Liability opinions please

[Brian1cj]

I am a hobby photographer. I do not have a business and I really don’t want to start one. I have shot a handful of weddings for family and friends, all not-for-profit. I do not make any money with my equipment.

As time goes on and I get mislabeled as Brian the wedding photographer, I recently had pretty much a total stranger ask me to shoot her wedding and to name my price. I told her I would be interested, but she wants a contract and prices in writing (who wouldn’t?)

My concern is liability. This wedding is 3 hours away so I really don’t want to do it for free because of it taking two days, gas, food, hotel, etc, and I know if I make profit the legal way is to probably create an LLC or sole-proprietorship, get a tax ID, business checking account, liability insurance, finding a good CPA, etc.

There is so much baggage with this idea that I am thinking of respectfully declining the offer.

I am looking for some opinions on this issue. No one plans on getting sued, but it does happen. What if my car breaks down and I get sued for punitive/emotional damages?

I was never worried about this before because I was doing it as a favor and with trusted sources, all not-for-profit. I understand that making profit opens the door for legal recourse in the event that I get sued.

Does a contract help? I know it is all in the wording, but is a contract more iron-clad if I have it tied to a business? Does a contract even hold up in court or mean anything if I don’t have a business?

If I were to do this non-profit, can I still get sued just as if I was charging for it? I mean, I know in the good ol’ U.S. of A, we can sue anyone for any reason but it doesn’t mean we are going to win.

I guess I am just trying to find out if doing it for profit increases my odds of a verdict in their favor in the rare event that I get sued.

Please offer your thoughts.

Brian

[JS4KIKZ]

Although I'm no expert on this, I'd like to hear some good advice on this too. If it were me, I'd have a contract, whether or not you were getting paid, just to protect yourself. If this work requires as much as you are describing (driving, hotel, etc.) then I would at least charge for the expenses that you have to fish out. Just my opinion.

Lenny

[coralnutz]

I'm not any kind of pro or anything, but I don't think I would shoot a wedding for free, even for friends without something signed to cover my rear.

Good luck with whatever you decide..

[Brian1cj]

I should have mentioned that when shooting for friends/family, I've never been the sole photographer... just working in with pro in the the prime photo real estate. So I was never in a position of liability since it was his butt, not mine, if something wasn't right.

I know contracts are a must and they are only as good as what is said within, but I am just trying to get opinions on if this is even worth doing. I'm confident in shooting it and it would be very fun, but I don't want all the baggage that might come along with it. And I sure don't want to get sued because there are just so many (but unlikely) situations that could happen... flash triggers a seizure/death, CF card fails, car breaks down on the way there, camera gear gets stolen, spare battery catches something on fire, etc.

If any of you were in my shoes, what would you do? Anyone that shoots weddings/events full time or part time, please advise.

Brian

[LBaldwin]

Hi Brian, It is really quite simple, if you do not want to start a business then don't. Decline the work, send it to a local pro whose work you admire and leave it at that. I do have some news for you, you can still be sued even if you shoot and do not charge.

So each time you shoot regardless of your status as a working pro or not you can still be taken to court. My suggestion is either fish or cut bait :-)

BTW contracts only protect you up until you are served papers, after that many small claims courts can alter them, ignore them or honor them at their discretion, and yes this is from first hand expereince..

[Brian1cj]

Reading my own post again, I think I am answering my own question. And you are right Les. I'd be making chump change on this compared to my day job... chump change that I don't really need and furthermore, the liability that comes along with it. I'd hate for my love for photography to get ruined by something like that. Either go for it all the way or pull out I guess.

[LBaldwin]

That is not to say don't take pictures if you want to as a gift. But check with the pro in advance and set it up so that you don't step on their toes ( I think you already know this and I appreciate it very much).

You could as an option act as an unpaid 2nd shooter some photographers would love to have the help. Or perhaps you could kick in some funds to help pay the pro.

I think one of the boons to being ANY kind of photographer is that we get to attend lots of family functions, but rarely get to fully enjoy the moment as the gift it is.

