Scam?

[ChrisRabior]

Ok, bear with me.
Back in the infancy of my stock photography experience, I signed up with a number of the micros. Made a quick buck, realized my mistake, and pulled out of all of the agencies. Images that sold were retired and basically cut from my portfolio. Images that never sold were put back in the pool.
I'm currently in the process of uploading all of the quality images that were either shot after cutting ties with micro or never once sold as micro.
Out of the blue, I get this email:

Hi Chris

A few months ago, I used this picture (found it at XXXXXXX) for a client of us. How much does it cost:

Client: Student-Organisation in Switzerland
Broschure A4
Size: app. 2000 x 1600 px
lot: 1000 Ex.

Hope to hear from you soon.
Best Regards
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Name of agency and name of potential client removed.
Anyways, I thought that was pretty outstanding that someone who used the image was going to track me down so they could pay for it. Felt odd, but I know I'd be uneasy about using a stock image without settling my debt with the owner.

I emailed him back, said I was no longer represented by the agency. The pricing I could offer would coincide with my new agency. His size requirement fell between 2 RF image sizes in Alamy, so I gave him the lower of the two. Also asked if it was possible for them to send a copy of the brochure for my tearsheet collection.

Heard back the following morning:
Hi Chris

To bad for us, we didn’t buy it earlier! I agree to 170 USD, if my client can use it for his own communication without limitations.
Of course, we can send you the pdf of the broschure. If you need a hard-copy we would have to charge you the postal charges (15 USD).
If you agree, please send me your bank data and the picture in the requested resolution as soon as possible, because we have to finish the product withhin the next days.

Best Regards from Zürich

So now there's the huge red light. What bugs me:
*if my own client can use it....without limitations
RF is pretty lax with the amount of freedom you get from it. My view on no limitations would include resale, repetitive use, etc. I don't really like how the terms are changing.

*have to charge me 15 bucks for a brochure?
I was expecting a check in the mail, and the brochure to come right along with it. 15 dollars is outrageous. Oh well, I'd rather settle for the pdf.

*send me your bank data
I think this one's self explanatory. If this doesn't bug you, you're in the wrong business.

*have to finish product within the next days
The first email indicated that he found and used the image, and was merely out to settle the cost for the license he thought he would be able to obtain at the microstock site. Now the project is due soon, and he needs bank info?


On one hand, I can see this being a complete and total scam. "Oh sure, here's my account and routing number, have fun with my life savings!" I wouldn't dream of giving out my banking info.

On the other hand, this could be a serious buyer. If the guy truly needs the image, I don't see a problem with sending the file and giving him some time to cut a check. I've gotta wait months for sales to clear at Alamy..

Now, the image in question. It's a rather horrid shot and I'm ashamed to say it was ever for sale. It was more of a mistaken upload than anything else. OOF, blurry, high ISO (lots of noise). Really, just a bad pic. I really wouldn't feel too ripped off if this guy took the image and ran, simply bc the picture is terrible. It's not like it's some priceless shot that I'd never be able to recreate.

I don't really have a lot of experience dealing with scammers, so I don't know if this is a cookie cutter style attempt or if the guy could possibly be legit. Any thoughts?

[jonnythan]

Scam. Classic technique - promise to pay you, but you have to pay up first.

They're paying you. They don't need your bank data. You don't need to pay them.

[cory1848]

Most businesses run on a 30 day net, at least in the states...thats standard practice. As far as bank data goes, give a paypal address. Problem solved. What you consider bank data may not be what they consider bank data... Try cashing an international check....see how long it sits in your account before it clears...
Sounds legit to me but do you want to let go of this image RF for $170? Maybe require a one year limitation on it? I am sure others will chime in on this...I am curious to hear other peoples opinions as well.

[ChrisRabior]

Scam. Classic technique - promise to pay you, but you have to pay up first.

They're paying you. They don't need your bank data. You don't need to pay them.

Sorry, I fail to see where he wants me to pay up first.
Not sure if we're on the same page for this one.

[ChrisRabior]

Most businesses run on a 30 day net, at least in the states...thats standard practice. As far as bank data goes, give a paypal address. Problem solved. What you consider bank data may not be what they consider bank data... Try cashing an international check....see how long it sits in your account before it clears...
Sounds legit to me but do you want to let go of this image RF for $170? Maybe require a one year limitation on it? I am sure others will chime in on this...I am curious to hear other peoples opinions as well.


That's kind of the route I figured I would take. Paypal or check/money order... with the validity of the license pending on the payment clearing.

If the guy really wanted to use the image without paying, he could have used the unwatermarked thumbnail that he sent me to identify the image he wanted... and if he's out to scam me, then even if I do send him the higher res image, he's probably not out to use it in any way other than to get my account info.

Looks like I'll be stepping carefully around this one.

