So I jinxed myself by saying this....

[Sauk]

"I have not had one player or coach complain about the strobes!"

Well tonight I was going to shoot the Hillcrest at Riverton game and got to the game, setup my strobes and shot about 3 quarters of the JV games adjusting the lights and what not.

Well towards the end of the 4th quarter the AD of Riverton comes up to me while I am adjusting my lights and says hello there I am the AD of the School, who are you shooting for? I said who, he said ohhh ok yeah I have heard of them and then says sorry to tell you this but the coach doesn't want you using flash during the game.

I said, "oh wow, really?" He said yeah it is bothering the coaches and players and he doesn't want you using it. I said cool, but just so you know I have done this amount of games and your coach is the first one to ever say anything, players included. I said but the coach has the final say so I will stop. I apologized for the inconvenience and took down my gear. He I think could tell I was a bit annoyed at it and came up to me just before the game was to begin again and talked to me and asked if I was going to still shoot the game. I said yeah but that I won't be able to use them for that site.

He said he understood and that was that. Anyways fast forward I near halftime went up to him and thanked him, said he had a great gym and if the head coach ever allowed flash for his games for him to call me and I would come back and cover one of their games and get pictures that parents would want to purchase for their sons. Gave him my card shook his hand and left the game.

I knew I should have never said that! lol Jinxed myself lol

Could I have handled that better? I wish I could have actually talked to the coach, but I was not able to. By the way I also went up to the Hillcrest coach who I pretty much cover every game and asked him if he ever noticed my strobes/flashes or if they bothered him, he said he never has noticed them and didn't even know I used them.

Needless to say I was VERY rusty not using my strobes. It felt very weird taking pictures at a burst rate instead of click, wait, click, wait, click type of procedure.

Here are some comparison shots from the game, enjoy :) (Link to Full Gallery - Here (http://www.matthewsauk.com/huskiesvsrivertonJV/))

1. With Strobes
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1935/img1855qr0.jpg

2. With Strobes
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/7823/img1862oc3.jpg

3. With Strobes
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/3636/img1878kx4.jpg

4. NO strobes
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/5337/img2002ww9.jpg

5. No Strobes
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/3442/img2065je7.jpg

Now as a parent you tell me which one you like lol Anyways the ones used with a strobe were just auto wb/ and tone, the ones without strobes were auto wb, tone and NN.

PS: There was a guy there shooting a D3 and I was simply amazed at how well that camera handles noise! It was amazing to see. His 12,000 ISO Shots looked as good or better then my 3200 ISO shots on my 40D lol The way that camera handles noise is amazing. When he moved up to 12,000 his shutter speed was like 1600! lol Very cool camera.

[Croasdail]

I hate it when that happens. I haven't shot HS for a couple of years, never used strobes, and never really liked what I came up with. Sure they looked fine on screen, but my personal standard is it also has to look good 13x19. Never got there with HS shots. MP doesn't do much around here, and I have thought of pinging them because I do miss HS sports, but I will only do them with strobes..... (sort of)...

pt2 - I also shoot Nikon as well. I used to shoot a d200, recently upgraded to a d300 - and honestly it does just about everything my mk II n does. But honestly, the D3 is really tempting me. I may turn my d300 back and go for the d3 for just the situations you have mentioned. Even if I can shoot ISO 3200 or 5000 and get the shutter speed up there, I could see going without strobes. We'll see what the tax man says this year and if things work out I will do the swap to the D3.

Oh, the "non strobe" shots look good too, but not as good. Too bad on that one for ya.

[neil85]

thats a bummer.

the college i went to had strobes set up permenantly for their pro photog to use during games.

[liza]

Actually, I like the NO strobe versions better. Well done.

[carsanbballs]

Actually, I like the NO strobe versions better. Well done.

You can get a lot more shots without a stobe.

[bigjon0107]

You can get a lot more shots without a stobe.

That is true, but how many more do you actually keep? You can use the motor drive for say 4 frames, choose one that you like...keeper rate of 25%. But if you know your timing, you can take one frame and get the same result (if not better results, but this is not the thread to start that debate :lol:)

[dmwierz]

Jon - you are 100% correct. When I strobe, my keeper rate is probably 75%. When I don't strobe (even in a "big-time" venue, with decent lighting), my keeper rate is markedly lower. Quantity does not always = quality.

