20D extreme sharpening - 5 pics 180KB

[Scottes]

This thread is being perceived the wrong way.

This is not a thread showing the sharpness or softness of the 20D! This was spurred by someone mentioning how much "over-sharpening" can be applied to a 20D image. If I did this stuff to a 10D it would look like it was over-sharpened. I purposefully chose soft images for this, and sharpened the hell out of them. They held up, and the detail pulled is pretty darn good.


The original picture of the plane is soft but not too bad. It was handheld at 1/250! Rule of thumb says that the shutter should have been 3 times faster! OF COURSE IT'S SOFT!! This could be an indication of AI Focus not switching to AI Servo, or an indication of the 20Ds focus not being as good as a MkII's. Or it could just be that it was handheld at 1/250!! On the duck you can see that I missed the focus point on shutter release. That's a damned small bird quite far way and flying, well, like a duck. And I missed the focus point. OF COURSE IT'S SOFT!!


100% Crop, 400 Prime + 1.4 TC + Manual Focus: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=43301


Now back to the original thread:


20D with Canon 400mm f/5.6 L, shot RAW, handheld, f/5.6, 1/250, ISO 100, 100% Crop
Processed in EVU, Contrast Mid-high, Saturation Mid-High, Sharpening Off

http://www.itsanadventure.com/postimages/1480_Original.jpg


Cropped in PS CS and sharpening applied, nothing else.
USM 253%, Radius 1.4, Threshold 0 - applied with an edge mask.

http://www.itsanadventure.com/postimages/1480_USM_253_14_0.jpg

Cropped in PS CS and sharpening applied, nothing else.
Fred Miranda's Intellisharpen II, Level 100, Sharpen Fine 100, Normal Halo

http://www.itsanadventure.com/postimages/1480_Intellisharpen-II.jpg


20D with Canon 400mm f/5.6 L, shot RAW, handheld, f/5.6, 1/1250, ISO 200, 100% Crop
Processed in EVU, Contrast Mid-high, Saturation Mid-High, Sharpening Off

Cropped in PS CS, nothing else.
http://www.itsanadventure.com/postimages/1489_Original.jpg

Fred Miranda's Intellisharpen II, Level 100, Sharpen Fine 100, Normal Halo
http://www.itsanadventure.com/postimages/1489_Intellisharpen-II.jpg


I would not usually think of sharpening to this extreme, but the images handled this level. The Fred Miranda plugin could have even gone higher without artifacts and stuff.

The FM plugin certainly brought the duck out. USM was not nearly as good.

[CyberDyneSystems]

yeah.. but.. why is the duck so soft in the first place?.. this is the question now isn't it.

I have yet to even convert a 20D file (I know... I got a pile of e from the weekend)

But it HAS to do better than the above images? Doesn't it?

[tofuboy]

I don't have a 20D myself, but I'd like to think it can take pictures that don't look like they're out of focus without any sharpening done to them...

[Scottes]

yeah.. but.. why is the duck so soft in the first place?.. this is the question now isn't it.

I have to agree. But remember - this is handheld and ducks fly like little madmen. This is a 100% crop. It's small.

Oh, and I didn't hit it with the focus point:

http://www.itsanadventure.com/postimages/1489_FocusPoints.jpg

How far can a duck fly during the shutter lag of a 20D?


The point here is more about the amount of sharpening that can be applied. Don't be afraid to do so. The plane is sharp enough - if I had shot JPG with in-camera processing it's be damn fine.

And considering the size of the duck in the original...

[blinking8s]

how does sharpening so much effect prints?

[pcasciola]

I find I have to sharpen everything too for the best results. Nothing too drastic, just a basic sharpen filter in photoshop (not USM).

A little more subtle than the duck photos, but very soft out of the 20D nonetheless.

http://www.casciola.com/pics/football3.jpg
Canon 20D, 1/2000s F/10 @50mm, 1 for 1 crop from center of image

http://www.casciola.com/pics/football4.jpg
Canon 20D, 1/2000s F/10 @50mm, 1 for 1 crop from center of image
Basic Photoshop sharpen filter applied

[Spargo]

Scottes, how do you put those focusing points back on the image?

[tommykjensen]

Just tried this too.

Is this sharpened too much?

Fred Miranda's Intellisharpen II, Level 100, Sharpen Fine 50, Normal Halo

Edit: changed imbedded image to link
http://photo.klein-jensen.dk/public/20dsharptest1.jpg

[BDM]

Just tried this too.

