Why do Alien Bees give off a Pink Tint?

[RichNY]

I've been watching people on POTN and other forums posting images with Alien Bees that have one thing in common- Pink Tints. I'm really surprised that people aren't complaining about this as loud as the Mark III focusing issue.

On this forum I've seen Tmrdesign, Curtis, and PacAce recently posting their pink tints. Does anyone have an explanation?

[bieber]

Examples? I've never noticed any such problem...

[yendikeno]

Is your monitor calibrated?

[Curtis N]

yes, link to some examples, please.

Short of having any specific image to comment on, I would only assert that in the digital age, the color accuracy of an image has a lot to do with the photographer's ability to adjust his white balance to the light source, and little to do with the light source itself.

Looking at the RGB values in the Alienbees shots from this post (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=4605028&postcount=1), the red channel is a touch higher than the green and blue channels in many places. It was shot on AWB and no color correction was done, since color accuracy was unimportant considering the reason I took the shots.

[Titus213]

Would you prefer orange? Blue? All equally easy to arrange.

[AdamLewis]

I dont mean to call anyone out, but Ive thought the same thing. The first person that comes to mind is one person on the board. His images always look a little pink to me

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=430751
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=423699

[cskn0125]

I dont mean to call anyone out, but Ive thought the same thing. The first person that comes to mind is one person on the board. His images always look a little pink to me

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=430751
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=423699


Sorry, but I don't see those as sufficient examples considering that is not a controlled environment (not a studio) As you can see, there is orange everywhere and plenty of other things for the light to bounce off of and reflect on the subjects.

I've never had this problem - Do you have any examples Rich?

[SkipD]

I've been sitting back watching people on POTN and other forums posting images with Alien Bees that have one thing in common- Pink Tints. I'm really surprised that people aren't complaining about this as loud as the Mark III focusing issue.

On this forum I've seen Tmrdesign, Curtis, and PacAce recently posting their pink tints. Does anyone have an explanation?Is your monitor calibrated using a colorimeter? If not, then you may be seeing everything incorrectly.

[RichNY]

yes, link to some examples, please.

Short of having any specific image to comment on, I would only assert that in the digital age, the color accuracy of an image has a lot to do with the photographer's ability to adjust his white balance to the light source, and little to do with the light source itself.

Looking at the RGB values in the Alienbees shots from this post (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=4605028&postcount=1), the red channel is a touch higher than the green and blue channels in many places. It was shot on AWB and no color correction was done, since color accuracy was unimportant considering the reason I took the shots.

Curtis- This is the post that I was referring to when commenting on both your AB images and Leo's having a pink tint to them. Robert (tmrdesign) has also posted some and I'm sure he can post his here as well. I think they were back when he was dealing with calibrating his meter.

What I find interesting is that the 580 flash didn't show show a pink cast- I would have expected both lights to be similar. To eliminate AWB being the issue can you shoot your card again with the AB and a custom white balance set? I believe you will see similar results.

[PacAce]

I've been sitting back watching people on POTN and other forums posting images with Alien Bees that have one thing in common- Pink Tints. I'm really surprised that people aren't complaining about this as loud as the Mark III focusing issue.

On this forum I've seen Tmrdesign, Curtis, and PacAce recently posting their pink tints. Does anyone have an explanation?
I don't know about the others but in my case, when I'm just shooting for the sake of having sample images using the AB, I don't PP those images other than resize and maybe sharpen after resizing. And the camera is usually set to AWB which I won't bother changing. So that may explain it. When I use the flash shot into an umbrella fired via a PW, I notice the same type of a thing except that the image is bluer. When I set the WB to flash, then the image color comes out a little truer. I'll see if that's the case with the AB when I get home tonight. If so, I'll make it a point to always use the Flash WB whenever I shoot with the ABs. I guess I just got spoiled by the fact that the 580EX when mounted on the camera automatically sets the WB for me. :|

[RichNY]

Thanks Leo. This should be easy to see- either shooting a grey card with a CWB set or (AWB) has a pinkish tint or it doesn't.

[Curtis N]

Rich,

I may have a plausible explanation, at least in my case.

Referring again to this post (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=4605028&postcount=1), I agree that examining the RGB values shows a bit more red in the AB shots than in the Speedlite shots.

The white seamless target was hastily setup above a large dining room table with a bright red tablecloth. The flash was near the opposite end of the table.

The AlienBee with its standard reflector threw a wide beam of light, and some of it bounced off the tablecloth. On the other hand, the Speedlite was zoomed enough to keep most of its light from hitting the tablecloth so the amount of bounced light was insignificant.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it. ;)

[JMHPhotography]

I don't know if there really is such a thing as a completely 100% nuetral 5600K strobe. My strobes (JTL's) lean toward 5350K with umbrellas and 5850K with a softbox. Bare, they are closer to 5500K, but never on 0 for the green/magenta slider. So I always shoot with a Whibal card or with my Expodisc in the studio to create a custom WB.

[kuanyu]

I have never noticed this, we need a controled studio to test it. Although I own a few Alien Bees the only place I get to shoot has dark red walls. Any Alien Bees owner have access to a white or black studio to test and post the results?

[PacAce]

Curtis- This is the post that I was referring to when commenting on both your AB images and Leo's having a pink tint to them. Robert (tmrdesign) has also posted some and I'm sure he can post his here as well. I think they were back when he was dealing with calibrating his meter.

What I find interesting is that the 580 flash didn't show show a pink cast- I would have expected both lights to be similar. To eliminate AWB being the issue can you shoot your card again with the AB and a custom white balance set? I believe you will see similar results.
Rich, in that same thread, for the pictures I posted, I should note that the wall was not white or anything close to it. The actually color of that wall is a yellowish beige even though the picture shot with the 580EX shows it as being whitish. So you really can't go by my pictures to determine the color cast of the strobes. The WB was off for both the flash and the strobe but more so for the flash.

[jcpoulin]

Adam, the first link, these pictures, judging by the color in the uniforms, have had significant saturation increases in processing, thus exagerating the skin tone. The second is far less pink and were saturated less ( by my monitor appearence).

[RichNY]

Curtis/Leo- The issue of a pinkish tint didn't apply strictly to both of your shots. Let's toss out both of these shots and have you shoot them again with a custom white balance and snooting the reflector or blocking any reflection from the red tablecloth to see whether there is still a pint tint or whether it completely goes away.

[Curtis N]

Rich,

When I get my Whibal card I may do some testing to satisfy my own curiosity, but honestly I'm not gonna fret over this, and here's why: First, Alienbees have enough market share that if there really was a color issue with them, we would have heard about it before now.

Secondly, there are so many things that can affect the color of light beyond the light source itself. Umbrellas and softboxes, reflectors and screens, the surroundings, the power level of the light, the age of the flash tube, etc.

There are people who say you shouldn't mix brands (strobes and speedlites, Alienbees and Elinchroms, whatever), but my contention is that all those other factors will affect things even more, so there's little point in worrying about what you can't control.

Instead, I'll concentrate on what I can control. I'll use gels as needed to match flash with ambient and use a Whibal card as a reference. Then a few clicks with my RAW converter get things squared away.

[Wilt]

Curtis- This is the post that I was referring to when commenting on both your AB images and Leo's having a pink tint to them. Robert (tmrdesign) has also posted some and I'm sure he can post his here as well. I think they were back when he was dealing with calibrating his meter.

What I find interesting is that the 580 flash didn't show show a pink cast- I would have expected both lights to be similar. To eliminate AWB being the issue can you shoot your card again with the AB and a custom white balance set? I believe you will see similar results.

I just looked at the same post, and the AB images are definitely a bit magenta on my monitor (about 10CC filter units, for those who know what CC filters look like in the days of color printing in the darkroom!), whereas the Canon speedlight images are neutral gray. I think that's what his OP is about!

It would be worthwhile to repeat the same tests, this time without the red table cloth to reflect and contaminate things, to see if there is any credence to the observation about AB redness. I don't buy the zoom head of the speedlight is well controlled so tightly enough to eliminate the red contamination compared to the AB coverage angle.

[Atomic79]

(about 10CC filter units, for those who know what CC filters look like in the days of color printing in the darkroom!)


:lol:

[Sauk]

Sorry, but I don't see those as sufficient examples considering that is not a controlled environment (not a studio) As you can see, there is orange everywhere and plenty of other things for the light to bounce off of and reflect on the subjects.

I've never had this problem - Do you have any examples Rich?

Yeah I would not use my examples lol The one where they look orange is because there was a LOT of orange around and it really affected my shots more then I thought it would.

The 2nd shots I don't see the red tint, but I might have got them a touch warmer then I should have. I like having warmer skin tone rather then the really white skin tone us utahns have in the winter

[Wilt]

:lol:

Digital was unaffordable only 10 years ago. I would think that not everyone on POTN is under the age of 25! ;)

[PacAce]

Digital was unaffordable only 10 years ago. I would think that not everyone on POTN is under the age of 25! ;)
What's a CC filter. Sorry, but all my color prints were done by K-mart 10 years ago. :mrgreen:

[Curtis N]

This forum has Alienbees shots all over the place.
I only recently acquired my Alienbees, but here are a few galleries:
http://performancephoto.smugmug.com/gallery/3855408/1/223181748
http://performancephoto.smugmug.com/gallery/3926385/1/227933938

[Titus213]

I've never paid much attention to the original color temp of the pictures out of the camera but adjust them in RAW. I will admit to seeing some redness to them off and on. As mentioned, the rest of the environment plays a big role in this I think.

