White Balance Gurus--Step Inside

[Zivnuska]

This is my freshman year of shooting—yes, I’m a rookie. One of my challenges in shooting middle school basketball has been white balance. First, I tried fluorescent WB, then I shot RAW and tried to correct PP, then setting a custom temp in degrees Kelvin. Purchases of a grey card, white card and then the expodisc all followed. Well, I love the expodisc and it helped a lot but there were still problems. There were way too many pink and green walls in my shots. Far more than could be explained by light cycling.

Then I opened my eyes.

The walls looked green and pink because they were green---and pink. All the time! Not light cycling but really lit up like christmas.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q225/zivnuska/PrairieHills-145-3.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q225/zivnuska/PrairieHills-147-4.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q225/zivnuska/PrairieHills-123-2.jpg

The photos don’t do justice to the obvious color difference emanating from each bulb. The bulbs are pink and green shades of white and the areas they illuminate reflect the status/age of the bulb. Nobody notices, but once you look, the gym is a crazy quilt of colored lights. Each area of the gym is a different color due to the wide spacing of the bulbs.

I was frustrated, then angry, pissed, philosophical, resigned, and then I just laughed. It is funny when you think about it!


(Below is a very talented 7th grader who is a natural right handed player. I'm trying to do justice to her skills without the green wall.)

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q225/zivnuska/PrairieHills-64-1.jpg


I did get to shoot in a gym with good ambient light once.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q225/zivnuska/Maize2-120-3.jpg

Feel free to chip in with your nightmare lighting stories.

The distant buzzing of a swarm of Alien Bees is getting louder.

[dmwierz]

Z- Don't get mad :)

Here are my thoughts: The Exposdisc isn't gonna work real well here 'cuz you've got all kinds of different colored light hitting the court from many different directions. The Exposdics works best when you can point it at the light and be assured the light is consistent and is the dominant light source.

Each area of the gym is a different color due to the wide spacing of the bulbs.

If this is true, then I would pick an area where the light is consistent and stay within this area, using a grey card, placed vertically on the court, where it is receiving all the light colors. This ought to get you pretty close. Any light reflecting off a green wall, a pink wall, a yellow wall...whatever...it will all end up on your grey card, and will be taken into account when you shoot the CWB frame.

You will still get the impact of the lights cycling every so often, but unless you strobe or flash, there's nothing to be done about this.

In situations like this, all I can suggest is try to add some artificial light (in decreasing order of preference: Strobes; speedlites on stands; on-camera flash). This will allow you to overcome funky-colored lights and light cycling. However, you may still see some WB challenges from reflections off the odd-colored walls. For this reason, I would still do a CWB but do so with the strobes/flashes firing. In addition, I would shoot direct in order to minimize the reflected light coming off the walls.

Hope this helps.

Dennis

[Zivnuska]

Thanks Dennis. I appreciate the help! Any critiques of my shots are welcome and desired to help improve my skills. If you don't have enough work already ;), take a look at www.zivnuska.zenfolio.com (http://www.zivnuska.zenfolio.com) and critique to your hearts content!:D

Because of the funky walls/lights, I want to do some comparative testing of White Balance techniques. It should be interesting to compare the results of custom white balances of grey card, white card (as per manual of my Mark III), and the expodisc. One test at the free throw line and one on the corner of the baseline should yield some interesting results.

Unfortunately, if the walls look green and pink to my eyes, I don't see how I'll ever get rid of those colored walls in my pics. (as long as I shoot ambient)

As you suggest, the answer (for me) appears to be strobes. Hopefully, your sports photography podcast will discuss what I need to strobe a gym properly. Depth of field, white balance, stopping action, low iso (low noise) and the chance to use my 70-200 f2.8 IS have all convinced me.

I await instructions from the master!!

Cheers!

Z

[dmwierz]

Unfortunately, if the walls look green and pink to my eyes, I don't see how I'll ever get rid of those colored walls in my pics.

Z- Let's be clear about something. If the walls are green and pink, they should look green and pink in your pictures. If they are green and pink because of the lighting, then a CWB will take some of that away, and strobes will also help. What you want to look white is white, and you want flesh tones to be accurate. If you get this, then the color of the walls will be close to their actual color.

I have a similar issue when shooting hockey. Rarely are the ice, or the boards, white - but our eyes want them to look white. When i shoot a CWB off a grey card, then I can get the uniforms to look dazzlingly white, but then the ice and boards end up looking yellow (or blue, etc) which makes your eye think something is wrong with the white balance, but in fact, what is white is white, and what is yellow is yellow.

[GBRandy]

This stuff drives me nuts at the gyms I shoot at for gymnastics. I have a gray card, I tried using that as a custom WB....I finally gave up and shoot it all in raw and correct later as best I can.

I am more than half tempted to bring a ream of copy paper with me and tape sheets to the walls around the gym so I have them in the background as a place to reference when I correct WB during PP.....think the event organizers would let me?

