Portable storage devide on high altitude

[silvioi]

Hey guys
I would like to receive feedback from users that had
experience with portable storage device (hard drive based) on high altitude (over 3000km/10,000ft), mostly on the hard drive function
if you had any problem using it (because as known recording to manufacture specs hard drive have problems operating over this altitude due to air pressure, also I mean using it outside air planes, since air plane cabinet has pressure controlled).
the question can also refer to laptop or ipod usage at this altitude & above since both uses hard drive and are equal to this issue.

thanks to everyone that helps.

silvio.

[rhys]

Personally I would not risk it because the manufacturers know what they're doing.

If you need high-altitude storage them may I suggest a flash hard drive?

[silvioi]

Personally I would not risk it because the manufacturers know what they're doing.

If you need high-altitude storage them may I suggest a flash hard drive?

thanks but I am going on a 4 month backpack trip, which the altitude issue gonna come up during 20 days trek - with no computer access of course, so flash storage gonna be very limiting, I rather go on a large PSD, would fit my needs & the trip type better.
Just the altitude issue is a problem, I am planning to go with a backup
hard drive, that would have me covered in case of HD failure.
But other then manufacturer spec I heard also heard the opposite so I would like to hear others real life experience before trying my self :rolleyes:

[JohnJ80]

The problem with high altitude is that the components cannot get enough thermal capacity in the air flow in the thin air to keep cool. While it would work, the question is for how long? Drives actually use some pretty high currents (for short periods) while reading and writing. The internal components would heat up quite quickly.

I'd think you should contact the disk drive company of the disk drive you will be using and ask them what would happen. I think it would be a very big problem if you loaded up the PSD and then the electronics in in the drive died.

The other problems is that the heads essentially "fly" above the surface of the disk. If there is insufficient air to provide enough lift - head crash becomes more likely. Again, ask the drive mfgs.

I haven't looked around, but I think there are devices that burn DVD's or CDs directly. They may not have that altitude requirement.

Finally, if you make an estimate of the number of shots you might take, then if it were, say, 2000 over the twenty days, you could do it with 3 8GB CF cards (or close to that).

J.

[rhys]

Don't forget CF cards come in 32GB sizes too. Also if this is a once in a lifetime trip then don't skimp on the cheap things like memory cards. By the way, how are you going to recharge your camera batteries?

[sparksdjs]

A good story about high-tech gear and altitude issues here:

"Geek on Everest - A tale of High Tech vs. High Altitude"

http://www.ueverest.com/camp_life.aspx?postId=19

Dave

[kuanyu]

Interesting read sparksdjs, thanks for the link

[foxbat]

I've used a digimate at 3000m with no issues, although it was only powered long enough to download the images plus it was so cold up there that I was more concerned about the battery life than any kind of overheating.

[silvioi]

thank you Dave for the link, interesting.

Don't forget CF cards come in 32GB sizes too. Also if this is a once in a lifetime trip then don't skimp on the cheap things like memory cards. By the way, how are you going to recharge your camera batteries?

I know but as always in life budget issue is also a factor and 32GB doesn't ease on that :), I will try to have
enough CF with me at least for the part of the trek that would be at high altitude, along with the PSD for the rest, I know that there are stand alone DVD/CD burner but I think PSD would fit my needs better.
Battery I feel that I cover that issue, I got the nexto PSD with an internal battery and another two external batteries and for my 30D I got 3 batteries so I think that should last, also I know that you can find electricity every couple of days so even with lower performance due to cold ,I hope three batteries will be enough.

anyway if possible please I would the thread to be more informative on first hand experience on the hard drive issue rather then my own personal preparation to the storage method, so if anyway else has experience with this please do share :)

[rhys]

I don't use portable hard drive solutions because of the problems with hard drives. I'm a computer technician and I've seen so many dead hard drives that I wouldn't trust one beyond the manufacturer's specs. The manufacturer specifies maximum 10,000 feet and that's the maximum altitude you should use it at. I believe this even applies to laptops in flight in pressurised aeroplanes.

