Going back to the gym - start me over from scratch

[flute4peace]

I'm going back to the gym this afternoon. I'm SO frustrated with what I've accomplished thus far (or lack thereof:rolleyes:), that I want to just completely start over. So...when you first go into a small-town, poorly lit gym, what is your process. Talk me through from start to finish - metering, setting, positioning, etc. My available equipment is:

XTi
50mm f1.8
17-85 f4-5.6 IS
Sigma DG500 Super
Handheld spotmeter


I've got the 85 f1.8 on it's way but it won't be here till later in the week.

Thank you soooo much!:oops:

[TitusvilleSurfer]

This interests me but I've never shot in a gym, so I can't help. Here's a free bump though

[flute4peace]

Thanks for the bump! I need it. My attempt last night was another utter and complete failure.:cry:

Maybe more info would help. The upper walls are a drab gray color with hotspots, the lower walls are brown bleachers, and the lights apparently cycle so the lighting is spotty.

And all I have to work with right now (in there) is an XTi and a 50 1.8 that just hunts and hunts. I just don't think it's gonna happen for me in there. Maybe with an 85?

[Triptoph]

Perhaps you'll get more help if you post some samples of your attempts complete with EXIF data.

[fugfuggy]

I don't know what sport you are shooting but nothing is more difficult than gymnastics. Read through this thread. It covers every aspect of shooting in a gym.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=292894

[flute4peace]

Perhaps you'll get more help if you post some samples of your attempts complete with EXIF data.
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=419983

Here's a link to my first attempt. Last night I didn't overexpose as much but they're still splotchy and honestly the exposures look worse. That's kind of why I was wanted to just "start over" from scratch, obviously my "process" isn't working.;)

fuggy, thanks for the link. I'm off to read it now...

[fugfuggy]

well, you got some good advice from your first post but I will echo a couple of things and suggest a couple others.

The WB issue: most of the time you will be shooting under cycling lighting in the gym i.e. florescent lights that cycle and cast a color on your image, so setting a custom WB will not help you due to inconsistent lighting. Shoot in raw and adjust in PP. Just about every raw converter out there makes this very easy to do.

exposure: This is THE most important issue. Do not listen to those that tell you to underexpose and fix in post. Expose properly in the gym for best results. If you underexpose, especially at higher iso values, you will get so much noise that it can be unmanageable. Shooting in Av will help in this regard because you will always have the proper SS; however, it may be under the desired minimum of 1/250, hence motion blur. I prefer to shoot in manual mode and control all aspects of exposure.

50mm f 1.8 can yield good results but it is a bit softer and slower than the suggested 85mm. The f 2.8 lens is good in the right environment but you will lose some valuable shutter speed and that is what should dictate which lens you will use for each session. If you can get the 1/250 with an f 2.8 then by all means use it. If not, strap on the 85mm. If you have good access, strap on the 50mm.

Here is a link to pictures taken with the 50mm f 1.8:

http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/thumbpage.aspx?e=3383860


Get there early and take enough test shots to make sure you are dialed in on all of your settings before the action begins.

READ the gymnastics thread that I posted. It covers ALL aspects of indoor shooting in the worst possible environment, no flash, poor lighting, fast action, high ISO. What could be worse than that :P

[Curtis N]

all I have to work with right now (in there) is an XTi and a 50 1.8 that just hunts and hunts.Unfortunately, the only cures to that frustration are a) more expensive gear, or b) better light.

[flute4peace]

Ok, here are some from last night. Again, I shudder to post them. They're awful and I know it but feel like I have no choice. The first two are prior to my AWB. They're awfully pink. ISO was 800, F2.0, one was ss of 1/200 and the other was 1/250. And they look way dark to me, but the shots on my first attempt were blown so I tried to adjust for that.
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd29/nikkif4p/IMG_6527.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd29/nikkif4p/IMG_6528.jpg
And these were after my attempt at an AWB. Aren't they horribly blue?? And, they're all shot at the same settings: ISO 1600, f2.5, ss1/250. Notice the fluctuation in exposure here? What's a girl to do? And the hotspots and drab gray on the walls, well that's what it actually looks like IRL.
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd29/nikkif4p/IMG_6535.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd29/nikkif4p/IMG_6534.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd29/nikkif4p/IMG_6533.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd29/nikkif4p/IMG_6532.jpg
You'll also notice that none are near in focus. These are all SOOC (except converted from RAW) and shot in M.

