Getting a little sick and tired of all the "gratis" requests for images

[noxcuses1]

Why is it that everyone wants images for free?

So I sent my fee for use and I was almost threatened by them telling me they would remove my link from their myspace, yes myspace, if I wouldn't waive my fees.

Here's part of the email. Let me know what you think. I will reduce my fee, but surely I need to make money too. This is my business.

"We're still interested in using some photos for promotional use but were hoping you could help us out with the fee.
I thought perhaps as an exchange / co-promotion, you might be able to waive the fee and allow us to use a limited amount of photos over the next 2 years.
As you know, we've had a link on our site to yours for the past month and a half. Being that ****** is one of the top local acts, getting more views ( and major radio airplay) than other area artists, we hope that our fans have been driven to your site and you have noticed an increase in traffic. While I recognize that you did not ask us to promote your site, we do hope that you take it in to consideration as a gesture of our appreciation for your great work.

If you don't feel comfortable with a reduced fee in exchange for a promotion of your site, I would be happy to take down the link on the ******* myspace.
I'm not sure that we would buy any images at this time."


Any comments on this?

It just irritates me because so many concert/band photographers give away their pics, so now they don't want to pay.

I was the only photographer there that night to shoot their pics.

[coralnutz]

He offer doesn't seem out of line to me. I'm not saying that it's a good or bad deal for you, but he's just presenting an offer that he feels fair. If you don't I would just let him know and if he takes down the link to your site, no big deal. Like he said, it's not like you asked them to put it up there.

[Citizensmith]

Tell them to go ahead and drop the link. Doesn't sound like you are loosing much.

[cdifoto]

Eh ignore them and don't worry about 'em removing your link. They're not a good referral source anyway. If your pics are worth buying they'll either come around or find someone else to screw over.

[noxcuses1]

Free isn't really fair.
This is business. I have bills to pay too.

I'm not one to be difficult, and I always work with people, but how can I just give away my hi res images at no charge?

Gee, even stock photographers make something from their pics.

[MJPhotos24]

He offer doesn't seem out of line to me. I'm not saying that it's a good or bad deal for you, but he's just presenting an offer that he feels fair. If you don't I would just let him know and if he takes down the link to your site, no big deal. Like he said, it's not like you asked them to put it up there.

In that case, I need an assistant this year in baseball. Fly out whenever I need you, spread out over months, and do all the work I need you to, I'll tell others you're great but no pay.

Everybody is going to try and low ball you, it's how it is. Noone wants to pay for nothing, what good is a credit in the paper? Not much, noone reads it. How good is a link on a website, not much, noone clicks it. I read my website stats every once in awhile to see where hits are coming from, very rarely is it links on sites except maybe this one in my signature and sports shooter. Bands/labels/stations do link exchange all the time - but that's trading a link for a link, not trading services for a link.

A band thats getting radio play is supposed to be getting paid for that airplay...a photographer thats getting images used is supposed to be getting paid for that usage. Period.

Now, speaking on a bands, or whoever this, standpoint in the music business local artists are not rich - in fact usually they are very limited in funds. I ran an indie label for 5 years and we couldn't pay a photographer to come in and do shots, the owner of the label would pay me x-amount for some shots and that's it - and it was very little. But I was working with them to try and launch the businss in another aspect than a photog, if they had contacted me to shoot for them then no way would do it for free like that. You may want to give local bands deals, but free isn't the answer. The first thing I told bands when reveiwing there demo packages was "hire a photographer for good promotional photos. Pay the $250 day fee and get good stuff to use to promote your band and make sure the contract is good for your use and the photog."

Let him lose your link, just tell him it's a job and you can't do it for free. I had plenty of bands tell me they wouldn't put a song on our compilation CD's back in the day because the payment wasn't enough, so bands/managers have standards too - whoever this person is most likely just trying to low ball.

Sorry, but it's getting really annoying to see everyone happy with giving there stuff away for free for a credit or something like a link that does no good at all!

slight rant over :)

[MJPhotos24]

Free isn't really fair.
This is business. I have bills to pay too.

