How to make sharp edge shadow?

[gnnbtrn]

Here is the picture I took:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2383/2197781907_79071ec56b_o.jpg

I'd like to have sharp crisp shadow on the table,
I am using adorama's budget monolight as the only source, in almost completely dark room
I do not think the ambient light plays any role here.
But no matter how far or close I move the light, the shadow is fuzzy on edges, especially on the furthest part of the shadow.
What am I doing wrong?

Thank you!

[Wilt]

The light must be as close to a 'point source' as possible to produce the sharp edged shadow. While the flash lens is small, it still is not a true point source. You need to use a spotlight source to get the hard edged shadow, or move the flash far away from the subject (but then inverse square falloff kills you!)

[PacAce]

Use a flash instead of a monolight and zoom the flash head to the longest zoom position.

If you have to use the monolight, use a snoot to decrease the diameter of the light "seen" by the cup. A monolight with a reflector is a relatively large light source compared to the size of the cup.

How sharp did you want the edges, anyway. Remember that the farther the shadow is from the part that cast it, the softer the edge is so, even with a very small light source, you may still not get the edges the same sharpness all the way around.

[bieber]

Put a cardboard mask over the reflector with a small-ish hole in the middle. That oughta give you a nice, hard shadow

[Double Negative]

Use a snoot or barndoors - effectively shrinking the size of the light source.

[deconb]

According to David Hobby, light has a depth of field..

Good reading material for this topic and lots of general good small lighting info here:

strobist: Lighting 102: 1.2 - Position | Distance (http://strobist.blogspot.com/2007/06/lighting-102-12-position-distance.html)

[sparcd]

I would fire a snooted flash with the flash on full zoom. You only just want to cover the area of the cup.

[RichNY]

Or you could think outside the box and just get a much bigger coffee cup ;)

[TMR Design]

Sometimes it helps to see these things to understand how they work.

Others have already given the solution but I'll demonstrate.

The way to create the 'hardest light' is to work with the light as close to the subject as possible, thus creating the smallest light source possible, and to narrow or collimate the light with little to no diffusion. Snoots, Grids and Barn Doors will do the job and the tighter the beam of light, the better.

The samples below were shot with the strobe just out of frame and about 8 inches from the subject (the mug). I took 4 shots. First with just an 80 degree reflector and then using 40 degree, 20 degree and 10 degree grids. The difference between just using the reflector and the 10 degree grid is drastic and quite noticeable. The 2 grids in between have subtleties and you can see the progression but the 'hard edge' becomes most prominent when using the 10 degree grid. This is very obvious in the closeup shots.

[TMR Design]

Here is the picture I took:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2383/2197781907_79071ec56b_o.jpg

I'd like to have sharp crisp shadow on the table,
I am using adorama's budget monolight as the only source, in almost completely dark room
I do not think the ambient light plays any role here.
But no matter how far or close I move the light, the shadow is fuzzy on edges, especially on the furthest part of the shadow.
What am I doing wrong?

Thank you!

You're not doing anything wrong. You're just seeing falloff and the properties of light at work. If you want the least falloff and not as much diffusion at the far edge of the shadow then you need to change the angle and create a shorter shadow with a different angle of incidence on the subject. To exaggerate the point, you would have the crispest and tightest shadow if you are directly overhead and just off center enough to create a shadow but keeping it close to the mug. The further you go from the mug, the more diffused the light becomes, and the softer the shadow and transfer from shadow to diffuse.

This is also visible in my example above.

[PacAce]

Sometimes it helps to see these things to understand how they work.

Others have already given the solution but I'll demonstrate.

The way to create the 'hardest light' is to work with the light as close to the subject as possible, thus creating the smallest light source possible, and to narrow or collimate the light with little to no diffusion. Snoots, Grids and Barn Doors will do the job and the tighter the beam of light, the better.

The samples below were shot with the strobe just out of frame and about 8 inches from the subject (the mug). I took 4 shots. First with just an 80 degree reflector and then using 40 degree, 20 degree and 10 degree grids. The difference between just using the reflector and the 10 degree grid is drastic and quite noticeable. The 2 grids in between have subtleties and you can see the progression but the 'hard edge' becomes most prominent when using the 10 degree grid. This is very obvious in the closeup shots.

Robert, I think you have the part I bolded above backwards. The way to create the hardest light is to work as far from the subject as possible to create the smallest light source possible. Bringing a light source closer to the subject makes the light source get bigger relative to the subject. The best example of a very small light source is the sun which is physically very huge. ;)

[Wilt]

Robert, I think you have the part I bolded above backwards. The way to create the hardest light is to work as far from the subject as possible to create the smallest light source possible. Bringing a light source closer to the subject makes the light source get bigger relative to the subject. The best example of a very small light source is the sun which is physically very huge. ;)

Yup. Contrast is greater, when light is close. But 'point source' is approximated better when light is far.