Matt - You might want to contact the AD before you shoot next time. I always make it a point to email and call the AD of any school where I haven't shot before to notify him or her that I will be "using artificial light in accordance with IHSA rules paragraph 33", saying I will be bouncing flash off the ceiling which is less distracting to the players than even a handheld camera with its onboard flash. I also try to introduce myself to the AD once I get to the gym.

However, if somebody complains about the strobes, you gotta comply and turn 'em off. Arguing about it, or I'd imagine even saying "The AD has approved my using the lights", would probably only be contentious, and not help your cause.

While I've never been told to take strobes down, I know of a couple shooters who have, and one of them counters with "Yes sir (or ma'am), I'll be glad to take the lights down. I won't be able to continue my assignment, so could I get your name (or the name of the person requesting this) so I can tell my Editor who and why I had to cancel my work here?"

This year, I only heard one comment about strobes, and this was at the Freshman level, where the folks may have never seen them. In this instance, the referee was the one telling the parent who said "The flashes are going off in their faces" (I was bouncing my strobes off the ceiling - ironically, the parent who was complaining had a P&S in her hand, firing away with the flash blasting straight out) that the flashes are allowed at HS games and that the lights weren't even aimed at the court. Nice to have a zebra on your side.

[namasste]

Jon - you are 100% correct. When I strobe, my keeper rate is probably 75%. When I don't strobe (even in a "big-time" venue, with decent lighting), my keeper rate is markedly lower. Quantity does not always = quality.



very good point Dennis. I found that even with on board flash, my keeper rate doubled. good story about the lady with the point and shoot too. :lol:

Matt, that's too bad it was an issue. For being "rusty", I think you did a great job sans strobe. #4 in particular. #5 looks a little washed out (not vibrant) to me. As a parent, I'm not sure based on this set. From other work of yours, there's no doubt that I'd be spending lots on buying your images if the hosts were my kid. Your work is fantastic. Still, I think that if you could produce results like #4 consistently (and I know you can since I've seen some of those) then you are set to shoot anywhere even if the strobes get nixxed. It's a shame (without opening up a can o' worms) that images as good as #4 can't be used for MP. Ocassionally I print an 8x10 for my portfolio and just to make sure that the images parents might be buying are up to standard. I'd love to see how that image looks in print. I suspect that even with the 3200ISO, it looks sharp and relatively noiseless.

[topher04r1]

Wow ... neat to see the shots side by side like that .....honestly i think both versions are good but when artifical light is used i do think it creates more pleasing shadows

[gsgary]

I think the no strobe are much better and look more natural

[fugfuggy]

I shoot gymnastics where flash is strictly forbidden due to safety reasons. I don't think I would even know what to do if flash was allowed. That being said, the no strobe images look better to my eye but maybe because I am used to looking at images like that.

[williambeeler]

It may just be me, but on the strobe shots the shadows of the fans against the back wall are very distracting.

[avwh]

I like the no strobes better, too.

[dmwierz]

Folks,

It's not my place to sway anyone's opinion about strobe Vs. ambient, or even direct Vs. bounced. We all have our own opinions and they are all valid.

I will only qualify my opinion by saying that in my experience, adding artificial light done properly (in whatever form) will produce images that will outsell ambient light shots every time. Parents want their kids' faces to be clear and un-shadowed.

I happen to like bounced more than direct, and just for reference, here's a shot from last Friday shot with two bounced AB 800's. Disregard the copyright year - I haven't updated my CR brush.

http://www.pbase.com/image/91445075.jpg
70 mm
Exposure Time 1/250 sec
Aperture f/4
ISO Equivalent 640

[Sauk]

I without a doubt prefer strobed shots because the colors just look so much more vibrant instead of the dull colors that the normal crappy lights in most HS gyms produce.

I pm'd dennis about his bounce technique as I think I am still struggling with it while I think he nails it every time lol

[namasste]

I without a doubt prefer strobed shots because the colors just look so much more vibrant instead of the dull colors that the normal crappy lights in most HS gyms produce.