I'm not one to be difficult, and I always work with people, but how can I just give away my hi res images at no charge?

Gee, even stock photographers make something from their pics.

Hey, most of my yearly income is stock!! But not that istock $.99 crap, ha.

If you don't mind, what type of company is this - is it a band directly - radio station - etc?

[pagnamenta]

Don't give away photos for free, makes it harder for the pros who make a living from photography.

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE) always keeps me in line when I think of giving work away for free.

[Ultimate CC]

no way would i waive the fees, myspace isn't going to get you that much business unless they are uber popular...

[liza]

I'd say to hell with them. Tell them to remove the link.

And you aren't the only one sick and tired of the "gratis" requests. When you go into business, people also hit you up for money for this or that. I got a request today for a $50 "donation" for a local photography contest. And they expect me to judge it, too!

[bcdoug]

if said band is the top act in the area, getting more exposure and radio play, surely they can afford proper promotional materials, ie: your photographs, to be given away to their fans.

i don't see how their popularity is going to drive traffic to your site, unless you are the one selling their pictures.

[turbo212003]

Don't even bother to reply. Let them remove the link.

[CanonXtiDude]

thats a nasty letter. I would let them know that your fees are not negotiable.

[transcend]

He offer doesn't seem out of line to me. I'm not saying that it's a good or bad deal for you, but he's just presenting an offer that he feels fair. If you don't I would just let him know and if he takes down the link to your site, no big deal. Like he said, it's not like you asked them to put it up there.

Are you seriously for real?

Please come work for me, I need a slave.

[Curtis N]

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE) always keeps me in line when I think of giving work away for free.Well, at least he's not bitter. :rolleyes:

In every creative profession there are amateurs who will work for free, just to get their name out there. I don't think the real pros worry about them too much.

There are some forms of non-monetary compensation that have real value, but I don't think a link on a myspace page is one of them.

[Blue Deuce]

Well, at least he's not bitter. :rolleyes:

In every creative profession there are amateurs who will work for free, just to get their name out there. I don't think the real pros worry about them too much.


I used to "work" for free for the local chapter of one of the preeminent national conservation organizations. That led to me being frequently published in the state magazine and that in turn led to the national headquarters seeing my photos and purchasing them. From the national exposure in a prominent recognized magazine I get requests for paid work even outside my area of interest. So sometimes it is worth while when starting out to suck it up especially if you support the cause you are shooting for. I still let the local folks use my images for being in my corner a long time ago.

[sspellman]

noxcuses1-

The main issue here is the business model-your concept of taking pictures for commercial purposes and then later attempting to negociate fair license fees simply does not work well. You have not effectively researched your client to confirm that they percieve your services as valuable and unique, and that they actually pay for creative services. Out of 800+ music performers I have photographed in the last 6 years, I have only successfully negociated licensing for existing pictures for 12 clients.

From the response, it seems very unlikely that they will ever pay for photography services. Most small collaborative businesses such as bands are not likely to be good photography clients.

I hear the same whining all the time. Tell them you will happily give/credit them them 10% of any actual income from referals. That still will not work.

-Scott

[Perry Ge]

^ There's wisdom to that post.

But seriously, it's annoying eh? I'm not a pro, but when people ask me to do shoots for them, I give them a price, spell out what I'm gonna do, and they pay me! The rest of the time I use for shooting my own stuff.

Free requests are so annoying. I got asked by some people just yesterday to do headshots and promotional shots for their college play because they had been told that I was the best person to ask for the job, and I was like 'yeah I might be able to do that'. Then I got a message that was basically along the lines of 'show up at this time, and we'll tell you what to do and what we need. If you are confused, you can talk to the girl in charge when you show up. Thanks for volunteering.'

And I thought B***H PLEASE! First of all, I never agreed concretely. Secondly, I tell YOU how the shoot is gonna go, not the other way round - I'm not going to be anybody's shutter-slave. They didn't even give a location so I could go and scope out the lighting. Third, pay up. Most of my clients are college students who already know me, maybe wanna get a portfolio going, don't know too much, but like my style/lighting and want to work with me, which is real nice. I don't know what these folk were smoking, so I sent a polite letter back saying I wouldn't be available at the times they had given, and wasn't comfortable with showing up and shooting without a plan, cuz that's not how I roll, and sorry.

