My email response to being asked for free photos

[therealmr]

A guy who I met through a class saw me taking a picture: a female student painting a university building on a sunny day. It was pretty cool. This guy also happens to work with the Admissions office of the university I attend. His job is to basically promote our school in any way he can. He wanted to use my photo on emails to sent out to students, as well as on the admissions website. He's a nice fella, which is why I gave him this response:

Read below for my response on page 2





Alright so, I'm going to be honest about what I feel about this situation. In fact, I'm going to explain the process behind my feelings... since I feel like you would be the type of guy who would have fun with that information. Let's just call it my 'personal philosophy on photography'. Lots of P's. Haha.

I've been doing photography for about 2.5 years. I'm even teaching a class on it this quarter... and hopefully again next quarter as well. Photography is my part-time job, and helps finance college, believe it or not. I'm working 2 jobs (******* *****, ****) and freelance in ********** just about every weekend. This is kindof my thing, what I want to do. Being a self-proclaimed 'photographer' is a hard standard to live up to. In addition, it is tough to break the common person's perception of a photographer - IE... everyone who has a camera is one. You say you do some photography... and I'm sure you've seen that it takes more than just having a camera to be a photographer. Now before I get any further, I don't want to say I'm the Ansel Adams of photography. Nope, not the flashy Joey Lawrence either... but it is my job.

Most people, when hiring for freelance photos, expect everything to be done for free. Why? Because being a photographer is owning a camera, and they already know a BUNCH of people with cameras. Why give you money when they can ask their friends for a favor? It's people like these, and photographers who fall into the trap of doing these gigs for no-pay who are killing the amateurs(& me; slowly-leaning-toward-pro). Those who take the free gigs are the photographers who eventually leave the business because it isn't making any money for them. Imagine that, quite a self-fulfilling prophecy =)

Now, let's move onto the photo we were originally discussing. I shot it using a Canon 20d, 16-35 f/2.8 mkII, and 580ex mkII, which have a combined value of approximately $2,300. The photo will be used as a promotional shot for the university. Perhaps it will convince a high school student, somewhere out there, that "WOW, this university is the place for me to go". In this case, this photo will have made the university more money than the cost of the camera that I used to take the picture. Who is going to see that money? You? Me? Realistically, no. As far as I'm concerned, giving you (AKA this school) even this one photo makes me no money and you no money. The photo credit, wherever it may be, is negligible. So, I'm giving away a product (that not everyone can make, mind you) and getting nothing in return. Ahie!

I've been out of the trap of doing gigs for free for almost a year and a half, now... and I'm not about to go back to it anytime soon. for If this were a different circumstance... like, say... you were that artist... and you wanted to use it to promote yourself on a personal website - perhaps I'd think differently. That's more of a favor, and despite what it may sound like, I have of room for those. "Favors" like these, however, are far to great to ask. Now, with that said, I sincerely hope you don't take it personally or in a negative way. I wrote this out because I think you're a cool guy, and that you deserve an explanation for what you might've otherwise deemed "douche-tastic".

-Erik

What an extraordinary long-winded way of saying something that could have been said in one sentence!

I tend to agree with the guys above, your email just went on and on and you wrote it in a really informal way like something you'd send to a friend rather than a possible future client (even if he didn't want to pay now he could ask furthr up the chain for some money). Even if you knew him a professional and concice reply would have been better, he probably doesn't want to know about your business ethics, he just wanted the photo


I've noticed a lot of people have been saying this :)

This guy and I took a a few philosophy classes together (he's 22, and it is his minor), and had some very lengthy discussions on more dry topics than this. This is part of the reason for my extended response. While one sentence would've gotten the point across, given our history - I knew he'd appreciate this format more. And, while you may not believe me on that point, you'll have to trust me.

Had this been for a customer, I would have reacted quite differently.

[Gary_Evans]

Personally I would just offer a polite "sorry, but I dont work for free". That waffle makes you sound like a numpty.

