-NEWS- 16mp 1Ds MkII is "OUTCLASSED" ....

[CyberDyneSystems]

...before it even hits the streets! :shock:

Yep.. and it's NOT Nikon who upped the anti.

"Who?" you ask....?

None other than the Medium Format Masters at MAMIYA :wink: who have blown the lid off the 1Ds MkII's 16mp res with the Mamiya ZD digital SLR boasting a whopping 22MP Sensor :shock: :shock:

Read all about it here;

http://www.letsgodigital.org/html/events/PHOTOKINA-2004/news/mamiya/ZD_en.html

http://www.dalsa.com/pi/news/news.asp?itemID=165

[Hatem Eldoronki]

Yeah but the Mamiya is a medium format camera! It's sensor is almost twice the size of the 1DsMkII...

[DocFrankenstein]

I thought they've been around for some time. Before the mkII came out at least. :?

[aam1234]

I'm with Doc, I always thought MF are around 20 mp's. Not sure if there is anything new there.

[Pekka]

ALL the specs except resolution are much lower. ISO 400 max? No EOS? No thanks. It looks like these days people forget what makes a good camera and concentrate on what makes a good scanner.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Doc and AAM123

There are two factors that make this different.

1. Not just a back. It is in an entire SLR package that is in fact smaller and lighter than the 1Ds MkII (as opposed to just being a back for a medium format)

2. Price point.. this camera is looking to be released at approx $1K - $2K more than the 1Ds mkII.

Historicaly,. a medium format back alone would be easily twice the cost of the 1Ds MkII.

Yep,.. personally I'd still rather have a 1Ds.. no question there..

But suddenly.. Canon has competition for the high resolution SLR market.
Maybe we have more than just Nikon in the game to help drive prices down 8)

[EXA1a]

At least it's interesting to see the status of today's sensor technology. I find it amazing that it's possible to build a sensor with the same pixel density of the old 1Ds but twice the size. If you just calculate the Megapixels of an MF sensor with the pixel size/density of a PowerShot G6, you would theoretically end up with 320 MP...
http://www.bidencap.de/SensorSize.jpg
http://www.bidencap.de/PixelSize.jpg

Have fun!
--Jens--

[DocFrankenstein]

And you can get a MK II as LOW as 8000$ ? :shock: :wink: :lol:

[CyberDyneSystems]

As far as specs.. again I concur.. the Canon SLRs completely mop up the floor with this offereing. But did you notice the dynamic range?

It looks to be about 12 stops!

14 bit color per channel...

Some good things going on.. it all adds up to benifit for us purchasers.

Thanks for the graphics Exa1a.. awesome!

[Hatem Eldoronki]

Agreed.
How much? $20-30k?

One day, they'll make disposable sensors on a roll, and call it "Film MarkII".

[CyberDyneSystems]

Nope.. there saying $9,000.00 street :shock:

This is the whole point.. it actually competes with the 1Ds pricewise.

[12345Michael54321]

The nice thing about the larger sensor of the Mamiya ZD is that if you shoot chromes with the camera, they'll be much easier to edit on a light table. (Similar advantage to examining contact sheets made from the ZD's digital negatives.)

Now, does anyone know if Kodak will be announcing a digital-ready version of Dektol, at Photokina?

[CyberDyneSystems]

My mistke 9-10,000.00 EUROS... not dollars.. so what does that translate to and what does a 1Ds cost in euros?

[Hatem Eldoronki]

I am :shock: :shock: :shock: too! I missed that part in the report...1 Still want and love and need a 1Ds, or MkII (either one)!
Can't wait to see samples...

[EXA1a]

My mistke 9-10,000.00 EUROS... not dollars.. so what does that translate to and what does a 1Ds cost in euros?
The new 1Ds MkII is 8,000 Euros in Germany. That would translate to almost 10,000 USD but actually it's less than 8,000 USD, right?

[CyberDyneSystems]

So they are priced about 1k - 2k "units of currency" apart .. either way. :wink:

[Scottes]

The price is nice, but what about lenses?

The *camera* may be $2,000 more, but now add a few good lenses and where are you now?