Grrr...Hope these folk don't read POTN.

</rant> Sorry for the tangent, but I feel your frustration here.

[PhotosGuy]

Secondly, I tell YOU how the shoot is gonna go, not the other way round - I'm not going to be anybody's shutter-slave. Yes! :D

[noxcuses1]

noxcuses1-

The main issue here is the business model-your concept of taking pictures for commercial purposes and then later attempting to negociate fair license fees simply does not work well. You have not effectively researched your client to confirm that they percieve your services as valuable and unique, and that they actually pay for creative services. Out of 800+ music performers I have photographed in the last 6 years, I have only successfully negociated licensing for existing pictures for 12 clients.

-Scott

I was not contracted by them to take the photos. I was on assignment for my publication that I own.
After seeing the pics, the band's manager/label approached me asking what my prices if they could buy them to use for web/promotional use.
So I sent my prices, and they responded with the email I posted in the first post.

If I work for a client, clearly I will negotiate all terms prior.

[noxcuses1]

thanks everyone for all your input!

I appreciate your responses, they all helped!

[noxcuses1]

Don't give away photos for free, makes it harder for the pros who make a living from photography.

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE) always keeps me in line when I think of giving work away for free.

lol, loved it! thanks for that link.

[JMHPhotography]

This totally depends on your standing as a professional photographer. If you're just starting out and trying to make a name for yourself... I would totally agree with promoting yourself in this manner. As an established pro... you could even agree to it but I'd even get them to sign a release for you to use the images as YOU see fit as well. This opens things up for you commercially. Maybe you could reach an agreement with the band to be the exclusive licensed photographer and their fans could buy printed products from you, like lithos or posters... or even t-shirts. Or maybe you could sign on to be the supplier of printed products to them to sell to their fans...to sell on their site. You would get a percentage, but they'd do all the marketing and front end stuff.. Think outside the box... this could be an extraordinary business opportunity for you.

[kuanyu]

You could look through your web logs and see just how many referals came from thier site. It would have to be alot to even consider this deal IMHO though.

[MJPhotos24]

Don't give away photos for free, makes it harder for the pros who make a living from photography.

This always keeps me in line when I think of giving work away for free.

It's not bitter (from quote below), it's the truth! There's no publicity value in credits, or links, noones looking at them. Sure if you have a great image it will catch peoples eyes and that may lead to something else if say another editor sees it, but once that guy finds out you gave your stuff away for free they'll now expect it for free.

When starting out I did some stuff for "credit" and it did no good at all. Few people commented on it but that was it. Locally it definately did nothing, most people around here don't have a clue what I do for a living. When I do youth league photos I always have parents I used to know back in the good ol' days asking "when did you start doing this?" If they read the credits maybe they'd know - noone reads them.

I have a college right now that contacts me about every 2-3 weeks asking about an image for there media guide, so every time they contact I respond with a standard price which isn't much at all, for one time usage in the guide for one year, the guy contacting me probably spends more at the bar on a friday night than what I gave him as a quote. They choose to ignore my email and ask for a free shot again in 2-3 weeks.

Well, at least he's not bitter.

In every creative profession there are amateurs who will work for free, just to get their name out there. I don't think the real pros worry about them too much.

There are some forms of non-monetary compensation that have real value, but I don't think a link on a myspace page is one of them.

I know a lot of pros who hate those people but dont worry about them. Buddy of mine lost his job with a team because someone wanted to come in and do it for free just to be around the players (seriously sports fans, thats idiotic to work for free just be on the sidelines). You just move on and find who's going to pay because some people still value photography, and those are the people you want to work with.

As for non-monetary compensation, that's true too. One team I work for the owner is a penny pincher and won't even give employees a meal or drink at the stadium. This is a rich guy who never is around but his staff has to count every little penny. He won't pay a photog, but instead the team gives me hotel passes for VIP service. I travel a LOT so free VIP stays is fine by me, it adds up to a good chunk of change when you consider the hotel is usually $79.95+ for this chain. So enough of those and all is good.