Just my opinion

[Rick Rosen]

Give him the photo under the condition that you receive a credit line with your web address on the flyer. You can't buy that amount of penetration.

Rick

[photoguy6405]

The two shorter options above are far better than the wordy e-mail, IMHO. I stopped reading it half way through as it just all ran together.

[shack]

He needed a short, polite, concise response...not a lecture or your business philosophy or your photographic "journey".

[xpsentity]

Giving up massive exposure.. watermarked website anyone?

Above poster is correct, you can't buy that kind of advertising.

[ssim]

I would never take the time to lecture a potential customer on what I do and how I got here. I would be spending way too much time writing these out. To be honest it almost sound like you are whining that they asked for this photo for no charge.

I totally agree that a much more simplified no answer would suffice.

I have been known to give the odd free image to non profit organizations but when it comes to a organization that is in the business of making money (universities) they don't get a break.


Give him the photo under the condition that you receive a credit line with your web address on the flyer. You can't buy that amount of penetration.

Rick
Credits are good as long as the target audience are potential photography service buyers. In this case, I highly doubt that university students are going to be buying much in the way of photography.

I learned this a long time ago. Getting your name out there is important but you have to do it in a manner that is meaningful and will be remembered. Name me the photographer from the last brochure that you looked at. I would bet that less than a handful of 100 people would be able to recall that and those brochures tend to get tossed into the recycle bin or the bottom of the drawer. I am not a fan of just giving photos for credit as I don't think that it draws the attention that alot of people think it does.

[Col_M]

I tend to agree with the guys above, your email just went on and on and you wrote it in a really informal way like something you'd send to a friend rather than a possible future client (even if he didn't want to pay now he could ask furthr up the chain for some money). Even if you knew him a professional and concice reply would have been better, he probably doesn't want to know about your business ethics, he just wanted the photo :)

[Roy Mathers]

What an extraordinary long-winded way of saying something that could have been said in one sentence!

[Fenster]

A simple yes or no with an explanation would do more than a wordy rant that we're not even bothering to read.

[jonnythan]

A simple "No, I'm sorry. This is my job and I don't work for free. I'm a professional because the product I invest my time and money to create has real value on the market, and it would make no sense for me to invest my time and money to create products I'd give away for free" would more than suffice.

[Trainboy]

Agreed. If after that he asked why not, then there's your reason to go on a rant ;)

[shack]

I tend to agree with the guys above, your email just went on and on and you wrote it in a really informal way like something you'd send to a friend rather than a possible future client (even if he didn't want to pay now he could ask furthr up the chain for some money). Even if you knew him a professional and concice reply would have been better, he probably doesn't want to know about your business ethics, he just wanted the photo :)

The response you gave more than likely means you will NEVER have the oportunity to have him or the university as a paying client. A more professional response may have convinced him your work was worth paying for.

[xpsentity]

Ok. So.. if I know I'm not going to get paid for something, I'll take the free exposure / advertising. Instead of ensuring that I get neither, and preventing any future work.

Some of these responses are ridiculous from a business standpoint. I can see a myriad of ways this *could* make money.

[Jim7226]

Wow! If I had sent this e-mail I would be having BIG TIME regrets in hitting the send button. Which makes me wonder...if this is how you (the OP) truly feel why did you post the letter here? Looking for an affirmation from others that you did the right thing? As others have said...there's great value in being terse and concise in your response to accomplish the very same outcome. Good luck! :)

[bndgrl]

"douche-tastic" ??? Seriously? You did not just use that word in a business reply? :rolleyes: :eek:

I think maybe you should use some of that money you're earning off your photography for a business communication class.

[gymell]

For someone who wants to be treated as a professional, this letter certainly isn't - length, language and tone all very unprofessional.

[jonnythan]

I think maybe you should use some of that money you're earning off your photography for a business communication class.

