My friend's suspension (WARNING: graphic piercing images)

[MattSEG]

http://www.swspeed.com/matt/morgan/8.jpg
http://www.swspeed.com/matt/morgan/6.jpg
http://www.swspeed.com/matt/morgan/2.jpg
whatcha think?

[mickle]

I think she's mad :?

Mike

[c0ntr0lz]

i just don't understand that, very odd. no way in the world that i could stand that or even seeing it. ouch

[lomond]

One word.
Why :?

[evidence tech]

It looks like she was being displayed as the "best catch" at a fishing derby....very bizarre :? :?

[rick barclay]

Diffrent strokes for diffrent folks, I guess. (Eeeeewwww ::shiver:: )

The subject matter really distracts one from offering a critique of the
photo, itself, now, doesn't it?

[roanjohn]

It makes me shiver!!!

A bit blurry.........but you got your point across........i Think.......

Ro1

[Nana]

Jeeeez that looks nasty. Makes me feel sick. :?
But as a photo I think the #2 is best. Nice lightnings in all.

[tofuboy]

Reminds me of a Japanese yakuza movie I saw... they did something like that (but much more extreme) to suspend a guy in the air with his back facing towards the ceiling. Torturing him to get whatever information.. then to make things even better (or worse?), they poured very hot oil on his back... mmm, the sizzle.

As far as the pictures go... I think #1 would have been better if it were taken from more of an angle (something like the angle in #2)... so show how much the skin is being pulled away from the body better. So any chance you can get this girl to do that again anytime soon so you can take some more photos? ^^;;

[CDickinson]

Matt -

Where are you located ? and who was leading the suspension rituals? Curious because we do them here and I've posted shots of hook pulls/suspension (I also shoot a little more edgy subject matters)
....on to the photos -
are you shooting to document for a friend?
are you shooting to document the event ?
whats the intent of the work? art ? photojournalism? etc...
Will be glad to give you a critique of suspension photos, just want to know your intentions when you shoot.

[seadog]

Here is a pic of my suspension.
http://mysticcobra.net/system/suspension.jpg

[pcasciola]

Shock factor.......8

Photo Quality......2

Stupidity.......Priceless.

[Kenski]

Shock factor.......8

Photo Quality......2

Stupidity.......Priceless.


I disagree with the photo quality rating... I think this is look he is going for.. The lighting is very good.. What camera flash where you using??

I wasn't expecting something like this.. I was expecting a lifted Chevy or Ford or something!! :) lol

[MattSEG]

The guy doing the 'event' is steve truitt, he's the bald guy.

I shot them just for a friend, some good pics of something important to her. The lighting in the rooms was horrible, those are like 1/30sec exposures. I have other pics but they weren't as good...but I have some of the skin being pulled.

[Belmondo]

The next person you meet who claims to be a hooker might not be saying what you're thinking. Excuse me now; I'm going somewhere nice and private so I can hurl.

:? :shock:

[Radtech1]

Shock factor.......8

Photo Quality......2

Stupidity.......Priceless.

Hmmm...

Pcasciola, that comment reminds me of Steve Martin's old "Grandmother Song" where his grandmother gives him some advice on life. Among other things she urges him to "Criticize thing you don't know about"

Personally, I really like both of the first two shots. The third one does nothing for me and seems to be more of a snapshot.

On the first one, it is about 90% perfect. The only thing that I would wish away would be the guy on the right of the frame. The other two on-lookers are what makes the shot for me. They both look so, well, I guess Mormon is the best way to describe it. Conservative, tasteful, decorous, modest. Yet they are watching/participating in some very "on the edge" behavior.

Unfortunately, the guy's motion blur detracts from the overall shot, but nothing can be done about it now.

Second shot I really like for a different reason entirely. I like color, the way the greenish cast in the background contrasts with the warm of her skin. Getting near surreal. Beautiful shot.

Third, as mentioned, eeeh, does nothing.

Again, both of the first do a wonderful job of imparting what a sublime and transcendent experience this must have been, both to experience and to witness.

Well done.

Rad

[manncer]

:roll: :oops: :cry:

Really glad you posted these. Adds a lot of class.


manncer

[Radtech1]

Really glad you posted these. Adds a lot of class.

manncer

As I said above, that comment reminds me of Steve Martin's old "Grandmother Song" where his grandmother gives him some advice on life. Among other things she urges him to "Criticize thing you don't know about."

