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Sam North
17th of October 2004 (Sun), 06:11
I've edited this post again this time including the finsihed article lifted dirtectly from my site. See the actual web pages for related images.

I've been interested in the responses from here and elsewhere, and I've learned again that on the Web it's all too easy to pass on and listen to misinformation! In balance, after considerable research and after taking advice, I've concluded that in practice scanned slide film and DSLRs respond to light in much the same way.

Negative film does much better across the range, but the appearance of grain in the final scan is off-putting for some. However, fine grain in film like Fuji Reala can be further reduced by a little overexposure (see end of essay) and is of little consequence at typical viewing distances. Fine art shots are not really possible with 35mm film, so grain should not be a major reason for not shooting film.

Thanks for reading it.

Sam



From SLRs to DSLRs
Adjusting to Digital Technology


For the keen amateur photographer, DSLR photography is very convenient. No longer do we have to be as frugal as we were with film – we can take literally hundreds of shots† over a few hours at a variety of ISO settings and, within a short period of time, view every image in detail on a computer screen. Better still, DSLR photography allows us to assess each shot in the field by consulting the histogram and thumbnail image on the LCD. This means there are few excuses for wasted shots!

However, there are also several bothersome disadvantages associated with small format DSLRs. Their cost, including storage cards, compared to similarly specified 35mm cameras is off-putting to say the least, and for many cash-strapped amateurs full sensor DSLRs are out of the question for years to come. Battery-charging and image cropping are other concerns. Image cropping happens because the image sensor is smaller than a frame of 35mm film, the size conventional lenses are designed for. This alters the focal length of most lenses that project an image too large for the sensor.

Although small sensor DSLR photographers can enjoy the benefits of longer focal lengths because of image cropping, they must also face up to the problems associated with the increased focal length of wide-angle lenses. With Nikon and Canon DSLRs a 28mm lens will typically become something like 45mm. So, most who buy a small sensor DSLR will almost certainly have to buy another lens or two to compensate for this wide-angle deficiency. So, what’s the actual cost of a DSLR if you already own a wide-angle lens? (Many are less than impressed with the quality of so-called digital lenses packaged with DSLRs.)

The major players out there are busy producing exceptionally wide “digital” zooms to cash in on this lucrative market, although aberrations remain an ongoing problem for many. For example, the expensive small format Nikon AF-S 12-24mm f4 produces noticeable colour fringing in areas of high contrast. None too impressive at £900. DSLR red/blue fringing, caused by the angle at which light strikes the sensor, will show up in the corners and edges of your images.

There are a couple of other problems worth mentioning. No matter how careful you are, tiny specks of dust will accumulate on the surface of the sensor and will eventually need to be removed. And finally, your DSLR shots will soon tell you that sensors inherently struggle to record highlight detail. This last difficulty needs to be examined in more detail...

Losing Detail in the Highlights

You may come across knowledgeable photographers who write about “the shoulder portion of the D/log E curve” and how film “tends to roll off smoothly in the shadows and highlights.” They use terms like these to describe the efficient way film – especially negative film – responds to light. Unlike film, however, the sensors in DSLRs do not have the capacity to gradually and smoothly cope with highlight information. In the real world this means that the brightest areas of the scene can all too easily retain no information at all – no image data is present, just pure white. The sensor abruptly blows it.

This means that DSLR photographers, especially those who shoot landscapes, for example, will need to do all they can to accommodate the highlights, referring constantly to the histogram. Digital techniques and/or a grey graduated filter are often essential to balance the brightness of the sky with the land below. If you are new to DSLR photography, try experimenting with the RAW format so that you can exercise more control over highlight detail. When the image is converted, you can fine-tune the image by using levels and curves (the latter especially useful and powerful) in image-editing software.

Generally speaking, the DSLR photographer should take care not to blow the brightest parts of the image, although smaller blown highlights do not take away from the overall appearance of the shot, and are sometimes unavoidable. Contrast Masking* and Digital Blending techniques can be used when there are highlight areas within the scene that need to be balanced with shadow detail to extend the tonal range. Digital blending – a very flexible method – can be used with two or more images. The conscientious digital photographer will need to learn how to use good image-editing software. (Highlights are less of a concern when using negative film [see Scanning for 35mm Film]. Try to hold detail in the shadows and if necessary use a graduated filter. Always meter off a mid-tone, and bear in mind that it can be useful to overexpose negative film slightly.)