The passers by would be looking at these blank white postings going "what the ....." :)

EDIT.....BTW, you aint seen nothing like I get to play with...here is an auto WB shot of the backboard of my favorite place to shoot....not....

http://www.ymcagymstars.com/2006_07_events/MandMJAlbum/WBSample.jpg

[Zivnuska]

Dennis,

The walls are not painted pink and green but they look that way because the nearby bulbs have a steady pink and green look to them. The pics of the bulbs don't adequately reflect this because of clipping of the images of the bulbs but one glance at the bulb and you know it is a pink (or green) bulb. This is a steady color -- not from cycling.

If I change the white balance enough to get rid of the green (or pink) wall, the skin tones are way off. Also, a pic like the third one (#11 in the center) with both pink and green in the walls would seem to be impossible to fix in a way that gets rid of both colors. (unless I strobe or flash)

Z

[GBRandy]

Z:

There is only one way for the camera or software to get all the colors correct...and that is to have a known white reference point somewhere in the processing chain. The rest of the colors are calculated based on that reference. You can either tell the sensor what your are playing with (daylight, fluorescent, etc) and it uses a predefined set of rules, or you can grey or white card it as a reference on custom....or you can do the same thing in the PP software if you shoot RAW, but the calculations and results are all the same.

If you try and use a wall you think to be white it should correct all other colors to look accurate. If it isn't doing that, and skin colors are off, then the wall is not white despite what your eyeballs are telling you....I think that is what Dennis is saying as well....make sense?

EDIT: Here is another post I did on some WB adjustments I made on a non sports related shot....http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=281247

[Zivnuska]

Z:

make sense?

EDIT: Here is another post I did on some WB adjustments I made on a non sports related shot....http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=281247

Yep! I appreciate the help.

PS--That is one ugly backboard! (at least in AWB!)

[jcpoulin]

I agree with Dennis...walls not important as is the white uniform and flesh tones. Never do gyms have pure white walls, there is always a tone change ( who would paint walls pure white when balls and hands are constantly hitting them!).I think your whites of the uniform look OK, perhaps some increase exposure in first player shot.

[dmwierz]

FWIW, here's my Custom White Balance shot from my most recent game shot at the United Center (a pro venue with great lighting). This was the ice in front of me after half of a period. I've found dirty (some "snow" on it) gives a better white reference than freshly-Zamboni'ed ice.

You tell me what color this is? I shot a series at 1/60s and took the ones that were the most prevalent (not the one that was an "off" color) to try and account for the light color cycling.

[Zivnuska]

Does the freshly zanboni'ed ice just reflect the background colors to your camera (mirror effect) while 'snow' on the ice accurately reveal the 'color' of the light hitting the snow?

[dmwierz]

Does the freshly zanboni'ed ice just reflect the background colors to your camera (mirror effect) while 'snow' on the ice accurately reveal the 'color' of the light hitting the snow?

Phil - Good question. I'm, not sure, but I believe it picks up the color of the LED banners, signs on the boards, etc, whereas the team's sweaters etc. are less responsive to this other light. Whatever the cause, the shots using the fresh ice were WAY too blue, and those with AWB were WAY too red. Like the 3 bears and their porridge, CWB off the dirty ice was just right...

[AdamLewis]

If this is true, then I would pick an area where the light is consistent and stay within this area, using a grey card, placed vertically on the court, where it is receiving all the light colors. This ought to get you pretty close. Any light reflecting off a green wall, a pink wall, a yellow wall...whatever...it will all end up on your grey card, and will be taken into account when you shoot the CWB frame.

Im a little confused here. Shouldnt the card be placed horizontally? Like laying flat on the court? That way all the light coming down from the lights would reflect back up into the camera and light from the walls would be coming at a more oblique angle and less would be reflected back up into the camera. Right?

[Sledhed]

good stuff Dennis

[dmwierz]

Im a little confused here. Shouldnt the card be placed horizontally? Like laying flat on the court? That way all the light coming down from the lights would reflect back up into the camera and light from the walls would be coming at a more oblique angle and less would be reflected back up into the camera. Right?


Adam - nope. You want to make sure you are receiving the same light as that which falls on the FACES and jerseys of the players, not the tops of their feet or the tops of their heads. Listen to my podcast for a story on what can happen if you orient the white card the wrong way.

In some cases; hockey; wrestling (or most martial arts, for that matter - think blue mats); gymnastics; etc., you frequently get a color cast from the light reflected off the "ground" that must be accounted for when doing a CWB. If you orient the white balance card horizontally and lay it on the playing surface, you are covering up this reflected light and your shots may have an unwanted hue.

Make sense?

Dennis

[AdamLewis]

Adam - nope. You want to make sure you are receiving the same light as that which falls on the FACES and jerseys of the players, not the tops of their feet or the tops of their heads. Listen to my podcast for a story on what can happen if you orient the white card the wrong way.

In some cases; hockey; wrestling (or most martial arts, for that matter - think blue mats); gymnastics; etc., you frequently get a color cast from the light reflected off the "ground" that must be accounted for when doing a CWB. If you orient the white balance card horizontally and lay it on the playing surface, you are covering up this reflected light and your shots may have an unwanted hue.

Make sense?

Dennis


Ah yes. That makes perfect sense now. I guess placing it vertically on the playing surface is the closest thing to placing the card next to the players face or something.
Thanks!