Note that the 10 degree grid helps for shadow that is more proximal to the cup, but the farthest edges are still quite soft edged. It did little to the part of the shadow cast by the top rim of the cup.

It takes a focusing spot, plain and simple, to approximate a true 'point source'. Without a focusing spot, it would help to use a light source that has a removeable reflector, and use it bare tube.

[TMR Design]

Robert, I think you have the part I bolded above backwards. The way to create the hardest light is to work as far from the subject as possible to create the smallest light source possible. Bringing a light source closer to the subject makes the light source get bigger relative to the subject. The best example of a very small light source is the sun which is physically very huge. ;)

Or course Leo. I did have it backwards. Please excuse me. I'm nursing myself back from some sort of flu or bug.

[PacAce]

Or course Leo. I did have it backwards. Please excuse me. I'm nursing myself back from some sort of flu or bug.
No problem, Robert. Hope you're feeling better. I've been trying to get over a head cold myself the last two weeks. I think my grandson and I are just swapping germs 'cuz this is the longest I've ever had a head cold (I usually get over it in a couple of days).

[Wilt]

"Turn your head and cough..."

[gnnbtrn]

thanks everyone!
I was trying all night , but it never came out as I wanted :-(
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2046/2199059452_39d6a4e639_o.jpg

Thanks Wilt: I moved the light away about 10ft from the table.

Thanks PacAce and sparcd: the snoot worked

Thanks Double Negative: I have tried barn-doors, but the snoot was better.

Thanks TMRDesign: I got the idea, but wanted longer, not shorter shadows intentionally.
btw, do you like coffee too, as your avatar suggests? :-)

Thanks RichNY: as you see, I wanted the cups with the grinder, so the sizes should be compartible

However, using snoot at such distance (10ft) at max light output was not enough, and I had to bump the ISO to 250-320, and the shadow is still underexposed a little, though the metal and white cups are washed out.
Any solution?

And the problem remains, the shadow edges are not sharp, (see the grinder handle)
though it's better then the first cup picture posted.

PS. Please, C&C the picture

[TMR Design]

thanks everyone!
I was trying all night , but it never came out as I wanted :-(
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2046/2199059452_39d6a4e639_o.jpg

Thanks Wilt: I moved the light away about 10ft from the table.

Thanks PacAce and sparcd: the snoot worked

Thanks Double Negative: I have tried barn-doors, but the snoot was better.

Thanks TMRDesign: I got the idea, but wanted longer, not shorter shadows intentionally.
btw, do you like coffee too, as your avatar suggests? :-)

Thanks RichNY: as you see, I wanted the cups with the grinder, so the sizes should be compartible

However, using snoot at such distance (10ft) at max light output was not enough, and I had to bump the ISO to 250-320, and the shadow is still underexposed a little, though the metal and white cups are washed out.
Any solution?

And the problem remains, the shadow edges are not sharp, (see the grinder handle)
though it's better then the first cup picture posted.

PS. Please, C&C the picture

Hi gnnbtrn,

It looks like you've almost got what you want and what you're showing is pretty darn good.

I don't drink coffee and have not for the last 25 years. I'm a tea drinker. My avatar suggests I drink from a cup. :D

[hudge]

thanks everyone!
I was trying all night , but it never came out as I wanted :-(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2046/2199059452_39d6a4e639_o.jpg



...

And the problem remains, the shadow edges are not sharp, (see the grinder handle)
though it's better then the first cup picture posted.



It may be that at this point you've done all you can do with the camera and lights and now all that's needed is some PP on the shadows to get it more to your liking.

[gnnbtrn]

I don't drink coffee and have not for the last 25 years. I'm a tea drinker.
Did you ever miss it?

My avatar suggests I drink from a cup. :D
But your eyes say "coffee" to me :rolleyes:

[gnnbtrn]

It may be that at this point you've done all you can do with the camera and lights and now all that's needed is some PP on the shadows to get it more to your liking.

yea, will work more on it, I may re-shoot it, I think one of the cups needs to be filled.

[Consensus Trance]

However, using snoot at such distance (10ft) at max light output was not enough, and I had to bump the ISO to 250-320, and the shadow is still underexposed a little, though the metal and white cups are washed out.
Any solution?

And the problem remains, the shadow edges are not sharp, (see the grinder handle)
though it's better then the first cup picture posted.