I pm'd dennis about his bounce technique as I think I am still struggling with it while I think he nails it every time lol

Agreed on the colors issue big time. Please post Dennis' thoughts on bounce technique if you don't mind. I (and I'm sure others) would love to try to emulate it to the best of our abilities.:D

[dmwierz]

Well, contrary to "popular" 'belief, I don't nail it every time. Of course I don't post my stinkers, and believe me, there are plenty. However, like I said above, doing artificial light the right way can produce a better image than any ambient shot (BTW, anyone paying attention to another thread I posted about a Sports Photography Podcast might be interested to know the next episode will focus on shooting indoor sports, and more specifically, how to deal with the challenges shooting inside).

Not to hijack the thread, but there are no real secrets, and in know way do I have all the answers. I just know what works for me. Everybody should try their own way, to get results they like, or that meet their customers' needs. Like shooting night HS football, there is a starting point, but from there, it's just a matter of analyzing your results, making adjustments and shooting some more. The more you shoot, the better you'll be able to know what to do when your shots aren't exactly what you were expecting.

I've shot at 8 different gyms and rinks this year and strobed them all. Each has it own issues (junk in the ceiling; odd colored ceiling; nowhere to plug in the strobes; dim ambient light; bright ambient light - yes, this can be a bad thing) and each of the puzzles were solve-able. Not all were ideal, but each of them were able to be strobed.

All I do is hoist the strobes in the air atop 13' stands (or mount them to something else with super clamps) and angle them at roughly 45 degrees to vertical. This angle is somewhat a function of how far away from the court the lights are. Farther away requires less of an angle - the closer to the court you are, the closer to vertical the lights are angled. I try to adjust this angle so the center point of the reflector is aimed at a point on the ceiling half way between the light and the top of the key and horizontally, I aim the lights at the top of the key.

I place them in the corners of the gym, behind the baseline if possible. You can use speedlites on the stands or with clamps when there is no electricity, and sometimes the speedlites don't have enough light to overpower the ambient sufficiently, and if this happens, I'll shift to firing the speedlites direct (although I haven't run into this situation yet this year). With the Alien Bees, I've used the 7" reflectors and the 11" ones. I get maybe one more stop of light out of the 11" ones since the beam width is narrower (something like 55 degrees Vs 85 degrees) which also helps to provide more light fall off in the background.

Prior to a game, I'll look at my shots, and sometimes I'll need to adjust the angle of the strobes, or even the power, if the shots are too hot or too dark. You can also play with the ambient exposure to some extent to control how the background looks (reducing the ISO or stopping down the lens will darken the background). Just last week, I shot in a gym where one of the corners had a big white wall behind one of the strobes, and I had to power this strobe down by a stop because I was getting odd shadows off the wall (it was acting like a big reflector to the light that was spilling out the back of the reflector).

I have been known to ask somebody to stand on the court before a game, or put a grey card on chair out there to focus on, just to check exposure (also a good way of shooting and choosing a custom white balance frame. I also use a handheld meter to get my ambient readings and to check the flash coverage, although I find the RF range of the Sekonic meter frequently fails to fire both lights.

Also, I'll shoot a couple images with no strobes or flash, and these should be pretty dark to very dark if you have your exposure settings adjusted properly.

Here's a summary (IMO, mind you) of the benefits of shooting ambient:
Able to fire a burst of shots without worrying about flash or strobe recycle
Able to move around freeely, to either side of the court, without worrying about strobe flare or being too far away from the strobes to get effective light.
It's cheaper (no need to buy more stuff).
Less time to set-up and tear-down, as in NO time.


Here are the minuses of using ambient light:

White balance may be a challenge (but this can be solved easily by doing a custom white balance).
The lights WILL cycle and change color, and there is nothing you can do about this. Even a CWB won't eliminate this phenomenon.
Your colors might look flat, your whites dingy and blacks too dark, to some.
You will be limited to somewhere around 1/500s (of course this is a generalization) shutter speed unless you're shooting at f/2.0 or larger aperture, and if you do this, your depth of field will be pretty small.
If you want higher shutter speeds, you'll have to shoot at higher ISO's, which will cause more noise.
You will have shadows that detract from image quality, especially on the faces (IMO, again).


