er..colour management..I think?

[deadbeat]

Hi. I'm sorry if this is a tedious and oft repeated q (I have tried to search, honest) I am a beginner to this stuff.

Ok. my Canon i455 prints nice photos and graphics (I actually bought it to do some very short runs of brochures for my business) but the colours are not the same as on the screen. They seem to have a red/purple cast. This is not too obvious on photos, but some of the colours in the graphics I've used look plain wrong. I'm only using PS Elements 1.
To try and solve the problem I made a graphic of a grey gradient. It looks fine on the screen but it has a tint on the print that could be best described as purple (I'd say aubergine!)It's less obvoius at the dark end of the print. As I set the RBG values in Elements to a neutral grey, I've arrived at the conclusion that my printer is not doing what it's supposed to. Is there anything I can do other than endless trial and error tweaking the colour correction in the printer driver?
Thanks

[Jesper]

Welcome to the world of colour management...

The first thing you need to do if you want to get what you see on your monitor look like your prints, is calibrate your monitor - i.e. setup your monitor so that it displays the colours accurately. Calibrating your monitor will probably help to get rid of a large part of the colour cast. Here are some links:

Guidelines for accurate monitor display (http://www.ltlimagery.com/monitordisplay.htm)
Monitor Calibration and Profiling (http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/monitor_calibration.htm)

If you really want to do it right, you'll have to learn how colour management works. In short, after calibrating your monitor you'll need to profile it (create an ICC profile that describes to your computer how the monitor renders colours). You'll also need an ICC profile that describes how your printer renders colours on the specific type of paper with the specific type of ink you're using. The colour management system in your computer uses the ICC profiles to correct the colour information in such a way that colours will look the same on the monitor and printer.

Have a look at the articles at Computer Darkroom (http://www.computer-darkroom.com/home.htm). There are articles about setting up colour management in Photoshop CS and how to use colour management when printing. Unfortunately, PS Elements doesn't have all the colour management features that Photoshop CS has, but the articles might be useful anyway.

If you want to know exactly how it all works, read Real World Color Management (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0201773406/qid=1096793711/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-8382170-6039931?v=glance&s=software&n=507846) by Photoshop guru Bruce Fraser.

Search the forums for "color management" and you'll find more answers.

[deadbeat]

Yikes. There's a whole lot to this. Like, there's not a button I can press that will do it for me? :wink:
Thanks for the links. I'm picking my way through them and a lot of that stuff seems very technical to me. My problem is quite limited in a way. I just want to get the monitor and the printer to do the same thing. I'm not worried about how it might look on other screens or printers. A lot of the stuff on color management seems to be about ensuring that stuff looks consitent across a wide range of outputs and monitors, so it seems like overkill for my small set up.
I struck upon the idea of working the other way round and trying to tweak my monitor so it looks like my printer rather than the reverse. I just printed of a test sheet and mucked about with the Adobe Gamma utility until the screen looked pretty much like the print. Is that a dumb thing to do? It's a whole lot easier.
But many thanks for the links. I'm getting a rudimentary understanding of this now.

[ejwebb]

I, too have struggled with this issue and for now have opted not to incur the expense of purchasing the hardware and software necessary to properly calibrate my system. I experimented with various suggestions from others on this forum and came up with a setup that works reasonably well. Some pictures and certain colors still cause some issues but none too serious. I get decent results that work well enough for my purposes without it (including compliments on my prints from those with properly calibrated systems!) - although one day I'll probably bite the bullet...

Here is what I do - you can give it a shot:

Take Adobe gamma out of the start menu and revert back to the factory supplied monitor profile. The changes you made to the contrast and brightness of your monitor while you were adjusting Adobe gamma were probably fine so don't mess with them. Make sure your color temperature for the monitor is set for daylight (6550K on mine).