But on second thought, you might have a point. Let's compare these shots to the ones that you have posted...
...
...
...
WAIT A MINUTE!!! You havent posted any!!!! At least this guy stepped up to the plate and shared his work. You are kind of like the fish telling a bird, "I don't like the way you're flying."

[Ikinaa]

I'm rather neutral on the subject, as I think anyone should do what he wants as long as he doesn't interfere with others or harm others with his/her opinions or doings...
But ...
Why does anyone do this? Is it simply because they need pain (masochism)? Is it some ritual for some association? Did she want it? Did she do it, because she had to? or ... why?
And you talk about suspension... did the feet leave ground? must have torn the skin/muscles from the bones in the back... I'm no medic, but if the muscles once leave the bones, do they attach again in a correct way or will there be permanent damage? You see... I want the whole story behind the pictures...

As for the quality of the pictures... IMO they are technically not so good, low light and no use of flash make seldom good pictures for subjects like these. For documentation or memory they're good enough... better have low-quality pictures of such an 'important' happening than none at all.

[MattSEG]

I didn't mean to cause such controversy...

We all have different taste, the bulk of the flower/moutain/stream/etc shops do nothing for me, as I've seen it a million times. I love street photography and the human condition...and I like capturing it in the most real way possible...and thats what I felt I did with these.

For the tech about suspensions...it just goes through skin, subcutaneous, and yes, you can hang from this. And she did. The girl is a dear friend of mine, she's into body modding, and she's a cancer survivor...her rational is what doesn't kill her makes her stronger...and this is another such example.

here are a few more pics of the day.
http://www.swspeed.com/matt/morgan/9.jpg
http://www.swspeed.com/matt/morgan/7.jpg
http://www.swspeed.com/matt/morgan/4.jpg
http://www.swspeed.com/matt/morgan/5.jpg
http://www.swspeed.com/matt/morgan/1.jpg

[MattSEG]

http://www.swspeed.com/matt/morgan/10.jpg
http://www.swspeed.com/matt/morgan/11.jpg

[Moppie]

This shot made me shudder!

http://www.swspeed.com/matt/morgan/4.jpg


VERY effective!
Its a perfect example of why Iv never liked useing flash in these sort of situations. The one below it, same shot, but with flash, has absolutly no sense of atmostphere.
However the long exposure one I feel captures a mood, its just a shame theres a slight shadow over her shoulder.



And don't worry about the revulsion shown by some, people have been hanging them selves by hooks and sticking things in odd parts of thier bodys for far longer than there have been cameras.
The fact that it's made its way into a small part of western culture is proof that its not as closed minded as some people think it is.


Its also hard taking photos of things that are personal to you, and then trying to critique them for pure technical and artistic merit.
Your own feelings about the content and your own memories of the event will always get in the way.
Unforunatly many that you may feel are special are to others nothing more than snapshots. The ones of your friend lying on the table for example have that feel to them.

However the one above certialy has some photographic merit, even if it only effected one person, it has touched someone.

[Nolz]

Very cool! im a member of a motorcycle community (online) also and a member there also is into a similar thing. Not something i'd ever do myself but it certainly is interesting to see. Those that are so willing to criticise anything which they see as being "out of the norm" should really learn to open their minds. The world is alot bigger than what you think you know! deal with it!

[Nolz]

and yes i was expecting to see some car photo's hahaha, some wishbones double A arms or perhaps trailing arms etc .... :P

[seadog]

Its very whicked. I personally wouldn't try it. I am not into the piercing scene, suspension or otherwise. There are alot of women in jersey that have enough silver in their face to drop a werewolf, and crotches that look like modern art masterpieces. I guess thats really for another forum. Everyone has their "thing". Nice pics. I think you did fine with the lighting. Adds a sort of mystifying feel to it.

[MattSEG]

Thanks for the good words guys.

...it's funny about suspension vs suspension thing since I'm normally a big car guy.

[Curos]

Great shots, i think you did an excellent job with the atmosphere.