EDIT: Also, I don't know why this is a common theme but why would you ignore the person? Why would you just not answer - that's no way to do business. It's a hellofa lot better to respond professionaly letting them know you're a professional photographer and would like to help them out but you can't give images away for free or links. A professional response without being a jerk = good publicity. Ignoring them totally = screwing yourself over. Bands talk at shows and the "a-hole photographer that doesn't even respond to emails" won't be getting calls by bands who WILL pay.

[noxcuses1]

here was my response:

"I am willing to lower my fee for you to * per image for website/promo and press kits with photo credit.

If the image is going to be used for CD cover, magazines, and other high profile placements, the charge will be more, with photo credit.

I feel this price is fair, and hopefully you agree.

Best,"

I check stats regularly, and had less that maybe 5 hits from their "link", so that's not gonna fly.
They would need our coverage more for the exposure. I don't understand why they wouldn't see it that way as we wrote a review, link, and pics of them on our media site.

Off topic- We just got a contract from a Record label asking us to sign a copyright release for a band we requested to shoot.
I laughed at the email, and professionally responded back with a nice "no thanks". I don't need to shoot a band just to give away my photo rights. They can get their "gratis" photos from some "fanboy" in Omaha! :grin:

[MJPhotos24]

here was my response:

"I am willing to lower my fee for you to * per image for website/promo and press kits with photo credit.

If the image is going to be used for CD cover, magazines, and other high profile placements, the charge will be more, with photo credit.

I feel this price is fair, and hopefully you agree.

Best,"

I check stats regularly, and had less that maybe 5 hits from their "link", so that's not gonna fly.
They would need our coverage more for the exposure. I don't understand why they wouldn't see it that way as we wrote a review, link, and pics of them on our media site.

Off topic- We just got a contract from a Record label asking us to sign a copyright release for a band we requested to shoot.
I laughed at the email, and professionally responded back with a nice "no thanks". I don't need to shoot a band just to give away my photo rights. They can get their "gratis" photos from some "fanboy" in Omaha! :grin:

So they wanted the rights to your photos for allowing you to shoot it? Or did they want you to sign a contract saying you can't use the images for anything but the zine? Green Day did that too me and a bunch of others, I was talking with Mark from Blink 182 hanging out and watching Simple Plan (hell I was ON stage for some of those photos). No problems at all, then all a sudden a surge of security comes in as GD is about to take the stage and kicks almost everyone out of the pit cuz we didnt sign the contract saying we'd only release the images to (insert company we were shooting for) for Green Day. 5 of us were held hostage backstage, literally! They wouldnt let us put our gear away and go watch the show at least because somehow empty handed we might still take a pic, with no fricken gear!! One guy just left and went to his car to sleep and wait for the next band, Blink, but instead he just went through the front gate with a 300 and shot away from the crowd for one song and then took his nap. Blink got on stage and we were "freed" from our little prison out back to go shoot.

Labels usually will want to use images for promotional reasons such as distribution prints, promo photos - which get scanned and used in papers w/o the photographers permission, thats usually part of the deal. You lose a bit of rights when dealing with labels and day fees, but if the band makes it big you should be able to sell prints still. If you didn't sign that contract, thats the difference between sports and bands.

[eastcoastsponger]

In every creative profession there are amateurs who will work for free, just to get their name out there. I don't think the real pros worry about them too much.

This has to be one of the most ignorant comments I've read. I'm no "pro" but let me tell you a real "pro" does worry about the amateurs who are giving there images away for free and signing over there copywrite for peanuts in some cases.

Let's put somethings in perspective. Say you're a surf photographer like myself who is looking to make a few bucks to pay bills, upgrade equipment or whatever it is you need. You're at the surf mecca of the world...the North Shore of Oahu in the winter season when the swell is epic and every single top 44 surfer in the world is there sporting there sponsers logos. While you're set up on the beach with your 4k camera body, 6k tele and your 1.5k tri-pod you have Mr. Amateur with his entry level set up star struck from all the top surfers shooting right next to you. You put in a good day of shooting go home and start the process of marketing your work.

