Manipulations Forum

[TheReal7]

I would love to see a Manipulations sub forum added to the Photo Sharing forum.

Who is with me? :)

[Skip Souza]

Manipulations?

[TheReal7]

Yup....photo manipulations...to the point it isn't a photo any more.

[Karl C]

Unless there is a large enough demand, Pekka will not create a separate forum.

[Skip Souza]

This looks like the right place for that type of images.

Still Life, B/W & Experimental (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=31)
What do you shoot when it's raining outside?

[flipstyle72]

or even just a trick photography section?

[Karl C]

or even just a trick photography section?

Still Life, B/W & Experimental (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=31)

:idea: :shock:

[TheReal7]

Yes....:rolleyes:


I am talking about stuff created from scratch....stuff that isnt really photography anymore but rather art or designs.

Get it now????

[kevin_c]

So it's not actually photography then... ??? :-)

I doubt there is much call for a separate forum for this personally.

[Skip Souza]

Yes....:rolleyes:


I am talking about stuff created from scratch....stuff that isnt really photography anymore but rather art or designs.

Get it now????

Check me if I'm wrong but isn't this CANON DIGITAL PHOTOGRAPHYFORUMS?

[asysin2leads]

This looks like the right place for that type of images.

Still Life, B/W & Experimental (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=31)
What do you shoot when it's raining outside?

Check me if I'm wrong but isn't this CANON DIGITAL PHOTOGRAPHYFORUMS?

Yes....:rolleyes:


I am talking about stuff created from scratch....stuff that isnt really photography anymore but rather art or designs.

Get it now????

I don't think this guy is getting the point. Must be related to my ex-wife.

[CannedHeat]

I don't think this guy is getting the point. Must be related to my ex-wife.

A big LOL. You too, huh? /Dan

[Karl C]

I don't think this guy is getting the point. Must be related to my ex-wife.

Or a slight reading comprehension issue...

:lol:

[CannedHeat]

Or a slight reading comprehension issue...

:lol:

Gaaaa! DOH!! Oops!!! :D ;)

[Radtech1]

I would love to see a Manipulations sub forum added to the Photo Sharing forum.

Who is with me? :)

I vote that this is a GREAT idea!

Unless there is a large enough demand, Pekka will not create a separate forum.

We have "Birds" even though we have "Nature and Animals", we have "Motorsports" even though we have sports. There is plenty of precedent for pointlessly creating a new category even though we already had an appropriate existing category.

This looks like the right place for that type of images.

Still Life, B/W & Experimental (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=31)
What do you shoot when it's raining outside?

Well, first off "Still Life", "B&W" and "Experimental" shouldn't be awkwardly lumped together. They should be allowed to have their own forums.

And Skip, why would Manipulations be defined as experiential. Take a look at the first 3 shots on THIS THREAD (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=423528) - taken by themselves they would definitely qualify as manipulation, but not experimental.

I think a Manipulations forum is a perfect fit for us! A place to show off/ask about post processing creativity - regardless of it's extent - from minor touch ups to full-on digital art!

Second the motion!

Rad

[Radtech1]

I don't think this guy is getting the point. Must be related to my ex-wife.

Read the Rules:

4. (The "don't be a jerk" language)

6. Though we encourage members to engage in healthy debate, we do not condone personal attacks on members. Ideas can be disputed or challenged, but attacks on a personal level are unacceptable and when they are discovered or brought to the attention of the staff, will be dealt with accordingly. Ideas can be attacked, but individuals cannot.

[CannedHeat]

Read the Rules:

4. (The "don't be a jerk" language)

6. Though we encourage members to engage in healthy debate, we do not condone personal attacks on members. Ideas can be disputed or challenged, but attacks on a personal level are unacceptable and when they are discovered or brought to the attention of the staff, will be dealt with accordingly. Ideas can be attacked, but individuals cannot.

Point of discussion: instead of whining to a moderator being considerate of the fact the moderator staff is already stretched, isn't it just easier to drop the user into an "ignore" bucket? This is assuming, of course, the "attack" is as mild and insignificant as your example and not something that is truly egregious. /Dan

[CyberDyneSystems]

Scott, it really is all about demand.
It's not a bad idea really, but as mentioned, the demand is not yet there.

What has gotten new forums started in the past, contrary to what some might think, is a very real and large demand for them.