Curtis - your images look good, especially the second gallery. The first is hampered, in this color discussion, by the pink border used....

[Curtis N]

Curtis - your images look good, especially the second gallery. The first is hampered, in this color discussion, by the pink border used....Fixed now.
Thanks.

[Wilt]

What's a CC filter. Sorry, but all my color prints were done by K-mart 10 years ago. :mrgreen:

You dare call yourself a 'real photographer' ?! 'Genuine photographers' have done color work in a darkroom and not relied on commercial labs for everything! ;)

CC = Color Compensating ... what photographers used to use over lenses, over light sources, or in the color darkroom to balance the color for film images, before digital cameras and reliance upon post processing.

[PacAce]

You dare call yourself a 'real photographer' ?! 'Genuine photographers' have done color work in a darkroom and not relied on commercial labs for everything! ;)

Hey, Wilt, nowhere did I ever claim that I was a real photographer. However, I did stay at the Holiday Inn Express once with all the lights out and spent the night reading my camera and flash user manuals (not by candle light but the light from my flash focus assist beam). :p

[jrsforums]

I don't know if there really is such a thing as a completely 100% nuetral 5600K strobe. My strobes (JTL's) lean toward 5350K with umbrellas and 5850K with a softbox. Bare, they are closer to 5500K, but never on 0 for the green/magenta slider. So I always shoot with a Whibal card or with my Expodisc in the studio to create a custom WB.

Thank you, forkball...

If everyone would follow your statement, "...So I always shoot with a Whibal card..." (or similar card) there would be no need for this discussion :)

[TMR Design]

Hi John,

That might very well be true but certainly there are people achieving accurate white balance using other means.

Right now no one is doing any testing and everything is speculation so I'll get the ball rolling. Since this is a very similar issue to one I recently posted where I was seeing pinks and higher than normal levels on the red channel I'm going to begin conducting some tests.

The fact that this is not being discussed is odd but I've personally seen a few instances of this from other people in very different environments with one consistency, and that is that they were all using Alien Bees.

I've eliminated many things that have been and would be suggested. I have walls that are painted very close to middle gray. I though that perhaps I was getting a color cast from the walls. Not so. Someone else I know did the same test and she has white walls, getting the same pink.

So for all that would like to post data and results this is what I propose for those that own Alien Bees strobes.

Whether you use a gray card, whibal, expodisc, etc., pick the one(s) you feel are reliable and give you accurate color when setting a custom white balance.

Shoot your gray frame as you would for a custom white balance. Shoot in RAW or JPG with all settings zero'ed. Do NOT process or change color space or anything that would change the in-camera histogram. Post the image. I don't think we need to see the levels because each time the issue shows itself it is visible to the eye and you don't have to look that hard for it. If you have multiple gray cards and get different results or 1 shows higher levels of red then lets see those images. If you find you have pink and you also own another brand of lights or something like a Speedlite then do a custom white balance for that strobe and see if you see any pink. Pot any and all images so we can see and compare.

Rather than speculate this might give us some indication if there is in fact a problem.

[Curtis N]

Robert,

Your post is a little confusing. If you do a custom white balance with a whibal card or other suitable reference, you're not going get a color cast. Custom white balance sets both color temperature and tint.

If you post JPEGs I would suggest the FLASH white balance setting, and compare it to another image using the same WB setting from a Speedlite or different brand of strobe. The thing is, we don't know how the camera's various WB settings might affect the tint.

Alternatively, you could shoot white seamless or whibal card and click on it with the white balance eyedropper of your RAW converter. The resulting tint setting might tell a tale. Again this would be most useful if it's compared to another kind of flash.

As I indicated early in this thread, an image with a color cast merely indicates that the white balance used does not properly match the light source. The only thing that interests me is whether or not one type of flash is appreciably different from another type, since people frequently mix brands.

[TMR Design]

Hi Curtis,

I understand all that. The pink tint I've seen is there AFTER setting a custom white balance and I've seen it from gray cards and the expodisc. I know it goes against logic but that is what prompted Rich to post originally. Again, I saw the same results from someone else in a different environment with Alien Bees, and after setting a custom white balance with the expodisc she generated images that had a pinkish tint.

[pparker]

Manually setting your camera's color temp. to your studio lights flash tube Kelvin rating makes (5500 K for my lights) more sense than doing a custom white balance using a Whibal card, Expodisc or anything else.

If you shoot in Raw, you can always tweek the Color Temp. to what appeals to you. Having the original images adjusted to the right color temp. for your Studio lights flash tubes, is a good place to start.

[marian]

Every shooting situtation is different. Every picture can be adjusted to the "umptd degree"

Throw flash totally out of this conversion and put on a white t shirt and stand next to a red wall. Look at your T shirt and then say, "Hmm, I wonder why my T-Shirt looks pinkish!"

[RichNY]

pparker- you should not HAVE to color correct for your flash's color in PP if your white balance is set properly.

marian- you can't throw flash totally out of the conversation- that is what this conversation is entirely about. The issue is whether ABs will show a pink tint shooting a white background affected by no other tinted reflection when the proper white balance is set.

[Wilt]

Every shooting situtation is different. Every picture can be adjusted to the "umptd degree"

Throw flash totally out of this conversion and put on a white t shirt and stand next to a red wall. Look at your T shirt and then say, "Hmm, I wonder why my T-Shirt looks pinkish!"

The problem comes when a photographer is asked by a client for a color-faithful portrayal of a product, whether it be an article of clothing or a textile, and my artificial lighting ends up with some color shift in spite of the source being color balanced with the capture color temp. (color shift and color temp are two different issues) If you designed bridal gowns, and I portray in a photograph a perfectly white gown as pinkish, you would not be happy as it misportrays the gown to your customers!

[form]

In that case I would post process in photoshop.

I haven't noticed any significant cast to the alienbees unit I have, though it is slightly lower temp than my hot shoe flashes, especially when at a low setting.

[pparker]

Rich, maybe you misunderstood me. I'm saying you sould set your camera's color temp. to your flash tube Kelvin rating. If you want to adjust the color temp in Raw after the fact, that's up to the individual personal taste.
Personally, for studio work, I keep my camera set for the studio lights (Novatron M-600's) flash tube kelvin rating of 5500 K and consequently do not need to make any other adjustments in color temp.
One of the biggest mistakes I see on this forum is new photographers with studio lights not setting their camera to their studio lights color temp.
For those people that mix lights with different Kelvin ratings, you're making life harder than it needs to be.

[marian]

I used the term, "throw flash out of the picture" as a point.

Your subject (flash/no flash) can pick up a color cast IF something dominate is near it that can cause the color cast. The original thread "AB/pinkish" is misleading. The White Lighting company would have been out of business in the early 80's if they couldn't get their flash units to work properly.

Everyone has a different studio/shooting area to work in. Different color walls, different setups, different equipment, different cameras, different monitors, differetn settings in whatever equipment you are using,etc. All these can make an image look different.

I know about delivering a "color product" to a client. I have shot 4x5 View commercial work in the 80's. (Have any of you?) That was before computers/digital.

If you have a question on the "pink" and the Alien Bees, go right to the source himself. Paul Buff has his own forums, for people who buy his products. There are no comments on "pinkish." http://www.paulcbuff.com/forums/index.php

You will see some really great images.

[TMR Design]

We've already established that several people are showing pink in their gray or white card and walls. Since every environment is different then it would be silly to assume that they are all recreating the same color cast with paint, curtains, wood floors, a red shirt, etc.

We can eliminate that because there are several instances, all with different circumstances, and each one is setting a custom white balance.

I do not believe for a minute that all the professionals using expodiscs, whibal cards, etc are not achieveing accurate color or that their color is more accurate by generically setting the color temperature to the listed temp by the manufacturer. Most Alien Bees users I know always use a higher temperature than the listed 5600 K because they find it to be more accurate than 5600 K. When I shoot my Bees at 5600 K the skin is pale and lacks color and is far from true.

So far there's just more speculation. I can appreciate that everyone is looking for a solution but no one is conducting any tests. Pure speculation.

Later this afternoon I'll post images after doing some testing. I would love to think it's a simple solution and if in fact using the specified color temperature is the solution to eliminating the pink then it's not really a solution because that is not accurate color.

I guess at that point you have to figure out what you want to correct... The pink that appears from custom white balance of bringing color back into the skin tones from using 5600 K.

Images and tests will help us all get the answer. Guessing and speculation do nothing.

Unfortunately I don't post problems and issues on the Buff forums. As much as I like the company and support them I also see the way Paul and his followers jump all over anyone that has a bad word to say about the product.

