5D Replacement Already!!!

[M24]

Is it just me, or are there others out there who are chomping at the bit waiting for word on the successor to the 5D?!?! :rolleyes:

I wish someone would leak some legit info! I'm getting tired of the wait.

I've been saving my sheckles and if the 7D/5D MK II, or whatever they call it is priced reasonably, I'll probably be an early adopter.

I've got two crop bodies and really want a FF body to take full advantage of my L glass, of which, I have more on the way: the 24-105L which is stunning on the current 5D, but is just so so IMO on a crop body, though IQ is fantastic. I'm also going to get the 100-400 L soon as well and that lens really shines on FF bodies.

Here's what I'm hoping for in the 5D's replacement, it would be slam-dunk IMO if Canon has listened to what their customer base wants:

Take the best features of the 40D, throw in a little of the 1Ds MKIII -meaning a few more megapixels, though not much more is really needed, a faster frame rate, at least 5 fps -please!, but 7 or 8 would be sweet, bigger buffer, more bit depth, UDMI compatibility with dual card slots, move the LCD on the back of the body more toward the center and include a built in LCD cover like the Noinks do -I hate the nose prints I'm constantly wiping off my 40D, more C1,2,3,.... modes, a higher resolution LCD would be nice and is overdue -after playing with my friends Noink D300, I was jealous of the LCD quality. And honestly, it's just plain absurd and tacky that Canon uses the same LCD on the G9, 40D, 1D MKIII, and 1Ds MKIII -an $8K camera for Chrissake! Lastly, some improved ergonomics would be appricated, not everyone has square hands, though the current 5D doesn't feel bad, it's just a bit blocky after a long shooting session. Of course the deletion of the inane "print" button would be welcomed by all.

At the end of the day, if the new 5D was only just a hopped up FF 40D, I'd probably be on board quickly.

I guess the only other thing that would be nice would be if Canon made a new battery grip that fit and formed better and was also made of alloy instead of composite. There again, my friend's D300's battery grip fit like a glove and didn't move around at all. My BG-E2N grip on my 40D has some play in it no matter how much I tighten the thumbscrew.

Okay rant off. In spite of my losing my patience over this, I'd happily wait a few more months if Canon were to have a long hard look at the positive aspects of the new Noinks and really knock our socks off with the 5D replacement.

Thoughts?

Best,

Michael

[JeffreyG]

Keep in mind, Canon has updated the Rebels every 18 months like clockwork since the dRebel and the XTi will be 18 months old in February.

Nikon still has no competitor to the 5D. The D3 is analogous to the 1Dmk3.

[freddyco]

I am sure this thread will get moved to the rumor forums. But some actual fact has been eaked by Canon intentionally since the Nikon D3 hit. In recent weeks Canon execs in Japan, France, and China (I think) all confirmed in interviews that they are working on a 5D upgrade, with improved weather sealing, small bump in mp, that will be released at the same price point as 5D. Those are the only known facts, the rest is all rumor, unless I am mistaken.

PS, did you know that the next generation 400D/Kiss/XTi will record HD video? Called the 400DX according to unreliable industry sources.

[sapearl]

It will certainly be better and you'll pay a premium if you decide to be an early adopter. Have you read all the dozens of other threads>

[Neilyb]

I'm also going to get the 100-400 L soon as well and that lens really shines on FF bodies.

Er, if you call vignetting at 400mm shining then yeh go for it :| The AF system of the 5D also does not make this lens shine any better than on a Crop body...but apparently on a 1D body it does shine.

[sapearl]

Michael, the search feature is great for rumors that are being beat to death :lol: :

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=430411

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=428405

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=417949

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=424694

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=429399

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=425073

As good as Canon, Nikon, Mercedes, Lexus may be, I'd never want to be the first beta tester to run right out and buy one at top dollar price as soon as it hits stores.

[kato1]

I wouldn't rush in on a new model.
One you'll pay over the odds and two if there's going to be teething problems it's going to be with the first ones. 1DMkIII springs to mind.

[thatkatmat]

I wouldn't rush in on a new model.
One you'll pay over the odds and two if there's going to be teething problems it's going to be with the first ones. 1DMkIII springs to mind.

Agree'd, I waited for the mkIII and darn glad I did. That said, it's an exciting time for folks who are thinking of FF. I'm hoping for some updated lenses. Zooms in particular...err the EF 17-55/2.8IS or similar in particular:)
Cheers all!

[gregkendallball]

I'll just wait for one of those highly reputable online dealers to offer the 5D MkII/7D for $699, and buy one then. And when they tell me it's out of stock, or that I have to pay $99 for the battery, or $50 for the camera strap, I'll post on here as ask anyone if the price is too good to be true!

[JC4]

Keep in mind, Canon has updated the Rebels every 18 months like clockwork since the dRebel and the XTi will be 18 months old in February.

Nikon still has no competitor to the 5D. The D3 is analogous to the 1Dmk3.

I think the D3 is like a 5d and 1d combined, many features of both.

I don't see how Canon can make any significant upgrades to the XTi, without compromising the 40d. The XTi is just a step behind the 40d now. If they upgrade it, the only difference will be the form-factor, not enough to justify 2x the cost. I think it'll be fall before we see a new XTi, despite the usual timeline. Speculation, naturally.

I'm hoping for a winter/spring release of the 5D II

[ed rader]

Er, if you call vignetting at 400mm shining then yeh go for it :| The AF system of the 5D also does not make this lens shine any better than on a Crop body...but apparently on a 1D body it does shine.

i've done plenty of informal comparisons with the 100-400L on my 5d and 30d and i prefer the 5d images....and i think they look better.

today i will be "testing" 100-400L with my new 1d3 :D.

ed rader

[sadowsk2]

Is it just me, or are there others out there who are chomping at the bit waiting for word on the successor to the 5D?!?! :rolleyes:

I wish someone would leak some legit info! I'm getting tired of the wait.

I've been saving my sheckles and if the 7D/5D MK II, or whatever they call it is priced reasonably, I'll probably be an early adopter.

I've got two crop bodies and really want a FF body to take full advantage of my L glass, of which, I have more on the way: the 24-105L which is stunning on the current 5D, but is just so so IMO on a crop body, though IQ is fantastic. I'm also going to get the 100-400 L soon as well and that lens really shines on FF bodies.

Here's what I'm hoping for in the 5D's replacement, it would be slam-dunk IMO if Canon has listened to what their customer base wants:

Take the best features of the 40D, throw in a little of the 1Ds MKIII -meaning a few more megapixels, though not much more is really needed, a faster frame rate, at least 5 fps -please!, but 7 or 8 would be sweet, bigger buffer, more bit depth, UDMI compatibility with dual card slots, move the LCD on the back of the body more toward the center and include a built in LCD cover like the Noinks do -I hate the nose prints I'm constantly wiping off my 40D, more C1,2,3,.... modes, a higher resolution LCD would be nice and is overdue -after playing with my friends Noink D300, I was jealous of the LCD quality. And honestly, it's just plain absurd and tacky that Canon uses the same LCD on the G9, 40D, 1D MKIII, and 1Ds MKIII -an $8K camera for Chrissake! Lastly, some improved ergonomics would be appricated, not everyone has square hands, though the current 5D doesn't feel bad, it's just a bit blocky after a long shooting session. Of course the deletion of the inane "print" button would be welcomed by all.

At the end of the day, if the new 5D was only just a hopped up FF 40D, I'd probably be on board quickly.

I guess the only other thing that would be nice would be if Canon made a new battery grip that fit and formed better and was also made of alloy instead of composite. There again, my friend's D300's battery grip fit like a glove and didn't move around at all. My BG-E2N grip on my 40D has some play in it no matter how much I tighten the thumbscrew.

Okay rant off. In spite of my losing my patience over this, I'd happily wait a few more months if Canon were to have a long hard look at the positive aspects of the new Noinks and really knock our socks off with the 5D replacement.

