Help! Going to take Snowmobile racing pics!

[marcus769]

I plan to take shots of the professional snowmobile racing thats coming near me this weekend.. I dont have much experience with taking pictures in winter let alone at an event like this.. I plan to take my kit lens as well as my 70-200mm and a monopod on my 40D.

What exposure tips should I keep in mind for a cold, overcast day?

Would I benefit from a fill flash for the closer shots? I'm pretty sure i'll be able to get right next to most parts of the track, but the 70-200 may be too much reach for the closer shots/fill flash?

*edit* Also, I only have a circular polarizer filter for my 70-200 that i'd rather not take off... Will this be a bad filter for my overcast conditions?

[MX962]

Personaly I would take off the filter in over cast but that is just me, And I would take some test shots of the local scene and note your settings for a good exposure and no blow outs. Regards Ed

[marcus769]

Run the 70-200 with no filter? I only have 1 filter! I heard a filter should be on the lens at all times, which this one has been since I took it out of the box.

[lungdoc]

Run the 70-200 with no filter? I only have 1 filter! I heard a filter should be on the lens at all times
http://www.pacifichighlander.postkiwi.com/images/Can-of-worms.jpg

[PhotosGuy]

What exposure tips should I keep in mind for a cold, overcast day? Need an exposure crutch? (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=89123) Would I benefit from a fill flash for the closer shots? Maybe. Your flash will even reach out to fill at long distances if you have time to test. I heard a filter should be on the lens at all times, which this one has been since I took it out of the box. NO! Some filters maybe, but especially not a CP which will cost you 2 stops of light. Only use it if you need it.

[BradM]

Run the 70-200 with no filter? I only have 1 filter! I heard a filter should be on the lens at all times, which this one has been since I took it out of the box.

So in effect you don't have an f/2.8 you have maybe a f/4 or f/5.6 as a CP will cost you at least a stop of light.

If you "think" you need a filter for protection it certainly shouldn't be a polarizing filter. You would be much better served with a useless UV or skylight.

But buy good ones and that isn't based on pricing but on the optical quality of the filter. Cheap filters result in less image quality, why spend a $1k plus on a lens and put a filter on it that drags it down to a $200 lens performance?

I never use a filter on any of my lenses unless it is required for a specific effect like a NG or polarizer, the lens cap and or hood offers plenty of protection for me and I don't have to worry that the quality of glass I have is marginalized but some piece of plastic or glass.

[marcus769]

Good info! I'll take the CP filter off tomorrow. Any recomendations on the minimum shutter speed that is normally used to try and "stop" the action from a static position of your sublect going about 50mph? 1/250?

It looks like the skys are going to be over-casted again tomorrow, so i'll have to run a higher ISO too.

As far as the the 70-200, should i use it at 2.8 or which aperature at the minimum for best results?

LUNGDOC, thanks for your worthless post! Trying to learn and that doesnt help at all... I hate this!

[BradM]

What the apropriate shutter seed is dependent on the look of the image you are hoping for, a "frozen" or stopped action shot depends on the angle to which you are shooting. A head on shot will require a slower shutter speed than one from the side, an oblique angle between the two. It is also dependent on how far away you are from the sleds and how fast they are traveling.

A better look and sense of the speed can be captured by using a slower shutter speed but panning with the subject, so you get a motion blurred background and the sled and rider sharp.

So you can see it is rather difficult to give just one shutter speed to get what you want because what you may want can very significantly. I would suggest you look into the motorsports forum and look at images and the tips found in there to get some starting points.

But maybe a couple of tips; use the center focus point, AI servo, a positive EC of around 1 stop because of the snow (this will slow shutter speed), open up your f/stop for the fastest shutter speed if you want to stop the action, stop it down and pan from the hips and waist, not the head/shoulders with elbows tight against the body to get motion blur (maybe ~1/100th of sec. for SS but it really depends of too many variables to say), focus on the rider and not the sled, coming out of corners will be slower moving and often a better sense or feel of the action is possible, even if overcast try to setup on the sunny side of the riders. Chimp and check exposure.

I have only a few karting and motorcycling shots loaded on my zenfolio site, see the link below, but you can see the exif and the look I got from different shots, some places the bikes were running about 90, the shifter karts about 80mph. Maybe it will help out.

Have fun!

[lungdoc]

LUNGDOC, thanks for your worthless post! Trying to learn and that doesnt help at all... I hate this!

Easy there dude, it's a joke. Most who've been around this forum for very long at all will realize that the "filter vs. no filter" debate is one of the most frequent and most intense ones you'll see (except maybe 24-70 vs 24-105!;)). I was just pointing out that by bringing protective filters into a thread about snowmobile shots you are in fact opening up a potentially huge can of worms. Search 'protective filters' to get a taste of what I am talking about or visit this (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=368177&highlight=protective+filters) FAQ thread to find out more.

If you stop to think about it the fact that someone simply points out that any subject is a huge can of worms is NOT worthless and can in fact help. It means that there must be two reasonable sides to the point and that you might want to try to learn something about your previously unquestioned belief in filters.

[marcus769]

What the apropriate shutter seed is dependent on the look of the image you are hoping for, a "frozen" or stopped action shot depends on the angle to which you are shooting. A head on shot will require a slower shutter speed than one from the side, an oblique angle between the two. It is also dependent on how far away you are from the sleds and how fast they are traveling.

A better look and sense of the speed can be captured by using a slower shutter speed but panning with the subject, so you get a motion blurred background and the sled and rider sharp.

