's a reasonable viewing size and gives a nice large border. However, if we want to print larger, then we must resize the image. Assuming we are using Photoshop Bicubic and not any third party options, such as Genuine Fractals, I have proved to my total satisfaction that it is better not to resize in one step, but to resize in increments of 110%. Suppose we want to print 7x10.5. I would do one resize using pixel dimensions with a value of 110%. This would give 6.6x9.9. The I would do a second resize, using document dimensions to give exactly 7x10.5. Using this technique I have upsized images to 18x12 and printed with with perfectly satisfactory results.

Now apply the colour profile for our printer/paper combination and print!

My second suggestion applies to standard (non-linear) TIFF and JPG. The workflow will differ because, given the choice, it is better to leave sharpening to the end of editing.

We've loaded the image and set print resolution to 240.

Apply all the edits that are required, levels, curves, colour adjustment, touch-ups with the clone/healing brush.

Resize the image using the same method as described earlier. We are now ready to sharpen.

The Unsharp Mask improves the appearance of an image because it identifies boundaries or edges in the image and strengthens the contrast between these edges. One edge is made darker, the other lighter. If too much sharpening is applied, you will get artefacts appearing; haloes, that I expect you have seen in your experiments to find the best USM settings, show around different areas of the image.

The generally accepted method to counteract this effect is to use edge sharpening. This method involves first identifying the edges in an image, apply a strong USM to these parts of the images and a lesser USM to the rest. The LinearSharpen action incorporates this technique.

You can do this yourself; if you go to this page http://www.rogercavanagh.com/library/index.htm on my site, you will find a link to "A Discussion on Sharpening". There is an explanation of how to do edge sharpening at some point.

There are a number of free and low cost Photoshop add-ons that you can get to do edge sharpening for you. Personally, I would recommend Fred Miranda's EdgeSharpen Pro http://www.fredmiranda.com/ES_PRO16bit/index.html at USD15. This is not to say there aren't good, free options, but I haven't tried them all. :) ESPro (like other options) uses USM, but includes extra stuff like the Find Edges filter to target those areas of the image that will benefit most.

Fred Miranda has many actions, some are specific to the D30, others are for any camera. They are, by and large, worth the few dollars he charges.

One thing I have found is that upsized images usually require stronger USM settings.

grobyn mentions the "sharpen" and "sharpen more" filters. There is also a "sharpen edges" filter. These are "off-the-shelf" options that are easy to apply, but like off-the-shelf suits don't always give the best fit. :) They also work only on 8-bit images. The USM filter gives more control and works with 16-bit images, giving the best image data and the best quality result.

That's all. :)

Regards,

[LEC_D30]

Thanks for all your feedback.

I will need some time to try all your suggestions. I will let you knoiw my results ASAP.


Thanks again !

[NedLofton]

I am shooting with a Canon D60. Would someone please tell me exactly, and completely what my "Color Settings" should be in PhotoShop 7.0?!? Thank you so much!

[LEC_D30]

Ok. I am back.

I used the recommendations provided by Roger and now I am getting better prints. I found also a problem on my workflow due to the fact that I was converting the RAW files to JPG files instead of TIFF 16-bit.

However, I have some questions related to this.

When I choose the option to convert the RAW file of a picture using the linear approach, the image gets really dark, and the only way I can correct this although not with very good results is by enabling the post-process.

1) Am I doing something wrong here? I use breeze browser.
2) When I have a tiff 16-bit picture open on Photoshop 5.5, I can not sharp the image. I have to convert it to tiff 8-bit. Am I losing quality by doing this ?
3)Are the sharpening actios you have referred to capable of working with tiff 16-bit files ?

Thanks for your help !

[Roger_Cavanagh]

When I choose the option to convert the RAW file of a picture using the linear approach, the image gets really dark, and the only way I can correct this although not with very good results is by enabling the post-process.

1) Am I doing something wrong here? I use breeze browser.
2) When I have a tiff 16-bit picture open on Photoshop 5.5, I can not sharp the image. I have to convert it to tiff 8-bit. Am I losing quality by doing this ?
3)Are the sharpening actions you have referred to capable of working with tiff 16-bit files ?

I'm glad things are improving. :)

Linear files will be very dark because they are not gamma (brightness) corrected. Try using Pekka's LinearSharpen that I referred to in my previous post. LS does all the necessary adjustment and sharpening. The reason for using linear is that the camera does the minimum of processing - no sharpening, no contrast, no saturation - so you can use the power of Photoshop to get the best end result.