Thoughts?

Best,

Michael
Personally,

I say don't buy the hype for the "latest and greatest" as the 5D is still an awesome camera second only to the 1D series (unless you need high fps).. The best thing is, is that its at a great price... The new 5D will be around $3k which is more or less your 24-105L lens....

[ed rader]

I think the D3 is like a 5d and 1d combined, many features of both.

I don't see how Canon can make any significant upgrades to the XTi, without compromising the 40d. The XTi is just a step behind the 40d now. If they upgrade it, the only difference will be the form-factor, not enough to justify 2x the cost. I think it'll be fall before we see a new XTi, despite the usual timeline. Speculation, naturally.

I'm hoping for a winter/spring release of the 5D II

the XTi had features that "compromised" the 30d.

ed rader

[JC4]

the XTi had features that "compromised" the 30d.

ed rader

True, and I picked it as my first dSLR because for me those features outweighed the form-factor(I know better now). Was the XTi released this close to the 30d?(assuming a new XTi is coming on 'schedule')?

[ed rader]

True, and I picked it as my first dSLR because for me those features outweighed the form-factor(I know better now). Was the XTi released this close to the 30d?(assuming a new XTi is coming on 'schedule')?


i don't remember exactly but i do seem to recall that the XTi reinforced that the 30d was a sideways move from the 20d. i think it's safe to offer newer features on your lower-end, smaller camera.

ed rader

[nicksan]

I don't think the XTi compromised the 30D or even the 20D.

IQ-wise, they are the same, however the xxD (20D & 30D) series has much better build, feel, better VF, ISO 3200, better noise handling, 5fps, and in the case of the 30D spot metering and 1/3 ISO increments. The only thing the XTi had "going for it" was the dust removal system which is really no big deal. The difference in MP also was mostly a non-factor.

They are targeted to different demographics...I am sure the XTi did steal some "thunder" from those who either couldn't afford the xxD or folks who just wanted a replacement for their p&s...The pricing and size of the XTi would be more attract to that crowd.

[ed rader]

I don't think the XTi compromised the 30D or even the 20D.

IQ-wise, they are the same, however the xxD (20D & 30D) series has much better build, feel, better VF, ISO 3200, better noise handling, 5fps, and in the case of the 30D spot metering and 1/3 ISO increments. The only thing the XTi had "going for it" was the dust removal system which is really no big deal. The difference in MP also was mostly a non-factor.

They are targeted to different demographics...I am sure the XTi did steal some "thunder" from those who either couldn't afford the xxD or folks who just wanted a replacement for their p&s...The pricing and size of the XTi would be more attract to that crowd.


i said features that compromised the 30d....more mp, self-cleaning sensor.

those features really appeal to the consumer...but i think more to the entry level person and that's why it's "safe" to offer advanced features on the rebel.

ed rader

[ben_r_]

Man... I dont know how I am going to resist buying a 5D Mark II as soon as it comes out... I am very worried about the Mark III happening again, but then I wonder.... since canon took so long to finally release the camera, maybe they got all the bugs worked out already? ;)

[chauncey]

They got burned once, do ya really think that they would let it happen again?

[M24]

Er, if you call vignetting at 400mm shining then yeh go for it :| The AF system of the 5D also does not make this lens shine any better than on a Crop body...but apparently on a 1D body it does shine.

One of my best buddies shoots a 5D with the 100-400L and from what I've seen it does indeed shine. As I understand it, pretty much all L series glass is underutilized on crop bodies. Sure, they make fantastic images, but the crop sensor does not take full advantage of the L glass.

[M24]

They got burned once, do ya really think that they would let it happen again?

I tend to agree here. Every camera maker goes down the firmware update road and some have had to suffer the black eye that Canon did with the 1D MKIII, but at least Canon stepped up to the table and is doing the right thing about it.

I'm betting that the powers that be at Canon are working very hard to make sure that their future models don't suffer the same fate.

Given that it will take many many months for the price on the 5D successor to come down, just like it will for the 1Ds MKIII, I'm going to be willing to jump in early on if the camera is competitively priced.

I have a contact at Canon USA, and though he will not, no matter how much I beg and plead, tell me a damn thing about the new models, he has told me that Canon's production design is far more modular than ever, hence the prices that the end user will pay will be lower -just like any technology product.

My whole point of my post -rant if you want to call it. :D Is that I'm really anxious to see what it will be and the rumor mill is KILLING me!

I want to round out my gear with a FF body and I don't want a 5D because I don't like the menu interface compared to my 40D, I'm not quite ready to spend 8K on a 1Ds MKIII, and in spite of the fantastic images 5Ds make, I'm betting that its successor will be stunning.

Best,

Michael

[miguelcandela]

I´m sure it´s going to be incredible...hehe

[rang]

Er, if you call vignetting at 400mm shining then yeh go for it :| The AF system of the 5D also does not make this lens shine any better than on a Crop body...but apparently on a 1D body it does shine.


Re: vignetting of the 100-400 @ 400 with the 5D...Huh???

I've been shooting this combo for over a year using a better beamer on wild life, BIF shots against bright blue sky etc. and the first test at a white wall to check for vignetting in the corners @ 400 various ISO's speeds ...with subsequent image peeping...never seen any vignetting.

Maybe I got lucky with my copy but I don't think that is the case.

[jwinty]

i wonder if they'll release the 5d evolution with a lenses that we haven't seen... much like how the 40d was released...

[sandpiper]

Re: vignetting of the 100-400 @ 400 with the 5D...Huh???

I've been shooting this combo for over a year using a better beamer on wild life, BIF shots against bright blue sky etc. and the first test at a white wall to check for vignetting in the corners @ 400 various ISO's speeds ...with subsequent image peeping...never seen any vignetting.

Maybe I got lucky with my copy but I don't think that is the case.

I've never had any vignetting with my 100-400L when used on the 5D either. It would also be odd for vignetting to occur at the long end, rather than the short, maybe it is just a problem on nealyb's outfit.

I have to say that I find the lens a good match with the 5D and it certainly seems to perform better on the 5D than my old 20D. Having said that, all my (EF) lenses seem to perform better on the 5D than on my 20D.

[col4bin]

I am looking forward to a new FF camera from Canon that is not a 1 series. For one thing, I cannot afford a 1Ds nor do I want one. I am in the market for a 2nd body and my only requirement is that it be FF. I realistically do not need it until the end of June so I will wait to see what happens. I have no problem picking up a 5D but since I have time there is no harm in waiting to see what comes out. Worst case scenario is I wait a little longer to pick up a 5D. Seems like a win-win for me.

[Bob-Hamlet]

I think I read somewhere that Canon probably will announce an EOS 3D and an EOS 450D on the 24'th of january, and that an EOS 7D will be released this fall. That way, people that have the fundings and wanting a small sized FF camera will spend their money on the 3D, and those that are not willing to spend too much will be happily surprised in the fall, and 7D sales will not compromise 3D sales. Hopefullt, the 3D will the same, or almost the same autofocus as the 1Ds :)

[freddyco]

I think I read somewhere that Canon probably will announce an EOS 3D and an EOS 450D on the 24'th of january, and that an EOS 7D will be released this fall. That way, people that have the fundings and wanting a small sized FF camera will spend their money on the 3D, and those that are not willing to spend too much will be happily surprised in the fall, and 7D sales will not compromise 3D sales. Hopefullt, the 3D will the same, or almost the same autofocus as the 1Ds :)

I think that is pretty accurate and also falls in line with the two conflicting rumors that I have been reading on Japanese sites. A "3D/5D MK II" to upgrade the 5D, and a "7D" to answer Nikon's D300. However still no answer in the same price category as the Nikon D3. Unless, the next gen 5D is a major redesign.