Is this sharpened too much?

Fred Miranda's Intellisharpen II, Level 100, Sharpen Fine 50, Normal Halo

Click for correct size.
http://photo.klein-jensen.dk/public/20dsharptest1.jpg

It looks pretty good to me.

Bruce

[SDK^]

Scottes, how do you put those focusing points back on the image?
Open the image in Canon file viewer utility and press the 'Display AF points' button on the tool bar.

[Scottes]

Tommy,

I think just a little. Like bringing the main level down to 90 or 85.

How do you like that Intellisharpen II? I love it. Best $25 I've spent on software in a long, long time.

[tommykjensen]

I will try that when I get back home.

I haven't used the Intellisharpen II a lot yet, but it looks like I need to with 20D.

[scottbergerphoto]

Scottes,
I hate to be a downer :( , but compared to your previous work, those pictures are nowhere near as good. Even with the sharpening action, they just don't look right. I use the 400 f/5.6 hand held on my 10D and Mark II. It is capable of much better. I was going to buy a 20D to replace my 10D, but after the results I've seen so far on the web and the reported lock up problems, I'm going to wait this one out. I hope this is something that can be resolved with a firmware update.
Regards,
Scott

[Scottes]

Thanks Scott. But remember a couple of things here: These are 100% crops, and you've never seen me post a 100% - at least as "art."

Take a look at this shot: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=43301
100% using the 400 Prime *and* a 1.4 TC *and* manual focus. Yes, I sharpened, but nothing like the above. I think I used Intellisharpen II at level 50 fine detail 40. Much, much different than above. (Look at her feet.) And realize that she's 630x430 pixels. That 0.27 megapixels out of a 8.2 megapixel image. And it looks good.


Please Note: This is not a thread showing the sharpness or softness of the 20D! This was spurred by someone mentioning how much "over-sharpening" can be applied to a 20D image. If I did this stuff to a 10D it would look like it was over-sharpened. I purposefully chose soft images for this, and sharpened the hell out of them. They held up, and the detail pulled is pretty darn good.


The original picture of the plane is soft but not too bad. It was handheld at 1/250! Rule of thumb says that the shutter should have been 3 times faster! OF COURSE IT'S SOFT!! This could be an indication of AI Focus not switching to AI Servo, or an indication of the 20Ds focus not being as good as a MkII's. Or it could just be that it was handheld at 1/250!! On the duck you can see that I missed the focus point on shutter release. That's a damned small bird quite far way and flying, well, like a duck. And I missed the focus point. OF COURSE IT'S SOFT!!

[PacAce]

yeah.. but.. why is the duck so soft in the first place?.. this is the question now isn't it.

I have yet to even convert a 20D file (I know... I got a pile of e from the weekend)

But it HAS to do better than the above images? Doesn't it?

Let's see... 400 f/5.6 lens (no IS) handheld at 1/250.. hmmm, why wouldn't it be "soft" in the first place? :mrgreen:

[scottbergerphoto]

yeah.. but.. why is the duck so soft in the first place?.. this is the question now isn't it.

I have yet to even convert a 20D file (I know... I got a pile of e from the weekend)

But it HAS to do better than the above images? Doesn't it?

Let's see... 400 f/5.6 lens (no IS) handheld at 1/250.. hmmm, why wouldn't it be "soft" in the first place? :mrgreen:

Canon 400 f/5.6, 1D Mark II, hand held:

http://www.pbase.com/scottbergerphoto/image/30892167.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/scottbergerphoto/image/30892156.jpg

Regards,
Scott

[Scottes]

Canon 400 f/5.6, 1D Mark II, hand held:

I've got nice handheld shots from the 400, too, Scott.

Those pics alone prove nothing. Show me one this crisp at 1/250 and a 100% crop.

And, by the way, the second one is still a touch soft. Edit: Glad to see you got rid of that soft example.

[scottbergerphoto]

Canon 400 f/5.6, 1D Mark II, hand held:

Those pics alone prove nothing.

They prove that the 20D won't be replacing the Mark II any time soon, in spite of what many have opined. At least to my eyes that is.

By the way, no need to shout. My hearing is fine.
Scott

[Scottes]

You may be able to hear me, but your comments prove that you aren't listening.

You're jumping on the softness of 20D images when I'm telling you that I purposefully choose soft images. And then you opine on the 20D not being as sharp as the MkII. And then you post images sharp MkII images and think that proves something. It proves you weren't listening.