“Meter a medium-toned area as medium and the whites will be white, and the blacks, black” is not particularly good advice for the DSLR photographer learning to cope with the demands of electronic sensors. Also, as often as possible it’s helpful to push the exposure to the point where the histogram shows more information to the right of the display, without the severe abrupt peaks that indicate blown highlights.

Digital Technology and Film

When you press the shutter button on a DSLR, the shutter opens allowing light passing through the lens to strike the photosensor which is positioned in the lens’s focal plane, right where film would be in a conventional SLR. The information gathered by the sensor is passed as a stream of electrical signals that are converted into digital data before being processed by an electronic imaging ‘engine’.

The elements of an image recorded by Digital Single-lens-reflex cameras (reflex here refers to the light that is reflected by a mirror and pentaprism) are known as pixels, and the tiny elements of film are called grain or clouds of dye, depending on the film type. As film ratings and DSLR ISO settings are changed to cope with reduced light, for example, ISO 800, a digital image produces what is known as noise and film produces more grain.

While many prefer DSLR noise to film grain, others like the look of grain produced by faster films. Of course, it's possible to create a grainy look in software. It’s worth remembering at this point that slow slide film like Fuji Velvia (ISO 100) and high quality ISO 100 negative film, like Reala, produce very little grain. A digital image recorded at a low ISO rating will have no noise and on-screen especially will appear much cleaner than a film image.

If you are new to digital technology but still have a capable SLR, you may be debating whether you should sell it on or continue to use it alongside a digital camera. If you’ve been a keen photographer for years you’re sure to have a collection of film strips and slides. The best of these can be scanned and then enhanced on a computer using software like Paint Shop Pro, Corel PHOTO-PAINT, Photoshop and Adobe Elements.

Currently, 35mm film can be scanned in great detail to produce images larger than those produced by consumer DSLRs like the Canon 20D. Interpolation will be necessary to enlarge a small sensor DSLR image to the size of a quality consumer film scan (see link below for more information on interpolation). However, DSLR images enlarge surprisingly well while a larger film scan for a bigger print means larger grain! But bear in mind that the distance from which a large 35mm film print will be viewed will make grain of little or no consequence. Not only that, scanning software and image-editing techniques also have a major role to play, enabling the photographer to minimise the effects of grain in the final print.

Apart from the unavoidable, though not insurmountable, difficulties associated with scanning dusty slides and strips of negatives, a very persuasive reason for the modern amateur photographer phasing out film might be the cost of converting individual frames to digital. Having film scanned is expensive, and probably not an option at all if you’re heavily into street photography, or a documentary style of imagery. However, all is not lost.

If you like how fine-grained film looks and want to continue shooting it (and many do) you may want to consider investing in a quality film scanner. Unfortunately, it may cost about as much as a lower-end consumer DSLR. Alternatively, you could have each entire roll of film professionally developed and scanned to an economy package CD, or opt for economy 6x4 prints or a contact sheet; then you could take your time choosing the “keepers” (consider the points raised in Lose the Dead Shots!). The resulting small collection of best slides or negatives could then be returned and scanned to a much larger size for you to work with, before sending them off again to be digitally printed. Another option is to print the larger images out at home.

All of this seems like a serious amount of hassle compared to simply shooting with a DSLR and downloading images from the card. But if your style of photography means you don’t really shoot a lot of film, it may not turn out to be that expensive in the long run. Large prints from scanned film can be very impressive.


† Your DSLR will allow you to shoot smaller image sizes, but it's rarely a good idea. Invest in larger storage cards, shoot the largest size possible and resize in software if necessary. That way your images will suit every purpose.

* In software, a desaturated and inverted (negative) black and white copy of an image can be blended with the original to expand the tonal range. The increased density of the b&w inverted copy will be added to the original. To learn more about this method and other techniques that control the contrast range, search the Web for Digital Blending and Contrast Masking (originally a conventional darkroom technique). Mastering image-editing software is essential for the dedicated enthusiast who wants to get the very best from his or her DSLR, or scanned film.