That's actually a *great* idea.

The problem with hobby-turned-profession is that the people who do this usually have no business training or experience whatsoever.

[Curtis N]

To the OP: I'm not going to come down on you for what you wrote. You will soon enough learn to simply send a price list to those who request images.

Sheldon is right about the value of photo credit. That, plus $1.09, will buy you a cup of coffee at McDonald's.

[ssim]

Ok. So.. if I know I'm not going to get paid for something, I'll take the free exposure / advertising. Instead of ensuring that I get neither, and preventing any future work.

Some of these responses are ridiculous from a business standpoint. I can see a myriad of ways this *could* make money.

Then why did you not share at least a few of the myriad with the OP?

[cleanbluesky]

I would never take the time to lecture a potential customer on what I do and how I got here. I would be spending way too much time writing these out. To be honest it almost sound like you are whining that they asked for this photo for no charge.

I totally agree that a much more simplified no answer would suffice.


A longer, more complex answer enables a greater empathy, prevents a miscommunication and provides enough information for the receiver of the e-mail to believe that there is an dimension to the situation that they previously overlooked and giving the sender of the e-mail a sense of authority.

The only thing I would say is that the OP doesn't seem to have used that for anything, other than an elaborate way of saying "No", and then coming here to exhibit the e-mail probably because he isn't sure how he feels about sending it.

[therealmr]

What an extraordinary long-winded way of saying something that could have been said in one sentence!

I tend to agree with the guys above, your email just went on and on and you wrote it in a really informal way like something you'd send to a friend rather than a possible future client (even if he didn't want to pay now he could ask furthr up the chain for some money). Even if you knew him a professional and concice reply would have been better, he probably doesn't want to know about your business ethics, he just wanted the photo


I've noticed a lot of people have been saying this :)

This guy and I took a a few philosophy classes together (he's 22, and it is his minor), and had some very lengthy discussions on more dry topics than this. This is part of the reason for my extended response. While one sentence would've gotten the point across, given our history - I knew he'd appreciate this format more. And, while you may not believe me on that point, you'll have to trust me.

Had this been for a customer, I would have reacted quite differently.

[gymell]

A longer, more complex answer enables a greater empathy, prevents a miscommunication and provides enough information for the receiver of the e-mail to believe that there is an dimension to the situation that they previously overlooked and giving the sender of the e-mail a sense of authority.

The only thing I would say is that the OP doesn't seem to have used that for anything, other than an elaborate way of saying "No", and then coming here to exhibit the e-mail probably because he isn't sure how he feels about sending it.

I don't think including the term "douche-tastic" in a business letter gives any sense of authority. And saying something in several paragraphs that could have been done in a few sentences in just bad writing. It evokes boredom rather than empathy. Longer is not necessarily better.

[sapearl]

I'm sorry - I gave up after the first paragraph. No offense intended but I wasn't sure when you were getting to the point and my lunch hour is almost over. I totally agree with Rick. Your website and name published on thousands of pieces of literature - wow, what a terrific promotion.

Is it too late to retract your first response?

Give him the photo under the condition that you receive a credit line with your web address on the flyer. You can't buy that amount of penetration.

Rick

[HotShots]

A guy who I met through a class saw me taking a picture: a female student painting a university building on a sunny day. It was pretty cool. This guy also happens to work with the Admissions office of the university I attend. His job is to basically promote our school in any way he can. He wanted to use my photo on emails to sent out to students, as well as on the admissions website. He's a nice fella, which is why I gave him this response:


I guess I must be reading this from a different perspective. When he asked for the pictures did he SPECIFICALLY say something about a free photo? If he didn't, I think a perfect response would have fallen along the lines of:

"Absolutely, I would love for my picture to be part of the school's brochure! I will bring a disk with the picture and an invoice for $xxx.xx by your office tomorrow."

