Going digital: lenses suited for both, digital & analog

[emax]

Hi all!

I've been a photograph enthusiast since more than 30 years now. My first Camera was a Canon A1 which maybe was the best camera i ever had (even by now).

But when canon changed the lens mount from FD to EF i was so angry, that i sold all my canon equipment and changed to Nikon.

But i never was really happy with the Nikons: i'am still in love with Canon.

I had a F90X, a F4 and finally a F5 which i'm currently dropping at ebay, including all my lenses and other Nikon Equipment: i'll switch back to Canon and completely focus on digital photography in future.

Its a very expensive untertaking to change the entire system, but as going digital is presumably the last really elementary metamorphosis in photography for the next few centuries, this may be justifiable.

So what's the point here?

My wife already has a EOS-5, and i will buy an EOS 20D. I will, of course, need e few lenses for my new canon. And i'm considering the question whether or not it makes sense, to buy new lenses for the EOS 20D with respect to the EOS-5 usability.

I already know, that EF-S lenses don't make sense for analogue cameras. And i dont like theses lenses, because they appear to be just sleazy to me.

As i'm a zoom-proponent, i have in mind to purchase sth. like 16-35, 35-70 and a 70-xxx zoom (in the long run). The first and most important lens for me is a wideangle-lens, since this is the scope i like most.

Here are my questions:

- are the new canon-lenses specifically designed for the new digital cameras?
- or doesn't it make a difference to use them with either camera?
- is there any recommendation if you want to buy new zoom-lenses suitable for both, the EOS 20D and the EOS-5?

Your suggestions are very much appreciated.

emax.

[Cal Maier]

- are the new canon-lenses specifically designed for the new digital cameras?
- or doesn't it make a difference to use them with either camera?
- is there any recommendation if you want to buy new zoom-lenses suitable for both, the EOS 20D and the EOS-5?


Welcome! to another N*K*N to Canon Convert! Funny, you switched from Canon to N*k*n at about the time that I switched from N*k*n to Canon.

To answer your questions......

The new EF-S Lenses are designed to fit only the 20D or the D-Rebel bodies, at the moment. They will damage the mirror mechanism if mounted on any other Canon EOS Body. I'm sure that there will be other EF-S compatible bodies in the future so I wouldn't worry about buying one of these lenses in order to regain a wide angle crop for the APS size sensor.

If you love zooms then you should look at the EF 16-35mm/2.8L, the EF 24-70mm/2.8L, and the EF 70-200mm/2.8L IS. These are currently the best zoom lenses made that will work on all Canon EOS bodies that have been released since 1987 or so. If you are on a more limited budget and you don't feel the need for 2.8 glass, then you could substitute the EF 17-40/4.0L and the EF 70-200/4.0L lenses. These lenses are as sharp as the faster versions, but at a stop slower they are an excellent choice for the budget minded.

I use both the EOS 1 series film bodies and a 20D at the moment and my lens selection consists only of EF series lenses but I will consider purchasing the new EF-S 10-22mm when it becomes available and dedicate that one to my 20D only, as I have 16mm covered on my F/F.

From what I've seen the newer EF-S 17-85 IS USM and the EF-S 10-22 USM lenses appear to have a build quality equal to the EF 28-135 IS USM and the EF 20-35mm USM lenses.

Anyway, If you started with the zooms that I've listed above you won't be unhappy, although your pocket book is going to be a bit lighter.

Good Luck,

Cal CPS432

[CyberDyneSystems]

Hi Emax,

And welcome BACK to Canon :)

Seems like you allready have it right.. and we will just confirm for you :wink:

EF-S = 20D and 300D only.

All other Canon lenses work equally well on "full frame" or 35mm film as they do on the Digital bodies. (at the cost of carrying more weight than otherwise required on a 1.6X sensor camera)

A man of taste such as yourself will want to go straight fro the "L" lenses.

The lenses Cal mmentions are "the best" L zooms specificaly because of there f/2.8 constant aperture.

However.. equal quality can be had for a lot less $ with the sacrifice of only that f/2.8 in the form of the 17-40mm f/4L and 70-200mm f/4L. These two lenses are Canon's most affordable "L" zooms and a terrific bargain.