We would like to have all or most of the following before we start to see a "need"

1. A large percentage of posts in existing categories of the specific type: This is the most important criteria.
(contrary to what some may believe in BOTH the case of "Birds" and "MotorSports" the subject matter was making up more than 50% of the previous forums before the new forums were created. ie: N&A was comprised of more than 50% birds prior to the creation of the bird forum)

2. Hand in hand with above, Member participation and demand:
One request in the forum talk section is not what we are talking about here, but rather a core group of interested members creating a "subculture" if you will in a current forum. Again, we had this in the past, Macro shooters, Birders, Wedding pros, and Motorsports.. these communities were already present here before there share forums were created.

I think there may very well be such a forum in our future, but I don't see the demand as being there right now.

[CyberDyneSystems]

We have "Birds" even though we have "Nature and Animals", we have "Motorsports" even though we have sports. There is plenty of precedent for pointlessly creating a new category even though we already had an appropriate existing category.



Confusing argument here Rad?

Are you saying creating new forums for specific interests is pointless, and if not why would you use these excellent examples of when it is a good idea to create new forum against us for doing so? It's as if to say that doing so was a mistake?, and if so, by no means should we want to repeat it.

You seem to be the best argument here for why not to create a new forum, as "we already had an appropriate existing category."

You are also using the precedent against us, making us loathe to do so again for fear it will again be used against us.
This is exactly why new forums are only created when the demand and numbers show a reason for it.

So, O-kay, for now you win :)

[Radtech1]

Confusing argument here Rad?

...seem to be the best argument here for why not to create a new forum, as "we already had an appropriate existing category."



CDS,

Sorry for the lack of lucidity. The point that I was trying to make was a response to Skip and others who contended that a Manipulations forum would be redundant in the presence of a "Still Life, B/W & Experimental" forum - that manipulation posts would "fit" into "Still Life, B/W & Experimental" category.

What I was trying to say was that a Manipulations forum would still be a welcome addition even though we have a (partially) Experimental forum. The point was that we already have created new forums even though there was a "forum that fit" in existence.

No, I was not trying to use the precedence against you. I apologize that it seemed so. I should not have used the term "pointlessly". In retrospect, think that that got us side tracked. The message I was trying to convey with that is that Bird is clearly a subset of Nature and Animals, that Motorsports, of course, falls under the umbrella of sports.

Even though the creation of those two could be seen as pointlessly re-inventing the wheel, it was still necessary to create those forums - so should we not give earnest thought to creating a forum for a category that currently "has no home"*. (I still don't think Experimental is a good fit.)

I think we should.

Rad

* Because these images now have no "home", about the only place to share them would be to divvy them up and post them according to topic.This fact could go a long way to explain why they are not currently overrunning any existing forum - at least, not in the way Birds took over N&A, or the way Motorsports took over Sports.

[Radtech1]

Point of discussion: instead of whining to a moderator being considerate of the fact the moderator staff is already stretched, isn't it just easier to drop the user into an "ignore" bucket? This is assuming, of course, the "attack" is as mild and insignificant as your example and not something that is truly egregious. /Dan

Umm, OK. Not quite sure of your point, but since you brought it up...

I am a little baffled by your phrase "whining to a moderator". Did you make an assumption that I contacted a mod? That is the only thing that makes sense. If so, it was an unwarranted assumption. I am well aware of the time/logistics demands on the moderators. I am not going to bother them with something that can be taken care of by a quick reminder.

As to the "ignore" bucket idea - again, you aren't clear. Did you mean for me to put the commenter on ignore, or for the OP to do so? If, me - I don't like to do that. I am interested in everyone's participation - even if someone, for a moment, gets away from POTN's rules. Doesn't mean that s/he will not be posting something constructive next time.

And as to the difference between a mild and egregious attack. Well, I don't know the guys ex-wife - so who knows - perhaps the attack is very egregious. Either way, it wouldn't make a difference.

See, I have been a participating member her for almost 5 years. During that time I have seen several other communities start small, get big, become unwieldy, and implode in conflicts and flame wars. And in the meantime, we have continued to thrive as the single most helpful, gracious, and considerate communities I know - virtual or otherwise.

That is to a huge measure due to the efforts of the mods - but there is a good portion of peer expectations. We all expect one another to behave. But we are human, and despite best intentions, we can get carried away. Perhaps it is the frustration of someone not seeing that which is perfectly clear to us. Perhaps it is something else.

