Any owners of Markins M10 *and* Arca Z1 out there?

[René Damkot]

I recently got a Gitzo 1325 from a photographer with a leg stuck. I managed to repair it, so now have a good tripod for helping him out :D.
I only need to get a decent head to go with it.

I've narrowed it down to the Markins M10 or the Arca Swiss Z1. Both with a 'standard' Arca head. There is one shop I can try the Arca, but I don't know of any place that has both heads. So I can't compare them other then buying both, which I wasn't planning to do :p

That's why I'm not sure which one: The Arca is (quite a lot) heavier, but has an eliptical ball, and can handle more load. (probably more comparable to a Markins M20)

I think the weight difference is more important to me, since if I'd have to *buy* a tripod, it would be something like the Gitzo 2540; Lighter then the 1325, since the longest lens I shoot is about a 80-200L with 1.4x on a Mk2. Maybe *very* occasionally a 300mm/4.0 with 1.4x.

Any thoughts to why the Arca would be better (It is a bit cheaper over here)?

Additionally, I have a few questions about the Markins:

The M10 comes in a L and R version. I think the R version has the same layout as the Z1, correct?

That would mean that both the M10R and the Z1 would have the locking knob on the left when shooting upward (slot towards you)?

Any views on what is nicest to have if you have the choice: The "Left" or "Right" Markins?
I'll be using a RRS L-plate, so the slot orientation is mainly of concern when shooting up or down. And I think shooting upward is something I'd do more often, and I'd like to have the control on the left then I think.

[evidence120]

I recently got a M-20 with the left-hand control. My old ballhead had the traditional right-hand control and I hated taking my hand off the shutter to loosen or tighten my camera. Truth is with my new M-20, I find I'm rarely adjusting the knob much. The Markins tension control is outstanding and I find I can just move my camera where I want it and it will not budge. (24-70 2.8L and 70-200 2.8LIS largest glass) If your right handed I'd say go for it, I do like it!

[CyberDyneSystems]

Rene, not exactly what you asked for, but I do have the M20, and this thing is physically half the size and 1/3 weight of one of my other ballheads, (Graf StudioBall @ 1550 grams and 5.5" tall rated for 25kg pounds) which was designed for very large gear.

The M20 is 568Grams and rated for 45kg!!!

The M20 on the 1325 is a killer combo and I have no need now for that monster ballhead

My theory is that if the M20 can beat one of the largest heaviest and sturdiest heads made at 1/3 the weight, then the M10 will handily outperform the Arca Z as well.

[René Damkot]

I hated taking my hand off the shutter to loosen or tighten my camera.

How's that? You can still have the control on the left, right?

Only difference I see would be the position of the 'drop slot'. If the controls are on the left, a traditional ball would have the slot facing you, a left ball would have the slot at the front.

The control would be at the front with the slot facing left, right? (I think that's why the 'left handed' version was created; to get the controls facing the photographer with the slot on the left?)

I don't see the advantage of the 'left-hand' knob... What am I missing?

My theory is that if the M20 can beat one of the largest heaviest and sturdiest heads made at 1/3 the weight, then the M10 will handily outperform the Arca Z as well.

I figure the M10 will take anything I throw at it, but I am not sure how big an advantage (if any) the elliptical ball will be.

Also, the shop in germany that sells Markins, only has the "left handed" version, and I'm unsure whether that is an advantage. Not willing to spend that amount of cash on something I'm unsure about ;)

Do you have the left or right M20?

[coorz]

http://www.nikonians.org/dcforum/DCForumID15/1004.html
for some illustrations. The M10 is wonderfully small and as said above tension control is a joy to use.

[René Damkot]

Useful, thanks. I think I'd prefer the Regular version...

[paulhillion]

The R version was phased out, I think because most buyers went with the L version.

I have the M20 - wouldn't swap it for anything, it's that good!

[JohnJ80]

Another happy L model M20 user here. I'd take the M10 over the A-S one anyday.

J.

[René Damkot]

Why did you choose the L version? Why would you choose the M10 over the Z1?

[JohnJ80]

Because the controls are located on the left side such that I can use my left hand without taking my right hand off of the camera or its shutter button. You cannot do that with the older R version.

Trust me on this one - you want the newer version. ;)

J.