Fast forward a few days/weeks....guess what? Your photos are top notch and you want the current industry rate for your images but Mr. Amateure who was next to you just gave his unedited, mediocre images to the same company you're trying to sell yours too for free just so he can see his name in print.

I'll give you one guess who'll be out of business if more and more "amateurs" continue doing this and the companies continue to use them.

It's hard enough to make money in this business without clownshoes throwing a wrench in the spokes.

So the next time a company asks for free images send them this link or better yet if you're thinking of offering a company your images for free refer to this link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE

[noxcuses1]

So they wanted the rights to your photos for allowing you to shoot it? Or did they want you to sign a contract saying you can't use the images for anything but the zine?

Labels usually will want to use images for promotional reasons such as distribution prints, promo photos - which get scanned and used in papers w/o the photographers permission, thats usually part of the deal. You lose a bit of rights when dealing with labels and day fees, but if the band makes it big you should be able to sell prints still. If you didn't sign that contract, thats the difference between sports and bands.

Exactly, basically they wanted to give me a photo pass and give them all rights to my photos. We'd only be able to use the images for our review and gallery, lol. No thanks!

I've worked with some amazing bands that are like family now.
Can't blame the bands though, it's more the management, PR, or label that make those rules.

It happens, but luckily not too often.

Here's the doc they sent:




1. I have the limited right and permission to use certain Photos that have been approved by you solely in connection with one (1) article about you contained in ________________________________ [State name of publication].
The Photos may be used only in an article, publication or other medium initially disseminated to the public within one year of the date of this agreement. I shall have no right to otherwise use or re-use the Photos in whole or in part, in any medium or for any purpose whatsoever, including, without limitation, promotion, advertising, and trade, without your written consent therefor.

2. I hereby acknowledge that you shall own all rights in the Photos, including the copyrights therein and thereto, and accordingly, I hereby grant, transfer, convey and assign to you all right, title and interest throughout the universe in perpetuity, including, without limitation, the copyright (and all renewals and extensions thereof), in and to the Photos. I agree that you shall have the right to exploit all or a part of the Photos in any and all media, now known or hereafter devised, throughout the universe, in perpetuity, in all configurations as you determine, without obtaining my consent and without any payment or consideration therefor. I understand that you will give me appropriate "photo credit" where possible. I understand further that all aspects of said "photo credit" shall be determined by you in your sole discretion and that failure to accord said "photo credit" shall not be deemed a breach of any obligation, express or implied. I further grant to you the right to use my name, likeness and biographical data in connection with the distribution, exhibition, advertising and exploitation of the Photos. I will, upon request, execute, acknowledge and deliver to you such additional documents as you may deem necessary to evidence and effectuate your rights hereunder, and I hereby grant to you the right as attorney-in-fact to execute, acknowledge, deliver and record in the U.S. Copyright Office or elsewhere any and all such documents if I shall fail to execute same within five (5) days after so requested by you.

3. You may assign my rights under this agreement in whole or in part.

4. I hereby waive all rights of adroit moral or "moral right of authors" or any similar rights or principles of law which I may now have or later have in the Photos. I warrant and represent that I have the right to execute this Certificate and that the Photos are and shall be new and original with me and shall be capable of copyright protection throughout the universe, that they do not and shall not violate or infringe upon any common law or statutory right of any party, or constitute unfair competition and are not now and shall not be the subject of any litigation. I shall indemnify and hold you, and your employees, officers, agents, assignees and licensees, harmless from and against any losses, costs, liabilities, claims, damages or expenses arising out of any claim by a third party which is inconsistent with any warranty or representation made by me in this Certificate.

5. This Certificate contains the entire understanding of the parties and will be governed by the laws of California in the United States of America applicable to contracts entered into in California in the United States of America.

[MJPhotos24]

A) That's a poorly written contract in terms of conditions obviously (beyond obvious actually) and just how it's written - I mean how many I's can they use? That was an amateur writing that trying to sound professional and failed miserably. Anyone who signs that or thinks it's an "ok" deal is a complete and utter fricken idiot.