For your egregious problems - by all means, call a Mod then walk away. That is what they volunteered for. For something mild - an incident rather than a pattern - then a reminder is all that is needed.

I hope you did not take my reminder too personally.

Rad

[CannedHeat]

Umm, OK. Not quite sure of your point, but since you brought it up...

I am a little baffled by your phrase "whining to a moderator". Did you make an assumption that I contacted a mod?

No, your assumption was wrong. I was talking about the subject / target of an "attack" running off and whining to a moderator. Again, for the point of conversation, we are eliminating severe attacks, threats, etc.

I did not interpret the flippant comment to be an attack at all. It was probably intended as a joke. But even in the face of mild criticism, I don't think that bothering an overly burdened moderator is always the answer.

In fact, in this forum a while back I brought up the subject of profanity. At that time many people piled on, a large percentage of which suggested I should have said something instead of bringing it up in this forum. I can't remember, but were you one of them? The point being to handle it as opposed to running to a moderator for help.

In fact, at this time there are two who are taking shots at me. Do I care? Absolutely not. Why? Because I simply dropped them both into a kill filter. PLONK, they're gone. What have I lost? Absolutely nothing. My reasoning is that anybody who would spend lots of time making multiple posts about the way a question was asked as opposed to actually answering the question has nothing constructive, productive, or beneficial to offer me, and perhaps potn, at all. In my opinion, totally lacking character. But I did not think it merited moderator intervention.

The inherent problem with internet forums is that you do not have the benefit of facial expressions, eye contact, body language, voice inflection, etc. As such, things intended one way can be easily interpreted another. Considering that, a little bit of flexibility needs to be extended.

Extending that flexibility, I did not think such a small joke warranted criticism at all, let alone advise about contacting moderators. It was just too insignificant.

/Dan

[cdifoto]

How about instead of

Still Life, B/W & Experimental (27 Viewing)
What do you shoot when it's raining outside?

we call it

Still Life, B/W, Experimental & Manipulations/PhArts (27 Viewing)
What do you shoot when it's raining outside?

or even

Still Life, Experimental, & Manipulations/PhArts (27 Viewing)
What do you shoot when it's raining outside?

Since a B&W can be made from any image in any category. Doesn't need to be in that title, IMHO.

Problem solved, right?

[CyberDyneSystems]

* Because these images now have no "home", about the only place to share them would be to divvy them up and post them according to topic.This fact could go a long way to explain why they are not currently overrunning any existing forum - at least, not in the way Birds took over N&A, or the way Motorsports took over Sports.


Good point, especially given that with the partial exception of "B&W Expremental etc.." and "Macro" we break up the Share forums solely by subject matter , not by technique or method.

[CyberDyneSystems]

How about instead of



we call it



or even



Since a B&W can be made from any image in any category. Doesn't need to be in that title, IMHO.

Problem solved, right?

Could give it a home in the interim and see if the demand grows, but what are "Pharts" ?

[cdifoto]

I think it's a merge of Photography Arts. I read/heard it somewhere. Basically a clever-ish name for a heavy manipulation that takes a base photo(s) and totally reworks it/them as OP described.

[Radtech1]

...but what are "Pharts" ?

Pull my finger.

[Radtech1]

No, your assumption was wrong. I was talking about the subject / target of an "attack" running off and whining to a moderator. Again, for the point of conversation, we are eliminating severe attacks, threats, etc.

Got it, thank you for the clarification.

But, different people have different sensitivities. My pithy comment could be your unprovoked slam. The rules allow for Mod intervention if anyone feels as though they are attacked. They shouldn't be made to feel as though they are whining.


The inherent problem with internet forums is that you do not have the benefit of facial expressions, eye contact, body language, voice inflection, etc. As such, things intended one way can be easily interpreted another.

Absolutely agreed! That is why even more caution should be exercised than f2f contacts.

Considering that, a little bit of flexibility needs to be extended. Extending that flexibility, I did not think such a small joke warranted criticism at all, let alone advise about contacting moderators. It was just too insignificant.

/Dan

Yeah, I agree it wasn't terribly significant, but even as a reader, the response I had was "Youch, that's cold - A little condescending." And, as such, comes in conflict with our "Don't Be A Jerk Language". Hence, my reminder of that language.

