Fine Art Print Sales - Limited vs. Open Edition Run

[sapearl]

For those of you who sell fine art prints, do you sell them as limited editions - ie. 1/20, or as open editions where you can reprint any quantity at any time in the future?

A well established local gallery has contacted my on behalf of one of their clients, to purchase one of my prints. We've been negotiating price and these two options were presented to me. Anything that has "limited availability" is more valuable, since there are fewer of them in circulation. Something that can reproduced at will is less valuable.

This particular gallery would price a L.E. Print 75% higher than the O.E. version of it. So basically it's an odds game in a way if you go for the L.E. sale. You are betting that the gallery will sell fewer prints in your lifetime, but at the higher price. What are your preferences? Thanks in advance. - Stu

[CyberDyneSystems]

I was informed when asking this question from knowledgeable gallery operators and art buffs, that until you have established some form of name for yourself, the value of the limited run is negligible.

On the filpside, "a name" is not meant in the sense of big time, but even local around town recognition, and who knows what happens once you do start to establish yourself locally, you may wish in hindsite that you had started a limited run.

I'd say best advice is to ask your contact at the gallery what they think. In your area it may be a good idea to start with limited additions .. ?

Limited runs are often starting at 100 or so, is this likely to pose a problem with your sales?Do you have to state the number? :lol:

[cdifoto]

Hehe limited to only 999,999!


PS: I have nothing constructive to add, as usual. :)

[strmrdr]

limited but a large number like 100 or 200 for a local market.
limited 5000 for nationwide distribution.

Then when you get really well know get mega bucks for 1 of 20s...

[strmrdr]

Iv also seen 1 of 20 for 16x20 1 of 500 for 8x10 and 1 of 5000/unlimited for 5x7 of the same image done.
With prices too match...

[sapearl]

Hello Jake - shalom :D. Thank you for your comments, I appreciate it. My name is fairly well established in the area as a wedding and bar mitzvah photographer, but not at all as a producer of fine art prints. At this point there's little recognition on that score.

The gallery has been fairly "talkative" and we've established some comfortable communication. It would be quite easy to directly ask them what their concept of a limited run is. The print in question will only fetch a couple of hundred dollars before they archivally mat and frame it, so we're not my first fortune :lol:. I'm just pleased that my gallery popped up on her Google radar.

Regarding a print run of 100, I'd be delighted if I sold that many at the specified size so it's likely not a problem.

I was informed when asking this question from knowledgeable gallery operators and art buffs, that until you have established some form of name for yourself, the value of the limited run is negligible.

On the filpside, "a name" is not meant in the sense of big time, but even local around town recognition, and who knows what happens once you do start to establish yourself locally, you may wish in hindsite that you had started a limited run.

I'd say best advice is to ask your contact at the gallery what they think. In your area it may be a good idea to start with limited additions .. ?

Limited runs are often starting at 100 or so, is this likely to pose a problem with your sales?Do you have to state the number? :lol:

[sapearl]

Your presence alone adds delightful ambience cdi :D - that in and of itself is constructive.

Hehe limited to only 999,999!


PS: I have nothing constructive to add, as usual. :)

[notapro]

Well, I don't know much about this stuff at all, so I'm kinda with cdi here.

Personally, I think I'd choose to go limited edition mostly because if I were going to purchase a print for my home, I would want it to be something fairly rare. I wouldn't want it to start showing up on greeting cards at the corner store. I guess I'm just a snob that way :p

You already know I think your work is fantastic, but to follow on what CDS says, if it takes having a name to make LE prints worthwhile, then I think you should go for it, because if this is something you choose to pursue, I think you will have a name particularly around Cleveland. Consider the source, but that's my two cents.

[liza]

Fascinating subject, Stuart. I'd like to put forth some effort in this area for the festival season in our town. There's a celebration every Friday all summer long which culminates in a mid-September fall fest, all with a great deal of foot traffic to my location. There's also a gallery in Indianapolis that supports new artists. I may contact them to put out a few feelers, time permitting.

As for limiting the edition, I'd probably not do that until I was better established.

[CannedHeat]

I think CyberDyne is correct. Issuing a "limited edition" of a print, lithograph, etc. is usually predicated upon the fact that purchase of the item is also an investment; i.e., as a marketing tool. An example can be seen in the lead paragraph on this page of art.com (http://www.art.com/asp/le/default-asp/_/default.htm).

Prints marketed as investments would normally be associated with known, established artists, the reputations of which the purchaser of the limited edition can have some confidence, based on past history and reputation, that the investment will increase in value. A definition of limited edition can also be found in wikipedia (such as wikipedia is, but that's another thread altogether.) /Dan

[S.Horton]

Congratulations!!!

Would you mind sharing what type of paper/processing/framing you'll be going with?

[sapearl]

Hi Amanda - I still value your opinion ;).