Here are the benefits to using artificial light:

You can overpower ambient light, thereby eliminating the white balance issue.
Shooting with strobes/flash will also eliminate the lights color cylcing problem.
Providing more light to the scene will give you better color saturation; brighter whites and deeper blacks without losing detail.
You can stop your lens down to increase the depth of field. This is a real life saver in some situations.
Shooting off-camera flash or strobe eliminates red eye.
Providing you get 3 or more stops over ambient, your flash/strobe will stop the action. the flash duration is at slowest 1/1000s (again, approx - depends on the flash/strobe, and the power settting - but the slowest flash setting and power level still produces around 1/800s, and this is a 580EX at full power).


The negatives of using artificial light are:

It requires more equipment which means more money. Also means more stuff to haul to a game.
It requires more set-up and tear-down time.
Some may find the flashing lights distracting (especially on-camera flash).
It adds one more level of complexity to an already challenging situation in terms of getting everything set-up properly.
You need electricity if you're using AC powered strobes, or lotsa batteries for speedlites.
If done improperly, the shots can have an objectionable "flash" look.
You won't be able to shoot in high-speed burst mode since the strobes or flashes will require time to recycle.


Anyway, I've gone far enough of track. Hope this side journey was of some help.

Dennis

[Sauk]

Dennis,

At your next game can you please shoot your setup (without the flash firing). You wrote a very good how to and I appreciate it.

At my home gym I know where and how to aim to get what I want, but a lot of these gyms I have never been to so I spend a good amount of time (soph or jv game) getting it right for the Varsity game.

I have used both the 11 inch and 7 inch. I don't know which one I like to be honest. I almost feel like taping a white paper or something on the back part of the reflector so that no light is shot backwards and all light is going forward or up.

Have you ever thought about doing this or am I thinking crazy and it won't do a bit of good? lol

[namasste]

Dennis,

At your next game can you please shoot your setup (without the flash firing). You wrote a very good how to and I appreciate it.

At my home gym I know where and how to aim to get what I want, but a lot of these gyms I have never been to so I spend a good amount of time (soph or jv game) getting it right for the Varsity game.

I have used both the 11 inch and 7 inch. I don't know which one I like to be honest. I almost feel like taping a white paper or something on the back part of the reflector so that no light is shot backwards and all light is going forward or up.

Have you ever thought about doing this or am I thinking crazy and it won't do a bit of good? lol

Matt and Dennis, since we are talking reflectors here... if using speedlites rather than strobes, could I completely line my lightsphere with foil and use it as a kind of reflector for my speedlite?

[Sauk]

i think dennis would know better, but I don't think you want any reflector or diffuser on the flash at all. Again I might be wrong but I am sure Dennis can answer that better :)

[MJPhotos24]

Ahhh, that pretty much sums it up Dennis...was a good journey to explain.

[bigjon0107]

Matt and Dennis, since we are talking reflectors here... if using speedlites rather than strobes, could I completely line my lightsphere with foil and use it as a kind of reflector for my speedlite?

Just adjust the zoom on the speedlight, it is effectively the same thing

[namasste]

Just adjust the zoom on the speedlight, it is effectively the same thing

guess that's true. probably run them around 70-85mm depending how far back I place them. so much for my genius showing huh?:lol:

[dmwierz]

Dennis,

At your next game can you please shoot your setup (without the flash firing). You wrote a very good how to and I appreciate it.

Here are a couple of shots of the set-up that I took for use in my podcast. I have thought about placing some gaffer's tape around the area where the reflector attaches to the light. As you can see in this image, there is some light spilling out there. You can also see the white wall behind that was acting like a big reflector, causing some hot spots.

Scott, to some extent I agree with Matt, however a reflector (or even the LightSphere lined with foil) won't decrease the light at all since it is positioned behind the flash - it will effectively focus more of the light upwards (or whichever direction you're pointing the flash) and less to the sides. The reason why I said to some extent is that I haven't even need to do this. Try it, and take measurements with your light meter to see what, if any, impact it has on the level of light. You can control the intensity with the zoom, also, but I normally run it fairly wide (28mm? I don't remember). The MP article says to set it for 55mm or something close IIRC.