Welcome back

CDS

[emax]

@cal
The new EF-S Lenses are designed to fit only the 20D or the D-Rebel bodies, at the moment.
Ok, as i supposed.

They will damage the mirror mechanism if mounted on any other Canon EOS Body.
But this is something new to me! I wonder that canon didnt software-prevent the camera from shooting when such a lens is mounted... Thanks for the hint.

I'm sure that there will be other EF-S compatible bodies in the future so I wouldn't worry about buying one of these lenses in order to regain a wide angle crop for the APS size sensor.
This is a very interesting statement. I've been thinking very much about this issue. Will they go towards APS-Factor in future? The general experience is no doubt, that electronics in general evolves towards more performance at lower costs. Look at TFT-Monitors: the same story.

And as canon claims (as Nikon does) to be the leader in digital camera-technology, i can image that they will force full-size ccd-s in new camera-models. It's too expensive to have two lens families, one that faciliates a 1.6 facter-chip, and one for the full-size technology. Even if full size chips are too expensive today, they may be bulk good in future, even for companies like Sigma et.al. This is what we can watch all over the place in electronics. Whilst ONE transistor cost 30$ in the sixties, a pentium or AMD - CPU has more than a hundred million of them today .....


If you love zooms then you should look at the EF 16-35mm/2.8L, the EF 24-70mm/2.8L, and the EF 70-200mm/2.8L IS. These are currently the best zoom lenses made that will work on all Canon EOS bodies that have been released since 1987 or so.

I think so. And i already had a look at them.

@CyberDyneSystems
Hey, wasn't cyberdyne a company in a movie? AFAIK it was terminator 2: excellent Movie!

... will want to go straight fro the "L" lenses.

Yes, i'm focussing on this series. My current (outbound) Nikon lenses are the 20-35 2.8, 35-70 2.8 and 70-200 2.8 models. They are really top-class lenses.

In the past i made the experience, that it makes absolutely no sense to buy an excellent camera and save money when buying lenses. I'm indeed willing to pay for really _good_ lenses, e.g. Canon L-lenses if they are worth the price and do what they claim to be able.

But since i'm not a millionaire, i'll only be able buy such a lens lets say once a year. In maybe three years i'll have all the equipment i need. Expensive, yes, but without compromises. Lens-buying is like buying HiFi speakers: NEVER use sleazy speakers together with high-end amps. Its a waste.

A word concerning aperture:

I don't really _need_ a 2.8 aperture, its just nice to have, and by now i'm used to the famous Nikon 20-35 2,8 on my F5. I like available-light photographs very much, and with that lens i could take free-hand pictures up to half a second: A high aperture together with a heavy-weighted camera and a wide-angled lens makes this possible.

And i _like_ big apertures, they give you sufficient reserves in case you need them. And moreover: a BIG frontlens is something "sexy" to me. May sound crazy, but for me photography and cameras is more than just taking pictures. I also has something to do with "haptics" (of equipment).

Yes, i'm a techie :D

On the other hand digital cameras have much more opportunities to cope with avalable light: i'm not bound to a per film - ISO-setting since in the digital world one can change iso-settings in a second from picture to picture. And therefore there is no need for such high aperures compared to the analogue world. And additionally i have a small but neat flash light built in a EOS 20D, which should be sufficient for most situations (as a fill-in light).

Aparently there are no high-end ultra-wide angle zoom-lenses with such apertures available which are suitable for both, the EOD 20D and the EOS-5.

Maybe my first buy should be sth. like 35-xxx mm (equivalent), and wait until canon introduces sth. like an EF f20-35 mm 2.8 L-USM (equivalent) which is suitable for both cams? Or won't this ever happen?


... 17-40mm f/4L and 70-200mm f/4L. These two lenses are Canon's most affordable "L" zooms and a terrific bargain.

I will consider this solution. Notably regarding the fact, that my favourite solution (20-xx mm equiv. at 2.8 for both cams) is not in sight.

So far the only sure thing is, that i will buy L-lenses....

A final word to the comments i got:


Welcome! to another N*K*N to Canon Convert! Funny, you switched from Canon to N*k*n at about the time that I switched from N*k*n to Canon.