By the way, the rumor that the next XTi/400D will record HD video is sticking in Japan. Oh no! Thats as bad as the camcorder maker's infatuation of having video cameras capable of taking still frame shots! :eek:

[sapearl]

Yup - the rumors keep on churning and churning and Canon won't leak anything unless it suits them or runs up their bottom line.:lol: Matter of fact it wouldn't surprise me one bit if some of their marketting folks were "playing the competition" with misinformation and confusing R&D tidbits.

[rang]

I've never had any vignetting with my 100-400L when used on the 5D either. It would also be odd for vignetting to occur at the long end, rather than the short, maybe it is just a problem on nealyb's outfit.

I have to say that I find the lens a good match with the 5D and it certainly seems to perform better on the 5D than my old 20D. Having said that, all my (EF) lenses seem to perform better on the 5D than on my 20D.

Dunno...maybe it is a really, really thick UV filter in nealyb's kit?

OTOH, I agree about a good match up between the 5D and good glass. All my glass seems to match up well with my 5D. Especially compared to the XTi and XT bodies.
I just recently purchased a new 30D in the box, US warranty for $749.00 for a faster crop body as a spare to my 5D. I have to say behaviour of my glass with it compared to the 5D is pretty close.

So now I am happy.

[narlus]

so would the '3D/5D mk II' just have some incremental upgrades (probably Digic III, 14 bit, maybe a couple more bells), and the 7D a larger sensor and more substantial changes (larger MP, better AF, weather sealing?)?

just guessing here. let's hear yours.

[rang]

I am looking forward to a new FF camera from Canon that is not a 1 series. For one thing, I cannot afford a 1Ds nor do I want one. I am in the market for a 2nd body and my only requirement is that it be FF. I realistically do not need it until the end of June so I will wait to see what happens. I have no problem picking up a 5D but since I have time there is no harm in waiting to see what comes out. Worst case scenario is I wait a little longer to pick up a 5D. Seems like a win-win for me.

Yup, your in a good situation. Since I have one I haven't been following pricing on the 5D closely but my buddy is contemplating so he has.
He said that a few weeks ago prices were dropping on ebay but now they seem to have crept up.
My guess is that after PMA, if Canon announces and shows the 5D successor...prices on low milage bodes will drop (unless they actually "boost" the price up past $3k on the successor).
Pros shooting the newest 1D bodies will unload their original 5D's as the newer one will probably have similar controls and menuing to the newest 1D bodies making it more natural as a "spare" to them.

You'd probably score a first gen 5D for a killer deal in that situation.

-rang

[chauncey]

They have to bring out the new 5D at the show, what else could there be as the 5D is so old. They must boost the MP to the 18-20 range and improve light transmission and tonal range (14-16 bit).

And they must keep the price under $2800 as that's all I can afford. Yeah, your right, it's all about me!

[col4bin]

Yup, your in a good situation. Since I have one I haven't been following pricing on the 5D closely but my buddy is contemplating so he has.
He said that a few weeks ago prices were dropping on ebay but now they seem to have crept up.
My guess is that after PMA, if Canon announces and shows the 5D successor...prices on low milage bodes will drop (unless they actually "boost" the price up past $3k on the successor).
Pros shooting the newest 1D bodies will unload their original 5D's as the newer one will probably have similar controls and menuing to the newest 1D bodies making it more natural as a "spare" to them.

You'd probably score a first gen 5D for a killer deal in that situation.

-rang

as petty as this may sound, the menu layout is important to me. It would be nice to have a menu structure similar to my MIII for easier navigation when switching between bodies.

[sapearl]

Now, now - we understand and sympathize ;).

...... Yeah, your right, it's all about me!

[DSMITH131]

I keep telling ya they are not going to replace the 5D anytime soon. How much improvements can they make to it and not get too close to the 1D series. 5D is a cross over camera if improved to much they loose money. Why do you think they stopped at 10 mp on the 40D it ain't like they couldn't have upgraded it to the same sensor as the 5D. Knowing that a 5D Mark II with 14 mp was coming. I wouldnt look for a replacement for at lease another year when its time to replace the 40D

[Bob-Hamlet]

"I keep telling ya they are not going to replace the 5D anytime soon" (DSMITH131).

Well, I think there will be a new 5D MkII/3D/7D in jan/feb. The EOS-3 did not compromise EOS-1V sales, so we might see improvements in the 5D MkII comparable to the EOS-3, i.e more AF-points, better sealing etc, but not to the standards of 1D/Ds, but almost. People needing high fps or MPs will still buy the 1D/Ds camera...

Bob-Hamlet

[Who?]

I wouldn't rush in on a new model.
One you'll pay over the odds and two if there's going to be teething problems it's going to be with the first ones. 1DMkIII springs to mind.

Never really thought in those lanes until i read that. Might hold off for a while come to think of it.

I wonder how the XTi was like for example, when first released. Do not have any real early experience with that one.

[cyrn]

They have to bring out the new 5D at the show, what else could there be as the 5D is so old. They must boost the MP to the 18-20 range and improve light transmission and tonal range (14-16 bit).

And they must keep the price under $2800 as that's all I can afford. Yeah, your right, it's all about me!

I dun think it's only about you.. it's about competition and staying competitive..

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0801/08011105japansales.asp

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0801/08011102panasensorfab.asp

[chauncey]

I just read those before moving over here.

One thing I found interesting about that site was the fact that very few 5D and up cameras from either nikon or canon are listed in their "recommended" list.

Don't know if it's a cost factor, popularity or whatever.

Canon sure controls the P&S market though.

[sapearl]

I'm guessing it's a cost factor as you suggest.

Something as pricey as the 5D when it first came out as well as the higher end Nikons are NOT going to be considered popular by the rank and file because:

a. Many cannot afford them,
b. Most don't shoot pro, and don't need one, and
c. Many are are happy with perfectly good less expensive models because they don't understand or care what a more expensive body will deliver. And there is nothing wrong with any of this rationale.

Hasselblad was never popular with the masses for all of the above. And yet NASA handed Neil Armstrong a 500ELM to use instead of an Instamatic.:D

I just read those before moving over here.

One thing I found interesting about that site was the fact that very few 5D and up cameras from either nikon or canon are listed in their "recommended" list.

Don't know if it's a cost factor, popularity or whatever.

Canon sure controls the P&S market though.

[vreeke]

5d needs only more fps fore upgrading, i don't understand why people like so much buffer becouse all interesting movements off people or anymals are no more than about 2/3 second

so buffer ( i like RAW) for 25 frames will do

[sandpiper]

i don't understand why people like so much buffer becouse all interesting movements off people or anymals are no more than about 2/3 second



Perhaps it's because we don't all exclusively shoot people and animals. There are lots of situations where a big buffer is needed. Currently I have to use large Jpeg in such situations, when I would much rather shoot RAW.

[Dragos Jianu]

I keep telling ya they are not going to replace the 5D anytime soon. How much improvements can they make to it and not get too close to the 1D series. 5D is a cross over camera if improved to much they loose money. Why do you think they stopped at 10 mp on the 40D it ain't like they couldn't have upgraded it to the same sensor as the 5D. Knowing that a 5D Mark II with 14 mp was coming. I wouldnt look for a replacement for at lease another year when its time to replace the 40D

No one want to see their camera replaced. get over it. Even if we discount the brutal competition , the simple fact that we have so many "wanna upgrade : 40D or 5D" threads is proof enough that the 5D has become a dinosaur feature wise. Not everyone pixel peeps, not everyone prints huge. And the truth is, as even some/most owners of both cams claim, that the 40D outperforms the 5D in almost every respect for a little over half the price.

In the real world the arguments are "ok this camera is WAAAAY faster, offers way better features, costs half the price and delivers 95% the IQ. Deal". Not many people go "yea but it's FF, nothing else matters"...well except for those that paid top buck for an overpriced FF 30D.

So yea, Canon has to keep up or bail out. 2007 has been their worst year yet, starting with the 1D3 fiasco and up to the D3vs1D3 and 40DvsD300.