[jonnythan]

I guess I must be reading this from a different perspective. When he asked for the pictures did he SPECIFICALLY say something about a free photo? If he didn't, I think a perfect response would have fallen along the lines of:

"Absolutely, I would love for my picture to be part of the school's brochure! I will bring a disk with the picture and an invoice for $xxx.xx by your office tomorrow."

That's a hell of a point.

[scorpio_e]

Short sweet and honest is always the best. Before you send an email you have to think " What am I trying to accomplish" Most people spend 30 seconds per email .
In this case, I would have quoted a price for my work. Leave it open for negotiation
As others have noted, recognition would have been a good compensation

[scorpio_e]

douchetastic

adjective: a general douchebag.

I would remove that from my dictionary *LOL*
I would never use that in any type of business interaction

[shack]

A longer, more complex answer enables a greater empathy, prevents a miscommunication and provides enough information for the receiver of the e-mail to believe that there is an dimension to the situation that they previously overlooked and giving the sender of the e-mail a sense of authority.

The only thing I would say is that the OP doesn't seem to have used that for anything, other than an elaborate way of saying "No", and then coming here to exhibit the e-mail probably because he isn't sure how he feels about sending it.

You don't do much business communication do you?

[scorpio_e]

He's a nice fella, which is why I gave him this response:
[/b]

I do nto want to be your enemy ;)

[cleanbluesky]

You don't do much business communication do you?

I'm a freelancer (not photog) and I've also studied communication of all types including neuro-linguistic programming. I don't know your background but if your expertise is based on some idea of having gone on a seminar about 'business communication', I've read the source books from which they create a watered down package and then sell to you as if they're offering something authoritative when in fact they're just good at marketing.

What YOU did, was to imply that you have some sense of authority by suggesting that there is something separate from 'normal' communication known as 'business communication' and that you've got authority over it to a point that you can judge others. What I did in response to that, is to explain a little about my education on the subject, in an attempt to steal the frame of expertise.

:)

I think most of the popular ideas within business communication should be re-written - and as far as those who criticise the OP are concerned remember that honesty is the best policy and the OP is learning to express himself in that way.

[ironchef31]

If it's going to be a business then you have to treat it like you are an employee of that company. Would you send that response on behalf of your boss? Stuff like that can always come back and bite you in the a$$.
You are within your rights to sell the photo but if there is no agreement on purchasing the photo than so be it.
Good luck going pro.

[shack]

30+ years of success in the financial sector where communication is paramount led me to make my comment. Somehow I knew your answer would be based on "education" vs practical application.

[Col_M]

This guy and I took a a few philosophy classes together (he's 22, and it is his minor)

Ah, it makes a bit more sense, it's not so bad now you've mentioned that.

[Gary_Evans]

Somehow I knew your answer would be based on "education" vs practical application.

Fantastic response. Like it.

[cleanbluesky]

30+ years of success in the financial sector where communication is paramount led me to make my comment. Somehow I knew your answer would be based on "education" vs practical application.


Excellent response, although note that the idea of 'success in the financial sector' is a little vague and its not an industry that revolves around a finesse in understanding communication. If you were offering to do a service for me I'd need a little more convincing than mysterious 'success in the financial sector'. Did they send you on a seminar? Are you a Serious Businessman?

Yes, a full academic education behind the practical application. I have 'years of success' but not in the financial sector. Now get all boardroom on my ass, don't hold back tiger! Serious Business.

:lol:

Just kidding, you're alright. And lets put this all behind us, because winning an argument on the internet is like winning the special Olympics. I stand by my previous comments, although I also acknowledge that the OP would have also been okay if he'd been far more business like.

[SlowBlink]

Ok Gary, I'm gobsmacked...but what's a numpty? :)

[shack]

I'm currently a Private and Commercial Banker. I've been to various seminars but generally ignore what they "preach". My capacity to earn a living is based up on the ability to communicate effectively with successful individuals and other business people, whether it is my clients, my superiors or peers within the industry. My success has been due to my knowledge of my clients and the ability to understand and communicate their requirements to do business with me and vise versa.