So...am I still overexposing? Underexposing now? Settings aren't all that much different from the first attempt, and those were way blown.:~(

[Curtis N]

Unfortunately you have barely enough light to shoot B-ball with that equipment. I think I would start at ISO 1600 with the lens wide-open and pray for a reasonable shutter speed.

The white balance of those lights changes continually through each cycle, so every shot will be different. Shoot RAW and adjust each individually in post. Start with the eyedropper and click on something white or grey like the backboard, a wall or a white shirt, then tweak from there.

[flute4peace]

Unfortunately you have barely enough light to shoot B-ball with that equipment. I think I would start at ISO 1600 with the lens wide-open and pray for a reasonable shutter speed.

The white balance of those lights changes continually through each cycle, so every shot will be different. Shoot RAW and adjust each individually in post. Start with the eyedropper and click on something white or grey like the backboard, a wall or a white shirt, then tweak from there.

So...what's my next step? Wait for the 85 and try again? Or try to add flash to the mix again? (that's also been a disaster).

This is really kickin' my butt. It does help, however, to hear you say that the lighting isn't good. Makes me feel like it's maybe not *all* my inexperience.

I have talked to two people who have shot successfully in this gym. One uses a 20D and 70-200 f2.8L IS. The other shoots Nikon and all they would tell me was they use "their regular lenses and flash guns". The Nikon girl is the newspaper girl and she gets some good clear shots but they're all B/W in the paper so I have no idea what they really look like.

[bwolford]

Are you shooting raw or JPG?

Looks like you are at ISO 1600 F/2.5 with your 50MM lens. Many at 1/250. Maybe I misread the exif.

That gym must really be dark. You don't have Image Edit on or I'd play with coming up with a work flow to try and help compensate, but as Curtis indicates you may be at the far reaches of your equipment.

My 50mm F/1.8 hunts like a drunk dog in low light. Results are never predictable and I usually get better results out of my 70-200 F/2.8 lens, even at F/2.8.

[fugfuggy]

If you can't get the exposure right with the 50mm then the 85mm will not help. It will only help with a faster focus and sharper image. There is no reason that you should not be able to dial in the correct exposure with the gear that you have. I don't know your camera but I am sure that it either has a live histogram or an exposure meter, right? Did you read the other thread that I suggested?

[flute4peace]

Are you shooting raw or JPG?

Looks like you are at ISO 1600 F/2.5 with your 50MM lens. Many at 1/250. Maybe I misread the exif.

That gym must really be dark. You don't have Image Edit on or I'd play with coming up with a work flow to try and help compensate, but as Curtis indicates you may be at the far reaches of your equipment.

My 50mm F/1.8 hunts like a drunk dog in low light. Results are never predictable and I usually get better results out of my 70-200 F/2.8 lens, even at F/2.8.
Yes those are the correct settings, and yes I think I am pushing the limits of what I've got. I am shooting in RAW. I will figure out how to turn on image editing and would be happy to see what can be done with these. I appreciate your offer!

I'm curious what you all think of the focus issues. I feel that I have a combined problem of exposure, poor focus, and WB issues. I'm hoping that the 85 with a USM will improve the focus, and learning more about PP in RAW will help with WB, and just gaining more experience will help with exposure. At least, that's my plan. Any thoughts?

[Triptoph]

For the exposure issue, maybe you could play around with your settings using Aperture-priority mode or whatever you like to use, check the histogram, adjust, and when it looks right, dial those settings into manual mode so they dont keep changing... the lighting should remain constant in a gym setting so this should work i would think.