[John Mireles]

My concern is liability. This wedding is 3 hours away so I really don’t want to do it for free because of it taking two days, gas, food, hotel, etc, and I know if I make profit the legal way is to probably create an LLC or sole-proprietorship, get a tax ID, business checking account, liability insurance, finding a good CPA, etc. There's a good reason that established photographers charge several thousand or more for wedding photography. It's because of all the time and costs involved with shooting a wedding. It's a lot of work. And, yes, there is liability involved as well.

Your homeowner's insurance will not cover you for should you get sued. If you should injure someone - they trip over your tripod or camera bag - you'd better have commercial insurance coverage to protect you otherwise things can get expensive in a hurry.

A good contract is essential for clarifying what is expected from both parties. Most of the disputes I see arise when either party to the contract has a different opinion of what they expected to receive or deliver. It's amazing how quickly clients will forget that they never ordered an album when they booked me. They'll swear up and down that they paid for it - but I just show them the contract that they signed. Case closed.

If this is something you don't really want to do, why bother? It could be an interesting experience, but it doesn't come without baggage. If you don't want to take the risk, don't.

John

[Brian1cj]

I have decided to play the part of "guest with a better camera", that way the liability is not in my hands, as I am no longer expected to deliver anything. I told them I would do some engagement photos... free, no contracts, just a casual friendly day in the park, with the understanding that it is a casual favor at this point and to expect nothing.

For me it really is not about the money because I really enjoy my day job and intend to keep going down that road... photography is just an expensive hobby and I am glad to help for free whenver I can.

Thanks Les and John for steering me clear of danger and backing up my initial thoughts about liability and risks.

Les, interesting comment about working in with the pros. I have been a "guest 2nd shooter" at many weddings and I purposely try to hide myself not only from the bride/groom but the photographer as well. I noticed this once when the pro kept eyeballing what I was doing and where I was at instead of focusing (no pun intended) on their job. I also believe that if one were to work in with the photographer, it can make the bride/groom a bit confused and nervous as well as the pro, because it can make the pro feel like he is not in the spotlight. I usually play the role of "camera ninja" as to not be seen much by anyone so everyone can just do their thing. I know that if I were a pro, having someone bouncing all around me taking pictures and stealing the scene would make me pretty angry. My policy is to fully intorduce myself with some camera small talk and to ask the photographer what he/she prefers that I do or not do. Kinda breaks the ice a bit and lets me be more approachable.

I could see myself getting all the necessary baggage to start doing this part time for profit, but not until I am ready which is probably a few years from now and few more thousand dollars into it.

[LBaldwin]

Hey Brian,
Most working stiffs do not want other shooters at their work site. This is particularly critical at weddings. many shooters still base their income on the number and size of prints sold to the client. So if you are there you create a natural potential for loss of sales to the contracted photographer. Some photographers are OK with it some have exclusivity clauses in their contracts some like the CD shooters don't care.

I use an enforecable exclusivity contract that states clearly that no other photography is allowed, that includes Uncles, family friends etc. When I shoot the formals I ask my assistant to enter any images being shot by those with DSLR to maximize my income.
Please understant that i only do this after discussions with the party that showed up with gear and refuses to stay out of my way. I am the contracted photographer for the event and will not allow anyone to alter that contract and cause a breach.

Furthermore I insist from the initial contact with the client that any other photographers be cleared through me first. I will give advance permission to friends and family members that want to shoot candids of the event. The formals are mine and mine alone - per the contract. i could go on and on about what happens when you don't control your work space, but we do not have the room here. Suffice it to say that if you do not establish and maintain control for the entire shoot the chances of missed shots, poor quality and breach of contract are very much increased. This opinion is after several years of work across all ethnic, social and financial status. I am not concerned about P&S users so much as those that show up with gear that can jeoparadize my reason for attending. I have been followed around, I have had "photographers Uncles" step right in my way as the couple were coming up the isle, I have had noob insist that I use their cameras to shoot images with them in them so that "It looks better".

Weddings can be very unforgiving, and harsh environments to shoot in. I do not do that many anymore preferring other markets, but still enjoy the creativity and rush involved in the creation of someones memory of an important event.

Cheers,