At least here on POTN you can state opinion or even let off some steam about a product or company. If you've been following the Buff forums you'll see that bad press is squelched. Negative posts are removed and unhappy customers are silenced.

Anyway, I would much prefer to see someone show me through images that there is no problem or how to correct it.

[pparker]

Robert, there many other variables that would lead to a color bias. Your statement that your images look pale and far from true when shooting at the rated color temp. of your lights, leads me to believe you may not be softproofing during the entire PP workflow.

In my own case, when I prepare a file to be sent off to MPIX or WHCC, I generally shift colorspaces from RGB to SRGB and from 16 bit to 8 bit and then to JPEG . That in itself will dramatically shift color towards red, especially if you've already added a little saturation (at least on my monitor)which is calibrated with Coloreyes and X-Rite Colorimeter. You basically go through the same process to change your images to JPEG for web output so the color bias would be there too.

If you are not soft proofing during your entire workflow, whether for print or web output, its very easy to end up with a color bias, and frequently leaning towards red. Its very common for me to forget to softproof prior to posting on the web, so I'm not saying above all this.

As far as Paul C. Buff and his Alien Bees are concerned, one of the reasons the bees are so popular is because of their consistent color temp. output. I don't think for a moment that this is an equipment problem.

[Curtis N]

We've already established that several people are showing pink in their gray or white card and walls.As far as I can tell, all we've established is that 1) I got a red tint shooting over a red tablecloth, and 2) Leo took pictures of a wall that wasn't a neutral color.So far there's just more speculation. I can appreciate that everyone is looking for a solution but no one is conducting any tests. Pure speculation.My take on it at this point is that few of us are looking for a solution because we're not convinced there is a problem.

I look forward to your test results. Be prepared for some healthy, scientific skepticism. ;)

[magicmikey]

Manually setting your camera's color temp. to your studio lights flash tube Kelvin rating makes (5500 K for my lights) more sense than doing a custom white balance using a Whibal card, Expodisc or anything else.


I may be mistaken here but doesn't the color balance of flash tubes shift as they age? If that's the case, then setting the camera's white balance to the rated Kelvin temperature wouldn't be accurate. (Plus, for those of us not using cameras with adjustable color temperature, this isn't an option.)

I would think a custom white balance would be better but that also assumes that the camera is accurately setting the white balance. I don't know enough about the process the camera uses for adjusting to the custom white balance, but couldn't the camera itself be off?

Michael

[TMR Design]

Hi Michael,

Unfortunately I've seen it from a few sources, and I'm not referring to the images that Curtis or Leo have posted. I'm referring to tests I've done myself and those done by a friend of mine also using Alien Bees strobes. That is what I'm so curious about. If it was just me then I would readily accept that I'm doing something wrong or my equipment or technique is wrong but it's not just me.

[In2Photos]

Maybe all you guys are just fond of the color pink. :p

[magicmikey]

Hi Michael,

Unfortunately I've seen it from a few sources, and I'm not referring to the images that Curtis or Leo have posted. I'm referring to tests I've done myself and those done by a friend of mine also using Alien Bees strobes. That is what I'm so curious about. If it was just me then I would readily accept that I'm doing something wrong or my equipment or technique is wrong but it's not just me.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but are they all using Canon cameras? If so, maybe there's a bias in the Canon cameras. I know that a friend of mine shoots with a Nikon D70 and his camera does average white balance considerably better in some circumstances than my Canon Rebel XTi.

In fact, he's almost never done a custom white balance even when shooting with his older White Lightning Ultra strobes. The first time he noticed it missing badly was when he was shooting without flash in tungsten lighting. He was surprised because he had never seen it off by that much before and he's owned the D70 since they came out.

I also know that DPReview has continuously pointed out how badly Canon camera's white balance under tungsten lighting in AWB. It may be apples to oranges to discuss a camera's abilities to get the right color balance in AWB vs. custom white balance but it makes me wonder.

Michael

[RichNY]

Pete- I believe that the reason that you should not set your lights up to degrees Kelvin has to do with the fact that all lights will vary their color temp. based on how much of their output they are discharging. Top of the line Broncholors only have a 100 degree temp. variation over a 4 stop range- other less expensive brands can have several hundred degrees of difference between shooting at full power and shooting at lowest power.

Considering that many feel that the pink many have seen isn't caused by the Alien Bees that nobody has posted any pictures showing that I am incorrect in my understanding of the tint issue.

Curtis- What's your understanding of why the red tablecloth didn't affect the 580's shots? You took both sets of images in the same position, right?

[Longwatcher]

Just a quick note:
What is the color of the modeling light used. if it is on, it has a huge effect on the color cast.

Meanwhile, I have been using the AB's for over 4 years now and have not noticed any particular color cast to the lights themselves, that does not also show up in daylight (non-flash) shots. Which tells me the Camera is the cause.

I have noted a huge difference if I have modeling lights on, in which case I get a slight blue tint because of the light bulbs I am using.

[pparker]

Rich,
depending on your lights, yes, you can get a color change when varying the power of your lights, but not as greatly with higher end flashes. That's one of the reasons I went wlith the new Novatron M-600's. Novatron claims that there is only a maximum of 100 degrees Kelvin shift throughout the power range.
Michael, you are also correct about aging flash tubes causing color shifts. I think when it starts to become noticable with my units, I'll just change out all my flash tubes at once. Until then, I still set my color temp. at the same rating as my flash tubes and it works for what I'm doing for the time being.

Alien Bees didn't get so popular because they were sub par. They're good units, and I've only heard good things about them. I have to assume that any color biases noted were probably a human induced problem. With all the hardware and software we use for digital photography, there's plenty of room for things not to be absolutely perfect.

[PacAce]

Rich,
depending on your lights, yes, you can get a color change when varying the power of your lights, but not as greatly with higher end flashes. That's one of the reasons I went wlith the new Novatron M-600's. Novatron claims that there is only a maximum of 100 degrees Kelvin shift throughout the power range.
Michael, you are also correct about aging flash tubes causing color shifts. I think when it starts to become noticable with my units, I'll just change out all my flash tubes at once. Until then, I still set my color temp. at the same rating as my flash tubes and it works for what I'm doing for the time being.

Alien Bees didn't get so popular because they were sub par. They're good units, and I've only heard good things about them. I have to assume that any color biases noted were probably a human induced problem. With all the hardware and software we use for digital photography, there's plenty of room for things not to be absolutely perfect.
Actually, there is a noticeable shift in color cast when going from full power to minimum power. And, on top of that, the color temperature claimed on their website does not seem to match what I'm getting.

In the first photo below, the middle frame was shot using custom white balance with the power set somewhere in the middle of the range.

The frame on the left was shot at minimum power and without changing the custom white balance. Notice the slight pink color cast?

The frame on the right was shot at close to full power but not quite since my aperture doesn't close down to f/25, again, no change in custom white balance. This frame leans towards the cool side.

233087


And in the image below, the same raw images were processed with the color temperature set to 5600K which is what the AB website claims their B800s were matched to. The color temperatur in the middle power range was more like 5500K and a little higher at the max power range.

233088


I also noticed that as the light intensity starts to fall off near the fringes, it starts to develop a pink color cast. But as long the the scene is evenly lit, this isn't really a problem.

What would be a problem is if multiple AB strobes are being used at different power levels and the difference is more than about two stops.

What I haven't checked out yet is if there's a color temp difference between, say, the B400 at full power and the B800 at full power. If there isn't, using strobes of different powers might be a way to get around the color cast introduced by using different power levels with the same type of AB strobe.

Since I only have one B800 and one B400, I can't determine if the color temperatures are consistent across models.

[EDIT: BTW, those test shots were done with a B800 with the 7" reflector on to minimize stray light bouncing off my beige colored walls. The modeling light was turned off and I also turned down the overhead room lights.

[RichNY]

Leo- Thanks for taking the time to test and post. Would you humor me for a minute- use the custom white balance you set and just shoot a piece of white seamless and post. I believe the pink seems to show up most on white.

[PacAce]

Leo- Thanks for taking the time to test and post. Would you humor me for a minute- use the custom white balance you set and just shoot a piece of white seamless and post. I believe the pink seems to show up most on white.

Do you mean just shoot a white piece of paper with the strove providing the lighting? Sure, I can do that but I don't think you'll see a pink color cast if I keep the lighting even and not blow anything out. We'll know in the next 10 or 15 minutes or so. :)

BTW, I don't have white seamless paper. Will a white poster board do?

[RichNY]

Just shooting the white poster board should be fine but don't blow out the detail with and use a custom white balance for your Bees.

[PacAce]

Just shooting the white poster board should be fine but don't blow out the detail with and use a custom white balance for your Bees.

Okeydoke. Back in a jiffy...

[PacAce]

OK, here are the shots of the white board. I took four pictures and each are labeled appropriately. I included a shot taken with the 580EX to serve as a control just to make sure that whatever pink you see is not actually on the board itself.

The last shot I took was with the modeling bulb removed just so that if there were any pink color cast, we can see if it's the bulb that's causing it.

233154

233155

Hmmm, is it just me or is there a slight amount of color banding in the images?