[René Damkot]

Hmmm. Maybe I'm dense, but the 'older' version allows the controls to be on the left as well I think?
I still don't see the "taking my right hand off of the camera " bit. What am I missing?
I agree that's not something I'd want, but I don't understand the need...

From the link in post #5 (second image) control on the left would mean the drop slot is on the back.
I think that's more usefull then having it on the front; I think I'd shoot upward more often then downward. Then again, I could be completely wrong ;)

I use my current ballhead (old manfrotto) with the control on the front all the time. I actually prefer it that way. Then again, that one has a lever style lock, not a round knob...

[JohnJ80]

Hmmm. Maybe I'm dense, but the 'older' version allows the controls to be on the left as well I think?
I still don't see the "taking my right hand off of the camera " bit. What am I missing?
I agree that's not something I'd want, but I don't understand the need...

From the link in post #5 (second image) control on the left would mean the drop slot is on the back.
I think that's more usefull then having it on the front; I think I'd shoot upward more often then downward. Then again, I could be completely wrong ;)

I use my current ballhead (old manfrotto) with the control on the front all the time. I actually prefer it that way. Then again, that one has a lever style lock, not a round knob...

The main knob and the panning knob are reversed in position. If you want the main knob to be in the proper position for your left hand, then the panning knob is going to be well around towards the front of the ballhead and not very easy to access.

I would think the main knob's position would be your main priority since for most applications it is going to get the most use.

J

[coorz]

The R feels more natural / logical to use for right handers; tension and pan with your left hand and hold the body with your right.

[JohnJ80]

The R feels more natural / logical to use for right handers; tension and pan with your left hand and hold the body with your right.

I think you have it backwards for the reasons you mentioned. It is easier to tension and pan with the L version because the knobs are to the left, right?

J

[Triptoph]

Coorz has me mixed up too, I've been following this thread as I have the same choice to make regarding L and R versions of the M10.

[René Damkot]

Glad I'm not alone ;)

Still no-one showed up with experience with both Markins and Arca...

The Arca is easier to get, since I'd need to order the Markins from either Germany (not a big deal) or the USA (for the R version) (a bigger deal)

Shame it's impossible to get a "hands on" (Any dutch members on here with a Markins?)

[JohnJ80]

You want to have the main control knob be on the the left with the pan knob to the right of that. Whatever that is called, that is how you want it. ;) I believe that is the "L" version. In that scenario, you can have your right hand on the camera, finger on shutter button and left hand easily managing both ballhead controls. I believe that also works out for the notch (which I never use since I have L brackets on my bodies).

It is hard to designate a left and right side of a round object. ;)

J

[Wilt]

Per their website, Markins calls this configuration the 'L'...(all descriptions assume eye looking down to ballhead like a clockface) With drop slot for portait orientation positioned at 9 o'clock, main lock knob is at 6 o'clock, pan control is at 3 o'clock.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/M10-L_demo1.jpg

Markins calls the 'non-L' configuration...(all descriptions assume eye looking down to ballhead like a clockface) With drop slot for portait orientation positioned at 9 o'clock, main lock knob is at 12 o'clock, pan control is at 3 o'clock.

The Markins site says, "The controls, the tension knob and the panning knob, are located in a way that allows you to keep your right hand on the shutter of camera and control the tension or the panning with your left hand. The convenience of having the controls on the left side becomes so obvious when you take a vertical photograph as shown in the pictures of below. The controls face you instead of facing the opposite."

But if you think about this, with the Markins 20L, if the camera is in Portait oriention with the drop slot at 9 c'clock, the 6 o'clock position of the main knob does permit your LEFT hand to control that. But the 3 o'clock position of the pan control forces you to use your RIGHT hand to lock/release the pan, which is contrary to what they said, "in a way that allows you to keep your right hand on the shutter of camera and control the tension or the panning with your left hand"!

With the Markins 20, if the camera is in Portait oriention with the drop slot at 9 c'clock, the 12 o'clock position of the main knob does permit your LEFT (or right!) hand to control that but you are forced to reach forward under the lens. But the 3 o'clock position of the pan control still forces you to use your RIGHT hand to lock/release the pan!

If you put the drop slot at 3 o'clock, for the 20L, the pan control is accessible to the LEFT hand and the main knob at 6 o'clock is also accessible to the left hand, but the camera grip is put downward...bad!

