Newbie to RAW and G9 - a couple of questions before buying

[WT21]

A couple of questions, if someone could help.

I used to shoot SLR as a hobby back in the film days. Now with kids, etc. I have been sticking w/ELPHs (SD800IS is the current one) because I don't have time to manage anything other than a PNS.

I'd like more zoom and better quality photos than what my 800IS produces. I'm also thinking of trying RAW. But, I still need a "pocket" camera (at least jacket pocket). I just wouldn't carry an SLR. So, the G9 looks interesting (and has OIS instead of IS, which would be a bonus)


But, a couple of questions: I've read a lot about the Megapixel race, and how more MP introduce more noise to the photo, given the same size imager. Frankly, that's the one knock I have on Canon I have now -- too much grain. I know the G9 has a 1/1.7" CCD vs. a 1/2.5"CCD on the 800IS, but it also has 50% more pixels. When I calculated the pixels per square inch, the G9 definitely has more ppi, so I'm thinking it's got to be more noisy (??)

So, two questions on the nature of MP on a CCD. Basically, are those pixels physical or are they some sort of firmware or software control. Not sure if that question makes sense, but here's two more concrete questions that might clarify what I'm asking:

1) If I shoot in RAW, does MP still impact noise? That is, if I had a 1/1.7"CCD w/8MP would it produce a less noisy image than a 1/1.7"CCD w/12MP?

2) If I am shooting JPEG on a G9, can I step the resolution of the picture down and get a less noisy shot? That is, if I shot at say 1/2 resolution, does it only use 1/2 of the CCD, or does it double up the pixels, so I actually get more light-gathering ability in a lower res shot than a higher one?

I know these are technical questions, and I'm probably asking them wrong, but I could use some guidance. I've been down to Circuit City and Best Buy w/SD card in hand to try out the G9, and their batteries have been dead, and so I can't really try one. Those stores charge a 15% restocking fee, so I want to be sure this is a good choice for me before moving off my 800IS.

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

[JohnJ80]

See below.

j

A couple of questions, if someone could help.

I used to shoot SLR as a hobby back in the film days. Now with kids, etc. I have been sticking w/ELPHs (SD800IS is the current one) because I don't have time to manage anything other than a PNS.

I'd like more zoom and better quality photos than what my 800IS produces. I'm also thinking of trying RAW. But, I still need a "pocket" camera (at least jacket pocket). I just wouldn't carry an SLR. So, the G9 looks interesting (and has OIS instead of IS, which would be a bonus)


But, a couple of questions: I've read a lot about the Megapixel race, and how more MP introduce more noise to the photo, given the same size imager. Frankly, that's the one knock I have on Canon I have now -- too much grain. I know the G9 has a 1/1.7" CCD vs. a 1/2.5"CCD on the 800IS, but it also has 50% more pixels. When I calculated the pixels per square inch, the G9 definitely has more ppi, so I'm thinking it's got to be more noisy (??)

So, two questions on the nature of MP on a CCD. Basically, are those pixels physical or are they some sort of firmware or software control.

physical. It is the sensor and cannot be changed by s/w.

Not sure if that question makes sense, but here's two more concrete questions that might clarify what I'm asking:

1) If I shoot in RAW, does MP still impact noise? That is, if I had a 1/1.7"CCD w/8MP would it produce a less noisy image than a 1/1.7"CCD w/12MP?

There is more to it than just the size, but assuming they are the same sensor, the RAW out of the camera will actually be noiser, but have more detail, than the jpg right out of the camera. That is because the jpg has had in camera noise reduction software applied to it.

The benefit in raw is that you have all the detail and you can adjust the image anyway you want. You decide what detail is more important rather than letting the camera decide.

So, if you are using one of the programs designed to process RAW - like LR for instance - and you do your noise reduction in the computer as opposed to the camera, you will get better results than the jpg out of the camera and they will be better than you get from the lower end P&S camera like you are currently using.

If you use s/w like LR, much of this is hidden from you so it isn't like you have to process every image. This makes using RAW very straightforward.



2) If I am shooting JPEG on a G9, can I step the resolution of the picture down and get a less noisy shot? That is, if I shot at say 1/2 resolution, does it only use 1/2 of the CCD, or does it double up the pixels, so I actually get more light-gathering ability in a lower res shot than a higher one?


sort of - if you are stepping the detail down you are basically losing detail. Pretty much the same net impact to using the higher res and noise reduction.

If you keep the ISO low, you will get great results out of the G9 - better than your SD800. If you go to higher ISO and you let your PC do the noise reduction at higher ISO, you will still get better resolution than with your P&S.