B) I've worked with a ton of labels all over the world and know a lot of owners, wonder if this is anyone I know, ha. Punk label it just might be, but not sure what kinda music they are doing. If it was someone I knew I'd fly to cali and b***h slap him. :)

[turbo212003]

Bands = Never again.....Learn your lesson and move on.

[MJPhotos24]

Bands = Never again.....Learn your lesson and move on.

As someone who's worked with bands for a long time on every level from a manager, agent, executive producer, producer, public & artist relations, photographer, etc. do have to say that's not the best outlook for one to have. I don't work with bands that much anymore because I'm too busy doing my other stuff (sports photography & coaching) but it's pretty blunt to say one bad experience and you ditch it totally. If so I'd be screwed the first time a big leaguer gave me attitude during a photo shoot. Also, the OP seems to enjoy working with bands, why the hell would he ditch what he enjoys cuz one agent? Again, it's in every aspect of photography - editors for newspapers/magazines/etc. try this all the time and people are still willing to go sit on the sidelines and shoot for free. Pointless.

[turbo212003]

As someone who's worked with bands for a long time on every level from a manager, agent, executive producer, producer, public & artist relations, photographer, etc. do have to say that's not the best outlook for one to have. I don't work with bands that much anymore because I'm too busy doing my other stuff (sports photography & coaching) but it's pretty blunt to say one bad experience and you ditch it totally. If so I'd be screwed the first time a big leaguer gave me attitude during a photo shoot. Also, the OP seems to enjoy working with bands, why the hell would he ditch what he enjoys cuz one agent? Again, it's in every aspect of photography - editors for newspapers/magazines/etc. try this all the time and people are still willing to go sit on the sidelines and shoot for free. Pointless.

Who said I only did it once? Generally, bands don't have the money to pay for photography. They would rather have a friend do it than to pay someone.

[MJPhotos24]

I was talking about the OP's one bad experience. Bands don't have a lot of money, at least some don't while others do...guess it depends what kind of bands you're working with. A good publicity photo is huge, bands that don't understand that you're not going to work with anyways cuz they dont care if there buddy does it instead of getting someone professional. In general though bands worth a darn know to hire a pro. Sure they try to get it for free (everyone does), but they know it's needed...and working bands will have the $$ to pay for it.

[rhys]

Free doesn't pay bills.

myspace is a waste of space. It's where kiddies go to talk dirty and to show unsuitable photos to each other.

As many of you already know, I don't think a great deal of websites. They're not in the real world - you can't just walk into a website like you can a shop. A lot of people have difficulty believing that work is obtained through networking not through crap like websites and email. Thus, to me, an offer of "website promotion" is the same as somebody picking their butt then offering to shake your hand!

[hitmanh]

A lot of people have difficulty believing that work is obtained through networking not through crap like websites and email

Websites and e-mail is no less a valid networking tool than any other... it's just another method of communication.

Matt

[rhys]

Websites and e-mail is no less a valid networking tool than any other... it's just another method of communication.

Matt

Websites and email aren't real contact with real customers. You need to be out there, shaking hands and talking to people - not pissing about with websites and email.

[hitmanh]

Websites and email aren't real contact with real customers. You need to be out there, shaking hands and talking to people - not pissing about with websites and email.

lol, ok, as you wish...

[cory1848]

Here is my input as I sit on both sides of this... I play in an original band and I have hired photogs to shoot us and whatnot. We make crap for money, lucky if its $100 a gig for 5 members, barely covers gas and food. Original bands dont make crap and MOST are not made of money, most barely can afford guitar strings or drumsticks to keep playing...Thats a musicians life and its not alway gratifying...We do it for the love of music....With that said, I would NEVER expect a pro level photog to give us photos for
our gig. If the photog was just there shooting in hopes of making a sale later, I would like to ability to choose what photos I wanted and just pay for those. I would need those to be able to be used on websites, flyers, ads, etc...so figure that into the price.
Now, here is the catch, my band is not signed and we have no label backing. Everything changes once there is a financial backer. A true label with financial support will REQUIRE new photos, mostly head shots and group photos to be taken and those will be paid for and the label will expect to pay for them.
90% of bands that say they have a label and promotions and management, really dont. Manager consists of a girlfriend usually (someone that can talk), promotions and label comes with an "Indie" designation that basically means the band made its own label to make themselves look better.