PS. Please, C&C the picture

I could tell you the solution but you probably won't like the answer.

I think you're finding that gear matters. It's not possible to create the shadow quality you desire with the gear you're using. There are several solutions but they all cost money. For flash you would need a focusing spot to get a very hard edged shadow...something like this: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/16844-REG/Elinchrom_26420_Minispot_Projection_Attachment_for .html

Focusing spots can cost up to several thousand dollars and usually require a matching power pack or head. But, this would probably work perfectly for what you want to achieve.

Another way to produce hard edged shadows is with a focusing fresnel:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/111733-REG/Lowel_FR1_10_650W_Fresnel_with_Barndoors.html

Fresnels are used a lot in fashion and for still lifes where lighting is needed to reproduce the hard edged shadows of hte sun. Fresnels are not quite as easy to use on small sets as the focusing spot is like the elinchrom I showed before.

There is only so much you can do with snoots...grids...and moving lights around. I think you've already achieved about the best you can with the gear you're using.

[gnnbtrn]

I could tell you the solution but you probably won't like the answer.

I think you're finding that gear matters. It's not possible to create the shadow quality you desire with the gear you're using. There are several solutions but they all cost money. For flash you would need a focusing spot to get a very hard edged shadow...something like this: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/16844-REG/Elinchrom_26420_Minispot_Projection_Attachment_for .html

Focusing spots can cost up to several thousand dollars and usually require a matching power pack or head. But, this would probably work perfectly for what you want to achieve.

Another way to produce hard edged shadows is with a focusing fresnel:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/111733-REG/Lowel_FR1_10_650W_Fresnel_with_Barndoors.html

Fresnels are used a lot in fashion and for still lifes where lighting is needed to reproduce the hard edged shadows of hte sun. Fresnels are not quite as easy to use on small sets as the focusing spot is like the elinchrom I showed before.

There is only so much you can do with snoots...grids...and moving lights around. I think you've already achieved about the best you can with the gear you're using.

Thanks!
:)You are right, I don't like the solution :mad:
When I started photography, it was one of the main thing to avoid harsh shadows. Now, when I need it, I cannot produce it.

did you try any of the lenses yourself?

[Consensus Trance]

Thanks!
:)You are right, I don't like the solution :mad:
When I started photography, it was one of the main thing to avoid harsh shadows. Now, when I need it, I cannot produce it.

did you try any of the lenses yourself?

oh yeah definately. I shot food in an advertising studio for many years. I used a norman focusing spot and norman fresnel all the time to light sets.

For a small coffee cup like you're shooting...I would probably use the small focusing spot. If I were shooting a white cup that was losing detail and highlights were blowing out, then I would set a small finger scrim between the light source and the cup to knock down the light a half stop/full stop depending on what my eyes said looked right.

It's really easy with the right gear. I think that you're doing everything right...you just don't have the right gear for the shot.

The only alternative I can think of to producing a hard edged shadow without spending a ton of money is to move outside and shoot in direct sunlight??? Might just work???

Anyhow, good luck with your shooting. You've got a great eye for detail and the desire to improve...that is the sign of someone who can be a great photographer.

[TMR Design]

Did you ever miss it?


But your eyes say "coffee" to me :rolleyes:

Don't miss it one bit. I stopped drinking it because I hated it.

[Wilt]

I could tell you the solution but you probably won't like the answer.

I think you're finding that gear matters. It's not possible to create the shadow quality you desire with the gear you're using. There are several solutions but they all cost money. For flash you would need a focusing spot to get a very hard edged shadow...something like this: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/16844-REG/Elinchrom_26420_Minispot_Projection_Attachment_for .html

Focusing spots can cost up to several thousand dollars and usually require a matching power pack or head. But, this would probably work perfectly for what you want to achieve.

Another way to produce hard edged shadows is with a focusing fresnel:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/111733-REG/Lowel_FR1_10_650W_Fresnel_with_Barndoors.html

Fresnels are used a lot in fashion and for still lifes where lighting is needed to reproduce the hard edged shadows of hte sun. Fresnels are not quite as easy to use on small sets as the focusing spot is like the elinchrom I showed before.

There is only so much you can do with snoots...grids...and moving lights around. I think you've already achieved about the best you can with the gear you're using.


Thanks for confirming what I said...I was beginning to think everyone thought I was full of hot air on this one!

BTW you can get focusing spot attachements from a number of sources, and while not $2k, they are still pricey at $700. You can also get a cheap fresnel spot like Photogenic for about $150

[Cathpah]

Or you could think outside the box and just get a much bigger coffee cup ;)


HAHAHA....thanks for that. made me giggle.