[jonnythan]

I must be misunderstanding something then.

He hasn't paid you yet, but he's requesting money and bank information from you, yes?

[ChrisRabior]

I must be misunderstanding something then.

He hasn't paid you yet, but he's requesting money and bank information from you, yes?

No. He apparently wants my bank information so he can send me payment.

[liza]

Tell him to pay via Paypal or cashier's check. A real client wouldn't ask you for your bank information.

[cory1848]

Tell him to pay via Paypal or cashier's check. A real client wouldn't ask you for your bank information.

Thats why I suggested paypal and by them asking for bank info, just might be asking for where to send payment...Just suggesting the benefit of the doubt first...Now if they really want a routing number, then deal is off...

I would not by any means accept a cashiers check at all, especially an international one. Unless they agree to a 30 day hold on the image until it clears. Just my 2 cents.

[ChrisRabior]

Well, I asked for paypal or a check, we'll see what the response is. If I had to wager, I'd probably lean towards this being a scam... but oh how sweet it would be if it was a serious offer.

[trantz]

don't respond. It's a scam. Run away.

[ChrisRabior]

I'll be buggered. I told the guy paypal/check only, and he's opted for the paypal route.

I'll keep updating on the situation as things develop.

[AndreaBFS]

Be VERY careful. It's extremely easy to "float" PayPal payments, even if you see that money hit your PayPal account. If the account they're using is bad, they could cycle through several bogus backup funding sources before you find out. Once PayPal is certain they can't get the money from the sender, they will take it directly from you whether it's in your PayPal account or your bank account.

[transcend]

Tell him to pay via Paypal or cashier's check. A real client wouldn't ask you for your bank information.

I have clients routinely transfer 4 digit sums to my account from overseas. It is much easier when dealing with europe.

That said, something seems sketchy with this whole deal.

[laurielozano]

Sounds like a HUGE SCAM. I would not give him any bank info, not even paypal info for that matter. Especially since he's not in the US - he says he's in Zurich. Many of the scams come from over seas. I was surprised he wasn't from Nigeria, thats where a large quantity of these come from. No offense to the honest people that live there.

[Croasdail]

Common guys... turn down the paranoia a little. You bank can setup a temp account or escrow account for you - do this all the time for international funds transfers. Talk to your bank... they can help you set it up if needed. But if they are willing to use paypal - what really is your risk here? They are not requiring payment for anything. They simply want to cover cost of shipping you a hard copy - so what. They offered a PDF for free....

PDF and Paypall - where is the risk? You loose a copy of your image to some lunatic who is going to do what with it. You have lost what in the process? No need to expose your personal bank account.

50% of my business is done EFT... both directions.

[AndreaBFS]

I've done thousands of transactions with PayPal, so I'm honestly not paranoid. However, if you do have doubts or feel hinky about a transaction, it's important to know that PayPal isn't as risk free as it appears, especially when trading overseas for virtual merchandise.

I have had money taken directly out of my bank account because a buyer closed her checking account and didn't realize it was still her backup funding source. Thankfully she was honest and put the money back in her account, but it also took PayPal over a week to charge her various funding sources before giving up and coming back to me for the money.

One way they do it is by sending money, then pressuring for a refund or "accidentally" sending more than you requested and saying, "oops.. can you send that back to me?" Unfortunately it's more common than it should be. That's why I said to be careful and be aware... not to NEVER use PayPal, but to understand the kinds of scams that are out there.

[blackshadow]

Nearly all my client payments are directly into my bank account; much tidier to see the money in the bank and then release the photos.
It's pretty standard for direct bank deposits to be used in Australia. I think there is a lot of unwarranted paranoia being expressed in this thread.
Just because someone has your bank account number it doesn't give them access to your account!

[Doogiekr]

I think many of us from the US are automatically on the defensive when it comes to fraud, but I think when dealing with other countries its a good idea to check how they normally handle these types of transactions.

I dont know about this particular situation, but I deal with similar situations in South Korea and depositing money right into their bank account is normal. Here in Spain when I pay bills to my landlord, I have all of her banking info and make the deposit right into her account, which is very normal here.

Of course I think you should always be careful, but before jumping to conclusions maybe contact them and let them know you are uncomfortable with the banking information and find out if they have a different way of paying you.

[BrianAZ]

I work in the technology security group for one of the largest banks in the world. My primary role is leading a team of security consultants who perform risk assesments.

We consider your account number to be confidential, and you should too. All someone needs to commit fraud is your account number. Just ask mayor Bloomberg who was defrauded of over 200K a few months ago.

One of the hot attacks right now is to go after businesses. They ask for bank account information so they can transfer money to you. Non-profits are especially hit often. What they really intend to do is take the commercially available check printing software and paper and make their own checks.

