Copyright Question

[vwjoe76]

Hello everyone,
I recently did a freelance shoot for a lady who organized the event I shot. We agreed on $150 for the shoot and I'm giving her a disc of the photos. She told me in a recent email "not to give the pictures to anyone else." I do not have any intentions, as of now, of using the photos anytime soon. The question I have is, once I sell the photos to her do I retain the copyright? If so, can I use these photos in the future as well as protect from her using them to sell to someone else? I think she wants to sell these to other people, or at least that's the impression I got. Thanks for any and all help! :) Take care.

--Joe

[HammerCope]

Yes you own the copyright and yes you can do what you want with them. Unless other wise stated in the contract.

[sapearl]

Joe, did you have any sort of written contract that prohibits you from other use of your copyrighted photos? What sort of event was it and what reasons did she state for not releasing the shots to anybody else? I guess the big thing is: what does she plan to do with the photos?

[photoguy6405]

Since it seems she has intentions beyond just having digital copies on her part, you should get these specifics in writing as part of a contract.

[Zansho]

As the photographer, you have all copyright ownership, unless you gave up your rights to her in some sort of written agreement.

No written agreement? Verbal only? If that's the case, and she takes you to court, it's going to be "your word against hers." If the images are of value to you, I'd suggest sending them off to Library of Congress to have them copyrighted to protect you better, and keep a master copy of the images in 3 different forms - on your HD, on a DVD/CD and a USB drive.

And I have to say this: If you're selling all the copyrights to her for $150.00, you've been had. One time user rights can be worth anywhere from 1k-5k, depending on the market and what/how it's used.

[photoguy6405]

Just a gut feeling, but I suspect she expects to be able to sell these images exclusively.

[sapearl]

That's my problem - I assume that people are usually more honest than that, but you might be right photoguy.

Joe, how much PP did you do to these images... are they RAW files or extensively photoshopped high rez JPG's that you put a lot of time and effort into?

Just a gut feeling, but I suspect she expects to be able to sell these images exclusively.

[photoguy6405]

That's my problem - I assume that people are usually more honest than that, but you might be right photoguy.

Joe, how much PP did you do to these images... are they RAW files or extensively photoshopped high rez JPG's that you put a lot of time and effort into?

Part of the reason I say that is that the OP mentions that the lady was an organizer of an 'event', and she also told him to "not to give the pictures to anyone else.", which leads me to believe that they are not of just her kids or family, but rather of random shots of an overall event. So I wonder why someone would be so protective of photos of kids/people that aren't theirs.

[swampler]

As said, you need a written contract. You're selling her a license, not the pictures. A license for personal use for $150 isn't bad, but for exclusive use, including commercial, you got ripped.

[Uhland]

Sounds like you were not clear before you made the deal. Thats your fault due to your inexperiance imho.
If I were you id do one of two things.

1. Talk to her and get a written contract signed stating that you did not sell ehr the rights. (bad thing to do AFTER the exchange)

2. Chalk it up as you sold her full useage rights for a measly $150 bucks and a lesson learned.

[brianMedine]

She bought your services and the prints, she did not buy the rights. You can sell her the rights. But as the photographer, it is your art that you captured on film(memory) and thus it remains your intellectual property.

This situation of course does not apply if you are photographing someone elses intellectual property hence why you aren't usually allwoed to take pictuers in productions, or galleries. Since that would be you duplicating their work and infringing their copyright.

[OdiN1701]

I always have something in my contract which states that if provided with a CD of digital negatives that it does not imply transferrence of copyright and that I still retain all copyright. It just provides the purchaser with the permission to reproduce prints from the images for personal use only.

[Uhland]

I always have something in my contract which states that if provided with a CD of digital negatives that it does not imply transferrence of copyright and that I still retain all copyright. It just provides the purchaser with the permission to reproduce prints from the images for personal use only.

Good thing to have ;)

[vwjoe76]

That's my problem - I assume that people are usually more honest than that, but you might be right photoguy.

Joe, how much PP did you do to these images... are they RAW files or extensively photoshopped high rez JPG's that you put a lot of time and effort into?

Sorry guys,
I started this thread and forgot all about it. There were never any contracts or other written statements involved. I did some PP on high res. jpeg's. There were 120 photos in all, so it was a bit of work. She never mentioned why she did not want me to give these photos to anyone else. I did have 4 photos from that same shoot published in a paper which I was paid for per photo.. The event was an African-American dance step show featuring area fraternities and sorroties, so I don't think there's a huge market for these photos necessarily. That is, unless, she knows people who would buy them That's kind of what I was thing. Even without a written contract, there should still be recourse (however futile it might be) on my part if I found out she sold these to other people/publications, right? I'm not too concerned, but it's a lesson in law I'd like to learn now for future situations. Thanks for all of your guys'/gals' input and concern. Greatly appreciated. --Joe

[vwjoe76]

Oh, one more thing, I'm supposed to meet her today to do the CD negatives/money exchange. How about a verbal contract, doesn't that hold up well in a law setting? I know a paper contract w/ signatures blows that out of the water, but just curious. I need to get hip about these legalities. Thanks again. --Joe

[sapearl]

Good luck Joe - I hope it goes well with you. I believe that you and I and the rest of the folks here know what the "right thing" is that should happen, but based upon merely verbal agreements, that could be a very tough sell.