You make a very good point about the "rarity" issue. People who invest in that sort of thing want to feel they now own something special and uncommon.... something they won't see on the walls of their friends or the a chain of Holiday Inn lobbies. I don't feel you're being a snob in that view either. I rather view it as an investment strategy.

I admit when I was first approached with the concept of L.E. my reaction was: "Gee, why should I have somebody tell me I can't sell anymore of a particular item." I'm seeing now that was somewhat of a narrow and immature reaction on my part. If I'm taking the long view there are other things to take into consideration.

Btw - thank you for the compliment on my work. It's an ongoing process, and creativity to me is like and itch that's constantly gotta' be scratched. If I'm not out shooting or trying to come up with new ideas I get really antsy :confused:.


Well, I don't know much about this stuff at all, so I'm kinda with cdi here.

Personally, I think I'd choose to go limited edition mostly because if I were going to purchase a print for my home, I would want it to be something fairly rare. I wouldn't want it to start showing up on greeting cards at the corner store. I guess I'm just a snob that way :p

You already know I think your work is fantastic, but to follow on what CDS says, if it takes having a name to make LE prints worthwhile, then I think you should go for it, because if this is something you choose to pursue, I think you will have a name particularly around Cleveland. Consider the source, but that's my two cents.

[sapearl]

Sounds like you're in an excellent "traffic pattern" Liza for some possible sales, and at the very least some excellent exposure. Contacting the Indy gallery is something I'd certainly look into. Even if you decide not to go with them, you'll get some idea about the "mood" of sales, expectations on the part of the gallery, and a better sense of the market.

The LE thing....hmmmm - I' leaning TOWARDS that at this point. Even though I am not yet established as a fine art producer, the LE badge might be a good marketting move at creating a sense of scarcity and value. I've always been told that from a collectors/investors viewpoint, that's what the art world is all about.;)

Fascinating subject, Stuart. I'd like to put forth some effort in this area for the festival season in our town. There's a celebration every Friday all summer long which culminates in a mid-September fall fest, all with a great deal of foot traffic to my location. There's also a gallery in Indianapolis that supports new artists. I may contact them to put out a few feelers, time permitting.

As for limiting the edition, I'd probably not do that until I was better established.

[cdifoto]

Maybe you could go to the other extreme and only create one. Is that even a legitimate option? I have no idea.

[sapearl]

Well, I certainly could do that - basically that's pretty much what painters do all the time. It worked for Van Gogh, Rembrandt, Picasso....:lol: although I have a bit more work to get to that level.

But you do make a thoughtful point. What is the balance between scarcity and longterm sales? What are the odds that a photographer will 5, 25, 100 or 500 of an item? Obviously many factors will influence this: notoriety, aesthetic appeal, past worth/value, availability in the market place.... In spite of what you claim cdi, you always have some constructive to add :D

Maybe you could go to the other extreme and only create one. Is that even a legitimate option? I have no idea.

[sapearl]

Thank you for that link Dan. The art.com site makes for an interesting read and view. One thing I noticed about the photography section was that most of the LE print runs were 950 (conspicuously under 1000) with some being lower at 125. I wonder if this was arbitrary to boost perceived value of a particular item, or if somebody was using following some sort of art sales formula.

The other question I have concerns actual production runs. In lithography and other forms of printing it's more economical to print several hundred or thousand of an item since you have to prepare the plates, ink the press, cleanup, etc. It's different though when printing a silver gelatin B/W print in the darkroom, or on an Epson 9800.

So, once a photographer has decided upon a LE production run of say, 950 prints, does he/she print them all at one time? Or are they printed upon (sales)demand, with care being given to carefully numbering the print: 1/950, 2/950?

Here's the associated dilemma: If I decided upon a LE run of 950 fine art inkjet prints and did them all at one time, I would spend a fortune on ink and paper, wiping out any profit from that first sale, with NO guarantee of ever recouping my investment in printing.

I think CyberDyne is correct. Issuing a "limited edition" of a print, lithograph, etc. is usually predicated upon the fact that purchase of the item is also an investment; i.e., as a marketing tool. An example can be seen in the lead paragraph on this page of art.com (http://www.art.com/asp/le/default-asp/_/default.htm)........./Dan

[New Hobby]

The other question I have concerns actual production runs. In lithography and other forms of printing it's more economical to print several hundred or thousand of an item since you have to prepare the plates, ink the press, cleanup, etc. It's different though when printing a silver gelatin B/W print in the darkroom, or on an Epson 9800.

So, once a photographer has decided upon a LE production run of say, 950 prints, does he/she print them all at one time? Or are they printed upon (sales)demand, with care being given to carefully numbering the print: 1/950, 2/950?