Due to the huge volume of checks financial institutions receive, nobody actually looks at a check anymore. The MICR line, is scanned, and a dollar amount is stamped on the back of the check during the proofing process (that can be done at a teller line, or back room operation). It is all electronic. Nobody checks the name on the account, or the signature. At least, not until there is a dispute.

That is how mayor Bloomberg was hit. Some fraudsters found out one his his account numbers, and then they printed their own checks with his information. They had successfully stolen over $200,000 out of his checking account by using fake checks with his account information. The only reason they were caught is because the bank has an automatic flag for individual transaction over certain amounts (part of it is due to the federal reporting requirements regarding transactions over $10,000). Had they kept the amounts smaller, they would still be taking money from him today.

[Nightstalker]

If you don't like giving out your bank details would you ever pay for something by cheque?

Your bank details are on every cheque that you issue.

Don't forget that the rest of the world is not necessarily as SCAM oriented as the USA - there are honest people out there, honest.

[blackshadow]

If your account isn't a cheque account it should alleviate the cheque scam mentioned by BriamAZ

[daleftw]

Nearly all my client payments are directly into my bank account; much tidier to see the money in the bank and then release the photos.
It's pretty standard for direct bank deposits to be used in Australia. I think there is a lot of unwarranted paranoia being expressed in this thread.
Just because someone has your bank account number it doesn't give them access to your account!
Yep, I use it heaps as well. Not for photography stuff but for other things. Hell, people have organised events on forums and doled out their bank details to 50 people (as the event required prepayment)

[BrianAZ]

If you don't like giving out your bank details would you ever pay for something by cheque?

Your bank details are on every cheque that you issue.

Don't forget that the rest of the world is not necessarily as SCAM oriented as the USA - there are honest people out there, honest.

The number of actual checks being written is dropping considerably.

There is a couple of reasons for this. One is convenience. Credit Cards are taken most anywhere. They also offer fraud protection. For those places that still take checks, it is often a hassle.

I can't recall the last time I went to a grocery store, and saw someone paying with a check. Most people would prefer to use a debit/credit card.



I, personally, haven't written a check in about 5 years. Would I feel comfortable paying by check? Well, it depends. I'd be happy to write a check to pay a debt to someone I know, to give as a present, or with an established and trusted retailer.


Would I give anything that contains my account number, be it a check or wire transfer info, to someone outside the country, who I had never met, and who had only communicated by email this information? Hell no.

[ChrisRabior]

The cash made it into my paypal account today.

I think I'll let it sit there and accumulate a little interest with the paypal money market, so I don't end up getting burned if the transfer turns out to be bogus. I'd be bummed if I spent it and then had paypal remove it from my bank. In a month or two I'll probably put it towards an ultra wide lens.

[BrianAZ]

Good for you for going the Paypal route.

If they went so far as to actually send payment, then it is most probably likely that it is legit. Worse case scenario is that they file a claim to have the payment refunded.

[ChrisRabior]

Yeah, still keeping my fingers crossed that it's not a floated payment, but even then.. I'll probably see at least a money market bonus from interest and such. Not a total loss.. lol.

I'm interested in seeing what kind of brochure the guy is creating... guess I'll have to wait and see.

[cory1848]

Please let us know how this turns out. Glad its working well for you so far.

[CyberDyneSystems]

If he's really in Zürich, then exchanging bank numbers is as common as shaking hands :)

[cosworth]

He already has the image.

Bank data is one way. He can only put money in. Go for it.

[rcg]

Scam.

My terms are COD and deposits for new clients. 15 days for established. YMMV

[ChrisRabior]

In terms of having paypal payments floated...
I've heard of this before, so I'm still somewhat skeptical that it was a legit payment.
In either case, how long should I wait to be sure that it was a legit payment before I put that cash towards more equipment?

[Croasdail]

Scam.

My terms are COD and deposits for new clients. 15 days for established. YMMV

How many of these customers are international clients oversees. Plus, that model just doesn't translate to stock photography. Most corporate customers are net30, the ones I deal with would laugh at a deposit or COD terms. Oh course, that doesn't mean every customer works that way - so yours may be willing to work that way.

[rcg]

How many of these customers are international clients oversees. Plus, that model just doesn't translate to stock photography. Most corporate customers are net30, the ones I deal with would laugh at a deposit or COD terms. Oh course, that doesn't mean every customer works that way - so yours may be willing to work that way.

I only have a couple of international customers but that really doesn't change my shooting or licensing policy. Moreover with instant transmission of the media customers can just as easily transfer the funds. If a client wants the image they will work with my terms - as stated once we have worked together it's net 15. By having some strict guidelines with customers they get used to being prompt. I have had plenty of corporate entities string me out in my life that I would rather not work with an organization that doesn't pay.

To the OP the point of my post is have guidelines you can live with and stick to them. If you feel uneasy about a client then trust your instinct. Don't ignore them because youre excited.