__________________________________________________ ________________________



The Negative Advantage

Some people compare DSLR technology to 35mm film and in so doing seem to imply that film is just too long in the tooth. But in truth, film is different and has its ongoing advantages too.

It is often said that colour negative film is very forgiving of exposure errors. When underexposed, it's usually possible to rescue the image. But even when negative film is exposed properly, it hasn’t fully realised its potential.

Highlight, grain and sharpness
The highlight detail in colour negative film develops much more than the detail in the shadows. This means negative film can easily withstand a stop or two of overexposure. Overexposed negative film will easily retain more highlight detail than slide film or DSLRs, and the detail in the shadows will be increased, too.

The layers and chemicals in overexposed negative film will work together to actually reduce grain and enhance sharpness. But it’s important to remember that pushing the film too far will cause these gains to break down. So just a stop or two is ideal.

Reducing colour casts
Colour casts are significantly reduced when negative film is overexposed. When exposed normally to daylight, each layer gets sufficient exposure, but if the prevailing light source is unbalanced, an unpleasant cast will result because one or more of the layers gets too little exposure.

Overexposure will boost the starved layer without harming the others. So the orange glow so typical of indoor light and the greenish cast from fluorescent light will be less noticeable. Again, too much exposure will undermine the benefits.

Why Scan Colour Negative Film?
Gone are the days when 35mm negative film was known simply as "print film", preferred by amateurs for their economy prints and unpopular with pros. Even though viewing slides is less than convenient, for decades many advanced amateurs have preferred them partly because the alternative, negative film, has to be printed and is therefore a second-generation image. Today, with the introduction of good quality consumer film† scanners, the balance has shifted significantly. Both slide and negative film originals can be scanned in great detail and the resulting images digitally printed. This process has effectively narrowed the traditional gap between colour negative film and slide film. This is good news for amateurs who don't want to project slides and those who would rather shoot colour negative film.

The industry-standard reproduction process scans slide film with an image sensor, the light passing through to record as much detail and tonal quality as possible, although the loss of shadow detail in the original and on the printed page is not to everyone's taste. Unfortunately, colour negative film is not suitable for this expensive, professional process, which is one reason why slide film has been the preferred choice of book publishers. However, good consumer film scanners allow the modern amateur to work at home on original images. Scanning and image-editing software programs can be used together to impressively control the tonal range, contrast, colour saturation and grain. In fact, it's now possible to minimise the effects of grain so that it's not an issue in the final print at typical viewing distances.

Shooting fine-grained colour negative film allows you to hold excellent shadow detail while largely avoiding the pitfall of the lost highlights that can be a regular problem with slide film and DSLRs. As a consequence, exposing colour negative film properly is less difficult and the sharp and tonally rich negatives give you more information to work with in the digital darkroom where tonal and colour information in 20+ megapixel images can be manipulated creatively to produce quality, saturated digital prints. As with all digital images, it's also possible to produce impressive black and white prints from colour originals (see page Beyond the Channel Mixer). The only real problem with shooting colour negative film is getting quality scans that make good use of colour and tonal information across the range — not everyone is prepared to invest in a decent 35mm scanner that captures very good highlight and shadow detail (dynamic range), and some labs may not produce the results you need.


Slide Film or Colour Negative Film, or DSLRs?

Particularly in the context of scanning for prints, what’s the real difference between 35mm slide film and colour negative film? And, to logically expand the discussion a little further, are there any tangible advantages to shooting with a DSLR rather than either of the film types? We can easily reach a conclusion at the very beginning! Despite the fact that the fruitless Slide Vs Neg Vs Digital Sensor debate occasionally raises its head in photo forums, there is in truth no definitive answer that will satisfy everybody. For the discerning small format amateur — and the SLR amateur photographer is the overall context of this site — it’s often a matter of personal choice, with advantages and disadvantages built into all three options.