[RichNY]

I don't see any pink or color banding on your shots. Robert will be posting his pink shots tomorrow as a comparison.

[Inspired Photography]

Why is this even an issue?

Shoot your image, adjust as necessary...

Next thing people will be telling me a few dirty marks on the front of my softbox is going to screw up my shots.

Over the last few months, i have had the fortune to work with some well noted photographers. Do you think they give two craps about stuff like this? No way...

Come on people... just get out and shoot images. Measurebating all day might entertain some, but you will be too busy worrying about stuff that doesn't really matter to actually take photos worth having.

Rob

[jrsforums]

Hi Curtis,

I understand all that. The pink tint I've seen is there AFTER setting a custom white balance and I've seen it from gray cards and the expodisc. I know it goes against logic but that is what prompted Rich to post originally. Again, I saw the same results from someone else in a different environment with Alien Bees, and after setting a custom white balance with the expodisc she generated images that had a pinkish tint.

Did she use the expodisk to measure the reflected light or did she shoot into the light to measure the incident light? It can make a big difference. Expodisk suggests using incident for accuracy.

[PacAce]

Why is this even an issue?

Shoot your image, adjust as necessary...

Next thing people will be telling me a few dirty marks on the front of my softbox is going to screw up my shots.

Over the last few months, i have had the fortune to work with some well noted photographers. Do you think they give two craps about stuff like this? No way...

Come on people... just get out and shoot images. Measurebating all day might entertain some, but you will be too busy worrying about stuff that doesn't really matter to actually take photos worth having.

Rob
I think Rick has a legitimate concern, especially if he were thinking of getting an AB strobe for himself and wanted to research it first. A strobe having an even color cast is easily fixed by custom white balancing or the use of the gray eye dropper. However, if the color cast is uneven depending on the intensity of the light, how do you propose that color cast be removed?

This is a technical lighting forum. People come here to ask questions and, hopefully, to get answers. And, in case you haven't noticed, the measureabators are shooting pictures. They may not be what you might consider interesting but I'm sure they are of interest to some other people. If this isn't your cup of tea, there are a lot of other photo sharing forums you can hang out in.

[Wilt]

Folks, it bears stating once again, since people do not seem to be internalizing this concept:
COLOR BALANCE is different than TINT.


Color balance could be perfectly neutral in the blue-yellow axis, yet a prodominant tint could exist in the green-magenta axis. This is why programs like Lightroom have a Temp adjustment and also there is a Tint adjustment, and RawShooter has Color Temp and Tint adjustments in the RAW conversion!

[PacAce]

At this point, I'm going to ask anybody who's going to post to please stay on topic since I don't want this to go off track into a heated debate. If you have anything to add to answer the OP's question, please post. If not, please move on. :)

Wilt, this post is not directed at you. It was prompted by an off-topic post which I ended up deleting.

Thanks.

[Longwatcher]

Although I have not noticed a significant difference, it has been admited by AB's themselves that a small color temperature difference exists as the power levels are changed. However, it is equal to or less then any other light in their price range. If you go up to the top of the line lights then this color cast is barely measurable, but even there it still occurs.

As to the second set of test shots (just the poster board), on my monitor I note a slight blue cast, instead of pink, while the first set (the mannekin head ) shows a slight pink cast.

But in either case this is close enough to easily be fixable in ACR, DPP, C1, or other conversion or post processing programs. The important part is if the lights are consistant.

For AB's they appear to be very consistant above 1/8th power and below 1/8th they tend to get less consistant, but still as good or better as all other lights in their price range. In any case in the tests I did, I think about a year ago I found a maximum of 0.4EV change at lowest power and an average of 0.3 at 1/32nd power. with an maximum/average of 0.3/0.1EV at 1/16th power and at 1/8th and above there was a 0.1/0.0025 variance. My Sekonic meter is limited to 0.1EV differences, so any value at or below 0.1 EV will show as a maximum of 0.1EV. Given that the color temp and tint is directly related to the exposure value of the strobe, these should give you an idea of how much change may occur between flashes.

For trivia, the test results are posted elsewhere, but I set off the flashes at least 40 times for each test and minimized any variables to the extent my living room allows at night time. The 0.0025 variance means one of my 40 shots was off by 0.1EV from the rest.

And for those that don't understand EV. 1.0EV is equal to 1 f-stop value. so 0.3EV is less then 1/3 of a stop.

Now if the lights are casting a pink tint, which I personally have not seen, at least it is consistant and can be easily corrected for.

Just my experience and opinion,

[Titus213]

Interesting comment a bit back about the camera being used. I don't generally have a problem with tint from the camera - unless I'm shooting artwork for someone and then I notice a definite shift to the red. And artists are fussy about the color (rightfully so). It's adjustable out but can be a real problem. I know the raw process can be adjusted to compensate for that and perhaps that would eliminate the shift seen in use of the ABs.

[TMR Design]

HI all,

I just did as comprehensive testing as I know how and I am now presenting my findings. I'm not sure what to make of it all so perhaps others will be able to understand what is happening. At this time it almost leads me back to where I was a few weeks ago when I was questioning some pink in my images. I thought it was the Expodisc and I don't even recall the outcome or if there was a resolve but since then I've continued to use the Expodisc and recently saw the pink again. When I saw this thread I figured we might actually get to the bottom of this issue.

Here is the method I used to conduct my experiments.
Each image is the result of taking a 'gray frame' of the white balance reference at the correct incident exposure and then setting that image as the custom white balance reference in camera. Then I shot an image of white seamless paper using that custom white balance. I did this for each of the items used to set white balance.

The images were shot as RAW files and opened in Lightroom with all settings on Zero, returning all brightness, contrast, tone curves, etc to a zero value with no processing of any kind taking place. Those images were then opened in Photoshop (not ACR) and no additional processing was applied.

My studio has no colored walls or any colored surfaces but to be on the safe side I created a cubicle of sorts using black foam core and isolating the camera, strobe and path between strobe and background so there would be no reflection or color cast from the walls, curtains, etc. I was wearing a black tee shirt just to make sure that I was never contaminating the shot in any way.

Test 1 (left hand column of images) - Using an Alien Bees B800 set at 1/2 power.

First Image: I set the color temperature in camera to 5600K, which is temperature specified by Alien Bees. That gives an obvious blue tint that is visible to the eye and the numbers also indicate a higher level in the blue channel.

Second Image: I used the white seamless itself as the reference and that yielded a very good image with identical values in the channels throughout most of the image with some very slight variation.

Third Image: I used the Sekonic gray card and found a slightly elevated level i the red channel. It's hard to tell by eye whether there is a hint of magenta in the image or not. There are a few images that are that way.

Fourth Image: Using the Novoflex gray card I got a similar image to the one above with some different levels and it's questionable as to whether you can detect magenta.

Fifth Image: I used a piece of white foam core and there is a slightly noticeable blue tint with an elevated level in the blue channel.

Sixth Image: With the Expodisc I seem to get a very noticeable pink tint and and obvious jump in the value of the red channel.

I didn't have another strobe or flash to test so I set up a few 120W compact fluorescents (about 8000 lumens) and repeated the exact same tests. I didn't shoot an image at the specified color temperature of the fluorescents and just started with the white seamless, as in the second Alien Bees image.

Test 2 (right hand column of images) - Using compact fluorescent bulbs.

First Image: Again, I began with white seamless paper and it looks pretty good. It's not as consistent as with the B800 but still good.

Second Image: The Sekonic gray card gave me a completely different tonality than when it was shot with the B800 but it does maintain the elevated red channel.

Third Image: The Novoflex card shows the same tonality and roughly the same relative levels as with the Sekonic card, with elevated red levels.

Fourth Image: White foam core responds the same as it did using the B800, with a slightly higher blue channel and what appears to be the slightest blue tint to the seamless.

Fifth Image: Lastly, the Expodisc shot shows a jump in the red channel and a hint of pink or magenta to the image.

If the actual pink images never appeared I'm not sure I would have noticed or card about the other images that show a hint of magenta or a higher value in the red channel, but
the pink image is what is most unsettling.

At this point I am confused but I know I do not like the pink and don't want to have to correct for it.

So now I'm wondering how to correlate and make sense of this information to make some sort of intelligent determination as to what causes the pink or elevated red levels and what tool is really best for setting a custom white balance. From everything I've seen this evening it would seem that white seamless paper is the most accurate in terms of recording equal amounts of red, green and blue and for all the hype about the Expodisc doing that, it would appear that it does not.

Any insight? Thoughts as to what is happening? I find it interesting that for whatever reason the B800 and Expodisc yield the greatest amount of pink, and also find it very interesting that the color temperatures are what they are. As you can see, when I set my camera to 5600K for the Alien Bees strobe, it comes in a 5250. Similarly you can see that the B800/Expodisc image has shows a color temperature of 5900, which would certainly explain the pink.... but why??

Anyway, here are the images. Have a look.