Rad

[CannedHeat]

... But, different people have different sensitivities. My pithy comment could be your unprovoked slam... ...comes in conflict with our "Don't Be A Jerk Language". Hence, my reminder of that language.

Rad

edited.

[DAMphyne]

I would love to see a Manipulations sub forum added to the Photo Sharing forum.

Who is with me? :)

Any change from the original "RAW" file could be considered a "Manipulation"

I think it would be impossible to set a point at which a photo becomes not a photo.
Darkroom manipulations happened all the time, burning, dodging, masking, solarizing, posterizing. Pushing, reticulation, High Pass, any change from the original negative, is a manipulation.

Probably the term "Experimental" IS more correct for what you're looking for.

To me, the over-all nest "Experimental" finds itself in, is a collection of subjects that are hard to fit-in with other major groups.
;) They really don't seem to have much in common.

Myself, I'd probably visit a B&W forum, but I don't have that much interest in the Still Life and Experimental work.

I'm with you, I'd enjoy more categories to narrow my search for my favorite style and subject.

Just seems like that would require a lot of changes and work to make it happen.


:confused: Like I always said,"Somebody always has a good idea for YOU to do".

[CannedHeat]

I'm with you, I'd enjoy more categories to narrow my search for my favorite style and subject.

I agree with this. I think that more closely-defined categories would also encourage more participation.

On the other hand, sympathy lies with Pekka and the mods in trying to figure out the answer to a logistical nightmare. One case in point would be B&W's. One one hand, B&W's could easily be seen to necessitate a category by themselves. Problem is, a BW can be a landscape or a portrait. So the landscape lover is now forced to two different places.

As to the OP's idea, I would agree that "manipulations" should be split out, I would agree. How about an all-encompassing "non-normal" category called "Experimental, Abstract and Exploratory?" /Dan

[tommykjensen]

As to the OP's idea, I would agree that "manipulations" should be split out, I would agree. How about an all-encompassing "non-normal" category called "Experimental, Abstract and Exploratory?" /Dan


I am talking about stuff created from scratch....stuff that isnt really photography anymore but rather art or designs.

If anything I would rather have such images to be seperated from "real" photos. Otherwise I would want that poster states clearly that it is a constructed image and not a photo* that has been manipulated.


* photo meaning an image captured with a camera.

[CannedHeat]

If anything I would rather have such images to be seperated from "real" photos. Otherwise I would want that poster states clearly that it is a constructed image and not a photo* that has been manipulated.


* photo meaning an image captured with a camera.

I would agree with that, and probably should have stated so. I assumed that everything being talked about here had, at its foundation, a photographic image. Considering the definition of Photography ("The art or process of producing images of objects on photosensitive surfaces") , I don't think that anything other than a "photographed" image belongs in any forum anywhere on this board. Yes, that would include coffee can pinhole cameras, but not hand-created art. Sorry for the lack of clarity. /Dan

[Jon]

Yes....:rolleyes:


I am talking about stuff created from scratch....stuff that isnt really photography anymore but rather art or designs.

Get it now????

I would agree with that, and probably should have stated so. I assumed that everything being talked about here had, at its foundation, a photographic image. Considering the definition of Photography ("The art or process of producing images of objects on photosensitive surfaces") , I don't think that anything other than a "photographed" image belongs in any forum anywhere on this board. Yes, that would include coffee can pinhole cameras, but not hand-created art. Sorry for the lack of clarity. /DanNot, evidently, what OP had in mind though.

[cdifoto]

Hey OP, I misread you. Apparently you want a CGI section here on POTN. But since that has nothing to do with photography, try this:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/

[CannedHeat]

Not, evidently, what OP had in mind though.

Well, then, I apologize. Somehow the thread got twisted around. Hope it wasn't my fault. So to understand, the original suggestion was to add non-photography art to a forum clearly labeled as for photography? If that's the case, can I add my request? I also shoot videos and use media studio pro to edit, and I edit music using Sound Forge. So can we add video and music forums also? ;) ;) /Dan

[Radtech1]

Yup....photo manipulations...to the point it isn't a photo any more.

Now THAT'S (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=440914) what I'm talkin' about!

A fantastic shot, that would be a perfect candidate for Manipulations - as is, stuck in "Urban" (?)

Rad