Clearly DSLR photography is very convenient and flexible with more shooting options geared to particular styles. Photojournalism, general action photography, aspects of wildlife photography and even the more casual pursuit of that special image will all benefit from digital technology. Although consumer DSLRs are more expensive than comparable film SLRs, there are no film and processing costs to take into consideration, and for many photographers, amateur and professional, this is a significant advantage. And digital is immediate, with no long delay beween shooting and viewing. However, a 35mm amateur photographer with a very different style of photography — landscape, or still-life, for example — may not see these benefits as particularly appealing. A lot depends on the individual's approach and output, and for many today, 35mm film is still an attractive and viable option, especially if the film can be scanned at home and manipulated in image-editing software.

Various terms are used to describe the inherent properties of film. The curious amateur photographer will read about exposure latitude, dynamic range, tonal range and even scenic range. To simplify this diversity you only need to understand that slide film and negative film respond differently to the tonal values in the scene you intend to record. Or, to put it another way, the range of illumination in the scene, all the way from the darkest shadows to the brightest highlights, will be handled differently depending on the choice of film. A film’s ability to capture shadow and highlight detail is known as its dynamic range. Confusingly, slide film has less tonal range than colour negative film but more dynamic range.

Colour negative film’s propensity to hold very good tonal values accounts for its much wider exposure latitude. Colour negative film has lower contrast properties than slide film and will cope quite well with highlight and shadow detail, perhaps up to five stops of light: three overexposed and two underexposed. In real world amateur photography this means that properly exposed fine-grained colour negative film will capture very good shadow detail while also retaining subtle tonal gradations in the brighter areas of the scene – clouds, for example, or sunlit Caucasian skin tones. So, because negative film copes so well with highlights, before you take your shots you should try to make sure you’ve captured as much relevant detail in the shadows as possible. Colour negative film, with its broad gradations of tone, is ideal for scanning because there’s a lot of useful information across the range to work with.

However, when compared to slide film, colour negative film’s wide exposure latitude usually means the recorded image has less contrast and saturation – it clearly has less bite! More than that, the orange mask built into negative film can present unique problems, with consumer scanners offsetting its effects with varying degrees of success. As a result, getting the best colour balance may occasionally take a little effort. In the final analysis, however, scanning techniques and image-editing software can inject punch and zest into colour negative images and this in turn means more vibrant, appealing prints. In other words, you can give them more bite!

Positive (slide) film has more lively contrast and vivid colour than negative film. It also exhibits smoother tonal blends and remarkably fine grain. It’s unfortunate then that it struggles to hold detail in the highlights, and very dark shadows can be rendered almost black. Before exposing slide film it’s best to make sure preference is given to the brighter parts of the scene. It's possible to compensate for the wide contrast range in a landscape scene by using graduated filters. The slide photographer can also use common image-editing techniques that impressively expand the exposure latitude of any scene by combining two or more scanned images.

Digital sensors share slide film’s highlight problems but will get more from the shadows. Shadow retention will be particularly good if the exposure, when appropriate, is routinely pushed just short of blown and unprocessed and uncompressed data is captured rather than JPEG. If this isn’t possible and the subject being photographed allows for it, two or more images can be used to substantially expand the range, as mentioned above. Sensor pixels, or light receptors, wrestle with bright light because their response to it is not gradual. Instead they peak quite quickly, totally losing highlight data. Digital camera manufacturers are working on this problem but the application of their technological advances has been less than ideal. It’s certainly an irritating problem that makes some digital exposures quite tricky, like shooting slide film, and it's likely to be an integral part of DSLR technology for quite some time to come.

Regardless of how you capture an image, it’s worth remembering that considerable tonal information will always be lost in the print. Various techniques can be used to expand the information in an image, whether it’s on film or created in a digital camera. The result should be a print with shadow and highlight detail that more accurately depicts the original scene. An image that has not been manipulated will probably produce a print with less apparent dynamic range. This underscores how important it is to familiarise yourself with image-editing software and so make proper use of the digital darkroom. A hi-res JPEG image converted to a lossless format for editing has more latitude than you might expect and unprocessed data straight from the camera (RAW) will allow you even more control, when necessary.

† Attachments for quality flatbed scanners cannot compete with dedicated 35mm film scanners.

Mark Kemp
17th of October 2004 (Sun), 07:16
One observation:-

You state that grain is similar to noise and both obviously limit the detail in a shot. Also you say, correctly imho, that although you can get larger size images from scanned film all you can see is more grain.