[PacAce]

HI all,

I just did as comprehensive testing as I know how and I am now presenting my findings. I'm not sure what to make of it all so perhaps others will be able to understand what is happening. At this time it almost leads me back to where I was a few weeks ago when I was questioning some pink in my images. I thought it was the Expodisc and I don't even recall the outcome or if there was a resolve but since then I've continued to use the Expodisc and recently saw the pink again. When I saw this thread I figured we might actually get to the bottom of this issue.

Here is the method I used to conduct my experiments.
Each image is the result of taking a 'gray frame' of the white balance reference at the correct incident exposure and then setting that image as the custom white balance reference in camera. Then I shot an image of white seamless paper using that custom white balance. I did this for each of the items used to set white balance.

The images were shot as RAW files and opened in Lightroom with all settings on Zero, returning all brightness, contrast, tone curves, etc to a zero value with no processing of any kind taking place. Those images were then opened in Photoshop (not ACR) and no additional processing was applied.

My studio has no colored walls or any colored surfaces but to be on the safe side I created a cubicle of sorts using black foam core and isolating the camera, strobe and path between strobe and background so there would be no reflection or color cast from the walls, curtains, etc. I was wearing a black tee shirt just to make sure that I was never contaminating the shot in any way.

Test 1 (left hand column of images) - Using an Alien Bees B800 set at 1/2 power.

First Image: I set the color temperature in camera to 5600K, which is temperature specified by Alien Bees. That gives an obvious blue tint that is visible to the eye and the numbers also indicate a higher level in the blue channel.

Second Image: I used the white seamless itself as the reference and that yielded a very good image with identical values in the channels throughout most of the image with some very slight variation.

Third Image: I used the Sekonic gray card and found a slightly elevated level i the red channel. It's hard to tell by eye whether there is a hint of magenta in the image or not. There are a few images that are that way.

Fourth Image: Using the Novoflex gray card I got a similar image to the one above with some different levels and it's questionable as to whether you can detect magenta.

Fifth Image: I used a piece of white foam core and there is a slightly noticeable blue tint with an elevated level in the blue channel.

Sixth Image: With the Expodisc I seem to get a very noticeable pink tint and and obvious jump in the value of the red channel.

I didn't have another strobe or flash to test so I set up a few 120W compact fluorescents (about 8000 lumens) and repeated the exact same tests. I didn't shoot an image at the specified color temperature of the fluorescents and just started with the white seamless, as in the second Alien Bees image.

Test 2 (right hand column of images) - Using compact fluorescent bulbs.

First Image: Again, I began with white seamless paper and it looks pretty good. It's not as consistent as with the B800 but still good.

Second Image: The Sekonic gray card gave me a completely different tonality than when it was shot with the B800 but it does maintain the elevated red channel.

Third Image: The Novoflex card shows the same tonality and roughly the same relative levels as with the Sekonic card, with elevated red levels.

Fourth Image: White foam core responds the same as it did using the B800, with a slightly higher blue channel and what appears to be the slightest blue tint to the seamless.

Fifth Image: Lastly, the Expodisc shot shows a jump in the red channel and a hint of pink or magenta to the image.

If the actual pink images never appeared I'm not sure I would have noticed or card about the other images that show a hint of magenta or a higher value in the red channel, but
the pink image is what is most unsettling.

At this point I am confused but I know I do not like the pink and don't want to have to correct for it.

So now I'm wondering how to correlate and make sense of this information to make some sort of intelligent determination as to what causes the pink or elevated red levels and what tool is really best for setting a custom white balance. From everything I've seen this evening it would seem that white seamless paper is the most accurate in terms of recording equal amounts of red, green and blue and for all the hype about the Expodisc doing that, it would appear that it does not.

Any insight? Thoughts as to what is happening? I find it interesting that for whatever reason the B800 and Expodisc yield the greatest amount of pink, and also find it very interesting that the color temperatures are what they are. As you can see, when I set my camera to 5600K for the Alien Bees strobe, it comes in a 5250. Similarly you can see that the B800/Expodisc image has shows a color temperature of 5900, which would certainly explain the pink.... but why??

Anyway, here are the images. Have a look.
Robert, what your test is telling me is that none of your CWB targets are matched to the white seamless paper. Since most of your other targets seem to lean towards the pink side, I think it's your seamless paper that's not actually neutral in color although it could also be a combination of that and one of your targets not being neutral. Since the expodisc seems to have the most pink color cast, I suspect the expodisc isn't truly netutral, either. Your Sekonic and Novoflex are pretty close to each other so I suspect they are the most true to neutral. As for the white foam board, well, I doubt that it can really be relied upon to be neutral. :)

Just my 2 cents based on a quick analysis of your results.

[Edit: Here's something you can try. Use the Sekonic gray card as CWB and shot the Novoflex card and the Expodisc. Then use the Novoflex as CWB and shoot the Sekonic card and the Expodisc. Do the same with the Expodisc. What results to you get?

[TMR Design]

Thanks for the quick response Leo. I'm going to try doing what you've suggested and I'll post back with results.

[TMR Design]

Hi Leo,

OK, I just performed the suggested tests and as you probably expected, everything looks fine no matter which reference I use (Sekonic gray card, Novoflex gray card, Expodisc). I'm not seeing any pink tint and each target appears neutral when using any of the others as reference.

So does this mean that the root of the problem is in the Savage super white seamless paper I'm using?

[TMR Design]

I just got off the phone with ExpoImaging. Regardless of what is causing the elevated red levels I was bothered by the fact that it seemed to be magnified when using the Expodisc and also when using lights with a higher color temperature.

According to ExpoImaging, they say that Paul Buff is very aware of color shift issues with his strobes and they also recommend using Bees at higher power levels to get the most consistent color. Having said that, based on my results and from what this engineer was saying, the Bees are not contributing to the issue in any way.

I've emailed him the same test images I posted here and rather than speculate, he asked me to send him my disc and although they will test it, they're going to send me out one of the new discs. He said you can tell relative newness of a disc based on the color of the lanyard. I have a blue lanyard and the new ones are black.

I also asked what the percentage of gray is from an ExpoDisc. There's nothing to indicate it is 18% gray and when compared to gray frames from other cards there appears to be a difference in brightness. As it turns out, the Expodisc can be used as an 18% gray reference for meter calibration or exposure. You still have to keep in mind that not all cameras are actually calibrated for 18% gray but with some adjustment you can determine those offsets.

I'll post back when I hear more about the images I sent or when I get the new disc to see if there is as much of a difference between the disc and a gray card as there is now.

[KimmS]

My Alien Bees B800 gives off horribly pink tints too. I thought it was the brolly box until the company sent me another and that one showed pink tints too. My monitor is calibrated thank you...
So I have to do custom white balance when I use it. What a pain.
By the way, the company officially thinks it couldn't possibly be the light and has to be my Canon, even though I told them that my sisters Nikon also showed pink with the Alien Bees Light. :cry:

[TMR Design]

PCB will never admit there is a problem and others don't seem to care. Sure, we know that you can set a custom white balance every time you adjust the power but that's just silly and time consuming. There are plenty of strobes out there that do not shift color temperature to the extent that Bees do and that keep that window of color temp shift closer to daylight temperature rather than warming up and showing pink/magenta.

If you want more detailed info on this you can PM or email me. I tried to PM/email you but your preferences are set so you can't receive messages.

I don't want to revive this thread and get into it with all those that defend Bees for their inconsistency and don't mind working with them.

Unfortunately you are experiencing what I am others have and it is no your camera or your modifiers. It IS the strobe.

[Jim M]

My Alien Bees B800 gives off horribly pink tints too. I thought it was the brolly box until the company sent me another and that one showed pink tints too. My monitor is calibrated thank you...
So I have to do custom white balance when I use it. What a pain.
By the way, the company officially thinks it couldn't possibly be the light and has to be my Canon, even though I told them that my sisters Nikon also showed pink with the Alien Bees Light. :cry:
Are you sure your monitor is correctly calibrated? The second image looks very greenish-yellow to me. The first isn't completely neutral, but it looks much closer to correct than the second.

[TMR Design]

Are you sure your monitor is correctly calibrated? The second image looks very greenish-yellow to me. The first isn't completely neutral, but it looks much closer to correct than the second.

Jim,

I can appreciate that you are looking for other problems but this has been well documented and discussed. Alien Bees shift color temperature. This is a known issue. Kimm is experiencing exactly what the Bees do.

If you haven't already done so please read earlier posts in this thread. This is not something that has been fabricated and it's not about attacking PCB. It's just a fact of using Alien Bees strobes.

[Wilt]

Are you sure your monitor is correctly calibrated? The second image looks very greenish-yellow to me. The first isn't completely neutral, but it looks much closer to correct than the second.

Yeah, first image a tiny bit magenta, second image is greenish yellow on my monitor, too.

[Jim M]

Jim,

I can appreciate that you are looking for other problems but this has been well documented and discussed. Alien Bees shift color temperature. This is a known issue. Kimm is experiencing exactly what the Bees do.

If you haven't already done so please read earlier posts in this thread. This is not something that has been fabricated and it's not about attacking PCB. It's just a fact of using Alien Bees strobes.
I clearly understand this and I read the thread back when it was new. I don't own Bees nor do I favor them in any way. I don't give a hoot about PCB. It's just that the sample picture that is supposed to be the improved color balance looks yellow-green to me. The Bee picture looks slightly pink. It's a subjective thing, I suppose.