[Wilt]

Best to bring along a battery charger that can accept 100-240VAC as well as 12VDC for maximum flexibility in your power sources when you find one to charge up the batteries! 20 days on 3 batteries will force the need to recharge somewhere, depending upon how itchy a trigger finger you have (and a lot of dSLR shooters have very itchy trigger fingers, judging by the number of cameras that get 25000 shots in a year!)

The tactic of relying upon CF cards for those portions of the trek over 10k' is a good one. One scientist who did tests for operational capability at the observatory in Hawaii (Mauna Kea) could not find disk drives that were operation at 5600m, although that is significantly higher than 10000'. Using the PSD below 10000' would make sense, to clear the CF for the photos above 10k'

My understanding is typical harddrives are rated only to 3000m, and only automotive-grade harddrives bear any chance of getting up to 5000m, One chronicle by a university professor, which I read, was about his adventures when his harddrive would not work at all in Tibet at 3650m.

[sparksdjs]

Seagate has a 2.5" drive rated to 5000m:

http://www.xpcgear.com/980817sm.html


Dave

[Wilt]

Seagate has a 2.5" drive rated to 5000m:

http://www.xpcgear.com/980817sm.html


Dave

Trick is, how do you find a PSD that comes with a drive rated to 5000m, when most drives are rated to only 3000m ?!

[silvioi]

Trick is, how do you find a PSD that comes with a drive rated to 5000m, when most drives are rated to only 3000m ?!

buy just the PSD empty without hard drive, some PSD can be purchase this way.

thank you Dave

[JohnJ80]

I don't use portable hard drive solutions because of the problems with hard drives. I'm a computer technician and I've seen so many dead hard drives that I wouldn't trust one beyond the manufacturer's specs. The manufacturer specifies maximum 10,000 feet and that's the maximum altitude you should use it at. I believe this even applies to laptops in flight in pressurised aeroplanes.

I'm an electrical engineer with OEM experience in both the HDD(hard disk) and IC business.

The specs on equipment now are there for a reason. With the performance requirements of current systems, the specs that are established are not arbitrary. Operating these units out of these specs means that you will have a significant chance of failure. On a HDD, the failure will likely be catastrophic (head crash). Additionally, I'd be careful at higher altitude in terms of any vibration on the HDD at higher altitudes even below 10,000'. the air is thinner and I would suspect that this would make the drive more susceptible to vibration failures while operating.

I would definitely not plan on use of the PSD above 10,000'. You can see the issue in the previous excellent link on technology on Everest where they observed failures at 12,500'. Not a lot of margin.

If I were to take a PSD on this trip, I'd not use if over 10K' and keep enough CF cards to be able to cache my images until I could get below 10,000 to use the PSD.

Using your HDD in commercial pressurized aircraft is fine. They are usually pressurized to between 5000-8000' equivalents.

J.

[nadtz]

I was recently above 10,000ft in colorado with a hyperdrive (the older hd70) and it worked fine. Because the device was not constantly on, it was only on when dumping data, the HD never got super hot (though a bit warmer than usual) and its been fine since. Id have been much more wary of taking my laptop that high for constant use, but there were people with laptops in the ski areas and Im not aware of anyone losing HD's while I was there. Granted YMMV on this one, this is just what I observed in about a week in the mountains.

[JohnJ80]

The probability of failing when you exceed the spec is statistically determined. One sample is not valid. Generally, specs are written with a little guard band on the spec. Once you get thru the guard band, failures increase dramatically.

I think from reviewing the data after this thread started, I'd be much more worried about the thin air causing problems with the head assembly over the surface of the disk. If the air is too thin (over 10K'), the head can crash - and that is catastrophic. Note that the barometric pressure probably plays a role in this - in other words at a low pressure day (cloudy/stormy), you probably have a lot less margin than on a high pressure (clear/cold) day. This can obviously impact results.

Note - most ski area bases are well below 10,000' - closer to 8-9000' with a few exceptions (ski cooper for one).

Bottom line - usage over 10,000' you are taking a significant risk on damaging the drive.

J.