In Elements go to Edit/Preferences and select "full color management". This allows Elements to recognize and use color profiles available in the image (I think). Open a photo and go to File/Print Preview and checkmark "more options" then select "color management" and under Print Space/Profile below select "Printer Color Management". This allows the printer driver to handle color managment of the image instead of Elements. I try not to mess with the color balance in my images (maybe a little saturation increase for printing) unless it is obviously off since I know I cannot trust what I see 100%. If the image really needs color correction try using the Enhance/Correct Color Cast tool clicking on white/black points in the image until you get the correct pixel to bring it all in balance.

Now - on the same print preview page select Page Setup/Printer/Properties and make sure that you have selected the proper paper and quality settings for the paper you are using. Also ensure that ICM is turned off (you can try it on and off to see what happens but mine is off). I have an S820 Canon printer so our driver software may be different but you should have something similar to work with.

I recommend you use Canon papers - I like the Photo Paper Pro for gloss and the Matte paper. I also like Ilford Gallerie Classic Pearl - they provide Canon printer settings. Using other paper is hit or miss - some may work very well if you get the settings right and some may not. Start with one of the Canon papers.

I am sure we will get other comments more technical than mine - and probably more "correct" but it works well for me now and is worth a shot!!

[maderito]

I struck upon the idea of working the other way round and trying to tweak my monitor so it looks like my printer rather than the reverse. I just printed of a test sheet and mucked about with the Adobe Gamma utility until the screen looked pretty much like the print. Is that a dumb thing to do? It's a whole lot easier.

Certainly not a dumb idea - but potentially frought with problems.

If you use the printer has your independent standard for color reproduction:

1. You need a standard reference image to send to the printer. You can tune things so that a given image has a great match between printer and monitor only to discover that another image does not. The reference image should have a broad representation of printable colors.

2. After time, when you lose the match between the printer and the computer, it will be hard to know what has changed - printer or monitor.

3. You get into real trouble when your output is other than the printer - e.g. a web pic to share with others. This problem is less obvious - but possibly the most annoying and difficult to evaluate since you've tuned your system for prints, not web images.

This all assumes a consistent and accurate workflow from image capture, to image editing, to printing. By consistent and accurate, I mean that your color profiles are properly handled, that the color management engines in the image editing application (e.g. Photoshop) and the printer (printer driver) are correctly set up, and that the image transition from one application or device to the next is handled properly in the various preferences and options that have to be chosen.

I would recomend that your start by calibrating your monitor with Adobe Gamma (far from ideal but better than nothing) using your eyes - not a print - and then trying to figure you what is wrong with your printer, printer driver or color management workflow that is giving you poorly rendered prints. That of course was the basis for your original question for which I don't have an answer, since I don't know the details of your setup.

Here is a good reference print to work with:
http://www.gballard.net/nca.html#getagoodfile
Load it into Photoshop and use Adobe RGB as your working color space. If it doesn't look right on your monitor or when printed, then you have a problem. You may need to convert it to sRGB color space for your printer.

[ejwebb]

I know everyone recommends using Adobe Gamma and it is probably the most correct way to do it but I am only offering you my alternative as I tried everything and was never able to get a printer/monitor match with Adobe Gamma. Problem could be that it asks for information I do not have regarding my monitor - know what your "phosphor" settings are? I researched and read and could never really find much help on getting Adobe Gamma set up correctly.

Maybe when Elements 3.0 comes out I will try it again...

[Jesper]

Adobe Gamma is better than no calibration or profiling at all, but it's certainly not a really good solution.

If you really want an accurate profile for your monitor, you'll need to buy and use a hardware calibration device such as a ColorVision Spyder (http://www.colorvision.com), Gretag Macbeth Eye One (http://www.i1color.com/) or Monaco Optix XR (http://www.monacosys.com/). Those are all devices that can measure exactly how your monitor displays colours. It's much better to use a device with the accompanying software instead of using a software-only solution such as Adobe Gamma and use your own eyes as the measuring device. Your eyes are not very accurate for measuring colours. Your perception of colours depends a lot on the ambient light etc.