So, to take subjectivity out of it, I loaded the images and measured the colors of what I presume is a neutral gray background. I grant that this may not be truly neutral. On both images at the coordinates of .449 by .555, I got the following information. On the Bee image, I got R 133, G 131, B 145. On the "correct" image, I got R 133, G133, B120. So the Bee image would appear to be 2 units more red and 14 units more blue than a neutral reading. The corrected image would be 13 units less blue than neutral (or 13 units more yellow). So I was off a bit in my subjective analysis and the corrected image is simply more yellow than neutral rather than green, and the Bee image is more pinkish-blue than neutral. Still, I really don't know what color the background was.

As for exchanging the brolly box for a new one from the same manufacturer, I suspect if one box was influencing the color, the next one would be using the same materials and provide the same influence. I think a bare head would be a better test.

Personally, I'll just keep using my old decrepit Novatrons. I have no urge to change.

[Wilt]

I got very similar values as Jim M. The table I consulted lists 136, 136, 136 as absolutely neutral. So the Bee was high in Blue and slightly high in Red; the 'neutral' example was low in Blue but neutral in Red. This copy of the section of the chart shows how this biases the neutral patch...greenish yellow
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/colorbal_chart.jpg

[KimmS]

They are both at 6000k, I understand the wood floor could shift the color.
The first and pinker photo is the Alien Bees B800 with the brolly box, the second photo is the Alien Bees B800 with a Westcott 45" shoot thru umbrella.

I agree with you all that the 2nd picture of the man I posted came out a bit yellow/green. I erred on that side because I liked it a bit more warm.

Here's a link to see the rest of the final portraits I did. They all printed up very neutral looking.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kimshattuck/sets/72157603991154132/


I'm going to save up for a Dynalight UNI jr 400 monolight.

[TMR Design]

That Dynalite is a great strobe. Too things I don't like about it are that power can only vary by 4 stops and only in whole stops. The other thing is that it doesn't auto dump when you adjust the power to a lower level. Most modern day strobes do auto dump. The Uni400JR only gives you an indicator telling you when you need to dump the power but you must do it manually. Not a big deal but I did want to point that out.

[magicmikey]

KimmS,

You do realize that different modifiers will give off different color balances, right? That's not a flaw. That's a difference in materials, design, etc.

In your two examples above, it appears that Westcott shoot through came out a little better but it also appears to be somewhat darker, suggesting that the exposure varied a little.

When you say they were both at 6000k, do you mean that the camera was set to a 6000k white balance?

I'm not really sure what you are trying to show here.

Michael

[KimmS]

I was just showing the same day test of the Westcott vs the AB Brolly box and how the Westcott is a bit warmer.
I am definitely going to do a bare bulb test of the AB light today. I'm not really freaking out about it, I just wish I could be sure that if I were outside and wanted to blend the daylight and the flash that the flash wasn't going to come off purple.

Thanks for all the replies. I actually like the AB light. Just the color balance issues are a sticking point.

[TMR Design]

Kimm,

The problem is not that there is some pink tint to the strobe. The tint comes in to play when for example, you've set a white balance while working at full power and then adjust to 1/4 power but don't set a new custom white balance. Things aren't going to just be pink or magenta but using the strobe.

You just have to make sure that you either set a new custom white balance or shoot a gray frame for reference to use in post.

[KimmS]

All the tests I'm doing are at 3/4 power and I don't change it during the test.
I'm 10 minutes away from doing more tests so stay tuned.

[Jannie]

In the past we'd bounce light off of all different white surfaces using a color temperature meter to validate what was happening, white foam core always reflected warmer than the light we were using to bounce off of it.

[Jannie]

Wander through this link a bit, I lost my place but he explains where the Alien Bees can loose I think 60 degrees Kelvin each time you drop power another stop, using the slide on the strobe head, but strobes that use capacitor switches do not have that happen. It might explain some of what you are seeing, then again, without having experience with strobes, can't you, and wouldn't you color balance at least in studio situations and wouldn't that take care of it?
http://www.paulcbuff.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=59

[Wilt]

Wander through this link a bit, I lost my place but he explains where the Alien Bees can loose I think 60 degrees Kelvin each time you drop power another stop, using the slide on the strobe head, but strobes that use capacitor switches do not have that happen. It might explain some of what you are seeing, then again, without having experience with strobes, can't you, and wouldn't you color balance at least in studio situations and wouldn't that take care of it?
http://www.paulcbuff.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=59

As shown in prior testing of multiple brands, the AB issue is not one of altering 'color temp' (the yellow-blue axis of the color spectrum, expressed as degrees Kelvin) but of the pink-green axis of the color spectrum -- 'tint' -- when power levels are dropped to the minimum level or two

[KimmS]

I'm not dropping the power level down. (now)
And it's still pink no matter what.

[TMR Design]

Try this so we can see something.

Set the power to full. Set a custom white balance. Take a shot and post please.

Then, if you're inclined, do the following.

With that same custom white balance take additional shots a 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 and 1/16 power.

Then take shots at those same power levels without setting a new custom white balance, using the cwb you set for the full power shot.

[Wilt]

When you follow Robert's request, include a grey card or white sheet of paper in the shot, so that we can quantitate color balance or tint at the lower settings after having a full power setting in balance.

[form]

I have noticed a mild color cast when combining with hot shoe flashes, and I think that's partly why I don't use the alienbees strobe as often as I used to. The other reason is because it's not practical for most of my shoots.

I tend to be using my 3x sunpaks for many things now, including head shots, weddings, and just about everything else. They work great; the only thing they leave me wanting is faster recycle time, but I don't know what the best option is for improving that.

[Wilt]

I have noticed a mild color cast when combining with hot shoe flashes, and I think that's partly why I don't use the alienbees strobe as often as I used to. The other reason is because it's not practical for most of my shoots.

I tend to be using my 3x sunpaks for many things now, including head shots, weddings, and just about everything else. They work great; the only thing they leave me wanting is faster recycle time, but I don't know what the best option is for improving that.

Very often, portable hotshoe like flashes have a color temp which is COOLER than daylight, while studio flashes are at or a touch warmer than daylight. That is why my portable flash have a 1/4 CTO or 1/8 CTO gel permanently on the flash!

[form]

I thought that might be the case.

[Jannie]

I've been all excited about AB's since studying Aztech's fashion shots over in lens section under Archives 135mm f2. He use's AB's and the color and look he gets to my mind is breathless.

It could be as he says, he's a real stickler for getting it right and I think I remember he sets up with a McBeth color chart amongst other things.

I'm trying to decide which place to start with one really excellent light to start with for portraiture and then to use the same box/octobox/covered umbrelly/or light panel for product work or buy something else. But I need to set up with a brand for the head first and had fully intended to get AB's (almost ordered them the day before yesterday) until I started reading this thread. Now I'm unsure what to do, considering the Elichrome D 400 but don't have enough information I understand on it either.

But just guessing, I'm still thinking of getting the AB800 with their easy set up 47" Octobox (if this pink thing gets figured out) or:

The Elichrome 400D (I read somewhere that they might now come with a fan) and have heard that their Octobox (hopefully it's an easy to set up location one) in 4' to 5' size.

I'll go up to a thousand dollars on this light/box/stand w/possibly a boom arm setup to be able to work some shots slightly overhead and for product. Am I going in the right direction here?

[Wilt]

I've been all excited about AB's since studying Aztech's fashion shots over in lens section under Archives 135mm f2. He use's AB's and the color and look he gets to my mind is breathless.

It could be as he says, he's a real stickler for getting it right and I think I remember he sets up with a McBeth color chart amongst other things.

I'm trying to decide which place to start with one really excellent light to start with for portraiture and then to use the same box/octobox/covered umbrelly/or light panel for product work or buy something else. But I need to set up with a brand for the head first and had fully intended to get AB's (almost ordered them the day before yesterday) until I started reading this thread. Now I'm unsure what to do, considering the Elichrome D 400 but don't have enough information I understand on it either.

But just guessing, I'm still thinking of getting the AB800 with their easy set up 47" Octobox (if this pink thing gets figured out) or:

The Elichrome 400D (I read somewhere that they might now come with a fan) and have heard that their Octobox (hopefully it's an easy to set up location one) in 4' to 5' size.

I'll go up to a thousand dollars on this light/box/stand w/possibly a boom arm setup to be able to work some shots slightly overhead and for product. Am I going in the right direction here?

Consider this...you can correct tint in postprocessing -- but that assumes it is CONSTANT. Yet the results of tests with the AB seem to indicated some drift is evident (not sure if this drift is worse at lower power levels only, or not...maybe Robert can validate)

[TMR Design]

Hi Wilt,

Yup, I always found the drift to be considerable as you dropped below 1/4 power, getting progressively worse towards minimum power (1/32).