Yet you excuse high grain as follows :-

". But we should bear in mind that the distance from which a large 35mm film print will be viewed will make grain of little or no consequence. Will very tight film grain on an 18x12 print be that noticeable from five feet or more? No, it won’t."

So why does grain in film get excused by distance but the fact that an image occupied fewer megabytes on a hard disk is not similalrly excused when enlarged to the same size and viewed from the same distance?

I suspect that 6 or 8 megapixels will also look pretty good from five or six feet - I know my 16 * 12 A3 8mp shots don't look a lot different from a scanned film from a few feet.

Also I think that you might mention that the dynamic range of a DSLR is similar to slide film, most of your comments only apply to print film I think.

RichardtheSane
17th of October 2004 (Sun), 07:37
I too noticed the fact that slide film does not get a mention when it comes to dynamic range.

It only gets a mention when it comes to grain.

A good article needs to provide all the facts in a completely unbiased manner and yours provides most of the facts but the few it omits give it a bias away from the digital format.

Sam North
17th of October 2004 (Sun), 08:17
Hello Mark and Richard

Great to hear from you

I've done 18x12s from my 300D and it sparked an argument with staff in the lab! One said, "That's a print from a 300D!" and the other person, the manager no less, disputed it. I was very impressed, I have to say.

Grain and noise are indeed an issue at faster ratings, although noise has the edge.

My point is that at typical viewing distances grain, much like the effects of interpolation in that 18x12 I mentioned above, becomes difficult to see and largely irrelevant to enjoying the image in the print. If you concentrate on the grain, or move close to it, it's there ok. But why on earth would someone be looking for it? And then there's the advantage of using software like Neat Image...

I'm addressing this issue in the context of those who don't use film because of the grain. I'm claiming that it's not the issue many think it is, especially if you use various techniques to lessen its visual profile. I've no problem at all with large digital prints, although I'd take the view now that it would be best to interpolate an image from a 300D if 18x12 is your goal.

I've been around collecting info on the slide film to DSLR sensor comparison and in fact slide film records greater dynamic range than any DSLR: "CCDs and the related capture electronics will need about ten times more dynamic range (three stops) than they have today to be able to simulate film's shoulder. Of course negative film has more range still, but that's not really relevant to good photography since the dynamic range of negative film already exceeds what you ought to be photographing.." This is just one example from Mr Rockwell (many don't like him, but he's right here, just the same).

Yes, most of my points refer to print film because when scanned its dynamic range far exceeds DSLRs and even slide film, and that can only help the exhibited print. But it's neg film's capacity to hold the highlights that really interests me. It blows DSLRs and slide film away.

Slide film does contain more information than an image recorded by a DSLR, but to be fair, "Much [not "all", note] of that information does not add anything to the perceived image quality and is therefore redundant" (Nick Rains). He further points out that the DSLRs "256 discrete steps.. of tones in each colour channel... less than the eye can distinguish." Flim, being analogue in nature, has an infinite number. But we won't get to see all of that in the print!

To be fair, I didn't say [i]all you can see is more grain. Far from it. In fact I'm saying it's not quite the issue many DSLR users are telling me it is. I said this: "However, a larger scan for a bigger print means much larger grain! Some argue that increased grain, even with slower film, is a major incentive for switching to or sticking with DSLR. But we should bear in mind that the distance from which a large 35mm film print will be viewed will make grain of little or no consequence. " And, in context, I'm referring to very fine grain in slow slide film and quality 100 ISO negative film.

Finally, I've taken the time to emphasise the advantages of DSLRs right at the start. I shoot DSLR and I'm not biased at all against the digital format, but I'm convinced its shortcomings make slower high quality film a better option at times. For landscapes it's less than ideal and 35mm film is (I believe) another good alternative that works better.

I read a post last night from someone who's struggling to get landscape highlights sorted with his DSLR. This is exactly what I'm getting at. The DSLR problem can be largely solved, but it's quite a fiddle getting there! Neg film does a great job of holding the highlights, much better than slide film. So, it's ideal for scanning, and good scanners can wring quite a lot of detail from the shadows too.