Canon needs a change in strategy. We're waiting.

[sandpiper]

My personal feeling is that the 5D will be replaced in the autumn, so a few months still to wait before the announcement.

This is simply an educated guess, based on the regular turnaround times for different models. The xxxD class are replaced every 18 months, which makes the new model (450D ?) due this spring and so likely to be in the january announcement. Whilst it is possible that the 5D would also be replaced then, I consider it unlikely as it would get all the press attention and reduce the impact of the new Rebel class. Also, the 40D isn't due for replacement until 2009, and 1D / 1Ds for quite some time (although a 1D IIIN is possibly on the cards in autumn, to lay the AF issue to rest once and for all).

If the 5D was also announced this month, that would leave a gap in autumn, with no new model (or perhaps the updated 1D IIIN).

this is, of course, all speculation. So is any other prediction or rumour about replacement schedules, until Canon actually makes an anouncement.

[Tom W]

..... How much improvements can they make to it and not get too close to the 1D series.....

I don't think that argument is very strong. Canon isn't competing with Canon - they're competing with Nikon, Sony, Pentax, Olympus, and Leica. And right now, Nikon is the one that is knocking on Canon's front door especially at the mid- to upper level.

I have a 5D now. I see a couple of avenues in my future. The 1D3, the future 5D Mk II (or whatever it's called), or the Nikon D3. Right now, I'm leery of the 1D3 due to the focus problem. If it's truly fixed, that becomes a viable option. The D3 is also a viable option, though changing systems can be costly so I'm holding back for now. But that camera is tempting, and I'm sure that many people with more money than I and less Canon glass are thinking about jumping as well.

Canon has to react to outside competition, not their own internal competition. Selling an extra 1000 1Ds3's isn't going to make up for losing 10,000 sales in the mid-high full frame market.

[chauncey]

Just some thoughts;

Now I don't have a clue how many professionals are involved in this post, nor do I have a clue what those Pros make, however my body man brother-in-law has over $30,000 in tools and makes about $40,000/year. Is that a common cost ratio for a professional photographer?

I'm just wondering why the number of posts and responces about the potential 5D. Why not just go on-line and order that 21MP I-Ds and be done with it.

That would boost Canon's stock and reputation and flood the market with used pro equipment that chumps like me would snap up.

Oops, got to go, the nurses are coming with my thorizine.

[sapearl]

Clhauncey, you come up with some of the best lines here :lol::lol::lol:.

I consider myself a part time pro, with two 5D bodies. I don't clear enough each year in photography to live on that alone (thank goodness for the regular FT job) but even for smaller items, I consider the cost of my purchases carefully.

To be eligible for buying, gear has to:

1. Give me capability I never had before,
2. Replace an item that has either busted or of no use to me,
3. Clearly increase my bottom line revenue (see #1).
4. Make shooting more efficient, easier, or save me time (also see #1)

I don't buy for the sure pleasure of collecting, like some of the folks here. There is certainly nothing wrong with that, but I don't have that type of discretionary income, and would rather invest it in my kids and 401K in that order ;). - Stu

......I'm just wondering why the number of posts and responces about the potential 5D. Why not just go on-line and order that 21MP I-Ds and be done with it.......Oops, got to go, the nurses are coming with my thorizine.

[chauncey]

Hey Stu, I would sure like some more responces to this.

It's a defensive mechanism.

[JeffreyG]

No one want to see their camera replaced. get over it. Even if we discount the brutal competition , the simple fact that we have so many "wanna upgrade : 40D or 5D" threads is proof enough that the 5D has become a dinosaur feature wise. Not everyone pixel peeps, not everyone prints huge. And the truth is, as even some/most owners of both cams claim, that the 40D outperforms the 5D in almost every respect for a little over half the price.

In the real world the arguments are "ok this camera is WAAAAY faster, offers way better features, costs half the price and delivers 95% the IQ. Deal". Not many people go "yea but it's FF, nothing else matters"...well except for those that paid top buck for an overpriced FF 30D.

I think this is pretty close. The 5D is still better image wise than the 40D, but the difference is so close as to be almost meaningless. Really, that ain't to bad for a 29 month old 5D technology against the 2 revision newer 40D. To my mind it suggests just how big the possibilities are for the next 5D.

Think back to how much the 5D trumped the 20D....and the next 5D should be the same offset from the 40D. Same processing with the larger sensor.

Right now the 5D is looking a bit dinosaur like on features against the 40D. The 5D is still an incredible camera for a lot of situations....but the feature set of the 40D is better for a lot of fast action stuff.

A new 5D with the FF sensor and the rest of the 40D feature set would be absolutely killer. Problem is, it will retail for a ton more money than the going rate of a 5D now. This continues to be Nikon's fault.

The D3 (and coming D3X) have zero impact on the 5D. These two FF bodies only compete with the Canon 1D and 1Ds. Nikon really needs to come out with a FF prosumer camera to put some pressure on Canon and drive down the price. Until then Canon is free to charge a lot for the 5D type.

[John_TX]

Look at it another way, since the 5D is at least 2.5 years old, Canon must have recovered their developmental costs for the 5D many times over. Depending on the volume of 5D's they moved, it could have absolutely been a cash cow for them.

Just think if they were to lower the MSRP $500-$750? They could easily more than make up the cost reduction by the substantial increase in product moving out the door (and in lens sales taken away from Nikon).

[chauncey]

John, that's a excellent point. Keep the 5D, drop the MSRP and introduce the "7D" at about $2700.

That way they would have two gravy trains.

[Bob-Hamlet]

Well, I think Canon will release a FF low-priced (1500-2000) consumer body that will generate high sales numbers and income to Canon. However, such a camera will have to be at least as great as the 40D, so a 40D FF camera, maybe 12 MP and 4-5 fps (named 7D?). However, such a move may not be considered as a great evolution of the 5D, so first Canon would have to release a 5D MkII or a 3D (with more pro-like features; perhaps more AF-points, 16MP, faster fps (6-7), better sealing etc) that will be pricy (2500-3000) and perhaps not generate as much money as the 7D, but that will get Canon credit. The 5D MkII/3D will be released before the 7D. I am in the market for a small-sized pro-AF body, so I will get the 5D MkII/3D.
Nikon will probably soon release a 20-25 MP body, but will surely also soon release a 5D/7D-like consumer body, perhaps not this year, but maybe next. Sony will also release a FF body, and since sony can not compete in the top pro-range, it will focus on the 5D/7D-market. Canon will get more competition in this segment, and cannot relay on the credit of old models...

[chauncey]

Bob, I going to plead ignorance here because I don't remember who makes nikons' sensors, but regardless they are limited to what they can buy, so, can they buy a 25-27MP sensor to go with that body?

[Bob-Hamlet]

Well, I Nikon made the FF-chip in the D3, but most chips are from Sony in the Nikon line-up, and they (Sony) are developing a 20-25 MP chip... So, the question is, will Sony release a FF camera before Nikon gets hold of the chip?

[Bob-Hamlet]

Well, according to some, the Sony chip is only 16-18 MP...Maybe Nikon will make their own chip again, after all?

Anyways, the competition is going to get tougher, and hopefully we will see a more diverse FF line-up in the year to come...

To speculate or not, that is the question!

[dbyrd]

It seems to me that Canon--after producing the only viable digital system--has been cashing in, but now it is crunch time. The new Nikons are seriously in the running, and, of course, Nikon knows how to make lenses. One of the guys in the camera store told me yesterday: people come in looking for the new Nikons. You don't have to sell them.

I would guess that Canon has the technology to meet the challenge. I look for a big Canon push with new features, upgraded specs, and lower prices up and down the line. They surely have a decent cash reserve to work with.