Here's the associated dilemma: If I decided upon a LE run of 950 fine art inkjet prints and did them all at one time, I would spend a fortune on ink and paper, wiping out any profit from that first sale, with NO guarantee of ever recouping my investment in printing.

I'm not seeing a need to run them all at once. Numbering them yes but print on demand sounds about right.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Hello Jake - shalom :D. Thank you for your comments, I appreciate it. My name is fairly well established in the area as a wedding and bar mitzvah photographer, but not at all as a producer of fine art prints. At this point there's little recognition on that score.

The gallery has been fairly "talkative" and we've established some comfortable communication. It would be quite easy to directly ask them what their concept of a limited run is. The print in question will only fetch a couple of hundred dollars before they archivally mat and frame it, so we're not my first fortune :lol:. I'm just pleased that my gallery popped up on her Google radar.

Regarding a print run of 100, I'd be delighted if I sold that many at the specified size so it's likely not a problem.


IMHO, if you are established in any way at all , then I'd agree that it makes sense to go for a limited run.

Are you selling prints? or Framed and matted?
I assume you will be displaying framed and matted?

For the gallery exhibit itself you'd definitely want framed matted, and then of course numbered and signed.
The question here becomes where (I know a detail but it is still something I am not 100% sure of)
The border of the print itself should get number and signature, but once framed and matted this is no longer visible, ..
If you sell framed and matted then you can replicate the # and sig on the matt itself .. but what if you are selling only the prints?

Details, but something to figure out as part of the whole process.

I concur that you don't need to make 100 prints. You only need to print to meet the demand,. and keep some method for tracking the limited run, ..
if your doing the framing then this leaves you more flexibility as know one expects to walk out of the gallery with matted framed artwork that day. They place the order and you fill it.

[sapearl]

Hi Sam - here's the information on the BuckeyeColor Labs site:

"Paper
We are using the industry leading paper, Hanmuehle Photo Rag 308. This is a bright white, 100% cotton rag, acid-free paper specially formulated for optimum photographic output.

Pigment
The Piezotone pigment inks are specifically formulated for premium Black & White output. This pigment provides a 12-shade tonal range to reproduce a high quality Black & White print."

Their site does not indicate what type of printer is being used - likely one of the large format Epson or Canon machines. I won't be doing any of the matting/framing.


Congratulations!!!

Would you mind sharing what type of paper/processing/framing you'll be going with?

[S.Horton]

^^ Thank you very much.

Happy New Year!

[sapearl]

You bring up some excellent points to consider. I would be selling the "naked" print to the gallery, and then they resell it to the client that employed them for the search process. The gallery will be doing all the framing and matting. I did invest in one of better large Logan mat cutters last year and do a fair job myself, but the gallery sells it's archival services and offers a choice of frames. That's fine by me - I couldn't match the service at this point.

But I can have the lab make what is referred to as a Salon print, which leaves a border that can be used for signature/numbering. You are correct that the mat will eventually cover it. The gallery rep indicated they would have me sign the mat prior to final assembly.

.......Are you selling prints? or Framed and matted?
I assume you will be displaying framed and matted?

For the gallery exhibit itself you'd definitely want framed matted, and then of course numbered and signed.
The question here becomes where (I know a detail but it is still something I am not 100% sure of)
The border of the print itself should get number and signature, but once framed and matted this is no longer visible, ..
If you sell framed and matted then you can replicate the # and sig on the matt itself .. but what if you are selling only the prints?.......

[CannedHeat]

Thank you for that link Dan. The art.com site makes for an interesting read and view. One thing I noticed about the photography section was that most of the LE print runs were 950 (conspicuously under 1000) with some being lower at 125. I wonder if this was arbitrary to boost perceived value of a particular item, or if somebody was using following some sort of art sales formula.

To be honest, I was rather shocked at the (print) number on the LE runs. I have been to many website galleries where a LE might be 20 or 30. I personally do not see 950 as being a limited run at all. It would take a lot of time and a real kick-fanny image to sell 950 copies of anything, labeled LE or not.

I agree with others: there's no doubt to print copies as sold. Print runs are inherently different because of the cost of setting up the presses, mixing the inks, etc.

If it's not too personal, please check in when you have negotiated a price. I think it would be helpful to all. Pricing in general is probably one of the most discussed/asked subjects in this business forum. I personally have no concept whatsoever time or print amounts should be set at. /Dan

[MDJAK]

First, congratulations. I'm very happy for you, as I'm sure you are quite pleased. Deservedly so.

I would definitely go with the limited edition; it alone lends an imprimateur to your name and work. I'd also imagine the smaller the run, the better, the more valuable, and the more enticing to a buyer. I'd say no more than perhaps 25. As you stated, you're not making a killing on this. You're looking toward the future and many more limited editions down the pike.

Best of luck.
mark

[TByrne]

Okay... understand that I'm an economist. That said, this is a question of supply and demand. With an important proviso...