Cheers

Sam

chris.bailey
18th of October 2004 (Mon), 01:35
Interesting article draft and though I dont disagree with the theory I would say that in practice the current crop of DSLR's come close to negatives scanned by professional standard scanners (like the Nikon 9000 costing around $4,000).

A lot of my photography revolves around taking photos of buildings my company has been involved in. In the past we employed a pro with a medium format camera to take pictures, had the negs professionally scanned on a drum scanner and then printed to sizes up to A1 (sometimes A0) so we had the sizes we needed for exhibitions etc.

We then went with 35mm film and scanned these in house on a Nikon Coolscan (cant remember which model) before then going digital (D30/D60/10D and now a MkII). At each stage we have prints from A4 up to A1.

My point is that though the large prints from the D30/D60 were inferior (less detail, more noise, less contrast) to the older drum scanned neg prints, it is very hard to tell which is which with a 10D or MKII. The prints produced from in-house scanning are far inferior to those produced by the 10D or MKII in terms of noise and dynamic range.

The current crop of good pro film scanners such as the Nikon 9000 rely on CCDs to capture the data and have similar dynamic range limitations to a DSLR so though the film itself may have more dynamic range, a lot of that is lost in the scan process (The 9000 has a DR of 4.8 stops). Take that in with the huge file sizes produced (some of ours are over 250MB for the drum scanned images) and any advantage of scanning starts to be a bit questionable. Take then the limitations of even good printers like the Epson 2100 and any gaps close still further.

In terms of noise, at a large print size (A1/A0) all of the methods we have used have it. Using Noise Ninja or the like produces other artefacts that show up on large prints so for large prints we tend not to use any form of noise reduction and very low levels of sharpening. Film grain looks more natural for some reason maybe because we all know it of old and accept it. Digital noise is less random and varies in degree between light and dark areas. I personally prefer film grain to digital noise.

In conclusion I believe that to get the quality of print of any decent size A4 and up you would need to spend as much if not more on a film scanner to get similar quality of results to a 20D/20D or MkII. Given the time taken in scanning piles of film why not go digital all the way through.

nosquare2003
18th of October 2004 (Mon), 03:38
DSLR is killing the film SLR, isn't it?

Sam, I agree most of your points. However, if I have to invest my time and money on scanning film, I will do it (with more time) for medium format instead.

Using Neat Image can be used to clear the (grain/noise) from the scanned image with a cost of time and some details. IMHO, it's still worth doing.

Is wide angle a big problem to DSLR? There are full frame and 1.3x DSLR available in the market. And the 12-24mm lens on a 1.6x DSLR will become 19-38mm that is wide enough for most cases. The real problem lies with cost only. (Scanning film is expensive in terms of scanner and time anyway). However, it is expected that the cost for DSLR (even full frame) will be lowered with the advance of technology, scale production and already paid-off R&D. I don't see a large demand for good film scanners however.

I don't think that sensor dust is a problem. Canon DSLR does not easily attract dust on sensor. (1D is an exception.) How often do you clean the dust on lens vs the dust on the sensor?

Yes, dynamic range is a drawback of DSLR when compared to negative. It's good to be addressed. To handle high contrast situation by DSLR, I may try if possible to:
- use grad. ND filters
- use fill flash
- use software
- shoot at another time

Sensor fringing seems to be happened under high contrast situation. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) IMHO, such high contrast photos don't look good to me most of the time.

BTW, I have a different opinion to chris.bailey regarding D60. It's not inferior to 10D except noise IMHO.

chris.bailey
18th of October 2004 (Mon), 06:17
BTW, I have a different opinion to chris.bailey regarding D60. It's not inferior to 10D except noise IMHO.

Have you tried viewing side by side prints at large size (A1)? The 10D image takes such expansion much better than a D60. The MKII is better again but not as noticeably as the D60 to 10D.

Sam North
18th of October 2004 (Mon), 06:46
I'm really glad you understand that this is just a draft and that I value the thoughts and comments of friends here. :) I take it all on board so that I can provide information on my site that will help others who are amateurs like me. It's hard to keep opinions and hobby-horses at bay! But facts are facts.

The whole scanning thing is of great interest, not least because so many of us have a lot of negs and slides that need scanned, and it's quite a costly business!