If you put the drop slot at 3 o'clock, for the 20, the pan control is accessible to the LEFT hand and the main knob at 12 o'clock is also accessible to the left hand, but the hand must reach forward under the lens and the camera grip is put downward...bad!

[René Damkot]

You want to have the main control knob be on the the left

I think I can agree there...
And I could see a slight advantage of the L version when dropping the camera for shooting verticals: Click (http://www.markinsamerica.com/MA5/M20-L.php).
However, when using an L plate, it's almost irrelevant, since you will only be using the drop slot when shooting up or downward at an extremer angle...

The way I figure, I'd be shooting upward more often then downward, and with the notch toward you, a L version puts the main control right (a very big *dis*advantage), right? If so, a R version would make more sense.

OTOH, the *only* place I can find that still offers the Regular version is here (http://www.markins.com/2.0/eng/online.html). Presumably all others ditched it, because the Left version is waaay more popular. So I'm in doubt because I'm thinking: "I must be missing something, all those people can't be wrong"...


@Wilt: I see you were typing as I was ;)

I think I follow about the same reasoning, and I'm beginning to think I might prefer the R vesion...

[coorz]

Confusing! :D What Wilt said: shutter release is at the bottom, bad.
Pix of my M10-R

http://www.displayfreak.com/5d/m10r.jpg

[JohnJ80]

Actually, Rene didn't I read somewhere that you use L brackets? If one uses L brackets, it really makes no difference at all - I would guess.

J.

[Wilt]

Oh joy, we get to spend another $80-100 to avoid the issue of Portrait orientation and knob placement (Markins is not alone on this, BTW...common issue for other heads, too!)

[René Damkot]

Actually, Rene didn't I read somewhere that you use L brackets? If one uses L brackets, it really makes no difference at all - I would guess.

J.

Yes, I use an RRS L bracket.

The difference it makes, like I stated in a few posts, is the orientation of the knobs when shooting up or down (drop slot toward or away from you (12 or 6 o' clock position) :p

Looks like it'll be a R version for me.
Now I only need to decide between Arca and Markins...

Oh joy, we get to spend another $80-100 to avoid the issue of Portrait orientation and knob placement

50 bucks off ebay actually :lol:

And it's the best money I've spent recently. Would not hesitate a second to get one for my next camera... Very, *very* highly recommended.

IMO it does a lot more then "avoid the issue of Portrait orientation and knob placement".
Camera is way more stable on a monopod, since you're straight above it.

Also, Arca style QR is *way* better then the RC2 I used before. No play whatsoever.

[Wilt]

So is the need for a 'custom' anti-twist plate alleviated by use of an L bracket? If so, then the cost for an L bracket is offset.

[jhom]

The L bracket is essentially a 'custom anti-twist plate.' Typically, you purchase an L bracket designed for a specific camera body. The advantage is that the bracket is designed to allow you access to the various camera controls/plugs. The disadvantage is that when you get a new and different camera, you will likely need to buy a different L bracket that is designed for it. However, this is not that bad. L brackets are in constant demand and are typically easy to sell.

[René Damkot]

bad.
Pix of my M10-R

Does that mean you want to get rid of it? ;)

Edit: I could come by to see the thing in 'real life' maybe, since I'm dutch as well? :)

[coorz]

Nope not selling, had a Gitzo 1377 before, this Markins is shockingly small and a light package together with the Manfrotto MF3 carbon.
BTW Enschede is quite a long way from Amsterdam!
edit BTW there's a M10 for sale at marktplaats, a bit older ad but maybe still available...

[René Damkot]

Ah, I figured you might want to like to get an L version ;)

On the ad on Marktplaats: That's the one featuring a red M10 and includes a Gitzo 2220?
That's also an M10L :p

I know the distance, but I might be in the Rotterdam area monday...

[coorz]

Actually i'm at customer site for another 2 weeks in Delft, but there's no way we could meet here at office.
You're welcome to check it out when i'm back at my office (schiphol).

[René Damkot]

Ah, that's nice... Thanks! I'll PM you in a few weeks then.
I could check the Arca at Konijnenberg then first, and the Markins later :)

At least then I'll know what I'll be getting.