Regarding earlier posts... I'm not into this sort of stuff myself, i have a friend whos has piercings, i dont think less of him for it. It's another form of self expression. I use photography as my form of self expression, and I've found it increasingly difficult to "capture my emotions" as i, like MattSEG, don't particularly like flower/lanscape shots as much as others. Not to say i dont enjoy them, i take them myself for practice. But i would much rather be photographing people on the streets. Ramble, ramble, ramble...i'll be quiet now. Good work Matt.

[MattSEG]

Thanks boss

[JLS Photo]

Matt -

Firstly, those pictures really creeped me out. I can't understand how someone can do that to themselves.

HOWEVER, since this is a critique of the photos, I have to say that you did something right! As you can see from the responses above, you have moved people--either good or bad--you've moved them. The pictures capture a lot of the feel (no pun intended) or rather the atmosphere of the situation.

That being said, to make the point and help described what is going on (which you needed to do in words above), I think it would have been better to have a shot where her feet are shown off the floor. You focus a lot on the punctures and miss the 'event' a bit (i.e. the raising and suspension).

I have to say, I didn't even know this practice existed.

[MattSEG]

Thanks man..good point.

she was only off the ground for about 10 seconds.
http://www.swspeed.com/matt/morgan/9.jpg
was the only one I got of it.

[JLS Photo]

That one is pretty good, however, an even better perspective might have been from a kneeling position angled up--this would show more 'air' under the feet and give the viewer the sense that she is truly 'suspended'.

...

Boy, my back hurts everytime I open this thread. ;)

[Leighow]

Well I would like to be open minded about this post, but I find it extremely offensive. It would be simple to accept these images as "different strokes for different folks" . But this has gone too far !

In fact, I am going to recommend to the moderator that a vote be taken to delete this post. If members vote to retain the post, I for one will abandon my membership.
. Furthermore, I am going to encourage Peeka and our Moderators to define a set out a code of content ethics to ensure that unsavoury posts never arrive on this forum.

One member has suggested that "Those that are so willing to criticise anything which they see as being out of the norm" should really learn to open their minds. The world is a lot bigger than what you think you know! deal with it! " In response I would like to first suggest that I do have a reasonably open mind. Secondly, I am quite aware that the world is a very complex place, and that America im particular and the rest of us in general all learning to "deal with it" -- some more than others. My view is that members who wish to sanction such a range of yet-to-be-defined things that are "out of the norm" ought to start their own board. For starters, I want Pekka to eliminate this post and then look for ways to stop these kinds of posts in the future.

This has been, and continues to be, a wonderful world for me. At the same time, I am well aware that its has been and continues to be a disaster for many. I try to post our worlds wonders on this board and leave the disasters to trained professionals.

[timmyquest]

Shock factor.......8

Photo Quality......2

Stupidity.......Priceless.

Photo quality.....2

You forgot to finish, the second photo is awesome...You guys are all getting off track here, no one asked for opinions of whats happening in the photos, he posted photos in a critique forum on a photography message board. Put two and two together :roll:

The first shot is kind of boring, as is the last, but the 2nd one is fantastic. The color sets the mood, the content, even so much as her bra strap and how it just somehow fits with the scene, i love it.

Well I would like to be open minded about this post, but I find it extremely offensive. It would be simple to accept these images as "different strokes for different folks" . But this has gone too far !

In fact, I am going to recommend to the moderator that a vote be taken to delete this post. If members vote to retain the post, I for one will abandon my membership.
. Furthermore, I am going to encourage Peeka and our Moderators to define a set out a code of content ethics to ensure that unsavoury posts never arrive on this forum.

One member has suggested that "Those that are so willing to criticise anything which they see as being out of the norm" should really learn to open their minds. The world is a lot bigger than what you think you know! deal with it! " In response I would like to first suggest that I do have a reasonably open mind. Secondly, I am quite aware that the world is a very complex place, and that America im particular and the rest of us in general all learning to "deal with it" -- some more than others. My view is that members who wish to sanction such a range of yet-to-be-defined things that are "out of the norm" ought to start their own board. For starters, I want Pekka to eliminate this post and then look for ways to stop these kinds of posts in the future.

This has been, and continues to be, a wonderful world for me. At the same time, I am well aware that its has been and continues to be a disaster for many. I try to post our worlds wonders on this board and leave the disasters to trained professionals.