Proviso... Who owns the reproduction rights to a print that they have purchased? Example: You have bought an original, signed, Rubens etching. A publisher offers to give you say $100 to reproduce it in his magazine. May you take the money? May you sign a release? In the music world this is all clear. You may not sell copies of your CDs.

Now, you sell a limited edition print to someone. They are then asked by say a calendar maker to use it. May they accept money? May they sign a release? What have you sold to that buyer? By that I mean, what rights?

In the art world the tradition is that a buyer buys property rights. They are completely uninterested in buying a limited edition or any edition print that comes with some sort of copyright strings. They want and expect full rights of appreciation.

So if you sell a limited edition of ten, you are selling what? The ability of each of those ten owners to reproduce the work? If they sell or donate their print to a museum, can they accept any money? A tax write off?

And if they can resell, write-off, and reproduce, well then what is the limited edition thing all about?

----

So much for the proviso... now onto the rest of the question...

I assume that very few people will ever be willing to pay for one of my prints. If they do, I sell the print to them, with no guarantees that I will not produce more. The most copies of one print I have ever sold are three, two for $130, a third for $355. The first two were approximately 13" X 19" the second was twice that size. I may eventually reproduce that print as part of series of fine art cards. When I do, the value of the print will go up. I will increase its price because it will be more popular and only I can reproduce it adequately in larger sizes.At the point of raising the price on that print, the three present owners will enjoy an increase in the value of their prints, right? They will have enjoyed a capital gain at the point of resale, because I have increased the value of the image. So you see, they have an interest in my finding ways to make their prints more popular, hence more valuable.

The most expensive print I've sold was priced at $1,300. It was approximately 6' X 4', printed on canvas and mounted on a wooden frame. There is no line forming by others interested in buying another like it. Thus it does not matter that there is no number on the print run.

If a gallery owner really thinks that he/she can peddle multiple copies of your work, hey... fine... price them accordingly (remembering you will bear all of the costs and net at most 50% of retail) and put a limit on the things... keeping at least one for yourself (on the outside possibility that they really will grow in value...). Hence your return will not be in selling additional prints in the future printed beyond the guaranteed run, but in the capital gain on the print(s) you retained in inventory.

There is a conceit among us that we will sell a bundle of art prints. Frankly it is reproductions onto cards, calendars, and other gee-gaws that they will become valuable. Are there any photographers who actually make a good ... good... good... living out of art photography?

Lemme rephrase that... are there any art photographers who can quit the day job for good from their art photo receipts? I look at the price tags attached to the photos at the major galleries and snicker. The chances of consistently selling art photos to collectors at those prices are less than hitting the Power Ball.

There are livings to be made in photography, but not art photography. It's the graphic equivalent of poetry. Sigh....

[CannedHeat]

There are livings to be made in photography, but not art photography. It's the graphic equivalent of poetry. Sigh....

Hence the phrase "starving artist"?
Hence the phrase starving artist!!

[CyberDyneSystems]

Maybe, just maybe the poets, and the photographer, aren't doing it for the money?
It'd be a shame if all the poets stopped on those grounds.

Anyway, Stuart will be able to handle your reply a lot better than me, he shoots weddings and therefore is used to this kind of post ...

[sapearl]

First, I'm going to have to catch my breath - what an interesting post Ted, I always look forward to hearing what you have to say. It's never trite, flippant or shallow and offers insights that I often miss. Thank you. I'm sure I'll have more to say later, but first I have to digest your treatise.:D

Maybe, just maybe the poets, and the photographer, aren't doing it for the money?
It'd be a shame if all the poets stopped on those grounds.

Anyway, Stuart will be able to handle your reply a lot better than me, he shoots weddings and therefore is used to this kind of post ...

[TByrne]

....please check in when you have negotiated a price. I think it would be helpful to all. Pricing in general is probably one of the most discussed/asked subjects in this business forum. I personally have no concept whatsoever time or print amounts should be set at. /Dan

Pricing is the easiest thing in the world to compute. Donate pieces of your work to charity auctions and see what they bring. Case closed. Oh, and BTW, the purchase price becomes the value of your contribution re. the IRS...

Another thought...

People buy art photos for two reasons:

1. They want to live with them,
2. They sense a brand name exists or will develop

Okay... number three is both of the above...

There is a movement just now for washed-up rock-n-roll singers to bring out photo books. People are astonished that they could aim a point and shoot at all given the chemistry running between their cameras and their synapses. Every technical misstep is considered an artsy riff. Bushwa! But they sell prints because of who they were, or because of who their subjects were, not because of the inherent artistry in the prints.

Their names are fully capitalized, but will no longer sell CDs or concert tickets. So they are extending their brands to photography because it has become so easy. Plus publishers are selling a freak-with-a-camera, and buyers nostalgic for their youths when their hormones danced to the aged musician's music, buy the things... for the same reason they don't throw out the old touring jackets, tee-shirts, and autographed bongs.