[René Damkot]

Nevermind.... Ordered a Markins M10R.
A photographer I know is also looking for a ballhead. I might convince him to get the Arca, if only to do a comparison ;)

[René Damkot]

Well, Markins started off by sending the L version :(

Good news is, it's cheaper to order straight from Markins international then from Markins Germany. (Reason I ordered international was that I want an R version (German site doesn't have them), not an L... See how that will be worked out. But it did save me about 50 euros)

[Wilt]

Well, Markins started off by sending the L version :(

Good news is, it's cheaper to order straight from Markins international then from Markins Germany. (Reason I ordered international was that I want an R version (German site doesn't have them), not an L... See how that will be worked out. But it did save me about 50 euros)

OK so now you have the opportunity to evaluate the L before sending it back for the R...what do you think of the L layout?

[jhom]

I have the Q3 which has left side controls. I prefer this configuration because I use my right hand to control and position the camera. My left hand adjusts the main lock knob and pan lock. With the L configuration, the drop notch will be in front if you orient the main lock knob to the left.

[Wilt]

I have the Q3 which has left side controls. I prefer this configuration because I use my right hand to control and position the camera. My left hand adjusts the main lock knob and pan lock. With the L configuration, the drop notch will be in front if you orient the main lock knob to the left.


But the front drop notch makes no sense for putting a camera into portrait orientation!

I believe that the Markins 'L' vs. 'R' designation is to indication the position of the crop notch, when the main control knob is pointed at you...

' L' is notch at 9 o'clock photo in message #18 ), 'R' is notch at 3 o'clock (photo in message #20). The R makes no sense to use in that 3 o'clock slot position because it forces the camera to be rotated clockwise into portrait orientation with the shutter button downward not upward; if you rotate the R slot to 9 o'clock, the main control knob is in front, under the lens.

[René Damkot]

OK so now you have the opportunity to evaluate the L before sending it back for the R...what do you think of the L layout?

Sucks big time IMHO... But then, I'm biased :P

I'm gonna give it a try, but for the few minutes I've tried it,it feels "wrong".
I've *always* used a ballhead with the "control" on the front. Biggest problem IMO is that, with the "main dial" facing me, the "pan control" should have been on the other side of the main dial.

Images on the Markins site might clarify what I mean: Click (http://www.markinsamerica.com/MA5/M20-L.php)

[jhom]

But the front drop notch makes no sense for putting a camera into portrait orientation!

I believe that the Markins 'L' vs. 'R' designation is to indication the position of the crop notch, when the main control knob is pointed at you...

' L' is notch at 9 o'clock photo in message #18 ), 'R' is notch at 3 o'clock (photo in message #20). The R makes no sense to use in that 3 o'clock slot position because it forces the camera to be rotated clockwise into portrait orientation with the shutter button downward not upward; if you rotate the R slot to 9 o'clock, the main control knob is in front, under the lens.

Not a problem if you use a L bracket. :D

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2391/2530q3tb20rrs85hz5.jpg

http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/2497/2530q3tb20rrs1635wj0.jpg

[Wilt]

Sucks big time IMHO... But then, I'm biased :P

I'm gonna give it a try, but for the few minutes I've tried it,it feels "wrong".
I've *always* used a ballhead with the "control" on the front. Biggest problem IMO is that, with the "main dial" facing me, the "pan control" should have been on the other side of the main dial.

Images on the Markins site might clarify what I mean: Click (http://www.markinsamerica.com/MA5/M20-L.php)

I have a Linhof Profi II, and the controls and drop notch match the Markins depicted in message #18 and #37...is that similar to the head which you received in error?

Interestingly, the most logical position for the pan control would be on the opposite side from the main control knob, that way the same hand controls both functions and the drop notch is at 9 o'clock where the camera can be properly oriented while in portrait orientation. The pan control at 9 o'clock makes no sense with QR plates interfering with access to a pan control in that position when the camera is in portrait orientation.

[René Damkot]

I have a Linhof Profi II, and the controls and drop notch match the Markins depicted in message #18 and #37...is that similar to the head which you received in error?
Yep.

Agree that the position of the pan control could be improved in both cases... Opposite sides does seem best. I'll post a follow up tomorrow. Off to bed for now ;)

[CyberDyneSystems]

Not a problem if you use a L bracket. :D

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2391/2530q3tb20rrs85hz5.jpg



Two questions:
What is that thing between the head and the triopd?
and what is that QR between the L bracket and the Head?