However, 12 stops is simply amazing, regardless of price. I could take a heck of a Chickadee picture with 12 stops.
:D

[DocFrankenstein]

How many stops does the rebel sensor capture? 5-6? :?:

[rodbunn]

You can't get a $65 50mm 1.8 lense for the Mamiya like
you can for the Canon ! I like Mamiya but that's way too
much money for me. I enlarge my 10D Raw photos that I
convert to tiff up to 20x24 and they look great to me.

Personally, I'll take Canon any day.

Just HAD to sound off.... Rod

What am I saying, I still have my Mamiya RB67 in the closet ;-)

[Mthorpe_Davies]

The price is nice, but what about lenses?

The *camera* may be $2,000 more, but now add a few good lenses and where are you now?


However, 12 stops is simply amazing, regardless of price. I could take a heck of a Chickadee picture with 12 stops.
:D

After looking on BH Photo the price of Mamiya glass isn't all that different from L glass. Heck if you buy a 1d Mk11 you're going to be buying L primes as the beast is too good to use even the best L zooms. The Mamiya is taylor made for fine art, landscape and fashion photography where speed isn't really needed.

I bet many ex Mamiya owners (and other former MF users) who moved to 1Ds will start to think about moving back, especially if they haven't sold there Mamiya gear.

[Ferdinand]

CDS question is, will you get it? :P

[12345Michael54321]

I probably won't buy the Mamiya ZD, no.

But if it ushers in a generation of medium format digital cameras, I may ultimately buy one of them. Maybe a 48 megapixel 6x7 Mamiya, for $5000, weighing less than 8 lbs. and having a decent set of lenses available at non-astronomical prices. Yeah, I could definitely see myself buying something like that in a few years.

Then again, I prefer shooting landscapes, to capturing peak sports action at 8 fps. (Not that I have any problem with people who prefer photographing a football game, to photographing a mountain.) So for my needs, it isn't overwhelmingly important that the camera have a lightning fast burst mode, or 45-spot auto-focus.

I didn't buy one of the first miniature format digital SLRs. But I do own a couple of the Canon digitals that evolved from those early efforts. Let me see what comes of this Mamiya digital medium format camera, before I decide whether one of the Mamiya's descendants is in my future.

[roanjohn]

..............maybe a dumb question............

BUT!!! What are the odds that Canon will manufacture a sensor about the same size as that new Mamiya?? and call it 1Ds Mark III???

.........or is this impossible because of the lenses??!!??

just asking.

Ro1

[12345Michael54321]

What are the odds that Canon will manufacture a sensor about the same size as that new Mamiya??
I wouldn't bet on it.

Canon doesn't have much interest in medium format cameras. Canon's never had much interest in medium format cameras. They're just not its thing. While Mamiya has long been one of the major players in the medium format world.

and call it 1Ds Mark III???They certainly wouldn't call it the 1Ds Mark III. It would have virtually nothing in common with the 1Ds Mark II, after all.

or is this impossible because of the lenses??!!??It'd take a new line of lenses. Right. Bigger, heavier lenses. Probably with more limited zoom ranges, smaller maximum apertures, and higher price tags.

[ron chappel]

Be carefull about believing the hype!!!! :evil:

Canon states that the 1D mkII can capture 8.5 stops but everyone knows that's not remotely true.

Overall this sounds like a very interesting development though :D
So even in digital we can now have 'negative' size envy :lol: :P :P

[EXA1a]

Canon states that the 1D mkII can capture 8.5 stops but everyone knows that's not remotely true.
Okay then I am the exception. Can you explain, please?
Thanks
--Jens--

[ron chappel]

Ok Jens,sorry for my grumpy blanket statement :D
Do a test with your camera
Point it at a plain wall that has some minor detail and take a bunch of pics.With the camera set to manual simply take a series of under and over exposed pics to see how far you can go before there in nothing but noise or pure white.
My 300D comfotably does 5.5 stops.or 6.5 if one wants to get super technical and say 'there is SOMETHING there i think...' :lol:

[CoolToolGuy]

The price is nice, but what about lenses?

The *camera* may be $2,000 more, but now add a few good lenses and where are you now?

