Motorboats, what to charge?

[Mint_Sauce]

I've been asked to quote on shooting some motorboats/yachts, I would most likely charge per day, say 9am-5pm with the processing etc being included in the daily charge.

I was wondering what would be a 'correct' charge per day, bearing in mind I may have to process around 30-50 images, perhaps more the next day. I'm in the UK.

I will be using a 1ds mk3 and L lenses for this and I would consider myself a professional now.

Thanks for any guidance, could be my first pro job!

[LBaldwin]

Henley,

This is considered a commercial gig even in the UK. How much you charge is pretty much wide open, but there are quite a few factors to consider.

Most professionals start with what is called a CODB or Cost of Doing Business.
This is the daily-weekly-monthly expenses that you pay to keep your business afloat and running smoothly. Some standard expenses to consider are:

1. Web access
2. Camera wear and tear
3. Insurance (if you don't have it get it BEFORE this shoot)
4. Computer time
5. Cell phone / communiations
6. Office equipment and consumables- printers, paper, faxes etc
7. Photographic consumables - tape, bags, paper BG, batteries, CF cards, etc
8. Shoot specific gear purchases, reflectors, stands lighting etc
9. Electricity, gas, water.
10. Rent for your work space

These items all need to be considered PRIOR to sending a quote. Once you know these costs then you can go on to consider the costs of the specific shoot itself such as;

1. Rental gear
2. Shoot specfic consumables
3. Cell calls - communication
4. Travel /time & expenses, gas, train or transit fares
5. Computer time _it is always an extra expense over prep and shoot time
6. Assistants
7. Special clothing or safety gear.

Then using this information you can more readily decide what to charge over your expenses to make it profitable. Consider approx 30-40 % over cost as about right.

Instead of charging an hourly rate, use the creative fee with usage method. If you charge say 120 per hour then they will want you to complete your work as quickly as possible. But if you quote 1300 for creative fee and then charge for usage for one year at xxx per image you come out ahead. Do not hand all images to the client on CD!!

Only allow them to purchase rights to the images they want for a certain period of time, maintain your copyright. If they insist on all images let them know that is going to hurt their pocket!!

I am sure that some of the other UK shooters will be able to assist in local differences but this should help get you started.

EDIT: Just to help you stick by your pricing guns, remember that these boats are owned by rich folks....

[Mint_Sauce]

That's excellent LBaldwin, thanks for taking the time to help. I'll try and work something out and come back to see what you all think.

[Road2Show]

Keep in mind also that when pricing a gig like this, the actual subject of the shoot is less of a concern (at least to me) than the usage of the images. You'll of course need to consider the subject when determining your hard costs, but don't sell yourself short on the uage license.

[Mint_Sauce]

Ok, I've thought about it and talked to my partner and we think here in the UK we are not sure if people would be too happy with buying the images only to have to then re-buy them after a year. I hear what you're saying but I think that would likely get my clients backs up.

I was thinking a more straight forward approach in that they pay me £500 for two days and that includes the first day shooting, fuel to the location (only that location so if they change location additional costs will be incurred etc). This would also include the next day of processing the images for their needs (levels, USM etc) and the inevitable tweaks and changes they will no doubt want.

I would maintain copyright but allow them use for their marketing (they are not a manufacturer, they source, buy and sell the boats). They would want me back to shoot other boats as they come in, probably small batches after the initial load. Therefore, £500 for what will essentially be two days work should cover all my costs and provide a fair profit.

What are your thoughts on that approach?

[strmrdr]

2 8 hour days I would charge between $1000 and $1600US so your ballpark in my opinion.
What I would do is say £600 or £650 and if they balk negotiate down.

Around here people are very very against usage fees and I encourage them too be so.

[LBaldwin]

Ok, I've thought about it and talked to my partner and we think here in the UK we are not sure if people would be too happy with buying the images only to have to then re-buy them after a year. I hear what you're saying but I think that would likely get my clients backs up.

I was thinking a more straight forward approach in that they pay me £500 for two days and that includes the first day shooting, fuel to the location (only that location so if they change location additional costs will be incurred etc). This would also include the next day of processing the images for their needs (levels, USM etc) and the inevitable tweaks and changes they will no doubt want.

I would maintain copyright but allow them use for their marketing (they are not a manufacturer, they source, buy and sell the boats). They would want me back to shoot other boats as they come in, probably small batches after the initial load. Therefore, £500 for what will essentially be two days work should cover all my costs and provide a fair profit.