[jhom]

Two questions:
What is that thing between the head and the triopd?
and what is that QR between the L bracket and the Head?

1. Markins tripod base
2. RRS lever clamp

Here is a better shot of the setup:

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5561/q3tb202530rrski1.jpg

[CyberDyneSystems]

Thanks, the angle of the shot in the first pick made the lever clamp look very weird,. but now I see it :)

I'll have to look up what the "Tripod base" does for us.

[jhom]

http://markins.com/charlie/report4e6.pdf

Here is the Markins study that may shed some light on the subject. I would take it with a grain of salt.

[René Damkot]

Right. Follow up:

It's not as bad as I thought it would be, but I still think the R version is better.

To clarify: I made a small gallery of images here (http://www.moonglade.net/~rene/POTN/080209_M10_L/index.html). You'll have to imagine the camera with L bracket there, because obviously I needed it to take the pics ;)

Biggest hassle (IMO) is, with the drop notch on the left, because reaching the pan control is very annoying then (images #6 (main knob in the way) and 7 (too far 'around')). IMO this makes using an L bracket mandatory.
#9 is not good, but okay. Only reaching the tension control is bad.

I think in all cases, the R version would do slightly better, since the position of the main and pan control are reversed.
If you want to imagine the R version: The pan control is on the other side of the main control, and the drop notch moved 180 degrees...

IMO the L version would be easier to handle if the pan control were at 90 degrees from the main control (like Linhof) instead of 45 degrees. (In image #7, you'd have to reach around 270 degrees, which is do-able, instead of 315 degrees)

Best solution would probably be to have the controls opposite though.

[jhom]

Sucks big time IMHO... But then, I'm biased :P

I'm gonna give it a try, but for the few minutes I've tried it,it feels "wrong".
I've *always* used a ballhead with the "control" on the front. Biggest problem IMO is that, with the "main dial" facing me, the "pan control" should have been on the other side of the main dial.

Images on the Markins site might clarify what I mean: Click (http://www.markinsamerica.com/MA5/M20-L.php)

It is a matter of relearning. My previous ballhead was a Manfrotto 468mg. The main lock and pan lock knobs were directly opposite each other. The drop slots were between the two knobs. I was use to that configuration before the Q3. However, in a very short time I have adapted to the Markins L configuration. I now prefer it and it is easier to use. Since I'm right-handed having the main lock knob to the left at 9 o'clock is most convenient. It is the most used control. I use the pan lock much less frequently. Having an L bracket makes the drop slot position somewhat irrelevant.

[Wilt]

IMO the L version would be easier to handle if the pan control were at 90 degrees from the main control (like Linhof) instead of 45 degrees. (In image #7, you'd have to reach around 270 degrees, which is do-able, instead of 315 degrees)
.


uh-ohhh, it is not apparent from any of the photos that the pan control is not 180 degrees (3 o'clock) from the drop notch (9 o'clock) but is at 4:30! In that case, the M10R configuration would put the head so tht (when oriented for portrait orientation to permit counterclockwise rotation of camera so its grip is up, not down) the drop notch at 9 o'clock, the main control is at 12 o'clock, and the pan control is at 1:30, which would seem to make that layout awkward because you have to reach around the large main knob with the left hand to somehow grasp the pan lock with the same hand!

[jhom]

Okay, I re-read the Rene's requirements. Since the position of the drop slot is critical in the discussion, a R version is needed to make the control knobs convenient to use. The L version will be too arkward.

[René Damkot]

uh-ohhh, it is not apparent from any of the photos that the pan control is not 180 degrees (3 o'clock) from the drop notch (9 o'clock) but is at 4:30! In that case, the M10R configuration would put the head so tht (when oriented for portrait orientation to permit counterclockwise rotation of camera so its grip is up, not down) the drop notch at 9 o'clock, the main control is at 12 o'clock, and the pan control is at 1:30, which would seem to make that layout awkward because you have to reach around the large main knob with the left hand to somehow grasp the pan lock with the same hand!

Yep. The pan control would be in the same place as in image 8, but the main knob would be in the way a bit...
Should be exactly the same as with an Arca Swiss Monoball Z1 or B1...