Others like to shoot both (I really do like the look of digital prints from film) and may not be happy with the prints they're getting from film through economy labs. And yes, medium format would make such a difference. I wish I had gone down that road years ago! I would still be there, with one eye on DSLR development.

Yes, wide-angles getting altered is not a huge problem, but you really have to ask, "How much is a DSLR eventually?" especially if you're moving on from film and have a selection of lenses including optics to get you wide. It's pretty certain that most ex-film users here will have added on the price of a wide zoom or prime to their new DSLR. But that's the way it can be with new technology that's evolving pretty fast.

So far I've been lucky with dust on the sensor (maybe because I shoot mostly outdoors with mostly one lens). Interestiingly, in connection with the above proposed article, I've been in touch with an expert in digital and film technology and I'm sure he wouldn't mind me sharing his observations about dusty sensors: "The dust on the DSLRs are simply too noticeable at small apertures, ruining images. No matter how one tries to clean the sensor, the dust comes back rapidly, especially in field conditions."

Thanks for the input. I'm weighing it all up and appreciate any help I can get!

Sam

Roger_Cavanagh
18th of October 2004 (Mon), 14:35
Sam,

I'm afraid your draft is long on opinion and short on fact. You take up positions in favour of film without presenting any real evidence and you postulate disadvantages of digital that are misleading.

You talk about dust on the sensor and make no comment about the hassle of cleaning slides or negs of dust to get a clean scan - a much harder job than making sure the sensor is clean because you have to do it for every frame.

You suggest a 3-stop advantage for film when the reality with the current range of DSLRs is more like 2 and say nothing of the 3-4 stop advantage of digital over slides.

You imply that there is an issue with enlargements of digital, when in fact, for most hobbyists 18x12 is the largest they'll ever print. At this size, a properly processed image from the current crop of DSLRs will be indistinguishable from film.

You put up and shoot down a straw man that people don't shoot film because of grain. I haven't seen too many claim "I've gone digital to avoid grain".

You suggest that the larger files from scanning are an advantage when, in fact, as you later somewhat grudgingly concede there isn't much more information - just more data.

You make a big fuss about detail in the highlights, when in fact, you are really talking about blown highlights and the different behaviour of digital and film - again ignoring slide film in the comparison.

You make no mention of the convenience of digital blending - a technique that offers more flexibility than traditional ND grads.

You accuse DSLRs of greater cost because users must buy a wide-angle and fail to mention the compensating benefit of apparently greater magnification of telephoto lenses.

The different handling of highlights and shadows in film is suggested as an advantage when, in fact, it's nothing more than characteristics of the differing media. Shooting digital does demand different technique from film. To capture the best quality image data, the brightest stops of the sensor's range should be used - the histogram pushed as far as possible to the right. At the moment, digital photographers must rely on their judgement and the histogram not to push things too far, but it won't surprise me, if in the future, we see cameras capable of metering algorithms that will "expose to the right" automatically.

I do concede that film's shoulder does offer advantages for some subjects (like sunsets), but the good photographer can anticipate this and cope.

Regards,

Sam North
18th of October 2004 (Mon), 16:50
Hello Roger

Thanks for the input - I do appreciate it.

Firstly, if I "make a big fuss" about a lack of detail in the highlights it's because it's been a consistent irritation I've had with my 300D since I got it. It's exactly the same with my G5.

I'm very disappointed by digital’s highlight shortcomings. It's a significant factor in pushing me back to using film some of the time. (See the illustrated panel on my site page here http://www.theimageplane.net/tip2_075.htm to see where I’m coming from.) Negative film does more for me visually (personal choice), is easier to expose in the field, and handles the highlights much better than slide film and digital.

To be fair, I suppose this hits home with me more because I shoot a lot outdoors, maybe in the style of someone like Brian Bower - that is to say, I hand-hold a lot and rarely use grey grads. (I’m not used to needing one!) I’m not saying my shots are anything like as good as his! On the whole, negative film gives me more latitude outdoors and I can't sing the praises of Reala film enough. I stopped shooting slides after a few rolls of Reala went through.