[flute4peace]

If you can't get the exposure right with the 50mm then the 85mm will not help. It will only help with a faster focus and sharper image. There is no reason that you should not be able to dial in the correct exposure with the gear that you have. I don't know your camera but I am sure that it either has a live histogram or an exposure meter, right? Did you read the other thread that I suggested?
Well that's what I thought, too, which is why I'm so frustrated.:confused: But I also agree that it's pushing the limits of what I've got available at this time, including the experience factor. It does have a histogram viewable after the shot and an exposure meter. I was keeping the needle on that either stright up or at +1/3~+2/3. But when I have the same settings and am sitting in the same spot and the players are in the same spot and the shots are one after another, and the exposure fluctuates as it did above, well that's where I'm stuck.

I'm through the first page of the thread you linked for me (DD keeps kicking me off here to play Hannah Montana:rolleyes:). It's really good and I'm sure will be very beneficial!

[flute4peace]

For the exposure issue, maybe you could play around with your settings using Aperture-priority mode or whatever you like to use, check the histogram, adjust, and when it looks right, dial those settings into manual mode so they dont keep changing... the lighting should remain constant in a gym setting so this should work i would think.
Actually, I did try that in my first practice session - I got frustrated trying to hit it on my own so switched to Av for a while. I had SS all the way from 1/100 to 1/400. It fluctuated widely (there are some Av shots in my first thread on this, linked near the top of this thread). Even the shots I did in M last night where the settings were identical had an obvious fluctuation (see pictures above). But it's definitely something I'm not ruling out yet, either. I'm willing to try most anything at this point and I know you all know what you're talking about here (which is why I'm here!).

I appreciate all of your input VERY much!!!

[fugfuggy]

another question, what metering mode are you in and what are you metering off of? I would recommend spot metering on the face of your subject and also spot focusing.

[flute4peace]

another question, what metering mode are you in and what are you metering off of? I would recommend spot metering on the face of your subject and also spot focusing.
It is set on partial metering and I metered off the light gray t-shirt. My options for metering are partial, center-weighted and evaluative. I have a gray card on it's way to me and will use that when it gets here.

I have the center focus point selected and used the CF 4-1 about half the time and just regular shutter-button focus the other half. All on Servo. The action moved so fast I had a hard time hitting faces with the focus point - especially with the lens hunting so much. It seemed to get a little better after I switched off of * focus (which is odd, usually I do much better with the * during action). Where should I be trying to hit with the focus? Hands aren't possible to hit, are they? Faces I'm having trouble hitting so I'm usually going for upper torsos.

[Mr. Clean]

Metering properly is the 3rd key issue here. Manual is the only way to shoot in a gym in my opinion, the light doesn't change. Grab a grey card and meter off of it, or grab something white and dial in exposure compensation to make up for it.
The white balance is secondary. You're in a situation where you have to post process for a proper white balance. It sucks.
With either of the two issues fixed or not though, there's no action in the action shots. I think that's the primary issue. Even when you're in the crappiest conditions you need to make the best out of what you have. Even if it all ends up being junk, you got the practice! Out of focus or not, white balanced or not, exposed properly or not, regardless - you still need action in an action shot.
Granted the 85mm 1.8 will help with your focus speed, it will not help with exposure, white balance, or capturing the moment.
Good luck though, indoor sports shooting is one of the most challenging things out there.

[flute4peace]

Metering properly is the 3rd key issue here. Manual is the only way to shoot in a gym in my opinion, the light doesn't change. Grab a grey card and meter off of it, or grab something white and dial in exposure compensation to make up for it.
The white balance is secondary. You're in a situation where you have to post process for a proper white balance. It sucks.
With either of the two issues fixed or not though, there's no action in the action shots. I think that's the primary issue. Even when you're in the crappiest conditions you need to make the best out of what you have. Even if it all ends up being junk, you got the practice! Out of focus or not, white balanced or not, exposed properly or not, regardless - you still need action in an action shot.
Granted the 85mm 1.8 will help with your focus speed, it will not help with exposure, white balance, or capturing the moment.
Good luck though, indoor sports shooting is one of the most challenging things out there.
Not meaning to beat a dead horse here, but if the light doesn't change, then how come the above examples are so obviously different when they were taken in the same spot, same settings, one after the other?:confused: Obviously something is changing and/or affecting the end result. So if it's not me changing, and it's not the camera changing, what is it? I hope I don't sound rude, I'm just frustrated and trying to figure this out.:oops: I'm missing a link somewhere. I hate it when that happens.