:D

Exactly - try pricing out the same coverage that you get from the 16-35 L, 24-70 L, and 70-200 L. :shock: :shock: :shock:

Another item that will slowly creep into the Mamiya online forums - this camera has a crop factor for those lenses, since they are made for a 60x45mm frame. Wait until they start debating the crop factor over there! :wink:

Have Fun,

[Deckyon]

Apples and Oranges here... As stated above, the Mamiya is a Medium Format Camera, not 35mm. I saw this too, and while intriguing, not practical for me, at least. BTW, hasn't Leaf already had a 20+MP Digital Back for existing MF cameras?

[ron chappel]

Yeah,large high res sensors have been around for ages.
...but as CDS says,this one is geuinely 'inexpensive',in a small package...and may even have other very good features.

On the other hand-just like the full frame kodak bodies,this medium mamiya may have lots of pixels and be cheap but doesn't measure up as an overall package

It still is an amazing price though :shock:

[CyberDyneSystems]

CDS question is, will you get it? :P

Nope... really no way I'd start the lens investment again. But even with the right lenses.. I won't be looking at a 1Ds either.. I simply have no need for that kind of resolution... and I CERTAINLY don't have the CPU performnace required to post proccess a 16MP file... even the MkII's 8.2MP files are pushing my system to the limit.

[Jay Todd]

I don't think most of us here have much use for this size camera and information. Two years ago my work bought an 11MP back for a motorized Hassie, a 120 and 180 lens, all for around 30 grand. To be able to double the info for almost a third the price is going to be very appealing to catalog studios.

[Mthorpe_Davies]

ALL the specs except resolution are much lower. ISO 400 max? No EOS? No thanks. It looks like these days people forget what makes a good camera and concentrate on what makes a good scanner.

At bit of plagiarism here

"I don't think you understand where Mamiya stands on photography. This new camera is not focused on wildlife photographers, nor sports photographers, but studio, commercial, fashion photographers (people that use MF gear already). We really don't want an equivalent of a 600mm lens on a 35mm body, because we don't want to have to shoot the model from the other side of the road... Most MF shooters will have around 3 lens, and 99% of them will be primes, so no need for an extensive line of lens..."

Kinda sums up what this system is all about.

[gmitchel]

Yeah but the Mamiya is a medium format camera! It's sensor is almost twice the size of the 1DsMkII...

Yes, 20MP on a medium back and 16.7MP on a 35mm sensor means smaller photosites for the 1Ds MkII. Unfortunately, there is more at work for image resolution than photosite size.

Michael Reichmann has compared the two at his site (www.luminous-landscape.com).

You need to keep in mind that 645 lens typically have more resolving power than 35mm lenses. For landscape and portrait photography, a full frame 645 at 20MP should outresolve a full frame 35mm 16.7MP DSLR.

There's a lot to recommend a full frame 35mm DSLR. I own a 1Ds MkII and adore it. But I know it cannot outresolve a Mamiya 645 full frame digital back. ;) Think more convenient size, wider DOF, and easier ability to go super telephoto for 35mm, among other comparative advantages.

Cheers,

Mitch

[WestFalcon]

I have a Mamiya 645Af and 4 lenses. This should help when I sell them on Ebay. Using a 20D and a 645 are completely different beasts. I don't know about the newest Mamiya but the Mamiya's autofocus is like focusing in slow motion. It groans and struggles but its better than manual focus. It's loud and slow. the pictures are beautiful however but I'd never go back to my mamiyas unless they sold the back for $2000. Even at that, I would still use my 20D's for most things. They are for studio work or slow moving action. They weigh a ton too. They have nothing resembling a USM focusing system.

[HKFEVER]

Mamiya MF equirements in film actually cost less than 1DsMKII and L lens.

But I sold all my MF gear, because I can't foresee that my client must have MF format for the job.

[scottbergerphoto]

ALL the specs except resolution are much lower. ISO 400 max? No EOS? No thanks. It looks like these days people forget what makes a good camera and concentrate on what makes a good scanner.
I love it! Well said Pekka.
Scott

[Ajay213]

ALL the specs except resolution are much lower. ISO 400 max? No EOS? No thanks. It looks like these days people forget what makes a good camera and concentrate on what makes a good scanner.