Anyway, coming back to your interesting points about the draft article, you say: “You suggest a 3-stop advantage for film when the reality with the current range of DSLRs is more like 2 and say nothing of the 3-4 stop advantage of digital over slides.” The funny thing is, it depends on who you read. Since putting this in the article last week, I’ve been wading through more material here and there that, to be completely honest, just confused me! There isn’t a clear picture here really. So I hold my hands up: I cannot say with assurance what actual advantage digital has over slides (or vice-versa), because it’s not clear to me. If possible, please share more on this subject, if you don’t mind. I’ve now drastically scaled the issue down in my final draft. Was I over my head? Perhaps! Learning… That's one reason why this was a draft.

Anyway, a very knowledgeable expert has just told me: “…while film does not saturate as fast as digital, film loses the details in the noise at the low end. But the overall result is that digital has more dynamic range, at least upper end prosumer DSLRs do… This is true even when scanning film at 16-bits/channel, which is what I do now. 16-bit scans help coax more dynamic range out of film, but not as much as DSLRs have.” What do we make of that?

You say: “You imply that there is an issue with enlargements of digital, when in fact, for most hobbyists 18x12 is the largest they'll ever print. At this size, a properly processed image from the current crop of DSLRs will be indistinguishable from film.” Yes, it’s grain against interpolation, but I’m not so sure I agree with your conclusion here, especially if software techniques are employed to iron out grain in areas of continuous tone. I should do this very thing though, out of interest, instead of just talking about it.

I think you’re unfairly stretching the point about grain. It is one reason, even a major incentive, why some don’t shoot film, but it’s unlikely to be the only reason.

You say: “You make no mention of the convenience of digital blending - a technique that offers more flexibility than traditional ND grads.” In fact, although I’m guilty of not mentioning it in the text, I have demonstrated the results of it on the webpage I’ve already linked to in my 1st post. Did you go to it?

You say: “You accuse DSLRs of greater cost because users must buy a wide-angle and fail to mention the compensating benefit of apparently greater magnification of telephoto lenses.” You’re absolutely right here. I have corrected this significant omission in the final article.

“The different handling of highlights and shadows in film” is in fact an advantage to me, and will be an advantage to anybody since negative film handles highlights so much better. It makes life easier for me. There’s no way I’d now even think about shooting landscapes with digital, without a grey grad and other techniques I’ve touched on in my updated article.

Anyway, we're all in this together if we're in it at all. Thanks for helping Roger. Your response is exactly what I needed. “Publish and be damned!” goes with the territory, but it doesn’t excuse getting my facts wrong and peddling opinions as if they were cast in stone. Tricky business this, but worth the effort if it helps amateurs get their heads around the basics of photography, one of the most interesting hobbies around!

Sam

Scottes
18th of October 2004 (Mon), 18:57
Sam,

I've [effectively] never shot film, and (probably) won't ever do so. This article really makes no impact on my life. By the time I decide to try film they'll probably have digital cameras with a 16-stop range and 250 megapixels and they'll sell for less than a TV. (I hope!) So I will probably never ever shoot film in my lifetime.

But I do find this interesting reading. I'm not sure why, but it's interesting.


Anyway, the real reason for this post: I've got to hand it to you. You're learning, listening, and correcting without arrogance and only a slight bend towards your preference for film. (Well, it's not a painfully obviously arrogant preference anyway.) You seem very open-minded on this issue.

Should you publish this, you're probably going to get crucified by both sides. That doesn't seem to daunt you at all. So again, I've got to hand it to you.


So, in the end, when both sides are done with you... can I have your cameras?
:D

Sam North
19th of October 2004 (Tue), 05:02
Hello Scottes

Yes, the future looks really good for digital imaging, and where film will slot in is hard to say - maybe the big 4x5 stuff.

I've reworked the article and published it on my site, so when I'm fully shot through with holes you can have the cameras. Sounds like they'll go to a good home. I've tried to find a useful balance in the text for amateurs, so that they know what they're getting into with digital. It's called From SLRs to DSLRs now. Whether I've succeeded or not... :roll:

Thanks for the kind words! You're right - I do have a preference for negative film but I'm really enjoying the DSLR advantages. We're talking about the future here and on the whole it's a real boon for amateurs especially. I'm particularly devoted to my G5.

Good luck with your photography!

Sam