As for no action in the shots, obviously that's a given;). These shots were strictly for exposure practice and content wasn't a priority. One step at a time for me.

[fugfuggy]

It is set on partial metering and I metered off the light gray t-shirt. My options for metering are partial, center-weighted and evaluative. I have a gray card on it's way to me and will use that when it gets here.

I have the center focus point selected and used the CF 4-1 about half the time and just regular shutter-button focus the other half. All on Servo. The action moved so fast I had a hard time hitting faces with the focus point - especially with the lens hunting so much. It seemed to get a little better after I switched off of * focus (which is odd, usually I do much better with the * during action). Where should I be trying to hit with the focus? Hands aren't possible to hit, are they? Faces I'm having trouble hitting so I'm usually going for upper torsos.


The gray card will help with the proper exposure and as suggested, use exposure compensation to adjust.

Focusing for action shots is a skill acquired through lots and lots of practice. For the moment, go for the body mass and practice hitting the torso consistently. You have some shots where you are focused behind the subject and this practice will help you with that. The downside is the DOF of the f 1.8. You will have some faces that are not tack sharp but it will still be okay. Once you have this method down then you can start moving the focus points around.

The other main issue that Mr. Clean pointed out is that of composition and I agree whole heartedly. First, turn the camera sideways and shoot in portrait. Second, very rarely is a shot worth keeping unless it has got a face in it. Look around POTN for similar subject matter and try and get some ideas. Generally speaking, get the face and get the ball. Practice, Practice, Practice. Share your result with POTN. Obviously there are many here that will help pull you up the steep learning curve that is indoor sports.

[fugfuggy]

Not meaning to beat a dead horse here, but if the light doesn't change, then how come the above examples are so obviously different when they were taken in the same spot, same settings, one after the other?:confused: Obviously something is changing and/or affecting the end result. So if it's not me changing, and it's not the camera changing, what is it? I hope I don't sound rude, I'm just frustrated and trying to figure this out.:oops: I'm missing a link somewhere. I hate it when that happens.

As for no action in the shots, obviously that's a given;). These shots were strictly for exposure practice and content wasn't a priority. One step at a time for me.

You are shooting under fluorescents and that is why the images are different. If you take a burst of 3 pictures you will see that the lights cycle and will cast a different color on each image. One may be perfect, the next orange and the next blue. This is why everybody is telling you that you have to correct this in post because there is nothing you can do to prevent that.

[flute4peace]

The gray card will help with the proper exposure and as suggested, use exposure compensation to adjust.

Focusing for action shots is a skill acquired through lots and lots of practice. For the moment, go for the body mass and practice hitting the torso consistently. You have some shots where you are focused behind the subject and this practice will help you with that. The downside is the DOF of the f 1.8. You will have some faces that are not tack sharp but it will still be okay. Once you have this method down then you can start moving the focus points around.

The other main issue that Mr. Clean pointed out is that of composition and I agree whole heartedly. First, turn the camera sideways and shoot in portrait. Second, very rarely is a shot worth keeping unless it has got a face in it. Look around POTN for similar subject matter and try and get some ideas. Generally speaking, get the face and get the ball. Practice, Practice, Practice. Share your result with POTN. Obviously there are many here that will help pull you up the steep learning curve that is indoor sports.
That really annoys me when that happens! Could it be partly due to the lens hunting? I'm starting to really appreciate helmets and shoulder pads, LOL!! They're a whole lot easier to hit.

[fugfuggy]

no, you just missed the target. Happens to all of us.

[flute4peace]

You are shooting under fluorescents and that is why the images are different. If you take a burst of 3 pictures you will see that the lights cycle and will cast a different color on each image. One may be perfect, the next orange and the next blue. This is why everybody is telling you that you have to correct this in post because there is nothing you can do to prevent that.
So I should expect that I will have a fluctuation in both exposure and WB? Ok, knowing that will help. I have a tendency to want to get it perfect SOOC and maybe I'm not being realistic about this?

I've enabled image editing and would love to see how "salvageable" these are, in terms of exposure and WB.