I never owned PS before 6, so I'm guessing that 5.5 does not support USM on 16-bit. I strongly recommend that you upgrade to at least V6, if not V7. On those versions, all the sharpening techniques I mentioned will work on 16-bit TIFF. This reminds me that I don't know whether LS works on PS5.5 either. If it does not, believe me, being able to use LinearSharpen is a solid gold reason to upgrade - no foolin' :)

If you'd like some proof, send me a CRW file and I'll process it and send you a high quality JPG back (a TIFF would probably be too big): roger_cavanagh@lycos.co.uk.

You will lose some quality converting from 16- to 8-bit, but, at the end of the day, you still have to convert to 8-bit (or rather PS does it for you) to print. Personally, I stay in 16-bit as long as I possibly can. It causes me pain to throw away good data. :)

Regards,

[LEC_D30]

Thanks for your answer Roger. I will be sending you a raw file soon.
I am upgrading to Photoshop 6 later this week.

Based on your comments some new questions come up:

1) Should I correct the gamma, color, etc using the breeze browser options or should I convert the image without post processing and correct it in Photoshop ?

2) Is photoshop 7.0 capable of prrinting tiff 16-bit files?

3) If I save a .jpg picture as .tif, would I gain something on quality ?


Thanks for your time !

[Roger_Cavanagh]

lec_d30 wrote:
Thanks for your answer Roger. I will be sending you a raw file soon.

Okey dokey.

I am upgrading to Photoshop 6 later this week.

Wise choice. :)

Based on your comments some new questions come up:

1) Should I correct the gamma, color, etc using the breeze browser options or should I convert the image without post processing and correct it in Photoshop ?

If you are converting to linear TIFF, then do no post-processing in BB. I don't use BB processing options because I prefer to use Photoshop. It is my understanding that BB users will often convert straight from raw to a finished JPG using BB. This may suit their purposes, but IMO will not get the absolute best quality images.

2) Is photoshop 7.0 capable of prrinting tiff 16-bit files?

It's my understanding that desktop printers will convert to 8-bit. You can send a 16-bit image for printing, but it will get converted by the printer. However, you can use the proofing tools in PS to ensure you get as close as possibel to the desired image.

3) If I save a .jpg picture as .tif, would I gain something on quality ?

No, but you will avoid causing further data loss through compression. Every time you edit and save a JPG, the compression algorithms will kick in and more image data will go down the Swanee. :) To ensure this does not happen either save as a PSD or TIFF for 16-bit images. With TIFF you can use LZW compression, which is lossless.

This is true even if you start with a JPG from the D30. Load to PS and save as PSD/TIFF. The only time I ever save as JPG is when I want an image to post on my web site or to forums like this.


Thanks for your time !

You're welcome. :)

[LEC_D30]

Roger,

Do you have or use a process to make the dark linear images clear and colorful in PS?

The problem that I am having when I open a picture that was converted as a linear tiff is that I can not get nice colors on the pictures.

I try to play a little bit with the levels and then with the brightness and contrast but the results are very poor. Is there another way to change the gamma ?


Thanks again for your help !

[Roger_Cavanagh]

Do Photoshop actions like LinearSharpen not work with PS 5.5? I don't know as I never owned 5.5.

If they do not then, I would stick with non-linear TIFF conversion until you get the PS6 upgrade.

I just checked on Fred Miranda's site from which I gather that there are some differences in 5.5 and 6 wrt to his actions, so it may be true for LS.

Have you tried to run LinearSharpen?

[darrell]

maybe not exactly what you wanted, but when all else fails, I send mine out to get printed by a pro lab. tiff images on a cdr, and I don't have to mess with it. Last set turned out perfectly.

[LEC_D30]

My understanding is that LS will not work with PS 5.0 or 5.5. I am probably wrong. I am not sure if I ever tried that or not. I will evaluate that possibility.

I sent you the picture but your inbox will not accept it since the file is too large (2.X MB).

I will lwt you know my findings on LS.

Regards.

[LEC_D30]

Ok. I have tried LS but PS 5.0 will not open it since it is not compatible with this version. I will wait then until I receive PS 6.

Will update you with my results...

[Roger_Cavanagh]

lec_d30 wrote:

I sent you the picture but your inbox will not accept it since the file is too large (2.X MB).

B@st@rds! Excuse my French. :) It's supposed to have 15mb limit, but Lycos email has been playing up big time. I guess I have to look for another provider.

Regards,

[Roger_Cavanagh]

lec_d30,

I have signed up for a fastmail account, which provides much more space.

If you still like me process a file using LinearSharpen, send the CRW file to roger_cavanagh@fastmail.fm.

Cheers,

[LEC_D30]

Roger,

I have already sent it to your new e-mail address,

Thanks again for your help.

Luis