I have no need to win anything. I merely stated my opinion. Nothing more...nothing less. And I too stand by my original comments.

Hopefully this young man will learn how to deal with others in a "business-like" manner that will serve him well if he wants to take his photography to that level. Regardless of theory...there is a level of expectation between parties when conducting business that must be considered. Potential clients don't want to be educated or know all of the background of the decision...they want their needs met and want to know if you can help them make that happen.

I wish him well in the future.

[scorpio_e]

Very interesting topic !!!!
K.I.S You have less opportunity of tripping over you words:)

[Fenster]

Ok Gary, I'm gobsmacked...but what's a numpty? :)

An idiot.

[Gary_Evans]

Ok Gary, I'm gobsmacked...but what's a numpty? :)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=numpty

[EnronRocks]

I tell them that I do not ask them to work for free, so it is rude to ask me to.

[primoz]

To be honest, all this doesn't sound too professional for me. I never explain to our clients, or potential clients, how much our equipment costs, how much we work to get those photos, how expensive bread and milk is, etc. etc.
In business things are clear... we are there to make money, and that's pretty much all idea about business.... photo business or any other business. It really is this way, even if it sounds bad. So when someone, we have never worked with before, and for who I have feeling he wants photos for free, asks for photos, I send him quote with short notice on end, "If you are still interested, please let me know". That's enough.
If they were ready to pay on beginning already, I don't look like idiot trying to explain them things they know already. If not, it's still professional enough way to tell them they are not getting photos for free.
On the other side, if this would be conversation when drinking beer, this would be quite good way to keep conversation going on for a while. :)

[primoz]

Give him the photo under the condition that you receive a credit line with your web address on the flyer. You can't buy that amount of penetration.
Gee... when will you guys learn, that working for byline is same as working for free. I check photos different way, then most of people, who doesn't give a shi*** about photography, do, but once I'm through newspaper, I still can't remember who took which photo.
Byline doesn't bring you much, if any at all, business. Ok one of my samples... One local cycling magazine with quite big circulation wanted cover photo. Of course they wanted it for free, because with their circulation, it would be huge advertising for me. Afterall, my name and agency's name would be written on next page as author of cover photo. Now I bet, based on your comment, lots of people would jump on this "opportunity". I was a bit more realistic, so I made a bit of calculation... Until that moment, we sold 99% of cycling photos to other agencies or newspapers we work with. We almost never sell photos to cyclists (no idea why, but it's perfectly fine to spend 10.000eur for bike, but they rather have unsharp snapshots from p&s cameras, then spending 10eur for good photo... anyway not my problem :)), and this magazine was mainly focusing on those cyclists, we never sell anything to them. So what would this "publicity" bring us? Lot of sale? Yeah right. So we skipped that "deal" and wanted money... byline is still there, even if you get money ;)
Same goes for original poster... having your name on some brochure which is read by everyone else except people who could be your customer, doesn't mean anything. Even if they would read byline and even remember it, they are still not interested in your photos. So what's your profit with this?

[michael_]

the only time a byline works for me is when i want/need to show i have been published, ie when applying for accreditation for sporting events, otherwise as primoz said "working for byline is same as working for free"

[Gary Lindquist]

Great discussion.

I got the impression that this person came up to him stating that he liked the picture and that he was working on a brochure for the university and thought it would make a great cover. Then, I would suppose, he asked if that would be okay. Now, if this were the conversation, or something to this effect, I would simply say:

"That would be great! Are you in a position to discuss fees for the rights to use the image? And, if not, could you make arrangements for you and I to meet with someone with this authority?"

I certainly would not have written such an email and I usually try to think positively and make a 'positive' assumption that the person asking is willing and able to pay. No point in getting negative, or do or say something to scare them away before knowing their intentions.