[flute4peace]

no, you just missed the target. Happens to all of us.
:D:D

[fugfuggy]

Here is a quick adjustment. Not dead on but close. http://images33.fotki.com/v1067/photos/1/1034366/4248078/IMG_6528-vi.jpg

[flute4peace]

Thank you! What all did you do to it? It looks pretty darn close to IRL.

[S.Horton]

This fully explains why you see different WB
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=20873

Other advice here is spot-on here.

[fugfuggy]

this was an auto level adjustment. The reason that you should shoot in raw is that you have access to the WB settings in the raw converter that you use, whatever it is, and it is very easy to fix.

[flute4peace]

This fully explains why you see different WB
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=20873

Other advice here is spot-on here.
Thank you! That is going to be a very valuable link for me!

[flute4peace]

this was an auto level adjustment. The reason that you should shoot in raw is that you have access to the WB settings in the raw converter that you use, whatever it is, and it is very easy to fix.
Definitely shooting in RAW indoors. I have Adobe Camera RAW and DPP. Which do you recommend? For some reason ACR has been corrupting my JPG conversions lately, but I like to use it because it has more options.

Seriously, I really appreciate all of your advice today. I'm feeling more calm now. I was about ready to jump off the basketball cliff last night.:(

[fugfuggy]

I don't use either because I have a dirty little secret. Others that know me in this forum know what it is but I will not reveal it publicly:lol::lol: However, I really do not like ACR but I have heard good things about DPP.

[S.Horton]

@Flute - You're most welcome.

[Mr. Clean]

Not meaning to beat a dead horse here, but if the light doesn't change, then how come the above examples are so obviously different when they were taken in the same spot, same settings, one after the other?:confused: Obviously something is changing and/or affecting the end result. So if it's not me changing, and it's not the camera changing, what is it? I hope I don't sound rude, I'm just frustrated and trying to figure this out.:oops: I'm missing a link somewhere. I hate it when that happens.

As for no action in the shots, obviously that's a given;). These shots were strictly for exposure practice and content wasn't a priority. One step at a time for me.
Trust me when I say that it takes considerably more practice to get good action shots indoors than it does to get the proper exposure! I know you're frustrated and I TRULY understand. But honestly, your problems that you are focusing on are easily fixed. If at the last resort in post processing your pics.
Content should always come before everything. Without content, it is nothing.
I agree one step at a time, just take the right step first. A fuzzy picture of a sharp idea is better than a sharp picture of a fuzzy idea.
My indoor sports shots are all PP'd in DPP. Copy the recipe, paste to all, crop some, batch process, done!

[bwolford]

Yes those are the correct settings, and yes I think I am pushing the limits of what I've got. I am shooting in RAW. I will figure out how to turn on image editing and would be happy to see what can be done with these. I appreciate your offer!

I'm curious what you all think of the focus issues. I feel that I have a combined problem of exposure, poor focus, and WB issues. I'm hoping that the 85 with a USM will improve the focus, and learning more about PP in RAW will help with WB, and just gaining more experience will help with exposure. At least, that's my plan. Any thoughts?

It's odd that most of your images are coming out like this with that lens. I always have a couple of keepers, but if there isn't enough light, it might just not focus. Your flash image came out alright so the lens seems OK.

That 85 will focus much better, I understand - I don't have one.

I'll take a look at your image later and see what I can do in PP. Can you send me an email address via PM and perhaps we can exchange one of your raw images so I can work from the original?

[PhotosGuy]

All gyms are different/horrible. My solution to shooting in available darkness:
Some Volly Ball Tournament Tests **56K Warning!** (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=394723)

[flute4peace]

Thanks for the link, Frank! It was very interesting and informative.

Brice, my 85 is arriving today, and we have another practice tomorrow. I'll be back then with some more test shots and I'm sure I'll have something to send you then. I don't expect the 85 will solve all my problems.

I just found out we have home games on Saturday so the pressure's on.:-?