WARNING: graphic piercing images

:roll:


This shot made me shudder!

http://www.swspeed.com/matt/morgan/4.jpg


VERY effective!
Its a perfect example of why Iv never liked useing flash in these sort of situations. The one below it, same shot, but with flash, has absolutly no sense of atmostphere.
However the long exposure one I feel captures a mood, its just a shame theres a slight shadow over her shoulder.



And don't worry about the revulsion shown by some, people have been hanging them selves by hooks and sticking things in odd parts of thier bodys for far longer than there have been cameras.
The fact that it's made its way into a small part of western culture is proof that its not as closed minded as some people think it is.


Its also hard taking photos of things that are personal to you, and then trying to critique them for pure technical and artistic merit.
Your own feelings about the content and your own memories of the event will always get in the way.
Unforunatly many that you may feel are special are to others nothing more than snapshots. The ones of your friend lying on the table for example have that feel to them.

However the one above certialy has some photographic merit, even if it only effected one person, it has touched someone.

What he said, i agree 100% with all of it.

[timmyquest]

2nd

[Radtech1]

In fact, I am going to recommend to the moderator that a vote be taken to delete this post. If members vote to retain the post, I for one will abandon my membership.

Where can we vote?

Furthermore, I am going to encourage Peeka and our Moderators to define a set out a code of content ethics to ensure that unsavoury posts never arrive on this forum.
My view is that members who wish to sanction such a range of yet-to-be-defined things that are "out of the norm" ought to start their own board. For starters, I want Pekka to eliminate this post and then look for ways to stop these kinds of posts in the future.


http://www.stickergiant.com/Merchant2/imgs/450/y9602_450.jpeg

[ron chappel]

Hmmm
All looks pretty pointless to me :?

[cityboy_ca]

So many views - so much anger!

This is not a subject I'm comfortable with and is something I will, in future, avoid seeing. Having said that, I think the warning on the post's title serves this forum well. I don't know if it's a rule or just a convention, but most images that may cause concern for others always seem to carry some sort of warning (most nudes, for example). Surely this is all that we require.

I would hate to see someone censored just because I don’t appreciate the subject. MattSEG has shown us a world we aren’t familiar with or, perhaps, aware of, and has put his images of this world forward for review. Let’s remember that it’s the images that we are reviewing, not necessarily the subject. We’d never criticize a child’s portrait because the kid’s ugly – let’s offer the same courtesy here.

Of the pictures you offer here, I’d have to say that the one with the kitten backdrop affected me on a whole different level than the others. The piercing and suspension just upset me, but the young lady recovering (?) on the table with the big-eyed kittens looking made an incongruous image that was completely disturbing and, to me, frightening.

MattSEG – if this is the subject that fascinates you, you should continue to record it. But please also continue to add a warning to your post’s so that those who don’t appreciate it can avoid it.

[BearSummer]

Well I would like to be open minded about this post, but I find it extremely offensive. It would be simple to accept these images as "different strokes for different folks" . But this has gone too far !

In fact, I am going to recommend to the moderator that a vote be taken to delete this post. If members vote to retain the post, I for one will abandon my membership.
. Furthermore, I am going to encourage Peeka and our Moderators to define a set out a code of content ethics to ensure that unsavoury posts never arrive on this forum.

SNIP.

So you would like to be open minded about the post, but to hell with it you didn't like the subject so you arent going to be.

So now we have to vote to see if you stay or go, hmmm, do we want someone on here who isn't openminded and cant read warnings on posts..

Ahhh onwards into censorship. As far as i can see you had plenty of warning and didn't have to view it unless you wanted to. Could you please supply a full list of what is and isn't "unsavoury".

Please select which of the following is and isn't unsavoury
1, Its a guy not a girl getting dangled
2, The photograph was taken just below the hooks so you can see the blood but not the hooks
3, waist downwards only, feet off floor

Personally I think your suggestion is unworkable and the warning from the poster should be enough.

Best regards

BearSummer

[CyberDyneSystems]

There will be no vote on this thread sanctioned by the forum.

As for the establishment of content rules, they exist and they can be found by clicking links. They are quite open, and they were established long ago. Further more the last vote on the subject, which can be found in the depths of this forum, supported the guidelines as they stand.

The content of this thread in no way violates any rules or guidelines of the forum.

The poster of the images has done so within guidelines and posted a "WARNING" in ALL CAPS that anyone who did not with to see such images could have heeded.