Resolution is the biggest reason why you would go medium format (film or digital). As to not having higher ISO, big deal. The majority of people shooting MF don't care to have 800/1600/3200 ISO (B&H has 8 pages of 25-400ISO film, half a page of 800-3200 film). As to not having EOS, well nobody except Canon has EOS because it's Canon's name for auto-focus (which most Mamiya's do have).

If you think Canon is the all end be all of quality picture capturing tools, then you really need to do some more research. Just about any of the MF digital backs will produce image quality well beyond what you see in any 35mm SLR type digital camera. 35mm is a great format, the 35mm (and close to 35mm) digital formats are great as well. But they are built for a purpose, and unfortunately the utmost/top quality is not the highest on the list, or maybe I should say that 35mm trades off quality for ease of use, portability, etc. You can't even begin to compare 2 images one done at 35mm and one in medium format (let's say something small like 6x6), and MF doesn't compare to the quality you get in large format.

[CoolToolGuy]

Now, about that crop factor - what is it on the Mamiya? :rolleyes: ;)

Have Fun,

[CyberDyneSystems]

Ajay,
I hear what you are saying,. and I understand that MF and large format cameras offer a print quality that remains unsurpassed,..

However,. to me "No EOS" is a more significant statement than you interpreted it to be.. as the EOS sysytem offers everything that I require for my shooting style and subject.

This is true for many others as well in different lines of photography. Me, it's wildlife,. I need portability, ruggedness for outdoor all weather use, and lenses of 500mm or more.

MF does not offer this,. so it will allways be a "no go" for my purposes,
Sport photographers we have similar deamnds, demands that are currently best met by the EOS line.

Lastly ,. with thousands invested in the EOS system,. the ONLY thing that would make me switch is if the line were completely discontinued and and hopelessly left behind.

Another example is the nice little Minolta 7D,. I literllay drool over the Idea of camera that would turn my 500mm f/4.5 NON IS inot an IS equipped system.. I would definately trade a 10D for the Minolta 7D for this featuyre alone,.. IF the camera would fit on my 500mm EOS mount lens...

But alas,. the Minolta has "No EOS". :)

I'm pretty sure this is what was meant by "No EOS" ,. I doubt it was the name itself.

I won't delve further into what makes the difference between medium format and 35mm systems as most posters have discussed this in this thread allready.. other than to say;

Different tools for different jobs.

Just FYI for those finding this thread now.. this -=News=- flash was posted in September ;)

[gmitchel]

Now, about that crop factor - what is it on the Mamiya? :rolleyes: ;)

Have Fun,

None. It's full frame 645.

Cheers,

Mitch

[ron chappel]

There's an interesting article on luminouslandscape.com about the factory that make this mamiya sensor.
aparently all the larger format sensors they make there are actually stiched together from smaller ones !! (any subtle join lines are 'removed' in the firmware)
I have no idea how they do that so succesfully but they do
This would be a clue as to how on earth they make the ZD so 'cheap' anyway

[Longwatcher]

Okay let me see I want to trade my $8000 1DsMKII for a $12-16,000 camera which has a frame rate of 1.5FPS, a top ISO of 400, max shutter speed of 1/4000, no high-speed sync (not that I use that one very often) and a selection of lenses I can count on just my hands. Sounds a lot like the Kodak SLR/C I passed up 6 months ago (except the price and the Kodak can use my existing lenses). On top of that I would have to get the lenses which all cost about twice what Canon "L" lenses of similiar range/aperture cost. The only pluses are resolution and maybe dynamic range of the sensor.

Not at this time...However should I win the lottery, that would be a different story.

Seriously, I expect that at some point if I start making enough money off of my photography and I keep wanting to do it, I would eventually feel the need to go medium format, but I suspect I would/will pick a different brand then Mamiya.

On the other hand there is a bit of jealousy involved as I can't afford that one, even if I wanted it.

[HKFEVER]

You can't even begin to compare 2 images one done at 35mm and one in medium format (let's say something small like 6x6), and MF doesn't compare to the quality you get in large format.
You are right, I kind of miss my Mamiya.

Same lighting, same setting, 645 is already noticeably richer colour than 35mm.