This is a fad that will pass. But for us it is a lesson which reminds that buyers part from money as much for reason #2 above as #1. And if you want to have #2 buyers, then you have to market your name. If you are a washed up DJ in your town, or perhaps a has-been but beloved politico... well you have a name that may translate. Until all who remember you die. But then, you will be dead as well, so.. hey... ride that brand, babe.... ride! :cool:

[sapearl]

Ted - why do I seem to hear the voice of Daniel Schorr when I read your commentaries? A very interesting viewpoint you posit.

[New Hobby]

This has become a very interesting thread...

[sapearl]

Ditto on that - folks are putting some serious thought into their posts which is helping me to formulate a direction. At present I'm leaning towards a LE strategy, with an approximate run of around 25 prints, done on demand, and not in batch.

Interestingly enough, a fellow area photographer whom I've known since the late '70's and specializes in B/W silver gelatin and platinum printing stated his view on this. He said that in 30+ years of photography, only two of his photographs have sold more than 15 copies each. He has a lot of name recognition locally and semi-nationally, and works through galleries sometimes and displays at various shows. He does NOT have any online galleries typical of many POTN folks.

This has become a very interesting thread...

[CannedHeat]

...with an approximate run of around 25 prints, done on demand, and not in batch.

He said that in 30+ years of photography, only two of his photographs have sold more than 15 copies each. He has a lot of name recognition locally and semi-nationally, and works through galleries sometimes and displays at various shows.

There you go. That's what I mentioned above. I think that any gallery that is advising a client to issue LE's of 950 is poorly advising. Inherent in any collector's item, be it stamps, coins, or pez dispensers, is the fact that lack of quantity/availability = value. A 2007 penny ain't worth much, there are 17 quadrillion of them available. But that first, registered, numbered six-pack of Billy Beer that came of the assembly line, there is only one of them and, as such, the value is greater.

Those who would purchase art not only for personal enjoyment but for investment potential are well aware of the fact that the lower number of copies in circulation, the higher the potential of increasing value. In fact, there may be a psychological aspect of marketing a lower number run. An investor may be more likely to purchase a piece knowing the quantity is highly-limited, and at that pay a higher initial price for it.

I have seen many places those selling LEs hand-number and hand-sign each print. This aspect may be debatable. There may be a perceived increased value in doing so, but there is the aspect of the art itself not being as enjoyable if those things are obtrusive. /Dan

[LeesaB]

Hey Stu...

How great is that! I knew when you started doing the coverge of Cleveand it would work out well for you. Your images are awesome and you've put alot of work into it and kept those guards busy in the Flats ;)

Let me know how it turns out....
and Congrats!!!

[sapearl]

Hey there Lisa - thank you :D. Call it a labor of love - it's fun wandering the bridges and warehouse district looking for a new angle on the city. Although the past couple of days it's been pretty chilly walking through some of the snowdrifts with the camera slung on a shoulder. It only gets bad when I have to take off the bulky gloves to work the controls :lol:.

Hey Stu...

How great is that! I knew when you started doing the coverge of Cleveand it would work out well for you. Your images are awesome and you've put alot of work into it and kept those guards busy in the Flats ;)

Let me know how it turns out....
and Congrats!!!

[LeesaB]

Stu,

We just did an Eshoot and this couple wanted to walk around the city a bit, IT WAS FREEZING, but she was a trooper in her heels and I figure if she could do it, so could I! WE found an alley, and I was THRILLED! I know I'll be taking people back there again, and would like to do a few trash the dress sessions also there.

I LOVE your work! I think you've found that niche!

I have a bridal show this weekend coming...busy week for me, I'll be glad to have it behnd me, but then the work really starts.

Take care!

[sapearl]

I like your thinking here Ted and can easily agree with a lot of it. As a matter of fact this gives me incentive to make a donation to our annual PBS Televised Auction which occurs every April. As a matter of fact I did some gratis photography for them last year since I'm a station volunteer.

Most of the folks I know seem to buy art because they want to live with the image. It either reminds them of something, makes them feel good... those with some disposable cash (know less of those) will buy it for investment purposes.

Pricing is the easiest thing in the world to compute. Donate pieces of your work to charity auctions and see what they bring. Case closed. Oh, and BTW, the purchase price becomes the value of your contribution re. the IRS...

Another thought...

People buy art photos for two reasons:

1. They want to live with them,
2. They sense a brand name exists or will develop.....

[sapearl]

I see where you're coming from Ted ;). Maybe once upon a time some years ago I felt like this but reality quickly set in. Even with my wedding and event work over the years, which has been modest at best, there was no wild impulse to quite my day job. The regular paycheck, healthcare, 401K and steady work was just too sensible :lol:. But it enables me to "afford" to continue my photographic pursuits in the off hours.