[dfoo]

Put the camera is manual. Set ISO to 1600. Set the shutter to 1/200 (or so) and then choose whatever aperture gives you a correct exposure. Look at the histogram to determine whether you have the correct exposure if you don't trust the meter. You want to set the exposure so that the subject of the shots (the players) are correctly exposed. Now concentrate on getting a well framed and interesting shot :) This assumes that the light doesn't change from one end of the gym to the other, of course. This ensures that the exposure remains consistent and isn't fooled by bright lights that come into and out of the scene. You'll need to fix the WB in post as everyone has already said. However, by using manual you'll ensure that the shots all have more or less the same correct exposure.

[S.Horton]

So I should expect that I will have a fluctuation in both exposure and WB? Ok, knowing that will help. I have a tendency to want to get it perfect SOOC and maybe I'm not being realistic about this?

I've enabled image editing and would love to see how "salvageable" these are, in terms of exposure and WB.

Keep trying. You will get there. The gyms the kids are in have horrible lighting.

Try:

Manual exposure
ISO 1600
RAW
Center point AF only
AI Servo
Set the 85 at f/2
Adjust the shutter
Put the AF point on the chest of the player
Check exposure before play begins (shoot the warmups, adjust)
Fire away

Your basic goal is to get good exposure and an in focus shot of a kid with the ball in play. It will take practice, and patience, but you'll develop a feel.

For post-processing, you have ACR, so you'll need to set WB there.

That's not everything you could do, and surely not perfect advice, but it should get you moving on the right track this weekend.

Good luck!

[flute4peace]

Thank you! The 85 did seem to make a difference. I shot on M at pretty much the same settings I was using before - f2.2, ss250, iso 1600. If I tried to budge from that at all it didn't work, although even through a burst series there was an obvious fluctuation in exposures. I guess I just have to live with that - but it's good to know (from the burst) that it's the lighting and not me. I also downloaded and tried noiseware and was pretty surprised at how much difference that made. And honestly, I didn't have to tweak the WB as much as I expected to. So...I'm feeling rather hopeful this evening. It's nothing like you all are capable of, but with the gear I've got it's likely as good as it's going to get (exposure-wise), and at least maybe usable. I posted one example on a new thread down the line a little ways.

So...now I can relax a little on exposure and concentrate on composition and hitting those shirts with that focus point. Dang, but they move fast!:eek:

ETA: Woops, didn't realize this had been moved. Here's my most recent attempt:
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd29/nikkif4p/IMG_6796_filtered.jpg

[oaktree]

I would also suggest getting the 85/1.8 and hope that (at f/1.8, ISO 1600 and Tv faster than 1/250) this fast focusing lens will give you better results than the 50/1.8.

I've used the 85/1.8 for basketball and it did fine. But the "gym" I usually shoot in is a NBA arena and, even thought the lights are good, I'm still shooting at f/2.0 or lower, ISO 1600 and Tv = 1/640 or faster to stop action. I also use center point AF, AI Servo, WB set at "flourescent", partial metering and CFn 4.3. I also have a XTi.

I use manual exposure mode "M". Found this is better than Av or Tv mode even in a HS gym shooting wrestling. I get to the gym/arena early and start taking pictures of people moving around or the players warming up, and keep adjusting my settings until, on average, the shots look OK. I'm usually "overexposing" about 1/3 stop by the meter reading. Eventually you'll get an idea of the settings you can use for most gyms; after that, only slight adjustments may be necessary.

Shooting in gyms is difficult, so keep at it. Even in an NBA arena, it took me about 5 games before I figured out my camera settings. And I'm still having trouble keeping the fast moving players in focus!

So have fun. Don't get discouraged. And practice, practice, practice.

[AB8ND]

When I was shooting for a local paper, film so no chimping the digital, I took a handheld incident meter reading from around the gym. This way I had an idea of what conditions where in different spots. Usually the best setting was iso 1600 1/250th and f/2.8, some really bad gyms the iso had to pushed to 3200, one has to love TriX. What you might consider is clamping your flash high in the bleachers, maybe adding another one, and triggering them with a radio control. 2 portable strobes on 1/2 to 1/4 power aimed to about the top of the key would/should give a nice light if balanced with the ambient.

Jack

[S.Horton]

@Flute you're on your way!

Pretty crisp result, too!

Enjoy!