[Rudi]

I'm trying to decide which place to start with one really excellent light to start with for portraiture and then to use the same box/octobox/covered umbrelly/or light panel for product work or buy something else. But I need to set up with a brand for the head first and had fully intended to get AB's (almost ordered them the day before yesterday) until I started reading this thread. Now I'm unsure what to do, considering the Elichrome D 400 but don't have enough information I understand on it either.

Jannie,

If you want to start with one light, I'd stretch just that little bit to the Elinchrom BX400: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/352701-REG/Elinchrom_EL_20534_Style_400BX_Multi_Voltage.html
While the D-Lite 4 will provide the same quality of light (I use them and love them), they are not built to withstand the same level of "enthusiastic handling" that they're likely to be subjected to over time, especially since you plan to hang a fairly large Octa off of the light. Now, I've been using the 53" Octa Midi on mine, but only inside the studio, and I'm told it's only a matter of time before the casing of the D-Lite 4 will break under the strain.

There are ways that you can avoid this problem, one of them is buying a $50 third-party speed ring that can mount directly to the light stand, but IMO you'd be better-off putting that $50 towards the BX400 instead. One of the advantages of using the Elinchrom speed ring supplied with the 53" Octa Midi is that the softbox collapses like an umbrella for transport or storage. It makes it much easier to use on-location, and has other advantages as well (all Rotalux softboxes can be loosened to rotate around the central axis, so you can position the softbox exactly the way you want).

Just FYI, I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I am currently in the market for an RX600 strobe for my main light. This is Elinchrom's top of the line monobloc, and might be overkill for you. Then again, I've never gone wrong buying the best of breed! :) I have decided that I would be best served by putting the $50 that I will save by not buying the third-party speed ring towards this purchase.

Good luck with your decision. Just one more point: I don't think you can go wrong buying Elinchrom! Doesn't matter which model you decide on, they make some of the best lighting equipment available.

[Jannie]

Thanks Rudi, I ran across the BX400 yesterday, found that Ebay had a much better site for showing and describing the lights than Bogen Imagining. I was concerned as you have commented from a review of the D lite that it's mounting bracket would not hold up. I'm used to heavey duty grip equipment coming out of the film industry, that stuff is built to take a lot and I've noticed there's a lot of compromise with still lighting equipment. Then again there is the need to make it light weight when you have to haul and set up everything by yourself as so many do.

I looked at the BX400 two light kit as well, and that 53inch Octobox which also has an internal diffuser. If I need to make it even softer I can sew socks to cover the front once I find the right materials.

Sooooo, I did not see the BX600, will go look, seeing that I'll probably start with only one or two lights; my experience in the past has been that much of the time (not always) it is a benefit to have your source at least twice as large as the area you are shooting (this is a very broad statement dependent upon distance etc and very different lighting sources than with strobes) and I've often doubled that for the fill as well, or did a same size bounce off of textured styrofoam boards we called bead board, I think it's white insulation from the construction industry but it's super soft (and can be a little messy). I've generally found foam core okay as well for fill but too punchy to bounce off of for the key unless using several of them in panel and keeping them at at least twice the distance so the light gets to mix like soup and it seems to soften a bit.

Most of this is not possible with one person setting up and small spaces not planned for, just the ones you have to use because your there. So I'm trying to figure the best "kit" that'll keep it small and yet have more than enough power, you can always dim down but doubling up gets to be a chore.

So I'll look at the BX600 as well when I'm next at my store, and ask for a demonstration of both it and the BX 400 and their octobox. It should be both fun and interesting.

[TMR Design]

There is no 600BX. To get 600ws or more you need to jump to the Style 600RX.

The BX is only available as a 100 or 400ws version and from what I've seen, we can't get the 100BX here in the US.

[epatt250]

Do the white lightnings have the same issues as the bees? They are obviously higher and more expensive. Is the only thing you gain from them an aluminum body and higher wattage modeling lamps? I see tons of AB info and tests on the forum but I dont think I have ever seen much feedback or any tests at all on the white lightning stuff.

[TMR Design]

My understanding of the White Lightning's are that they not only have a better build but are more consistent in both pop to pop and color than the Bees.

[Jannie]

I found out yes indeed there is no 600BX.

I went to my store and they're really pushing Profoto, hoboy this is getting expensive, the best deals from Alien Bees, Elinchrom and Profoto in the monoheads is to get a kit plus add the octobox.

Alien Bees has two B800, 2 stands, 2 umbrellas and add a 47" Octobox and it'll come to approx, $780

The Elinchrom kit with 2 400BX, 2 umbrellas, 2 stands and cases plus add a 56" Ocotobox which comes with 2 diffusers for approx $1,450

The Profoto kit with 2 600R, 2 stands, 2 white umbrellas a large case and add a 5' octobox and it's about $2,300.

Now I have not figured out the actual wattage comparisons but guessed about what in what each company made that might be approximately in the power range I'd need.

Now my inclination if to go in the middle with the Elinchrom but there's going to be a workshop with a well known local photographer in a couple of weeks sponsored by Profoto so I'll get to see some techniques that still photograpers use with strobe setups.

I do notice however that in my old fashioned ways and in looking at this guys work, along with many of the up to date styles, I love the photos but don't really appreciate the lighting styles. I tend to want a much softer lighting effect on faces. Oh lordy I am old, getting old fashioned and expecting it to be the "right way", I used to wonder at those kinds of people in my peak years. Maybe I can learn both? Maybe.

There's a bunch of difference in all of these price wise, I'd most like to be under a thousand but I'd also be more thrilled with one really great light with a fantastic box/octobox/or umbrella than two lights and a bunch of stuff.

There's also a part of me that says I should get the Elinchrome and a 7' octobox, I dont' know however if the 400BX would be powerful enough for that big of a unit. There is so much I still do not understand about the physical end of working with strobes, in the end the application and creating the light I imagine will be much the same, I think I have to look at it that way.

[TMR Design]

I found out yes indeed there is no 600BX.

I went to my store and they're really pushing Profoto, hoboy this is getting expensive, the best deals from Alien Bees, Elinchrom and Profoto in the monoheads is to get a kit plus add the octobox.

Alien Bees has two B800, 2 stands, 2 umbrellas and add a 47" Octobox and it'll come to approx, $780

The Elinchrom kit with 2 400BX, 2 umbrellas, 2 stands and cases plus add a 56" Ocotobox which comes with 2 diffusers for approx $1,450

The Profoto kit with 2 600R, 2 stands, 2 white umbrellas a large case and add a 5' octobox and it's about $2,300.

Now I have not figured out the actual wattage comparisons but guessed about what in what each company made that might be approximately in the power range I'd need.

Now my inclination if to go in the middle with the Elinchrom but there's going to be a workshop with a well known local photographer in a couple of weeks sponsored by Profoto so I'll get to see some techniques that still photograpers use with strobe setups.

I do notice however that in my old fashioned ways and in looking at this guys work, along with many of the up to date styles, I tend to want a much softer lighting effect on faces. Oh lordy I am old, getting old fashioned and expecting it to be the "right way", I used to wonder at those kinds of people in my peak years. Maybe I can learn both? Maybe.

There's a bunch of difference in all of these pricewise, I'd most like to be under a thousand but I'd also be more thrilled with one really great light with a fantastic box/octobox/or umbrella than two lights and a bunch of stuff.

There's also a part of me that says I should get the Elinchrome and a 7' octobox, I dont' know however if the 400BX would be powerful enough for that big of a unit. There is so much I still do not understand about the physical end of working with strobes, in the end the application and creating the light I imagine will be much the same, I think I have to look at it that way.

You'll have no trouble at all with a 400ws strobe and a 7 foot octa, especially if it's the Elinchrom Octa. That thing produces amazingly even and soft light from edge to edge and center to edge. I realize the Elinchrom is a better price for the kit you're looking at assembling but Elinchrom is not to be considered second or inferior to Profoto. I know professionals on both sides of the fence and I've personally done some testing with a Profoto Acute 2400 pack and heads and did not find the consistency or accurate degree of control that I have found and tested in Elinchrom's, and that even applies to the D-Lite's.

[TMR Design]

Very important. It should be noted that if you have that large Octa and you don't have the RX's you can't adjust the power unless you peel a corner back on the diffusion panel to make the adjustment, and then seal it back up again.:D

If you're not getting RX'x then other modifiers may be a better choice.

[Jannie]

Hoboy this is like me and computers, RX's is that a remote control adjustment for power that is at the camera or on my person. I use a 5D, I'll also either have to be using a cable sync or some radio attachment to my camera to make the flash go off won't I. Actually for what I'm anticipating (this is growing all the time) a 15' cable will be plenty for the key light with portraiture and also for table top but that'll prolly need a different kind of softbox.

[TMR Design]

Hoboy this is like me and computers, RX's is that a remote control adjustment for power that is at the camera or on my person. I use a 5D, I'll also either have to be using a cable sync or some radio attachment to my camera to make the flash go off won't I. Actually for what I'm anticipating (this is growing all the time) a 15' cable will be plenty for the key light with portraiture and also for table top but that'll prolly need a different kind of softbox.