And welcome BACK to Canon
Somehow its a bit like being "back home". Thank you!

My A1 was really the best camera i ever had. It was light, it was intelligent, it had a one-finger-interface (yes, you could handle almost all and everything with _one_ finger!!) and it was a comparable small camera. This camera went along with me on my Motorbike trips in Europe. I carried it in my fuel-tank-rucksack (which is not a very comfortable place for a camera...), and i never gave it a break: it flawlessly worked all the time!

Later on i donated a EOS-5 to my wife as a chrismas-gift. Again i was enraptured by Canon technology: the "Eye Controlled Focus" worked perfect for me (and my wife :D )

And whicherver Canon-camera i had and tried (and i owned a lot of them: the A1, AE1, AV1, F1 old, and the EOS-5): i always _at_once_ conceived the interface, it never took me more than _one_minute_ to grasp almost everthing the camera offered to the user.

The Nikons however didn't completely open up to me even after more than 10 years. Oh, of course i _understood_ how to use them, and of course i got all the features these cameras have (i had a F90X, an F4 and an F5). But i never felt really comfortable with them, and very often jealously stared at Canon owners.

Thus thanks a lot for your welcome! It's really a good feeling to be "back home" ;-))

And i'm so very excited against receiving my EOS 20D in a few weeks!

emax.

[chris maddock]

They will damage the mirror mechanism if mounted on any other Canon EOS Body.
But this is something new to me! I wonder that canon didnt software-prevent the camera from shooting when such a lens is mounted... Thanks for the hint.

That's the point of the EF-S mount - an EF-S lens cannot physically be fitted to an EF mount body, just like your old FD lenses couldn't be fitted to an EOS body. Much better than software.

KRs
Chris

[emax]

So how can they damage a mirror, if they cant be mounted?

[chris maddock]

So how can they damage a mirror, if they cant be mounted?

They would do, if they could be mounted - hence the change of mount to prevent it.
BTW, it is only a modification of the EF mount, standard EF lenses can be fitted to an EF-S mount camera with no problems - forgot to say that before.

KRs
Chris

[Cal Maier]

This is a very interesting statement. I've been thinking very much about this issue. Will they go towards APS-Factor in future?

It looks as if Canon will have at at least 2 DSLR bodies that will accomodate the APS type lenses.

And as canon claims (as Nikon does) to be the leader in digital camera-technology, i can image that they will force full-size ccd-s in new camera-models.
I would have to disagree here. Nikon is at least two years behind Canon as far as Digital technology goes. Nikon is not even close to bring a F/F sensor to the market and have embraced the cropped sensor in all of their DSLR bodies. Even the recently announced D2X will be a 1.5 crop, although they have realized, like Kodak, that the higher resolution cameras perform much better using CMOS type sensors rather than CCD.
The only F/F camera that Nikon has annouced recently has been the F6 film body? I'm not sure of the marketing logic here! as I've talked to a lot of Nikon shooters who are wondering why they would need to replace their F5 bodies.


It's too expensive to have two lens families, one that faciliates a 1.6 facter-chip, and one for the full-size technology

Both Nikon and Canon already have this with the EF-S and the Nikon DX lenses. If it was too expensive, then why would Canon bring out 3 new EF-S models this year, and Nikon introduced 3 or 4 new DX lenses in the past year? We may even see "L" glass in the next series of EF-S lenses.
There will be some users who will never need a F/F sensor and will be quite satisfied with the APS sensor, let's face it, most of the Nikon shooters out there right now have made the choice to stick with the APS Nikon sensor and many that I've talked to seem to question the logic of the F/F system if they can do everthing they need with the APS Body.

We use the EOS-1DS in our studio right now and we will be shooting the DS-MKII in Nov., but for my personal Digital body the 20D works great, it gives me the resolution and performance that I need in a light-weight package and for F/F I've still got my 1 series film body when needed.

Anyhow, as I said before Welcome back to Canon and if you're not in a rush to buy your lenses keep an eye open for used, I've never shyed away from used if the condition was good and you can usually save quite a bit over buying new.