It does not matter that I or anyone might not care for these images.
If we banned all image that someone might take offense to, despite a WARNING,. then we would lose a lot of content. Spiders, Snakes, etc.. personally,. I'd like to do away with any images of S.U.V.s... (no I'm not joking)

"Share" and "Critique" are here for member's artistic expression.

I would advise that any member who does not wish to see images of graphic content heed the warnings posted on them.

The warnings are there for this reason.

Lastly,. If you come across a thread that does not contain a warning and feel that one should be in place, please PM a moderator.

Thanks

CDS

[BearSummer]

Hi MattSeg,

I would suggest that as this is probably only going to be a "one time only" shoot that you should check the lighting first. Ask your model to visit the "studio" before hand and check the lighting. Beg, borrow or steal some studio lights with either soft white brollies or big softboxes. This will allow you to use a faster shutter speed and not suffer from model movement, camera shake and colour cast.

I don't particluary care for the subject but you have obviously provoked a lot of comment. This doesn't mean it's a good photo, just very contraversial as this type of image is somewhat rare on this site. I would suggest that you work on your lighting (see above) which would improve your image sharpness. I would also suggest that you check your backgrounds as they are very cluttered and somewhat distracting, may be worth asking if you can "change" the background. If possible I would also have asked the lady to remove her bra as the straps around her arms look very strange.

Best regards

BearSummer

[Pekka]

Well I would like to be open minded about this post, but I find it extremely offensive. It would be simple to accept these images as "different strokes for different folks" . But this has gone too far !

In fact, I am going to recommend to the moderator that a vote be taken to delete this post. If members vote to retain the post, I for one will abandon my membership.
. Furthermore, I am going to encourage Peeka and our Moderators to define a set out a code of content ethics to ensure that unsavoury posts never arrive on this forum.

One member has suggested that "Those that are so willing to criticise anything which they see as being out of the norm" should really learn to open their minds. The world is a lot bigger than what you think you know! deal with it! " In response I would like to first suggest that I do have a reasonably open mind. Secondly, I am quite aware that the world is a very complex place, and that America im particular and the rest of us in general all learning to "deal with it" -- some more than others. My view is that members who wish to sanction such a range of yet-to-be-defined things that are "out of the norm" ought to start their own board. For starters, I want Pekka to eliminate this post and then look for ways to stop these kinds of posts in the future.

This has been, and continues to be, a wonderful world for me. At the same time, I am well aware that its has been and continues to be a disaster for many. I try to post our worlds wonders on this board and leave the disasters to trained professionals.

If there is a warning then you should not open the post if you suspect you would be offended or shocked by the content.

If someone posts all the time without content warning then we have the usual PM channels and in the end ban to deal with that.

We have the rule:

You agree, through your use of the Forums, that you will not post any material or links to any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, libelous, inaccurate, rude, racist, disrespectful, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, threatening, obscene, profane, pornographic, racially or ethnically offensive, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law.

People always have different ideas what is vulgar, hateful, harassing, threatening or obscene, but I would say that if it belongs to our culture (or subculture) and is legal and on topic then it is ok.

So, I'd say warning on a title should be enough.

[MattSEG]

In all honesty a moderator added the warning, and while i didn't think of it when I posted the thread it was a good thing.

I don't see it as anything other than perhaps a little shocking, I didn't think my life was so far out of the social norms. Stuff like this is more part of my life than seeing mountain brooks or the like, and as such I took a photo of it and shared it.

This is no more shocking on the senses than opening up a national geographic magazine, it's a factual look at how others live. It is not profane, illegal, slanderous or the like. It's life.

My intention was only to share images of an experience in a friends life, and also in mine. I wasn't going for controversy or shock, just documentation.


as for the photo itself, it wasn't setup, I hadn't been there before, and my goal was only to get an image of what was going on. I wasn't about to pose people or change the surroundings, only to capture the moment in the best, most artistic way I could. Personally I feel I succeeded in that.

I like street photography and the documentary style. It captures life as it's lived, to alter the content would be to represent it as something other than how it was. While I understand some like studio photography, it's just not my thing, and I did the best with my skill and what I had at my disposal. had I thought about it I would have brought some lights, but unfortunately I didn't.