[BigRed450]

Ok Jens,sorry for my grumpy blanket statement :D
Do a test with your camera
Point it at a plain wall that has some minor detail and take a bunch of pics.With the camera set to manual simply take a series of under and over exposed pics to see how far you can go before there in nothing but noise or pure white.
My 300D comfotably does 5.5 stops.or 6.5 if one wants to get super technical and say 'there is SOMETHING there i think...' :lol:

Interesting experiment Ron, however, this is more an experiment for sensor sensitivity at a given EV. Simply overexposing or underexposing by a few stops till it blows out or blocks up does not tell the story.
Dynamic Range (DR) in this instance is simply the ability of the sensor to capture X# of stops of light in a single image without blowing out the highlights or totally blacking the shadows. A more acurate test for DR is to photograph a scene in which you have a bright sky with white clouds and deep dark shadows. Take spotmeter readings from the brightest areas, the darkest areas, and a few inbetween mid tones. Bracket your exposures then load these images into the computer and with your spot meter data you can determine the DR. I have not tested my 1D mk2 yet however my 10D tested out to over 7 stops when underexposed by 1-2 3rds stop.

Take a look at the new Fuji High DR Senor (S3 Pro). One set of photosites reads highlights while the other set reads shadow detail then combined within the camera to yeild high DR. You can do this same process yourself with your D Rebel, just take a RAW image, process one for highlights, then process another for shadow detail and combined, or better yet put camera on a tripod and take two separate images, exposing one for the sky and one for the shadows, then combine in PS.. Same deal...

[picture-this]

Hi Folks sorry a bit off topic but with all these leaps forward in profesional digital camera sensors in the last year when do you see full 35mm frame sensors comming to a upgraded version of the 20D? Or even the Rebel series for that matter...Just give me a 20D with full frame now dammit. Thanks

[WestFalcon]

Hi Folks sorry a bit off topic but with all these leaps forward in profesional digital camera sensors in the last year when do you see full 35mm frame sensors comming to a upgraded version of the 20D? Or even the Rebel series for that matter...Just give me a 20D with full frame now dammit. Thanks

Sorry but I think Canon is more concerned with their marketing strategy than what would make us happy. They are making the Efs(is that the right term?)lens for the smaller sensors and that would hurt their sales. They want to keep giving us a little improvement at a time so "saps"like me will buy the D30,D60,10D & 20D.....yup, I bit on all of them about 6-12 months apart. They got a lot of money from me!!! If they came out with a full frame sensor for the 20D, lots of people might stop buying every 6-12 months. So, I think that Canon is slowly improving products so we can keep buying and buying...good strategy for them(bad for me). With lenses, people buy a 24-70 L and probably will have that for 10 years or more. I think camera bodies are like ink jet printers, new models come out every 6 months. So don't look for Canon to go full frame for a long time unless Nikon forces their hand but why would they want to ruin the gradual slow improvement technique, its good for their bottom line too. Well, that's my marketing theory for what it's worth.

[ron chappel]

Thanks Jeff,interesting comments.

I saw the fuji s3 pro comparison on luminous landcspe where he takes pics of a contrasty scene with the S3 and 20D to compare them
Sadly the S3 is not as brilliant as claimed

This has got me thinking about acurate repeatable tests for sensor dynamic range.I've got a couple of ideas,i'll try a few things...

[BDM]

I suspect Hasselblad has more to be concerned about than Canon. Mamiya and Hasselblad have been in close competition for several years now in the North American medium format studio camera market. This unit sounds a lot less expensive than anything Hasselblad can offer at the moment. I also think that the many pros who are looking to use their existing investment of Mamiya lenses in a digital shooting mode should be happy with the new product.

I believe it may be more significant because of the price pressure it will exert on medium format digital backs which have long been very expensive - - too expensive for anyone but high volume shooters who can recover the cost in shot order from savings in film and processing expenses. If they can get such backs to be close to full frame (the number of pixels is of lesser importance) and maintain a reasonably affordable price, things will be interesting indeed.

As far as speed is concerned - - EI 400 is very fast for a studio environment. The folks who would use such products are probably using them in the studio with mucho speed lighting. High imaging speed is just not necessary. These things aren't going to be used for candid, available light shooting.

Bruce