I know these are technical questions, and I'm probably asking them wrong, but I could use some guidance. I've been down to Circuit City and Best Buy w/SD card in hand to try out the G9, and their batteries have been dead, and so I can't really try one. Those stores charge a 15% restocking fee, so I want to be sure this is a good choice for me before moving off my 800IS.

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

Here's a low ISO G9 shot. Shots like this will begin to approach dslr quality.

J.

http://www.pbase.com/johnj80/image/91137791.jpg

[WT21]

JohnJ80 - thanks for the reply. I think I asked a couple of things incorrectly, but I understand overall what you are saying. The sensor is physically designed to be 12MP, so there's no way to play w/settings to get it to act like 8MP on a 1/1.7" sensor (that would be sweet if I could). I also understand what you are saying about getting better shots on a G9 over my 800IS. It's just that I got a new Macbook and new video camera recently, and a new picture camera might not go over well with the spouse :-) So, I'd need to make sure it's a pretty strong step in quality, not just a slight incremental improvement.

Although... my wife used to shoot SLR as well, so she might get into a camera with full ap and f stop control and with ISO settings on a dial instead of a menu. Also, the zoom would help a lot. I find I am zooming/cropping way too many pictures to compensate for my 3X zoom.

One other question: when you shoot RAW+JPEG, is the JPEG normal, fine or superfine? Doing some math from the Canon website, it looks like it's fine, not superfine, which would be a shame. It'd be nice to have the option to keep the RAW or keep the jpg from a shot.

[JohnJ80]

JohnJ80 - thanks for the reply. I think I asked a couple of things incorrectly, but I understand overall what you are saying. The sensor is physically designed to be 12MP, so there's no way to play w/settings to get it to act like 8MP on a 1/1.7" sensor (that would be sweet if I could).
Yep. the pixel's are configured right into the sensor. No way around it.

I also understand what you are saying about getting better shots on a G9 over my 800IS. It's just that I got a new Macbook and new video camera recently, and a new picture camera might not go over well with the spouse :-) So, I'd need to make sure it's a pretty strong step in quality, not just a slight incremental improvement.

I know that feeling!

I do think the G9 is way past most P&S especially if you are shooting in RAW. It is the P&S camera that I think most dslr shooters can be comfortable with. But, you'd have to make that judgment yourself based on what you shoot and see. Given that the SD800 is not Canon's best effort in P&S due to the sensor size and density (I actually like my wife's SD300 better). I do think this does much better than that. Better lens, better sensor, more control etc... Putting the G9 on pure auto, you might not see much difference just because it is the camera making the decision.


Although... my wife used to shoot SLR as well, so she might get into a camera with full ap and f stop control and with ISO settings on a dial instead of a menu. Also, the zoom would help a lot. I find I am zooming/cropping way too many pictures to compensate for my 3X zoom.

The 12mp sensor in good light at low ISO, does really well. Then you do get the cropping ability.

Tv and Av are of some utility on a small sensor camera, but since the DOF is so deep on small sensors anyhow, you won't find that as beneficial as you would on a dslr - you have to work on it. Too, because of the sensor size and density, you start to see optical issues (diffraction) above about f/5.0.

ISO control is huge however. RAW is huge.


One other question: when you shoot RAW+JPEG, is the JPEG normal, fine or superfine? Doing some math from the Canon website, it looks like it's fine, not superfine, which would be a shame. It'd be nice to have the option to keep the RAW or keep the jpg from a shot.

I don't shoot RAW+jpg - eats up your card very quickly. Just shoot RAW and use something like LR or even iPhoto and you won't need to worry about jpg. If someone wants a jpg, just export it as such.

This is a lot more camera than an Elph.

J

[WT21]

Thanks again. Good info. Very helpful. I'm going to try one more run down to BB or circuitcity with my SD card and 800IS and try to get some comparison shots. Maybe the batteries on their display models will be charged mid-day (each time before, I went at night).

I'll have to try out my old SD300 and step down the SD800 to the same resolution, and see how they compare, just for kicks. I found I kept zooming and cropping on the 300, so I went to the 800 for more megapixels. But I'm still doing it on the 800. Maybe if I can get 6X optical zoom, OIS and use my own noise filter post-processing, this will be the right camera for me.

I do end up shooting in low light a lot (kids school events, etc). But I can't imagine ANY PNS on the market is good in low light, just because the imagers are all so small.

Thanks much, and I'll let you know if I end up getting one.

[JohnJ80]

The other advantage to the G9, even though it makes for an interesting package to hold, is that you can put a big flash on the G9. Can't do that on a P&S.

J