Hi Jannie,

Sorry. By RX I mean the Elinchrom Style 300RX, 600RX, or 1200RX. Once you get to the Style RX's you can control the power remotely via the Elinchrom wired hand held remote or the Elinchrom Skyports. If you don't have the Style RX strobes then you can not control them remotely and thus it becomes a pain in the arse to get inside the Octa to adjust power. If you got Style 400BX's then I would go for a different Octa that has the strobe and its controls outside the box.

[Jannie]

Okay, that's important, I'd imagine real important once you start shooting.

In my fantasy world here's what I think I'd like most to start with.

2 400BX kit : http://www.amazon.com/Elinchrom-EL-400BXKIT-Style-Complete/dp/B0007NA6AO/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1218901113&sr=1-4

This 7' Octobox but if it's the one you say is trouble then I might want to keep looking, the RX heads are a lot more expensive aren't they:
http://www.amazon.com/Elinchrom-EL-26158-74-Inch-Light/dp/B00009XVMY/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1218901390&sr=1-11

[TMR Design]

I have that kit but I'm using softboxes and other modifiers. For my purposes the included umbrellas are useless but the kit is well worth it even if it didn't come with unmbrellas. Keep in mind that if you want to get softboxes or octaboxes you'll need the appropriate speedring with an Elinchrom mount. It does not have to the Elinchrom brand speed ring because all manufacturers of boxes make speedrings with mounts for mot or all the popular brands.

I use Photoflex softboxes with Photoflex/Elinchrom speed rings and all is well.

[Jannie]

Hey Robert I'm kind of looking in the dark here, which softboxes would you recommend more specifically. When I go to this workshop, it is part of a three day series of workshops and both Profoto and Elinchrom will have discounts if I buy then, it might be a good way to go, I don't know but I'd I'll be studying until then, possibly picking up books specifically for still photographers doing portrait work and anther for product, although I know a lot about how to get the look I'll want at the time, I'll need a much better understanding as to the tools specifically made for strobes to do it.

Specifically in my mind at this time I' want a portable location box of some kind for portraits, which I can handle myself and will give a ultra smooth soft key, I've expected it to be fairly large so I can move it front to back along the key side to control he wrap and then use something portable, probably relatively large to bounce from the side as an edge/side fill depending on what I'm getting out of the key.

I'm guessing the 56" Octobox is too small, I don't know really and it sure would be easier to handle but I would imagine it would not have nearly as much wrap as a larger one.

The other light would probably be to control the background, I'm not much into hair lights unless I cannot get the separation by light or color on the background, not saying never but I don't particularly like them to show.

I would also like a box of some size that will work on table top stuff that'll work for food photography, table top, stuff I might sell over the internet if that works out, unsure if that's a good or doable idea a this time. I'm guessing 3x4' or something around that size and use a second small box (these boxes could be purchased later, I'd guess I'll need at least 3 lights within the next six to eight months anyway but not right at first).

So 2 lights could start with one but expect to in the end wind up with three.
Stands
Will eventually get a heavier stand and boom arm
large box for portraits
medium box for table top, over the top of table or alongside-- this one looks good http://www.amazon.com/Elinchrom-EL-26158-74-Inch-Light/dp/B00009XVMY/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1218901390&sr=1-11
possibly a small box for table top as well.

[Jannie]

You mean this?
http://www.amazon.com/Elinchrom-EL-26158-74-Inch-Light/dp/B00009XVMY/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1218901390&sr=1-11

[TMR Design]

Yes, that is the large Octa I was referring to, but why do you feel the 56" won't be large enough?

That's a very nice size and can do a lot for you. That box and an umbrella, softbox or additional octa for fill will do amazing things.

[Jannie]

I have always used large but not in this field, I think the 56" would be a lot nicer to work with in peoples homes, that and it'd work better for table top as well.

So I think I'm getting somewhere here, would it work to use a 300RX and a 600RX like in this kit and then add a 56" Octobox? The 300RX if I'm understanding this right has nearly as much power as an Alien Bee 800 which I think is 360W.

http://www.amazon.com/Elinchrom-EL-26158-74-Inch-Light/dp/B00009XVMY/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1218901390&sr=1-11

http://www.amazon.com/Elinchrom-EL-26184-Octagonal-Diffusers/dp/B00009XVNA/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1218901264&sr=1-7

Or I can just get one 600RX/stand/56" Octobox, a second stand and use my new 48" Lastolight reflector and get myself at least started with people.

Or I can just get one 600RX/stand/56" Octobox, a second stand and use my new 48" Lastolight reflector and get myself at least started with people.

http://www.amazon.com/Elinchrom-EL-26184-Octagonal-Diffusers/dp/B00009XVNA/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1218901264&sr=1-7

[TMR Design]

I don't recommend mixing 300RX's and 600RX's for the following reasons:

1. To the best of my knowledge you can't have proportional modeling lights between the two. Even though you can use the modeling lights in 'free' mode and set them accordingly you would have to do some careful testing to find the settings for that to work.

2. Look at the price of a 300RX compared to a 600RX. For the price I can't see getting the 300RX. I know there's a 1 stop difference but the price is so close that it just doesn't make sense in my opinion.

[Jannie]

Okay, I haven't been able to find a 600RX kit yet, but I've only been looking on Amazon. If they don't offer one, I could get one light, the box, two stands and use my reflector, that's a start.

http://www.amazon.com/Elinchrom-EL-20726-Digital-Compact/dp/B000EDSRKS/ref=sr_1_49?ie=UTF8&s=photo&qid=1218923342&sr=1-49
http://www.amazon.com/Elinchrom-EL-26184-Octagonal-Diffusers/dp/B00009XVNA/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1218901264&sr=1-7
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/375535-REG/Lastolite_LL_LR3731_TriGrip_Reflector_Silver_White _.html

[TMR Design]

Jannie,

Here is a 2 light Style 600RX kit.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/557086-REG/Elinchrom_EL_20728_2_Digital_Style_Combo_600RX.htm l

and another:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/358757-REG/Elinchrom_EL_20744_Digital_Style_600RX_Flash.html

[Jannie]

Okay thanks, there is a large difference between the price listed in the two links but I don't understand the difference in the offering?

Opps, got it, one comes with accessories the other does not. Thanks.

[TMR Design]

You got it Jannie.

It gets pricey, I know. If you can afford it I don't think you'll be one bit disappointed.

I'm in heaven with Elinchrom's. They are VERY impressive when it comes to consistent results, accuracy and overall build and feel. I haven't done all the testing yet but I can tell you that at full power I can easily sync at 1/250s, which is the max shutter sync speed on my Nikon D300.

If you don't need the remote control, honestly I would save some cash and get the 400BX. I think you have a feeling they'll be underpowered and I'm fairly certain that won't be the case. A 400BX kit would serve you well and you can use the extra cash on some very nice modifiers and accessories. As I'm sure you know, that accessories can really add up.

[Rudi]

Jannie,

You mention you'd rather have a nice one-light kit than an inferior two-light kit. Well, honestly, one RX600 with the 7' Octa Light Bank is about as good as it gets for a one-light kit. Elinchrom have been making that 7' Octa for 20 years now, and it's still a favourite among fashion and portrait shooters. Other makers have stepped up and started making similar offerings, but the Elinchrom Octa is still regarded as the best of breed. Joe McNally lugs his Octa all around the world, that's how much he likes and uses it...

[doidinho]

I read through a bunch of these pages, but not all of them. Here is a possible explaination I found for the color tint:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/31262638@N00/discuss/72157604495694268/

[TMR Design]

If you read the thread and understand the problem you would see that it s the strobes and has to do with the color shift when you reduce the power. It's not the diffusers of modifiers. It's the strobes and that's been proven and even Paul Buff acknowledges this.

[KimmS]

Well, I always have power at 3/4 and it's pinkish then too.
Dang, my sync jack just started shorting out on the light so now I'm sending it to Alien Bees for repair.
Luckily they have a 2 year warranty.

[magicmikey]

KimmS,

If you're using your Alienbees at the same power setting consistently and are not firing them off in rapid succession (i.e. you are allowing a few seconds between each shot), then a custom white balance should take care of the pink color. Unless you are mixing brands of strobes, the color temperature of your Alienbees should not be a problem with a custom white balance. What Robert has been talking about is a color shift that occurs when you change the power.

Robert noticed enough of a difference between lower power settings that he would have to do a custom white balance every time he adjusted the strobes. This is not what you are describing.

Have you done a custom white balance when you have used your Alienbees?

Michael

[TMR Design]

Kimm,

I know this is frustrating and I'm not exactly sure what is happening in your situation but if you're working at 3/4 power and not adjusting the level then it has to be a white balance issue. I haven't seen the problem we've been describing if you set a custom white balance and are not varying the power.

[doidinho]

What do you think about the full/1/4 power of the White Lightning 1600's; would these allow you more room to work around the pink tint issue at low settings?

To put it another way, if you were to have the unit on full power, move the slider from the highest to lowest setting, switch to 1/4 power and move the slider to the highest setting, and then move the slider from the highest to lowest setting again, do you think the color temp would drop, jump back up, and then drop again, or just drop continually throughout the whole procedure?