It appears that the transaction with the gallery will complete as agreed upon, and I promise more details once that occurs. I sent the file to the lab and they will be printing it shortly.

I did agree upon a LE print run of 10 at the size that is being purchased. Realistically I feel that the odds of me selling more than a couple of units at this size are pretty slim. So why not set the LE number low, encourage the "illusion of scarcity" and enhance the perceived value to the public. But even with this perception, I'm not getting rich. With a modest frame, matting services and museum/UV glass, the buyer will be paying somewhere between $500 - 1000 retail when all is said and done. When you subtract by (lab) production costs, the services that I am not providing, and the gallery mark-up, my actual cleared profit will be around 1/4 of the gross.

I now understand why some purchase those large freestanding Epson and Canon Inkjet printers. Fine are printing at large dimension does not come cheaply :rolleyes:. Still, you need a pretty good volume though to justify such a hardware purchase.

.....There is a conceit among us that we will sell a bundle of art prints. Frankly it is reproductions onto cards, calendars, and other gee-gaws that they will become valuable. Are there any photographers who actually make a good ... good... good... living out of art photography?

Lemme rephrase that... are there any art photographers who can quit the day job for good from their art photo receipts? I look at the price tags attached to the photos at the major galleries and snicker. The chances of consistently selling art photos to collectors at those prices are less than hitting the Power Ball. .........

[TByrne]

I have a wedding photographer friend who cannot justify backing his car out of his driveway for a guarantee of less than $2,500. Run the metrics. Say he maxes out at four weddings a month. $2,500 X 4 X12. That's a gross of $120K.
Depreciate $30,000 worth of equip at straight line over three years... that's $10,000 a year.

Leaving $110,000

Pull out overhead (rent, light, heat/AC, insurance, vehicle, marketing, accounting, legal, Etc) ... that's say $25,000.

Leaving $85,000

Assistant/receptionist/bookeeper/gopher .... Part time $35,000

Leaving $50,000

Pull out variable costs: custom printing, ink, paper, frames, books, Etc. ... $12,000

Leaving $38,000

That $38,000 combines photographer's salary PLUS profits. But, it is largely taxable. So, subtract about 25%..

Leaving take home of ... $28,500

Assuming that the photographer is fully employed with no overtime over that year's period.... the photographer makes... before taxes about $600 a week.

A manager for a metropolitan McDonald's Hamburger store makes about $840 a week.

It is hard to make a living in photography, much less in art photography. Let us say your goal in art photography is to gross as much as the McD's manager. Let us further say that you can net on a print $100 (note Stuart's points above when computing net... that is usually about 30-40% of retail price). $840/100 = about 8.5 prints per week. Sounds small. Yet you will need a market that will absorb a minimum of about 450 of your prints per year. And note, I have assumed that all of the costs of taking and printing your images are zero... including no rent/heat/light, insurance, marketing, etc.! That's why I called it gross.

Are you aware of outlets that will absorb that volume? Will they need volume discounts? If so.. that means you must sell proportionately more prints. Which means a proportionately greater absorptive capacity. Is there sufficient wall space in your market of seriously well-heeled collectors to absorb that sort of volume? Perhaps there will be a tourist market? If so, then you will not be selling a named product or brand, but exclusively the excitement of your images. Price will be very important to much of this export market. Price competition can very quickly drive down the margin that the photographer receives. Incidentally, will the retail sellers expect contingency inventories? If that's the case, then you the photographer will have to finance all inventories until sold. That means you either borrow the money to do that from yourself or an external source. either way there is an implied cost... the interest cost of borrowing money.

Some say... "Hey... I don't have to pay myself interest." Well, the fact is if you take $1,000 from some income earning financial security/bank account/whatever... you will be forgoing that income when you invest it in your business. That is a real cost.

So you see why my friend will not drive out of his driveway for less than $2,500. Fortunately he lives in a relatively low cost area (Lancaster, PA). Imagine how his costs skyrocket if he lives in Dallas, London, Tokyo, Los Angeles, or New York... Heck, his costs will probably increase by as much as fifty percent if he moves to a closer Philadelphia suburb. The problem is that Lancaster lacks the absorptive capacity for his work (customers) that Philly provides.

I know this is long... but the point ultimately is... do art photography because you love what you do. Finance your hobby/craft/passion yourself. Do it up to your ability to finance it. If you sell something, consider it windfall gain. Take someone to dinner.

Ted

[CannedHeat]

... do art photography because you love what you do. Finance your hobby/craft/passion yourself. Do it up to your ability to finance it. If you sell something, consider it windfall gain. Take someone to dinner.