[JLS Photo]

Canon 400 f/5.6, 1D Mark II, hand held:

Scott, are those really at 1/250th? I've photographed RC planes before and my experience was that 1/250th could not freeze the prop like it did in your second shot (and I'd expect some motion blur on the first shot).

I'm not suggesting your lying, but I'm truly curious as to the shutter speed. The EXIF info wasn't on your site.

[scottbergerphoto]

Canon 400 f/5.6, 1D Mark II, hand held:

Scott, are those really at 1/250th? I've photographed RC planes before and my experience was that 1/250th could not freeze the prop like it did in your second shot (and I'd expect some motion blur on the first shot).

I'm not suggesting your lying, but I'm truly curious as to the shutter speed. The EXIF info wasn't on your site.
1/250th? Hell no! Minimum 1/2000. Sorry for the confusion. :twisted:

Scottes, as to your post above, I have looked at many if not most of the posts of the 20D on the web. I had hoped to get one to replace my 10D as back up. I'm sorry to say that most of the posted images look too soft or over sharpened. I'm not a PS whiz. I need workable shots out of the camera that I can spruce up with levels/curves, h/s, usm. If it works for you and you get results that you like, great. Enjoy your new camera.
Nothing personal but I'll wait this one out before I get a 20D
Scott

[PacAce]

yeah.. but.. why is the duck so soft in the first place?.. this is the question now isn't it.

I have yet to even convert a 20D file (I know... I got a pile of e from the weekend)

But it HAS to do better than the above images? Doesn't it?

Let's see... 400 f/5.6 lens (no IS) handheld at 1/250.. hmmm, why wouldn't it be "soft" in the first place? :mrgreen:

Canon 400 f/5.6, 1D Mark II, hand held:

http://www.pbase.com/scottbergerphoto/image/30892167.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/scottbergerphoto/image/30892156.jpg

Regards,
Scott

Scott, were your pictures taken at 1/250, too? I'm already impressed that they're so sharp but I'd really be very impressed if they were taken at a low shutter speed. :D

Oops! I guess I should have read all the way to the end before posting. :oops:

[Cadwell]

Just tried this too.

Is this sharpened too much?

Fred Miranda's Intellisharpen II, Level 100, Sharpen Fine 50, Normal Halo

Edit: changed imbedded image to link
http://photo.klein-jensen.dk/public/20dsharptest1.jpg

I would say it's over-sharpened - the eye shows it particularly badly. Of course, sharpening is a matter of taste to a certain extent.

[tommykjensen]

I would say it's over-sharpened - the eye shows it particularly badly. Of course, sharpening is a matter of taste to a certain extent.

Yeah I see that, this one I changed main level to 30
http://photo.klein-jensen.dk/public/20dsharptest2.jpg

[Cadwell]

Yeah I see that, this one I changed main level to 30
http://photo.klein-jensen.dk/public/20dsharptest2.jpg

That looks better to me :)

[roanjohn]

This just shows how much a 20D image can tolerate post-processing. I must say its pretty impressive. It's also impressive how it retains all those details.............

As previously stated, the 20D parameter 2 is more conservative than the 10D..........so if you're not happy with it, bump it up to parameter 1. Or go +1 on sharpness...........

:-)

I, for one, am very happy with the images that comes out of my 20D.

Ro1

[CyberDyneSystems]

I feel like it was me that through the course of this thread off.. :(

... sorry If I misinterptreted the original intentions of the thread.

[slejhamer]

The duck image in particular makes me want to purchase Intellisharpen II.

Good examples, Scottes, both of the quality of the software and of whatever else it was you were trying to demonstrate ... :wink:

[Scottes]

The duck image in particular makes me want to purchase Intellisharpen II.

As I said, buying this was the best $25 I've spent on software in a very long time.

[Morden]

I just got it today. :)

I'll have to have a good play with the settings.

[Scottes]

When it's done right:

100% Crop, RAW, no processing of any kind.

The keys: The focus point is on the plane, and the shutter was 1/1000. This makes a bit of difference. If this plane was doing 130mph then it moved 6 inches in 1/1000 of a second - that's about the width of one of the lines in the "N" - so I'm sure that 1/2000 would look even better, and at 1/8000....

http://www.itsanadventure.com/postimages/Plane_51485.jpg


So I say that if you think the 20D is soft then you did something wrong.