So you can see it is rather difficult to give just one shutter speed to get what you want because what you may want can very significantly. I would suggest you look into the motorsports forum and look at images and the tips found in there to get some starting points.

But maybe a couple of tips; use the center focus point, AI servo, a positive EC of around 1 stop because of the snow (this will slow shutter speed), open up your f/stop for the fastest shutter speed if you want to stop the action, stop it down and pan from the hips and waist, not the head/shoulders with elbows tight against the body to get motion blur (maybe ~1/100th of sec. for SS but it really depends of too many variables to say), focus on the rider and not the sled, coming out of corners will be slower moving and often a better sense or feel of the action is possible, even if overcast try to setup on the sunny side of the riders. Chimp and check exposure.

I have only a few karting and motorcycling shots loaded on my zenfolio site, see the link below, but you can see the exif and the look I got from different shots, some places the bikes were running about 90, the shifter karts about 80mph. Maybe it will help out.

Have fun!

Brad, great tips! Thanks alot!

And Lungdoc, A picture of a can of worms does nothing for me. A simple sentace saying the advantages of a filter for this type of shoot would be good or why I didn't really need a filter would have been more beneficial than that picture. I HATE when i'm trying to get help and people post crap like that. I'm new, hence me asking, hence me not knowing why the hell a can of worms is posted on my thread.

From my research, people leave filters on their lenses at all times mainly for protection, moreso than for what effects it has (ex. clear filters). Is it true they need to be on there, are the lenses really that suseptible to dirt/moister issues and does having a filter on minimize these incidents from happening is the question I was getting at when asking about filters.


Thanks to all who offered relevant advice. My shoot went well and i'm happy with my results. I need to work on those "credentials" now :D

[tonylong]

Marcus,

First, you really did come to the right place, you'll get good advice here, but you do have to wade through the sense of humor that can pop up:)!

Second, as far as filters: people who use filters for protection generally use the UV filters because they are clear, so don't slow your exposure settings down. A circular polarizer will tend to slow your exposure down from 1 to 2 stops, depending on the polarizer and where it is rotated to. Polarizers are typically used to either tone down reflective glare or to bring out saturation in certain colors, but they do slow things down.

As far as your settings go, I agree with those that are suggesting some experimenting. You need a fast shutter speed to stop action, but you also want to try "tracking" -- that is, following a moving object with a somewhat slower shutter speed to have the background blurred, showing movement. These are skills that come with practice!

Shoot in RAW! You will be balancing snow, gloomy light, and moving objects, so there will porbably be some compromises somewhere as far as overall exposure, and shooting in RAW will give you the best chance of getting higher speeds then upping the exposure on your computer. ISO 1600 would probably give you the best speed/IQ balance, an aperture of f/5.6 or f/8 would give you a balance of depth-of-field with a useable shutter speed, but you will have to work some of this out on-site because the lighting will dictate what you can do.

And, have fun and hope you get some good shots!

[lungdoc]

Brad, great tips! Thanks alot!

Is it true they need to be on there, are the lenses really that suseptible to dirt/moister issues and does having a filter on minimize these incidents from happening is the question I was getting at when asking about filters.
:D

And the answer really is that it's a can of worms (sorry if you don't like the visual simplicity): i.e. a controversial topic that people feel passionately about on both sides, have argued about many times before, and to which there isn't an agreed answer.

[BradM]

Marcus - On the filters issue, there is a ton of threads on the good, bad and ugly points on using them for protection, a little search will find them.

But just my observation on the topic: you will find every camera sales rep will offer to sell you a protection filter when you buy a lens. Just like every car or electronics salesperson will offer to sell you an extended warranty. Are they doing this for your benefit or for their bottomline?

In my experience it is the latter, and in your case my assumption is that the sales rep offered the polarizer as something that would be very useful AND add protection. If so they were doing you a dis-service as you very shooting with a lens you couldn't get the best performance from, though a polarizer can be an very useful tool just not for protection.

I do primarily wildlife photography and as such I want the best possible detail in my images, I do shoot in all kinds of weather and conditions, from crawling along a beach, pushing through brush and shooting in the rain and I don't want anything reducing the possible image quality I can get out of my lenses. And even with the best filters I do see a reduction in fine detail and so won't use them.

Others find them vital in protecting the forward lens element from harm, in ten's of thousands of hours shooting I have yet to drop a lens, a camera or push it into a rock, tree or anything else. I have gotten rain, sea spray, dust, pollen, bugs and maybe even a bit more on the lens but never anything that I wasn't prepared to take care of. And yet to have any scars, marks or tattoos on my glass.

How to say this without seemingly demeaning because that isn't my intent: but if you are one that can foresee an act or lapse of attention that could result in some instance where the lens cover and or the hood isn't enough protection then you should consider using a UV or daylight filter for "protection" but realize it is not an end all and any impact strong enough to break the filter is often enough to also damage the forward lens element.

But if you do use one, buy a good one. One that will not introduce flare, chromatic aberations or reduce image quality. And test it, take some shots around the house with and without and see if you like the results. Be sure to try it in differing lighting and high contrast conditions to be confident when that one great shot comes along it isn't pulled down to medicore by the filter you are using.

Best to you and show us one or two of the shots you got of the sleds, interested in seeing them. Cheers!

[BradM]

And the answer really is that it's a can of worms (sorry if you don't like the visual simplicity): i.e. a controversial topic that people feel passionately about on both sides, have argued about many times before, and to which there isn't an agreed answer.

Mark - fwiw I understood your intent and thought the shot was very appropriate to the question, brought a grin when I first saw it.