Ted

Good gawd, Ted, you're depressing me, my friend! :( I am in the process of dumping my last two customers of a web design business because I wanted to make a living at something I enjoy.

Now I'm just sitting here, weeping, wondering if I can get all the customers back! /Dan

[TByrne]

Good gawd, Ted, you're depressing me, my friend! :( I am in the process of dumping my last two customers of a web design business because I wanted to make a living at something I enjoy.

Now I'm just sitting here, weeping, wondering if I can get all the customers back! /Dan

OKAY, OKAY... you are not alone in your reacion, I am getting email on my little reality lecture, so, as a former business school professor, and present editor of a number of business magazines - let me expand a tad.

It is the nature of a business plan to reflect reality then to seize and improve upon it.

There are three ways to get out of the trap I outlined above:

1. Find ways to increase revenues (market management),
2. Find ways to decrease costs (product management),
3. Both

Lettuce start with #2. It is a fact that no one ever cost-cut their way to prosperity, but many have found that the route to avoiding bankruptcy. There are a number of ways to cut the costs I've outlined above. The simplest is group practice. Two, three, or more photographers working as partners (think dental or legal practice) can spread the overhead out among them, along with assistant costs, even tax exposure. They can also back one another up so that vacations, illness, family emergency, or other disabilities needn't cut into gross revenue. Moreover bulk purchases of equipment, supplies and the like can generate further discounts. Plus with multiple professionals showing the flag, word-of-mouth and networking marketing expand proportionately. Even vehicles can be shared within a practice along with a lot of support equipment. Hence while the most basic equipment (cameras, flash cards, basic flash, basic lenses, etc.) need to be duplicated the costs of that duplication might be completely offset by the proportional use of studio space, lights, computers,work-stations, printers, and the like. The PER PHOTOGRAPHER costs can be slashed so dramatically that the final bottom line can grow by 30 to 50%.

#1 seems harder but it's not. A decent marketing budget well applied now gathers business for the partnership (or professional corporation) and each photographer's work makes more rain. Rain makers are of course key here and two or three are a lot better than one. Add-ons and added value items can be devloped as different professionals investigate their availability and teach the partners. Specialization can occur allowing a good portrait gal to compliment a great wedding guy, and a third shooter who's say a product/catalogue person could add an additional revenue stream especially when each is sufficiently generic that everyone can do some of the other's business so that everything gets covered. Business will rarely be turned away as a result of scheduling conflicts. If it is... add another partner... or part time associate.

#3 Is the perfect solution, especially if it allows for the regular hiring of young non-partners who are brought along toward partnership as a result of their early apprenticing/assistanting and later full service work.... INCLUDING RAIN MAKING!!

One wonders how many small photography shops should merge. No - one wonders why they don't before their owners discover the money to be made as a McDonald's manager.

I can go on with this in detail, but... remember. Professional photography is a business. There are generic principles of business management (thank heavens since teaching and writing about along with practicing them in my own businesses have allowed me to do my art photography with some reeeeeely cool gear).

All of those principles begin with a business plan. It's a good idea to buy a book on constructing one of those. I know it's neither sexy nor glamorous - but a cost I did not reveal in my hard-nosed analysis above was the cost of the many hours that will be consumed in record keeping, bookkeeping, marketing, networking, interviewing, and selling among other management responsibilities (example... how many hours will you need to nail down the least cost/best benefit liability insurance coverage?). A group can either share those hours or cut costs elsewhere sufficiently to afford an office manager to do that sort of work.

Yipes.. I'm sorry this has gone on so long... and apparently digressed from the main theme.

Ted :o

[CannedHeat]

Thank, Ted. Actually there's a fourth alternative: forget about this rat race called life and hole up in a shack in Montana with no electricity or plumbing. ;)

Jokes aside, thanks for your help and guidance. Yes, you are correct - going it alone is burdensome. Small, menial tasks end up fragmenting days into unusability. /Dan

[TByrne]

Small, menial tasks end up fragmenting days into unusability. /Dan

It is a fact of small-business life Dan that the owner will spend the most time doing what he does least well. Say you do portraits easily and love them. But you know little of double entry bookkeeping and hate it. Which will consume the most of your time, the stuff you do quickly and comfortably, or the stuff you do slowly and tediously?

See my point? :rolleyes:

[sapearl]

Spot on there - I HATE booking, even though all I do is manually enter everything in a ledger book, input it to excel a few times a year..... but then GLADLY pay my tax guy to figure everything out for me and keep me out of jail :lol:.

Early on I WAS wasting too much time in the manner that Ted describes. That's why it's always important to hire a pro who knows what he's doing about the stuff that 1. you don't know how to do efficiently, and 2. don't really care to do in the first place.;)

It is a fact of small-business life Dan that the owner will spend the most time doing what he does least well. Say you do portraits easily and love them. But you know little of double entry bookkeeping and hate it. Which will consume the most of your time, the stuff you do quickly and comfortably, or the stuff you do slowly and tediously?