Canon started competing seriously with Nikon in 1971 when they introduced the F1. They took a subtantial part of the prosumer and pro 35mm market by producing competitive cameras and lenses cheaper. I have no rumors or inside knowledge, but I bought an F1 in 1974, and have owned a Canon system of one kind or another ever since. Canon has never been hesitant to push the new technology. It was Nikon's conservatism that almost did them in. I am guessing that by spring of 09, the entry level Canon slr will have specs fairly close to a 40D and up the line. It is time for Canon to make a big jump, and sell new cameras to people like me--still using a 20D. There is a relatively fixed number of buyers for SLRs. I used my F1 for 25 years. High tech outfits are locked into research and development that makes it necessary to keep camera users buying.

[cloose]

. There is a relatively fixed number of buyers for SLRs.

I disagree.
DSLR sales continue to grow every year, outpacing PNS growth.

[dbyrd]

I disagree.
DSLR sales continue to grow every year, outpacing PNS growth.

Sure, the sales of everything havebeen going up. With a recession already probably underway and Canon getting a squeeze from Nikon, strong companies pull out the stops to keep from losing market share.
db

[John_TX]

Third-Quarter Digital Camera Shipments to U.S. Rise 22 Percent


Tokyo, Japan— Third-quarter shipments of digital cameras to the United States increased 22 percent, reported Reuters, “driven by demand from consumers replacing older models at discounted prices, according to industry data.” Research firm IDC announced that camera makers shipped 8.4 million units, “fueled by customers desire for fashionable models with new features such as image stabilization.”
According to IDC, Canon Inc. remains the top-selling brand, with a 23 percent market share, followed by Sony at 18 percent and Eastman Kodak with a 15 percent share. IDC analyst Chris Chute said Kodak should have a strong fourth quarter, “benefiting from promotional deals during the holiday shopping season.” South Korea-based Samsung Camera saw its U.S. market share halved to about 4 percent, IDC said. Digital camera shipments in 2007 have been stronger than expected, reversing a trend of declining growth seen over the past four years. “The digital camera market is experiencing a growth renaissance,” said Chute, research manager, digital imaging solutions and services, IDC.

http://www.photoreporter.com/article.asp?issueID=94&num=21&vol=15&articleType=ts&articleID=1897

While I'm not sure how applicable this is to DSLR sales, I would assume they would be rising as well due to 2nd or 3rd generation P&S users wanting more out of their cameras and stepping up to a DSLR.

[M24]

Yesterday, I got word from a "guy who knows a guy" :D for whatever that's worth and I'm told it will be called the 7D, will be FF 16+ megapixels, and will be in the $3500 range. Got a few other details, but no specifics on FPS, etc. I'm told it will be shown in February in Vegas at the big show.

For whatever these rumors are worth, all I can say is that I still really hope that Canon will price the 7D as close to the D300 as they can, because even though it isn't apples to apples, the D300, at $1800 is quite a camera and Canon will knock Nikon's socks off if the 7D is priced in the $2500 range.

I for one will not be buying a 7D if they are $3500, at least not anytime soon. I do indeed want a FF body to round out my gear, but $3500 is too much IMO given that I know for a fact that production costs have decreased due to the modularity of the cameras.

If only one thing, if Canon uses the same cheesey 3" LCD that they run on the G9 and 40D, I'll REALLY be disappointed. After playing with my buddies D300, I think it does make a difference in the field and Canon needs to step up to the plate on that note.

A couple more weeks, and I guess we'll all know. As I meant in my original post, the wait is KILLING me!!!!

Best,

Michael

[sapearl]

You brighten my day :lol: - the old story again of the guy who knows the friend of the first cousin of the mother's brother's dentist who is friends with the Canon delivery man... like they're going to share their corporate secrets. The fellow is just showboating to impress him and anybody else who will swallow the latest rumor.

The only thing I DO AGREE with is that it won't be cheap. They realize they have a unique cash cow niche, regardless of so-called reduced production costs. Why should they pass that along when they can make an initial killing and pocket the profits - smart corporate strategy.


Yesterday, I got word from a "guy who knows a guy" :D for whatever that's worth and I'm told it will be called the 7D, will be FF 16+ megapixels, and will be in the $3500 range. Got a few other details, but no specifics on FPS, etc. I'm told it will be shown in February in Vegas at the big show......

I for one will not be buying a 7D if they are $3500, at least not anytime soon. I do indeed want a FF body to round out my gear, but $3500 is too much IMO given that I know for a fact that production costs have decreased due to the modularity of the cameras.......

[sapearl]

Well Bob, my own totally unsubstantiated opinion is that Sony would hog the really GOOD stuff for themselves ;). They might toss Nikon a nice bone, but would probably want to use the top of the line chips to beef up their own Alpha.

Well, I Nikon made the FF-chip in the D3, but most chips are from Sony in the Nikon line-up, and they (Sony) are developing a 20-25 MP chip... So, the question is, will Sony release a FF camera before Nikon gets hold of the chip?

[gdl357]

ALL Cameras will drop to half the price. They can't sell the new 5D at the old 5D intro price.

I say it will cost under $2800.00.

Once PCs' costed 3k, now they throw them at you at $500.00 and they are 100 times better. Same with the cameras.

[chauncey]

What I know for sure is that none of us know, but we can hope. Kinda like religion.

[Who?]

I say go ahead and charge whatever you feel is appropriate Canon, as long as it works properly in every respect upon release.

[sapearl]

Yup - you know they'll go ahead and do that anyway . The good news is that it will be designed to be competitive with Nikon in the neverending game of one-up-manship......... which only benefits us :D.

I say go ahead and charge whatever you feel is appropriate Canon, as long as it works properly in every respect upon release.

[ryanraphael]

Well, I Nikon made the FF-chip in the D3, but most chips are from Sony in the Nikon line-up, and they (Sony) are developing a 20-25 MP chip... So, the question is, will Sony release a FF camera before Nikon gets hold of the chip?


Exact term seemed to be "desgined" by Nikon.
No one knows who is the manufactuer.
While Canon always emphasize on "design and made by Canon"

[Tom W]

Exact term seemed to be "desgined" by Nikon.
No one knows who is the manufactuer.
While Canon always emphasize on "design and made by Canon"

Maybe Canon makes it. ;)

[sapearl]

Which in my mind implies better leadership, R&D and innovation in the field as opposed the company that lacks the capability.

......While Canon always emphasize on "design and made by Canon"

[pieq314]

Yesterday, I got word from a "guy who knows a guy" :D for whatever that's worth and I'm told it will be called the 7D, will be FF 16+ megapixels, and will be in the $3500 range. Got a few other details, but no specifics on FPS, etc. I'm told it will be shown in February in Vegas at the big show.Michael

I actually do not think Canon will introduce a 16+ mp camera this month. The reason: it will compete with its own $7k 1Ds Mk II. We will have to wait till the fall for that. Canon may announce a full frame camera (let's call it 7D) at a resolution similar to the current 5D at a price of the low $2k range (say initially at $2500). Anyway, we should see what happens in less than 2 weeks.

[Dragos Jianu]

I actually do not think Canon will introduce a 16+ mp camera this month. The reason: it will compete with its own $7k 1Ds Mk II. We will have to wait till the fall for that. Canon may announce a full frame camera (let's call it 7D) at a resolution similar to the current 5D at a price of the low $2k range (say initially at $2500). Anyway, we should see what happens in less than 2 weeks.

No, actually Canon has to worry about the other big boys. it's no longer competing with itself like it was 3 years ago.


Sony's 21MP FF body. Since Sony and Nikon share sensors we're bound to see the D3X real soon too ;)

[John_TX]

Sony & Nikon need to get on the lens bandwagon and give Canon a real run for their money.

[Dragos Jianu]

Huh ? 99.5% of the potential buyers couldn't care less that Canon has a 600mm f/4 IS for just 7.200$,you do realize that , right ? They all have all the usual nice glass, the ultrafast primes, the f/2.8 zooms plus a huge bunch of 3rd party (the cheap Tamron/Tokina/Sigma that people use to buy). Not to mention all the glass ins image stabilized on Sony.
I don't see your comment being valid, especially regarding Nikon. On the contrary, Nikon has much nicer glass then Canon right now.