[Conk]

What do I think? That think that the images are pointless. It just confirms the lengths some idiots will go to for a shock factor. These people are lacking something in life to go to these lengths.
Posting images like these are as pointless as posting a toilet full of feces. Some sick minds would see that as art too. Would it be ok for me to take those type of images and post it as long as I put a warning in the thread title?
I don't like the images whatsoever but as it has been said, I chose to look. I have in fact seen worse posted here.
I'm sorry that Howie was so shocked that he decided to leave the forum. I've come to know Howie over the last couple years and have come to respect his views and opinions. I will continue to have a cyber relationship with him as I am proud to call him a Friend. I don't think people should be slamming Howie for having his views any more than Howie should be slamming anyone else for having theirs. So people, lighten up!

[Radtech1]

So people, lighten up!

Take your own advice! :evil:

As one who actually liked many of the shots - and I will be the first to say that some were better than others - I find it difficult to keep from taking your haranguing somewhat personal. Phrases like "some idiots" and "sick minds" show that you to be incapable of discussing the photos without an attack on the one who created them, and those of us who appreciated them.

Your analogy to a toilet shows you having a very narrow world view. In a very real way I feel sorry for you, to live in a world that is so big, and then to have such a small mind.

But even if you don't like them, why did you dig up a 2 week old thread without anything intelligent to say. That is grandstanding, plain and simple. Just like to hear the sound of your own voice a bit too much, huh? Conk, a flame can do two things - bring light, or bring heat. It is clear that your point is to only generate heat, without shedding any light. You would do well to learn that lesson.

http://www.stickergiant.com/Merchant2/imgs/450/y9602_450.jpeg

[lucasdigital]

Thanks man..good point.

she was only off the ground for about 10 seconds.
was the only one I got of it.

Personally a prefer a strong mug of coffee for my kicks.
Some people get "stimulation" from pain, personally I bitch all day long if I get a paper cut.

I understand this practice has ancient and mystical significance in the east, being the practice of those Fakir guys who lay on beds of nails.

On the subject of the photographs, I think the first one is very impactful. I'm not going to hang around for any more though
:P

[JK]

Whoa, funky!

Graphic, yes... but I think a forum needs a visual "wake-up call" like that every now and then, otherwise it just tends to get overrun with images of puppies, butterflies and landscapes and we'll all turn into comatose, boring photographic lemmings!

The interesting thing is that it probably wouldn't have mattered if you had the latest L series lens or a cheapie one for this shoot - what mattered was the subject and they way you conveyed the feeling/atmosphere. Just true, honest photography of the human condition!

[Belmondo]

This thread has been kicking around for quite a while, and the reaction is understandably mixed. The decision to let it stay was made shortly after it first appeared.

The appropriate way to deal with questionable images is to put a warning in the title, and that was eventually done in this case. After that, it's really up to the viewer to decide if he/she wants to go beyond the title. Sometimes curiosity compels us, but at least we've been warned.

This is not to say that there exist's an implied license to post material purely for the sake of obscenity and/or shock value. Anything that's gratuitously graphic will be deleted out of hand.

If you ever have doubts or questions, PM a moderator.

[Conk]

So people, lighten up!

Take your own advice! :evil:

As one who actually liked many of the shots - and I will be the first to say that some were better than others - I find it difficult to keep from taking your haranguing somewhat personal. Phrases like "some idiots" and "sick minds" show that you to be incapable of discussing the photos without an attack on the one who created them, and those of us who appreciated them.

Your analogy to a toilet shows you having a very narrow world view. In a very real way I feel sorry for you, to live in a world that is so big, and then to have such a small mind.

But even if you don't like them, why did you dig up a 2 week old thread without anything intelligent to say. That is grandstanding, plain and simple. Just like to hear the sound of your own voice a bit too much, huh? Conk, a flame can do two things - bring light, or bring heat. It is clear that your point is to only generate heat, without shedding any light. You would do well to learn that lesson.



My reference to idiots and sick minds were to the people actually performing the acts and not the poster or photographer. As for digging up a 2 week old thread, I had no idea it was that old as I merely did a search after being informed about it from another poster.
A case of contempt prior to investigation. Unfortunately this forum has just lost another long time member as I cannot and will not put up with personal attacks from other members. Respond as you will. I will not be reading the replies. Unless I am convinced to do otherwise by forum Mods or Pekka himself, I will not be returning. This is my last post.