Cal M CPS432

[Andy_T]

So how can they damage a mirror, if they cant be mounted?

The only way to mount the EF-S lenses on an EF mount is by physically removing the rim that prevents their mounting on an EF mount with a hacksaw.

There are some 'how-to' guides on the net ... and one day somebody very smart *will* do this and mount the 'hacked' lens on a full frame camera :roll:

Best regards,
Andy

[emax]

@Cal

i completely agree with what you say concerning Nikons status quo. And its true, that Canon already HAS APS-sized digital cameras.

But how can a marketleader provide two different lens-families for the same overall-purpose: digital SLR cameras? Will they divide photographers into amateurs -which buy medium-priced EF-S lenses- and professionals that buy expensive high-end F/F-lenses?

This, in a way, would be a late introduction of the APS-camera-format for amateurs, lets say through the backdoor.

Does it really make sense to develop high-quality F/F lenses which are not worth the ($-)effort for APS-sized cameras? This is a bit like burning money for me.

On the other hand the APS-format is a tempatation for Canon due to the fact that bodies, lenses, filters etc. are less expensive to produce.

AND, (this is exactly my problem) people have to buy new lenses for wide-angle solutions. So far APS possibly makes sense from a marketing point of view. But IMHO not from a technical point of view: Canons F/F chips WILL be affordable in future. Thats the trend all electronic devices will undergo. So why not provide F/F cameras in future? Technically this had only advantages (if you think about MegaPixels and noise).

But anyway there is actually no need for Canon to do so: Nikon is far behind, and no other company is in sight, that could make canons life a misery. And additionally people like me will have to buy NEW wide-angle solutions. Good for Canon. Annoying for me.

Im quite curious about what will be in lets say 5 years or so...

Maybe we will remember this thread...

[samdring]

Have Canon brought out (or will they have to) 1.4 and 2.0 converters for EF-S?

[Mogwyth]

In a recent inteview a Canon executive has stated that for the forseeable future their DSLR lineup will consist of 1.6, 1.3 and ff sensors. It's also been stated that there will be more EF-S lenses but that it only makes sense to produce the shorter focal length lens (below 100mm ???), there could well be some L glass in the lineup, but they have no intention of producing a full range.


The inteview
http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/digital/canonplans.html

[Cal Maier]

Have Canon brought out (or will they have to) 1.4 and 2.0 converters for EF-S?

There is really no need for a T.C. for focal lengths shorter than 100mm, as you can just add a telephoto lens instead. If you wanted to mount an EF-S lens on a T.C. you could try one of the Tamron brand made with a Canon mount. They will mount on pretty much any lens that Canon makes, unlike the Canon T.C.'s that will only mount on certain Tele- zooms and telephotos.



And additionally people like me will have to buy NEW wide-angle solutions. Good for Canon. Annoying for me.

emax,

You really only need one wide angle lens so the logical choice for a 20D or D-Rebel owner would be to look at the EF-S 10-22mm that is just being released. If you only need wide down to 24mm(cropped length) or so then you could pick up a wide angle zoom like the Sigma 15-30mm EX. This lens will fit both EF-S and F/F bodies and is rated quite good by the people that have bought or tried it. Actually, I picked one up not too long ago and I'm quite impressed with the image quality, the achilles heel is a slower focus and controls like a Nikon lens. I did some extensive comparisons with the Canon 17-40mmL zoom and found the Sigma to be as sharp through the comparable focal lengths. Now, if the new EF-S 10-22 mm performs well, I may just have to pick one up although I've been satisfied with the 23mm or so crop that ;the Sigma is giving me now.

Yes, It would be fun to travel 5 or so years into the future to see what Canon and Nikon will be building, but the drawback with that is that none of us would want to buy a Digital SLR right away, everyone would want to wait, I'm sure.

Goodluck with your lens quest, and have fun with your new camera, but that goes without saying doesn't it.

Cal M CPS432

[Andy_T]

Im quite curious about what will be in lets say 5 years or so...

Maybe we will remember this thread...

I don't think it will be much different from 2 years ago, when this question was asked for the first time :wink:

Of course, it was not about EF-S lenses, then.

Best regards,
Andy