What are your thoughts on that approach?

It depends on the usage needed. If this is for advertising usage, then maintaining the rights allows you to continue to create income from images that already exist.

The billing for usage is the norm, for adverts, commercial work and editiorial images. The reason you do this way is so the client gets timely images, exclusive to their needs. And you maintain the rights so that later you can sell these for stock, on a recurring basis after your clients are satisfied. Let's say for example you had a editorial shoot with Sir Paul McCartney. The magazine wants to use only 3 of the images you shoot for the spread. You fork over all rights to all 50 images shot that day for 300 sterling.

10 years later they re-run the images in a table top book featureing several hundred images of the former Beatle. Yours was the best portraits of him within a certain time frame, it makes the cover, dust jacket and 4-5 pages inside full bleed. You are on the streets looking for work, they make a mint on those books..... feel me?

If you are turing pro, talk to the top shooters in the UK about best business practices and use those standards - from day one. You will get more respect from clients if you use the proper business techniques, licenses, and contracts. Not to mention more money. This is a for profit business, right? So start correctly and get it done. No doubt your client knows how the images are supposed to be billed and they are no doubt counting on you to take the easy way out and let them off the cash hook!!

Don't start throwing in computer work or special incentives to get the work, trust me the won't respect you in the morning.

Just an FYI if you decide to do an all right buy out, I would not do it for less than 4000 USD. I did one for a magazine from Finland, 4 days in Cancun all expenses paid. Since this was film they wanted all images. I balked at the initial fee of 1200 per day. I wanted 5k per day, we settled on 4000 per day plus expenses. 12,000 USD for 4 days work. They used 31 images over 11 pages. They paid my assistant 300 per day bought all meals except breakfast and IT WAS IN CANCUN IN JANUARY. So stick buy your guns - 500 pounds, no way.

[Mint_Sauce]

If I shoot the images and then they use them, can I also then sell the images as stock with no repercussions? Is that firstly, an accepted practice (i.e. not morally wrong in some way?!) and secondly legal?

You have to understand these guys are not a big outfit and a local company, if I start saying they have to pay me again after a year if they wish to continue use then they will most likely think we are trying to get one over on them.

I could put in a 3 year usage right and then state they will need to contact us about how the images are still being used. If they are at that point being used for magazines and billboards etc then we negotiate another rate. Is that fair?

Also, this is my first real pro job and they know that. My going in there asking for big money would firsty make me feel uncomfortable with what I'm charging and not be a good start to an ongoing relationship. I would love to charge ££££ per day but it just isn't going to happen.

I will also be doing panoramics on the boats as part of the photography, similar to this one

Panoramic (http://www.limeleafmedia.com/panoramas/exeter_cathedral/cathedral2_as.html)

This adds a whole new dimension to the pricing as it takes me time to put these together to the quality we do... :S

EDIT: So far we have concluded that £500 a day, with a £20 sur charge for each panoramic. Then they have me for the day for the photography and I can also then go away and spend time processing the panoramics whilst not loosing out.

[strmrdr]

To release as stock you need a property release in the US not sure about where you are.
They likely don't have the right to give you one unless they manufacture the boats themselves.
The manufacture holds the rights too the design you need permission too use.
Also if they have a custom paint job you need permission from the painter also.
A friend of mine who paints custom motorcycles is going after anyone who uses images of his paint jobs commercially without permission and $$$. They are registered as works of art so he has gotten some pretty nice settlements too.
He is doing so because another painter stole his designs.

[LBaldwin]

I understand that you have some trepidation charging them a high wage. But I am not really talking about a high wage or rate. I am talking about HOW to bill. If you feel that 1000 pounds for the job is reasonable that is of course up to you.

If they are using them for ads and bill boards then that is two specificly different uses. You should be billing for each one seperatly. Now i understand that they think you are a noob, but that does not mean that you have to be foolsih. A billboard here in the states costs about 4-5 thousand per month for a nominal location, for a hot location it can be much more. Ads i magazines can rum 2-3 thousand per month and as much as 10k for a full page (USD) so knowing that they are looking at budgets in that neighborhood, now how do you feel about all rights for 1000? You end up being a the sucker (sorry).

Sorry I am not trying to be mean but try it this way

Creative fee 750 pounds
computer time 250 after final decision for color and resizing and any PP
1 year usage for each image all uses 750 for two years and then add options
If you walk away and leave cash on the table you can bet when more or bigger business comes along they will call someone else. It usually works the reverse of what you would think.