[lostdoggy]

It would be ironic for Canon to come out w/ a 3D to compete against the D3.
High FPS weatherseal body FF sensor. 45 focus point. etc. for $1K less then the D3. But the down side would be the end of the 1DMK series.

[David Nicole]

Cut the grip from 1D, put a FF, lower fps to 5, improve high ISO, no mirror bug, put dual CF, lower the price by 1K ... TADAAA .. 3D :D

[Bob-Hamlet]

"It would be ironic for Canon to come out w/ a 3D to compete against the D3.
High FPS weatherseal body FF sensor. 45 focus point. etc. for $1K less then the D3. But the down side would be the end of the 1DMK series." (lostdog).

I agree - such a camera would sell like butter - but there seem to be a lot of people on the net claiming that Canon will NOT release another FF-body at PMA this year, that it will be a 7D in the fall. I really hope it is not true - I have been waiting for the 5D update for a long time now, and really feel Canon should make a small sized 1D (or pretty close), aka 3D!! According to some, the 5D update should have arrived at PMA, but since Canon just recently released 2 FF-bodies, and with all the problems with the 1D, maybe have not had the chance to finish the 5D update in time (lot of people fired as well, re-structuring the development departments ??), and maybe they got a bit of a shock with the Nikon D3 and D300 features/response to them, and want to post-phone the release of the 5D update, to make a more competitive camera - not releasing a 7D in the fall, but rather a 3D? Then the 7D may come in 2009...

If nothing happens at PMA, a lot of people will give up on Canon, and move to other manufacturers... (I might, if I can sell my Canon glass without too much loss)

[David Nicole]

Me too. I'm expecting to much time and ... nothing.
Nikon optics especially zooms are in a different league, prime quality optics. I want so much to put my hands on 14-24 and 24-70. D3 is exactly what I expected from Canon. PMA is decisive. If nothing happens i'll sell all bodies and accesories and keep optics. If not even in the late autumn still nothing to apear i'll sell and optics and move to Nikon for full time.

[sapearl]

You're that disattisfied with the bodies and it's hurting your work that much you'd take such a financial loss just to switch? I guess this is just something I don't understand, jumping systems like that. But then that's just me - I couldn't afford to move so quickly like that as it would be a major hit on the buttom line. I tend to stick with gear for while and see how far I can take it.

....... If nothing happens i'll sell all bodies and accesories and keep optics. If not even in the late autumn still nothing to apear i'll sell and optics and move to Nikon for full time.

[David Nicole]

After playing a little with the new Nikon's toys I know what I do not have: money for 1Ds and Canon features for my pocket.

Nikon's strategy is more wealthy; "pro" tools for everybody: D300 for advanced ones, D3 for action pro photographers.

I'm still with Canon only for those reasons:
1. gear investments (lenses, accesories)
2. low price FF.
3. overall image quality for the $. (but lack of AF, metering/exposure, ..)
. 1D & 1Ds are not for me because for those $$$ is not worth the investment for my style (1D lack FF, 1Ds: expensive, mpx i don't need, no higher iso)

[Bob-Hamlet]

Well, I will have to buy a FF-body before april, but if there is no 5D replacement at the PMA, I will not wait for a possible new Canon FF-body in the fall...I dunno, the Nikon D3 is tempting (I prefer high ISO over high MP - no 1Ds for me), but it is too big and clumsy...(the 5D size is perfect on the run) but, if the Nikon is the best option, I might go for it - I can't wait for a possible maybe body sometimes in the future...

So, lets hope Canon does the right thing!

[Bob-Hamlet]

Yeah, I never bought the 5D because of the poor AF (too few AF-points)...and have refused to buy EF-S lenses!

I have been waiting for the EOS 3D for a long time, but now I cannot wait any longer...funny Nikon should come up with a D3, is it not??

[sapearl]

Well, I think your reasons for remaining with Canon are quite sound and logical. These are solid strengths. I shot MF Hassy before migrating over to Canon dSLR's and while the it's not perfect I can't say that I've had any significant disappointments. Most problems have either been "user error" or learning curve :rolleyes:.

What do you mean though when you talk about "but lack of AF, metering/exposure"? Regarding AF, I just use the center AF point anyway, so multiple points is a non-issue for me.

I agree that you get a lot of FF bang for the buck with Canon FF. In addition to the wedding and event work, I enjoy urban landscape shooting and have been very happy with the 13x19 prints I am getting. I'd go larger but that's the limit of my R1800 ;).

.....I'm still with Canon only for those reasons:
1. gear investments (lenses, accesories)
2. low price FF.
3. overall image quality for the $. (but lack of AF, metering/exposure, ..)
. 1D & 1Ds are not for me because for those $$$ is not worth the investment for my style (1D lack FF, 1Ds: expensive, mpx i don't need, no higher iso)

[chauncey]

You guys need to determine what comprises IQ.

MP is high on list, as is noise reduction, 14 bit (dynamic range)

Nikon does compete in noise and 14 bit but the 12MP limit kinda hurts them. They can't even make their own sensors.

[personalexpressions]

Personally I'd love to see a 5D replacement but no higher megapixel... doing weddings and family portraits the 13mega pixel that is there is plenty enough for 30x40 prints, anything more would just bog down computer systems.

[sapearl]

I understand the importance of what goes into the objective/subjective cloud called Image Quality. And this is not a dig at you Chauncey, because I appreciate the point you are trying to make.:D

But in the REAL WORLD I know people who print absolutely beautiful images that they have created with their 20D, 30D, 40D etc. bodies. And these are images that go up to 16x20. Now, I've got the 5D with good glass and it still "lacks" the dream specs that are being suggested here. But I am printing these things 13x19 on my home printer and I'm astonished with the quality.

How much spec improvement can the human eye actually "see", when you economically balance this against the concept of bang for the buck? Specs for newer models are almost always bigger and better on paper, but unless you're going large poster or billboard size, does the viewer really see the difference?

[sapearl]

Welcome Steve - good to meet you :D. I get your drift, although the way the manufacturers do things you just know they'll give you higher MP. But I certainly do understand what you mean about those wedding files bogging down the old PC :rolleyes:.

Personally I'd love to see a 5D replacement but no higher megapixel... doing weddings and family portraits the 13mega pixel that is there is plenty enough for 30x40 prints, anything more would just bog down computer systems.

[John_TX]

Speaking of billboards, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a billboard photo shot with a 5MP or 12MP digital camera. The huge size of the printed pixels on a billboard simply blend together at 25+ yards.

[sboerup]

I'm telling you, if Canon doesn't update the 5D there will be one more Nikon switcher. The D3 is just lustful.

Give me:
-same sensor, increased DR and put Dust-Cleaner on it
-5 fps
-1 series AF
-better build and full weather sealing
-live view with AF
-14bits

I'll gladly give $3k for that camera, maybe even a couple.

If they added:
-1/250 sync
-built in PW
-8fps

I'd gladly pay $5k for that

[sapearl]

You're absolutely correct - it's all about viewing distance :D.

Speaking of billboards, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a billboard photo shot with a 5MP or 12MP digital camera. The huge size of the printed pixels on a billboard simply blend together at 25+ yards.

[sapearl]

Well then let me ask you the key question: how is NOT having the "dreamed of camera" hurting your current photography, that you find it's neccessary to switch? Will it make you a better photographer, more creative, or give you a better eye?

I don't care which platform you use either way, and I'm not against progress and innovation - I'm just puzzled by the constant need for more and more, when talented folks can often produce excellent images with the gear that's available. But then again I tend to be cheap, look for things on sale and work with what I have :lol:.

I'm telling you, if Canon doesn't update the 5D there will be one more Nikon switcher. The D3 is just lustful.