I think that would then be the worst position, but still better then what I get now in image #6 and 7...

Both not *very* good, but I think "Regular" would be slightly better.

I'm not planning to use the ballhead with the drop notch left very often (I'll probably use it in the most "ergonomic" way, since I have the L plate), but IMO it's nice to be able to use it that way at least ;)

[Magic_Puzzle]

I bought the Markens M-10 to use on a Giottos tripod with my 40D with the battery grip and the RRS "L" plate. I bought the "left" hand model so that the main knob is turned toward me as opposed to being on the front where I would have had to reach around to tighten and loosen it. I tried several ballheads and went with the Markens because of recommendations I got from my photography professor. I absolutely love it and highly recommend it for use with the RRS "L" plate and the camera grip for the 40D. Don't worry about the load capacity of the M-10, it is by far the strongest part of my outfit, easily being stronger than the any tripod you might pair it with.

[Poindexter]

Subscribing - great thread!

For the record, my M-20 can take anything I throw at it! Why not get the M-20? The weight savings on the 10 is not even worth talking about and you;ll have something that can handle the heaviest lens you can buy.....without a special order directly from Canon or Sigma.

[JohnJ80]

Actually, any of the Markins can probably handle just about any lens you could throw at it. The reason for the different sizes is that they are to be paired up with the Series 1, 2 and 3 from Gitzo - at least that is what one of the Markins guys told me. Q3 for Series 1, M10 for Series 2, and M20 for Series 3.

J

[René Damkot]

Well, I got an Email from Markins:
"It's been quite a while that the regular M10 was discontinued and replaced by the M10-L. So, the so called "regular" M10 is no longer available.
The "left" hand style doesn't mean that it is for left handed people. Regardless one's handedness the left hand style ballhead is more convenient and better suited for modern day cameras.
If you want to return the purchase since we can't do an exchange, we will gladly refund the money. Please let us know if you need an RMA for return. "

So, it looks the choice I have is either this M10-L or to end up with an Arca Z1 (And the hassle of getting the money back from customs)...
I'll have to think about that for a while.

[René Damkot]

Update:

I decided it's not worth the hassle to return the head, so I'm going to keep it and see if I can get used to it. Otherwise I'll sell it, and go with a Z1. At least I'll have tried then...

If anyone in Europe has an M10-R in good shape and would consider trading, PM me though ;)

[Wilt]

Update:

I decided it's not worth the hassle to return the head, so I'm going to keep it and see if I can get used to it. Otherwise I'll sell it, and go with a Z1. At least I'll have tried then...

If anyone in Europe has an M10-R in good shape and would consider trading, PM me though ;)

If you decide to sell, let me know. What QR is on it, the original Markins? How outrageous is the EU price on that... same or higher than web Markins Int'l pricing)?

[René Damkot]

QR is the Markins screw version...
I bought it for $370, including shipping. Additional customs and tax were 65 euros, so total was about 310 euros. That's about what they sell them for at markins europe excluding VAT....
About the same as the going rate for an Arca Z1.

You'd be off cheaper ordering from Markins ;)

[Wilt]

QR is the Markins screw version...
I bought it for $370, including shipping. Additional customs and tax were 65 euros, so total was about 310 euros. That's about what they sell them for at markins europe excluding VAT....
About the same as the going rate for an Arca Z1.

You'd be off cheaper ordering from Markins ;)

Yeah, besides I would get it without any QR, and add an RRS QR.

There's another very recent post on POTN from someone looking to buy M10L!

[Magic_Puzzle]

I gave a lot of thought and time in picking my Markens M10 ballhead and decided on the "left handed" version for the simple reason that it moves the locking knob to the back of the ballhead (facing me) when it is mounted. The "right handed" setup would place this knob on the opposite side (facing away from me) making the locking knob in the front where you would have to reach around to set it. Remember that the adjustment thumb screw, used to set the main knob's tension when you change the lens, is mounted on the inside of that knob so it is very difficult to set it when you can't see it.The second knob is on the right side of the ballhead and opposite of the slot of the ballhead. I use a RRS "L" bracket on my camera, so I don't use the slot of the ballhead to place my camera in the vertical position anyway, but the left version means that the locking knob is facing me and the adjusting knob is on the right side of the ballhead next to my right hand as I use the camera.