Sounds like this is the case in this situation. Like others have said, you need to decide if the "advertising" they are doing on their myspace site is worth some free pictures for them. Have you received any new business from this? How well is this band networked with other bands in the area? One thing I can attest to is that word of mouth spreads rapidly among the musician community and if they are well known and well liked, it could hurt you in terms of future business. Thats the reality of it. Would I give them away for free? No, but I would expect to pay for them as well, even if its not a lot.

If this is a cover band, make them pay because they should be making good money.

[MJPhotos24]

Free doesn't pay bills.

myspace is a waste of space. It's where kiddies go to talk dirty and to show unsuitable photos to each other.

As many of you already know, I don't think a great deal of websites. They're not in the real world - you can't just walk into a website like you can a shop. A lot of people have difficulty believing that work is obtained through networking not through crap like websites and email. Thus, to me, an offer of "website promotion" is the same as somebody picking their butt then offering to shake your hand!

No offense, but that is complete and utter BS!

A) Myspace isn't a talk dirty and show unsuitable photos to each other website, don't sit there and judge it off a small percentage of people who use it for other reasons than it was intended for. It's a networking site that was first established for bands to get in touch with fans and promote. I was one of the first 1000 or so on there because I owned a label and that "Tom" guy sent me the info for our bands as mp3.com was going down the crapper and this was the new outlet for bands to put music up - it just happened to explode. You can stop watching the Dateline special report of few idiots who used the site wrong out of the millions who use it in a normal capacity and label it "evil" - because every site has someone who uses it wrong! It's fricken stupid IMHO. I love the fact people like to blame a website for peoples stupid behavior, don't blame the parents lack of parenting and teaching their kids. The people who blame a website are the same people that dont say a word to little Sally going to school looking like a hooker, that expect the school or coaches or someone else to raise there kids and teach morals or whatever. It's a joke.

B) If you don't think a great deal of websites you really need to get out of the 1980's and join the new age. Websites increase sales and is another method for everything, having a database for my clients to go to on my website and get what they want any time they want is just like walking into a store except you don't have a zit faced kid giving you attitude behind the counter cuz you interupted his video game. Real and fake world is how you use it.

C) Websites and email is another form of networking, if someone chooses to do all there work online it's difficult but it can be done. Most of my stuff is done online because baseball hours are kind of backwards of normal hours. I work all over the country, not in one town/city, and often have to send out info late at night/early morning when normal people are fast asleep. My best clients I actually talk to once in a great while, it's almost always email.

Well love to keep going but my largest client just emailed me and I like to get back to him ASAP, plus I have a weggie that needs pickin - just wish I had someones hand to shake.

[cdifoto]

As many of you already know, I don't think a great deal of websites. They're not in the real world - you can't just walk into a website like you can a shop.

On the other hand, a shop has business hours and a website is available 24/7.

Websites and email aren't real contact with real customers. You need to be out there, shaking hands and talking to people - not pissing about with websites and email.

People you talk to through email are as real as they would be in person or on the phone.

[Mark_48]

On the other hand, a shop has business hours and a website is available 24/7.



People you talk to through email are as real as they would be in person or on the phone.

You may be responding to someone who is no longer with us..........:shock:

Well at least for a couple of weeks maybe. I'll miss him...

[coralnutz]

In that case, I need an assistant this year in baseball. Fly out whenever I need you, spread out over months, and do all the work I need you to, I'll tell others you're great but no pay.



Everybody is going to try and low ball you, it's how it is. Noone wants to pay for nothing, what good is a credit in the paper? Not much, noone reads it. How good is a link on a website, not much, noone clicks it. I read my website stats every once in awhile to see where hits are coming from, very rarely is it links on sites except maybe this one in my signature and sports shooter. Bands/labels/stations do link exchange all the time - but that's trading a link for a link, not trading services for a link.