Give me:
-same sensor, increased DR and put Dust-Cleaner on it
-5 fps
-1 series AF
-better build and full weather sealing
-live view with AF
-14bits

I'll gladly give $3k for that camera, maybe even a couple.

If they added:
-1/250 sync
-built in PW
-8fps

I'd gladly pay $5k for that

[narlus]

I don't see your comment being valid, especially regarding Nikon. On the contrary, Nikon has much nicer glass then Canon right now.

dragos, you are either delusional or just like to spout stuff.

do f/2.8 lenses qualify as 'ultrafast primes' in your world?

Wide-Angle Lenses AF DX Fisheye-NIKKOR 10.5mm f/2.8G ED (http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=5&productNr=2148) AF NIKKOR 14mm f/2.8D ED (http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=5&productNr=1925) AF Fisheye-NIKKOR 16mm f/2.8D (http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=5&productNr=1910) AF NIKKOR 18mm f/2.8D (http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=5&productNr=1911) AF NIKKOR 20mm f/2.8D (http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=5&productNr=1913) AF NIKKOR 24mm f/2.8D (http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=5&productNr=1919) AF NIKKOR 28mm f/2.8D (http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=5&productNr=1922) AF NIKKOR 35mm f/2D (http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=5&productNr=1923)
of course they do have some fast (under f/2.8) primes that are manual focus, but that's hardly the same as USM.

[David Nicole]

What do you mean though when you talk about "but lack of AF, metering/exposure"? Regarding AF, I just use the center AF point anyway, so multiple points is a non-issue for me.

I agree that you get a lot of FF bang for the buck with Canon FF. In addition to the wedding and event work, I enjoy urban landscape shooting and have been very happy with the 13x19 prints I am getting. I'd go larger but that's the limit of my R1800 ;).

I do not always use center point AF due to the fast lenses making focus and recompose a nighmare so I need periferal focus points and well placed.

I love FF for the control of the DOF, isolate the subject; this is what I think is great IQ over the crop.

[lostdoggy]

Did miss something in 2007, Canon released 2 FF body??? As I recalled only one was released in 2007!!!

[sapearl]

That explains it - I understand better now; thanks ;).

I'm doing mostly wedding, event and landscape...... hardly action photography. I'll hazard a guess that you are doing something a bit faster like sports, birds, wildlife or young children :lol:.

I do not always use center point AF due to the fast lenses making focus and recompose a nighmare so I need periferal focus points and well placed......

[VTSHEP1]

I have printed large images from a 20D and they are great, but even with interpolation, there are limits to the size that i dont like.

I do want poster size, and larger if possible. I have a loft with 12 foot ceilings, unlike a billboard, the viewing distance will not be 25 feet. I suppose i could stitch a bunch of images together...but if there is something in the scene moving, forget about it.

The tradeoff between high IQ and lower IQ but higher MP would be an incredibly difficult decision for me.

Not spending $8K on a 1DsmkIII, as this is currently a hobby, is not a difficult decision to make. But the D3 is dangling somewhere on the edge of my elasticity range right now.

But in the REAL WORLD I know people who print absolutely beautiful images that they have created with their 20D, 30D, 40D etc. bodies. And these are images that go up to 16x20. Now, I've got the 5D with good glass and it still "lacks" the dream specs that are being suggested here. But I am printing these things 13x19 on my home printer and I'm astonished with the quality.

How much spec improvement can the human eye actually "see", when you economically balance this against the concept of bang for the buck? Specs for newer models are almost always bigger and better on paper, but unless you're going large poster or billboard size, does the viewer really see the difference?

[BugEyes]

I do not always use center point AF due to the fast lenses making focus and recompose a nighmare so I need periferal focus points and well placed.

I love FF for the control of the DOF, isolate the subject; this is what I think is great IQ over the crop.

I second that, also the only reliable focus point in the 5D seem to be the middle one and I would wish for the rest to be as good.

[NickSimcheck]

Uber ISO, Low noise, wide dynamic range. = Winner

Over priced, high MP, high FPS = Looser

Canon knows where the 5D's roots lie, they just need to improve on what made the 5D a great camera in the first place.

[Dragos Jianu]

dragos, you are either delusional or just like to spout stuff.

do f/2.8 lenses qualify as 'ultrafast primes' in your world?


You are seriously misquoting me. I said they both have ultafast primes AND fast f/2.8 ZOOM.
Is misquoting me like that just sloppy reading or intentional?

As for lenses they actually have better, higher quality zooms:


http://www.photozone.de/images/8Reviews/lenses/nikkor_2470_28/mtf.gifhttp://www.photozone.de/images/8Reviews/lenses/canon_2470_28/mtf.gif



http://www.photozone.de/images/8Reviews/lenses/nikkor_70200_28vr/mtf.gifhttp://www.photozone.de/images/8Reviews/lenses/canon_70200_28is/mtf.gif

Looking through your gear list i don't see anything so Canon-specific that Nikon just wouldn't be able to deliver. On the contrary, looking through your gear list, the Nikon version of your lenses are actually a lot better.
Yea, so they miss a 35 f/1.4 L. Canon has it, yet you own the Sigma. I wonder why, afterall you're sticking to Canon because they have more lenses.

Next time please take the time to actually ready my post before flaming me, calling me delusional and misquoting me. Thank you

[ryanraphael]

You are seriously misquoting me. I said they both have ultafast primes
.....................




Sorry for disturbing you, but I would like to remind you that those results are not cross system comparable.Make sure you read the background informaiton before using any test results.
Besides, using big bolded red fonts is not a good practice.

[Tom W]

Dragos, You continuously whine about how bad Canon is and how great Nikon is. If you don't like Canon's products, why do you own one?

I believe that you belong at this web site:

http://www.nikonians.org/

[danielyamseng]

Dragos, You continuously whine about how bad Canon is and how great Nikon is. If you don't like Canon's products, why do you own one?

I believe that you belong at this web site:

http://www.nikonians.org/
probably he has lot's of canon lenses and can't afford to make a switch:)

[sapearl]

Impressive charts.... I guess....:rolleyes: Go out and take more pictures. Enjoy your gear and have fun. That's what I do.

[Trout Bum]

Dragos, You continuously whine about how bad Canon is and how great Nikon is. If you don't like Canon's products, why do you own one?

I believe that you belong at this web site:

http://www.nikonians.org/

Tom, you beat me to it... maybe there should be a new thread, "Canon sucks, Nikon rules". I won't be subscribing...

[David Nicole]

C'mon, don't be so cruel. The guy is trying to say that Canon had the power to evolve and they prefered to make money on your back and spoil you with minor upgrades. Since 10D and 1D there was no major step made in this line.
On the other hand, Nikon, all they had in mind, they did and they did it in the photographer's will.
I'm not saying Canon is useless now, but rather boring. They are still no.1 at least in the market, and all their marketing is helping them now. Even with hands down they still make it because of the gear investment we made in years.

[gpx4]

I guess if we honestly ask ourselves the question, "If I were to start from scratch today, what system would I choose?".

However, the answer might change again come January 24th.

[chauncey]

It is easy to find Canon's sales percentages in various catagories, ie, P&S, Prosumer, Professional, etc.

Anyone know about profits and profit margins in those same catagories and/or profit margins on the individual products.

It would give an indication on which area that they think the best place to put R&D monies would be.

[gardengirl13]

I guess if we honestly ask ourselves the question, "If I were to start from scratch today, what system would I choose?".

However, the answer might change again come January 24th.

Exactly! If I had to start over I would have just bought the 5D to begin with. I'm waiting with baited breath to see what happens next week.

Uber ISO, Low noise, wide dynamic range. = Winner

Over priced, high MP, high FPS = Looser

Canon knows where the 5D's roots lie, they just need to improve on what made the 5D a great camera in the first place.

I agree with this. I want higher ISO with better noise, I'm not interested in higher MP or FPS.