See my point? :rolleyes:

[sapearl]

Well folks, a couple of days ago UPS brought a very well packaged 12LB. box to the house containing my finished fine art print. This afternoon I dropped it off at the gallery. Below is the "proud photographer" with his creation, courtesy of my wife's snapshot. I was pretty happy with the lab's results. This final enlargement came out just slightly lighter than the image on my more or less calibrated monitor. My wife did not notice it, but due to some slight burning and exposure layer adjustments I was able to tell the small difference.

The overall size of the paper is 24x30 but the actual print area is only 19x25.

Once I got it to the gallery they had me sign the print in pencil in the lower left corner, and then indicate that it was 1/10 in the right corner. I placed a title at bottom center. Next they will mat and then frame it with something selected by the interior designer. The gallery staff was extremely pleased with the final product.

==>

[TByrne]

Absolutely EVERYTHING about this photo ROCKS Stuart. And while I appreciate the image you are holding within the image... I am talking about the team picture above. I love this terrific unveiling of reality that's juxtaposed you, your obvious pride and joy, and the way you're feelings are made so accessible, the way the image marries artist and art, the composition that is more authentic than a medium sized order of McDonald's fries, the cropping, and everything here that pulls me through the picture plane so that I smile, and mutter.... "congratulations, Stuart. Way to go...."

Maybe its also the depth of the back story that this thread's created so that this image is like a neon exclamation point? Here's an image that makes me want to slap you on the back and boast, "Hey ever'body.. lookit what our buddy Stuart did!" Instead of a boast on your part, it makes us want to brag about you... the image... the story.

Congrats... Are you considering having this piece of art reproduced in similar dimensions to the one you're holding... for your own space? I would.

Ted

[New Hobby]

Great job and congratulations! Please keep us updated on your progress.

[P51Mstg]

Stewart:

That picture is awesome and one of the best I have seen on this site yet..... However I can imagine you get to meet some of the more interesting people in Cleveland while you are looking for those locations to shoot from.

I think the most important part of this thread was your sharing another's experience that he never sold more than 15 prints (except twice).........

Ted actually lays out the profitabilty of the photo business. (man do you pay your gofers too much). That single post should be a sticky in adivce for budding photographers..........

Have a nice day all and take pictures........

Mark H

[sapearl]

Hi Ted - I'm glad you like the photo. It is one of my favorites but you never know how other will react to your work ;). My wife even enjoyed taking the innaugural shot before I reboxed it for the gallery. I appreciate that all of you have given me some very constructive advice in what I hope will be more than just a "one trick pony."

I actually hadn't thought about making a large one for myself. I'll have to run that my interior designer. She has this thing about hanging lots of things on the wall..."more things to dust." We'll see how it works out.:D

Absolutely EVERYTHING about this photo ROCKS Stuart. And while I appreciate the image you are holding within the image... I am talking about the team picture above. ......Congrats... Are you considering having this piece of art reproduced in similar dimensions to the one you're holding... for your own space? I would.

Ted

[richardyoung]

Neat thread.. let me get my thought together..

Yea.. I'm thinking around 1/100 prints is perfect for me.. I can't see me really selling more than that.. and 1/10 is too little..

Printing I think is going to kill me.. i have been looking around at different prints.. and damn it cost a lot of get big stuff printed..

this is a great thread...

[sapearl]

Richard - I know what you mean by printing costs. You get what you pay for regarding quality. There are places out there that will make "poster sized prints" for around $19.95 or so.... kind of the Earl Schibe of printers - yes, I'm dating myself :lol:.

The place I used for the above print did an absolutely beautiful job on it. The tonal values were superb and the media was an archival heavy weight bright white fine art paper. My actual cost was in the neighborhood of $100. Their price to the client was considerably more than that, but my profit from the gallery was modest due to the mark up. And again, the gallery will take care of the framing.

Ad pointed out in your other thread, tourists generally will not pay top dollar for a fine art print. When in places like Vegas or Disney, they are looking for something under $20 they can roll up in a tube and take back on the plane. You might want to rethink your run of 100. Do 15-20 and see how the sales go.

[PhotosGuy]

they are looking for something under $20 they can roll up in a tube and take back on the plane. You might want to rethink your run of 100. I suggest that you only print one for display & offer "free" shipping so they don't have to carry it around with them. Then you can print on demand & ship. At the point of sale, you can inform them what # they will get.

[sapearl]

Now why didn't I think of that :rolleyes: ? You're way ahead of me.... or I haven't had enough coffee yet. Excellent suggestion.

I suggest that you only print one for display & offer "free" shipping so they don't have to carry it around with them. Then you can print on demand & ship. At the point of sale, you can inform them what # they will get.