A band thats getting radio play is supposed to be getting paid for that airplay...a photographer thats getting images used is supposed to be getting paid for that usage. Period.



Now, speaking on a bands, or whoever this, standpoint in the music business local artists are not rich - in fact usually they are very limited in funds. I ran an indie label for 5 years and we couldn't pay a photographer to come in and do shots, the owner of the label would pay me x-amount for some shots and that's it - and it was very little. But I was working with them to try and launch the businss in another aspect than a photog, if they had contacted me to shoot for them then no way would do it for free like that. You may want to give local bands deals, but free isn't the answer. The first thing I told bands when reveiwing there demo packages was "hire a photographer for good promotional photos. Pay the $250 day fee and get good stuff to use to promote your band and make sure the contract is good for your use and the photog."



Let him lose your link, just tell him it's a job and you can't do it for free. I had plenty of bands tell me they wouldn't put a song on our compilation CD's back in the day because the payment wasn't enough, so bands/managers have standards too - whoever this person is most likely just trying to low ball.



Sorry, but it's getting really annoying to see everyone happy with giving there stuff away for free for a credit or something like a link that does no good at all!



slight rant over





I guess I didn't explain what I meant very well. I'm in no way suggesting giving away your work or anything of the sort. In fact, if it was me I'd tell him that's fine if he wanted to remove my link and good luck with his venture. I guess I was trying to say that I don't think the guy sounded threatening or anything.



If I had a small website or something and wanted to use someones images and thought I was helping them out as well with the link , but I didn't have money to buy them, why not ask, you might get lucky. I guess I didn't see the guys email as threatening at all. Just a guy with a low/no budget asking a question.

[noxcuses1]

The label IS a label, it's just not a corporate label...say like, Capitol or Warner Brothers.

The manager of the band is part owner of the label and is very experienced in the music business.

I don't shoot bands during live performances to make money. If they like the pics, and they ask me to buy a few, which was the case in my original post, then I will give them a fair price that I think is reasonable for all of us.

I didn't expect to be lowballed with an offer to waive the fees. When someone asks what your price is, that's your price. I was kind enough to reduce this amount significantly as I am familiar that most bands out there aren't making a fortune.

MJ- I like your thinking. :)




On a side note, I've "invested" my services in some bands that have become good friends. So for me it's not always how much I'm making, I'm also building professional relationships with these people.

[transcend]

Websites and email aren't real contact with real customers. You need to be out there, shaking hands and talking to people - not pissing about with websites and email.

Erm, if you say so. I travel about 30+ weeks of the year shooting. I barely ever meet my clients. I work from a laptop in airport terminals and hotel rooms and deal with clients almost entirely through web galleries, FTP, emails and text messages on my blackberry.

As for the web as a proper advertising medium, ad sales on the web outstripped print ads for the first time in 2006. That is a HUGE statement.

I worked in the tech industry (web stuff specifically) before i went back to photography, and I can assure you, while you may be old and crotchety and have some insane distrust of the internet, it is a very viable marketing entity.

[MJPhotos24]

MJ- I like your thinking. :)

Finally someone does, and my psychiatrist thought I was insane!! ha

[cory1848]

The label IS a label, it's just not a corporate label...say like, Capitol or Warner Brothers.

The manager of the band is part owner of the label and is very experienced in the music business.

I don't shoot bands during live performances to make money. If they like the pics, and they ask me to buy a few, which was the case in my original post, then I will give them a fair price that I think is reasonable for all of us.

I didn't expect to be lowballed with an offer to waive the fees. When someone asks what your price is, that's your price. I was kind enough to reduce this amount significantly as I am familiar that most bands out there aren't making a fortune.

MJ- I like your thinking. :)




On a side note, I've "invested" my services in some bands that have become good friends. So for me it's not always how much I'm making, I'm also building professional relationships with these people.


Sounds like you have your answer. If they a truly one of the top local acts, with major radio airplay, then they have money. In order to get into rotation at any major station, you have to have a distribution deal and be a member of ASCAP or BMI. They get paid for that. So for them to low ball you on a couple of pics sounds to me like they expect a freebie. I would say no thanks.