I started with Adobe Gamma myself, but I wasn't satisfied so I bought a Spyder, and it works MUCH better than Adobe Gamma.

[ejwebb]

I know everyone recommends using Adobe Gamma and it is probably the most correct way to do it but I am only offering you my alternative as I tried everything and was never able to get a printer/monitor match with Adobe Gamma. Problem could be that it asks for information I do not have regarding my monitor - know what your "phosphor" settings are? I researched and read and could never really find much help on getting Adobe Gamma set up correctly.

WEll, I had to get a new printer and ended up with a closeout 9100 which produces very nice photos!! I decided to go ahead and try Adobe Gamma again since my monitor/print were somewhat off. However, this time I tweaked the red/green/blue gamma controls with a just -printed photo in front of me and the same picture up on the screen in Elements. I was able to get the match musch closer!! It remains to be seen how this tweaking affects othe photos but hopefully it is an improvement. Previously when I used Adobe Gamma I just focused on the little gamma boxes and not the reality of how they were impacting the photos on the screen - don't know why I never thought to do this before!

Anyway, I wanted to take back my recommendations to disable Adobe Gamma and discuss my new method for tweaking the gamma - is this what others do?

I see calibration equipment under the Xmas tree this year but have a question. Since the screen and paper have inherent differences, an exact match is not possible, even with calibration. So, how do I know that what I have now is not as good as it gets? Will I be disappointed with the difference in results with calibration?

Thanks, and sorry if I led anyone astray!!

[syburn]

Hi - I dont use a printer so Im wondering if it will be easier to Calibrate by just using software. I only want to make web content. Do I have to calibrate LCD monitor and photoshop seperately?

If I print I will go out to a specialist printers, but thats not often.

Simon

[CyberDyneSystems]

FYI..

This is NOT the "right" way to do this....

But,..
If the idea of all this is freaking you out.. you may want to try this simple option.

Again.. this is not going to solve all your color issues.. and depending on your monitor etc.. it may do nothing.

However I and some others (including one of the developers of RawShooter) have found this to be an alternative that often works well.. without the time invested in dedicated calibration.

1. Shoot in Adobe RGB OR Convert images to Adbe RGB Working space.
2. Set your working space in PSCS to Adobe RGB
3. (and here's the weird part) Go into Display Properties/settings and change your monitors color profile to Adobe RGB (1998)

You may be surprised how well this can work.

[UncleDoug]

Some of the Color Manageent "Hacks" described here will work great! :D

PROVIDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1. You do not plan to have your adjusted images printed anywhere else.
2. You do not plan to use your adjusted images as stock images.

The "Hacks" are nothing new.
This is what was going on prior to implementation of ICC Color Management workflows. The purpose of Color Management was/is to provide a common way to describe how color is represented so that you could exchange images with someone who is also ICC compliant and have the colors rendered as intended.

Once you do not follow some form of ICC compiant workflow, working with images outside your own reality can become a real challenge. ;)

[UncleDoug]

I see calibration equipment under the Xmas tree this year but have a question. Since the screen and paper have inherent differences, an exact match is not possible, even with calibration. So, how do I know that what I have now is not as good as it gets? Will I be disappointed with the difference in results with calibration?


EJ,

You got it. Monitor - transmissive, Paper - reflective.
You got it, again. An exact, perfect, spitting-image rendition is impossible because of the affore mentioned monitor-paper issue. But with an ICC compliant workflow, properly calibrated and profiled scanner-monitor-printer combo, and relatively close ICC/ISO compliant ambient lighting conditions, you'd be amazed at how close you CAN get.

IF you observe the above mentioned scenario, calibrating and profiling, you will not be dissapointed at all.

You may want to try ColorValet from ProfileCity (http://profilecity.com/) for an initial profiling of your printer-resolution-media-inkset combo.