Of course if the price is real high it'll just be the current 5D for me. But alas even then I'm still dreaming. :rolleyes:

[narlus]

You are seriously misquoting me. I said they both have ultafast primes (sic)

did i misquote you now? i even added the clarifiying typo remark.
Looking through your gear list i don't see anything so Canon-specific that Nikon just wouldn't be able to deliver. On the contrary, looking through your gear list, the Nikon version of your lenses are actually a lot better.
Yea, so they miss a 35 f/1.4 L. Canon has it, yet you own the Sigma. I wonder why, afterall you're sticking to Canon because they have more lenses.

just because i don't own it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. you missed the 24 f/1.4L lens too.
Next time please take the time to actually ready my post before flaming me, calling me delusional and misquoting me. Thank you

i wasn't talking zooms, i was talking primes (ultrafast primes, as you said...can you show me these Nikon equivalents?). somehow you got confused and decided i was attacking you.

[sandpiper]

I guess if we honestly ask ourselves the question, "If I were to start from scratch today, what system would I choose?".



I would still choose Canon. I prefer the Canon philosophy to the Nikon one, it suits me better.

Nikon like to compete on spec sheets, they add toys and try and 'outperform' Canon by having more MP, or 'lower noise' on the new cameras. Their FF camera can shoot at higher FPS than Canons (of course, you have to switch it so that it only uses part of the sensor when in fast mode, but people only read the fast FPS) So, yes, the cameras look great when you read about them.

However, more MP is nice but can be at the expense of IQ. The new Nikons do exhibit less noise at high ISO, but at the expense of a soft image. Sharpen them to the same level as the Canons shot and the noise is the same, you can match Nikon noise levels by simply running a Canon image through noise ninja and control it more, by selectively reducing noise and keeping sharpness where you need it. You lose that control with a Nikon, it's ALL soft.

Nikons philosophy is to look great on a spec sheet, even if that compromises IQ a little.

Canons philosophy is to look great in the image produced. They don't compromise design to sound better, they just produce cameras to create the best image they can. This isn't to say that Nikons don't also produce great results, just that most of the bells and whistles that people are drooling over, are largely ineffective in producing improvements in the image.

Also, Canon does the lenses I want, Nikon doesn't. My most used lens is the 100-400L which, according to the reviews I saw recently, is superior to the Nikon equivalent (80-400 VR I believe). The Nikon is noticeably slower to focus (a big concern with BIF shots). The Nikon lens also doesn't seem to have a panning mode with the IS, which would be a very big issue for me as well. Having now got a fair selection of basic lenses, I am starting to go for the 'big guns', so far I have only got the 300 f2.8 IS but I am after the 500 f4 IS next. In the UK, the Canon version is £3,999 but the Nikon one is £5,499, that's £1,500 more. It will take some time to raise the funds for the Canon, I could never justify the expense of the Nikon.

No, Canon still produces what I want in a system, so I would go with them again now, if I was starting out fresh. Yes, there are some things about the new Nikons I like (the LCD screens for example), but none that will actually give me noticeably better results. I see some people above saying that if a new 'super 5D' isn't announced this month, they are going to sell their Canon stuff and buy a Nikon system. Fair enough, if they believe that will bring them better results then so be it. What will they do when the new 5D is announced a little further down the line? Sell the Nikons and switch back to Canon.

Guys, you can get great results from Canon OR Nikon, they will do it in different ways and each brand will have a slight advantage in some areas of course. The way to improve your photography is to get out there and shoot, practise, experiment and learn how to get the best out of whichever camera you have. Buying the latest hi-tech wonder won't turn you into a great photographer.

Sure, a new generation body will allow you to shoot in circumstances that a several year old body will struggle with, but even an old 10D can still produce stunning results when wielded by a good enough photographer.

I use a 20D and a 5D, neither will be replaced until they die. The 40D is nice and has some features that I could use, but I am perfectly happy with the quality of the 20D results so I am in no rush to switch. Likewise, I am sure the new 5D, when it is announced, will have some new stuff on it that I would like. My current 2 year old 5D produces all the quality I need though, so again I won't be rushing to replace it.

[personalexpressions]

Well when I say bogging down... I'm not talking about really slowing down the system but filling up all the hard drive space. I know any new cameras will have higher MP my dream would be the 5D now but with improved performance at hi iso .... ah I know I'm a dreamer but isnt' it nice to dream. Oh and it's a Mac... :)

Welcome Steve - good to meet you :D. I get your drift, although the way the manufacturers do things you just know they'll give you higher MP. But I certainly do understand what you mean about those wedding files bogging down the old PC :rolleyes:.

[gpx4]

Thanks sandpiper for your insight. But as we wait and discuss all these, several of my friends who have tried out the D300 and D3 have just decided to dump all their Canon gears even at a loss.

I intentionally did not want to fiddle around too much with their cameras just to avoid future dilemma. But all this shifting gears is trying to tell me something, Canon has been left out.

They figured out, even with a new 5D replacememet in a month or two, the specs would not be that revolutionary as Canon will try to stifle it again so it will not compete/exceed the 1DM3 / 1DsM3 overall specs.

[sapearl]

I guess money doesn't mean that much to them that they can dump gear on a whim, based on a combination of no information, wild speculation and misinformation :rolleyes:. Ye who have so little faith....

Thanks sandpiper for your insight. But as we wait and discuss all these, several of my friends who have tried out the D300 and D3 have just decided to dump all their Canon gears even at a loss.
.......

[cyrn]

I guess money doesn't mean that much to them that they can dump gear on a whim, based on a combination of no information, wild speculation and misinformation :rolleyes:. Ye who have so little faith....

It's a fact that the D3 (at least) is a much batter cam. Those who do not require super tele shooting would be better off with Nikon combi from 14mm-200mm /f2.8 in 3 lenses that are very good.

Of course, if you are into shooting with fast primes like 24/1.4, 50/1.2, 85/1.2, then you have to stick with Canon as Nikon still have no similar offerings.

For pixel peepers, only 1Ds3 would satisfy, only problem would be how many peepers are willing to pay for the cost of 1Ds3.

[Bob-Hamlet]

At the end of the day, the only thing that counts is if your images are memorable, if they struck a cord in your heart or mind (or generated sales :) ), not the system used to get them. Or?

In the film days, I did not care about the body (except for AF), it was the emulsion that was of concern. However, with the advent of digitals, we choose cameras based most strongly on the sensor IQ, but lately it has been increasingly apparent that the rest of the body matters as well - if the Canon screws up the AF-system (as in the 1D III), and are unable to fix it, then what else can't they fix or figure out?. Will the next camera have major issues? Now we depend more on the camera for the image quality - the creativity should be the focus in photography - so give us a digital camera with all the features and reability of the old EOS-1V (small size, big viewfinder (FF), fast AF, lots of AF-points etc, extra bells and wissels may be included if Canon think it is a sales advantage, I don't care).

Lets hope there is a surprise at PMA!
(Still, I think it is a special feeleing seing those slides on the light-table - digital can't beat that)

Happy shooting!

[BugEyes]

If I was to start over today with an empty camera bag and the money I spent on Canon, then I would sit tight another week. If nothing interesting happened on jan 24 I would probably go with Nikon.

The D3 with two good zooms (24-70 and 70-200) would do all I need, no more need for fast primes to control the low light situations.

However I have too much invested in Canon to switch easily, hoping for Canon to come up with something similar.

[danielyamseng]

Still go for canon, but will wait until a decent/matured body on 1D series and grep it

[DSMITH131]

:~( holding breath

[sapearl]

Careful - you'll pass out :lol:.

:~( holding breath

[M24]

:~( holding breath


Yeah, me too. I'll be looking on the 'Net late tomorrow night to see what I can find. I've got a contact in Japan that I'm going to see if I can get on the phone as well.

I'm not going to pass out though, instead I'm going to have a drink! I just got a couple bottles of Suntory Hibiki whiskey in from Japan. Ummm, good!

:p

Michael