At this point I see two options open to you: 1. "throw yourself on the mercy of the court" as it were and appeal to her better nature, explaining how many hours of work went into the effort, etc......taking the high road and hoping for some additional generosity. Kindness and a positive approach is always preferrable.

The alternative - and I don't believe you want to take this route - would be to 2. threaten some sort of legal action.... I don't know what.... but it would certainly get ugly, take up a lot of your time, probably cost a bit in legal fees, and just be plain aggravating for everybody. And then it could get worse from there....:rolleyes:

Nah - I would just chalk it up to experience and make sure you don't repeat it in the future. Just be sure to get everything in writing from now on. Good luck and let us know how it goes. Take care. - Stu

Oh, one more thing, I'm supposed to meet her today to do the CD negatives/money exchange. How about a verbal contract, doesn't that hold up well in a law setting? I know a paper contract w/ signatures blows that out of the water, but just curious. I need to get hip about these legalities. Thanks again. --Joe

[LBaldwin]

Well there are a few issues here at work;
1. As you suspect she is expecting to have the 'images' (all of them including rights) for $150.00
2. She wants them exclusive to her without any other legal issues per her statement.
3. She is aware somewhat of rights issues.
4. She probably wants the images for promotional use for next years dances, that being said $150 is probably on the low end of what this is worth if the images are valuable for that purpose.

If she did not hire you to be there then there is no contract. You need to explain to her that the image rights stay with you, and that she is buying a license to use the images for the stated purposes. It is not too late for a written contract, it is not too late to increase the payment for image usage outside your prior agreement.

A contract is an agreement between two people. Tell her that you are just getting started in this and that you need to make a few changes in the prior agreement.

Now let me smack you on the back of the neck ;-P Raise your right hand - DO IT!

"I swear, in the future, not to give any client a blank CD with all my images on it"

Get photobucket, smugmug or other hosting site and allow them to look and then purchase needed images that way. Control your rights, control your business and most of all control your images.

Good luck with the lady!!

[sapearl]

I like Les's suggestions better than mine :D - That's very well written Les. After having been away from this thread for a while my thoughts are not as well organized as yours. Joe, do what Les says..... and smack yourself in the head for me too.

[LBaldwin]

Trust me my neck gets red at least twice a week and that is not cause I work in the fields...

[blackshadow]

In addition to the fine advice offered by Les above I'd suggest that before you meet with the lady:
1 - put a copyright notice on the CD and a notice that any copying/distribution of the images is not to be done without written permission of the copyright holder

2 - Prepare an invoice to present to the lady, as part of your invoice stipulate exactly what usage rights she has paid for.

[LBaldwin]

In addition to the fine advice offered by Les above I'd suggest that before you meet with the lady:
1 - put a copyright notice on the CD and a notice that any copying/distribution of the images is not to be done without written permission of the copyright holder

2 - Prepare an invoice to present to the lady, as part of your invoice stipulate exactly what usage rights she has paid for.

Spot on, wish I had said that...

[photoguy6405]

Blackshadow beat me to it. I was going to suggest just that as I was reading the last few replies. Put a copyright notice on the CD (the invopice is a nice added back-up), and if she asks about it look wide-eyed and innocent and say something like "Oh, that's standard with any photo purchase. We didn't discuss extraordinary requests or circumstances.".

[vwjoe76]

Thanks everybody, again, for all your input. I've been doing a lot of shooting lately so I haven't been on POTN too much. But I really appreciate your insight into a world that is awfully grey to me. I hear ya, Stu. I don't want to get into any kind of a court situation and since she hasn't done anything wrong to this point, there's no reason I suppose. Like I said, I made over $250 in less than 4 hours between her and freelance newspaper publications. I do not foresee any reason I'd want the photos from this particular shoot for the future, I was just curious about my rights. I think I'm going to print out several copies of an "agreement" that can be handed out and signed to any future people I work for...unless it's a newspaper:evil:...to alleviate any of these concerns. Thanks everybody! --Joe

[LBaldwin]

Yes but what you may not realize is that those images ALL of your images are like cash in the bank. Marketing them is not easy but you never know when one may work for a new or unexplored application, publication, personal promotion or even better as a recurring stock image. You may not have a Pulitzer level image but there are schmucks out their that make cash shooting dogs on white BG with a fish eye!! Go figure.

[vwjoe76]

Yea, your absolutely right, Les. You never know if any of work done may someday get someone's fancy for whatever reason. I just need to learn the business side of things. Up till now my biggest worries were visualizing and preparing for a shoot like that. I just need to print out some consent forms, as a matter of fact I think i have a copy my college PJ professor gave me years ago. I just copy that. --Joe
Yes but what you may not realize is that those images ALL of your images are like cash in the bank. Marketing them is not easy but you never know when one may work for a new or unexplored application, publication, personal promotion or even better as a recurring stock image. You may not have a Pulitzer level image but there are schmucks out their that make cash shooting dogs on white BG with a fish eye!! Go figure.

[Mike R]

Pick up a copy of Business and Legal Forms for Photographers by Tad Crawford.
It is co-published with ASMP. The book has an explanation of each form (31) and all forms are included on a CD in multiple formats. They are easy to edit and print out. I use a duplex printer and they look professional. Two of the forms are License of Rights and License of Electronic Rights

[fotofitness]

Joe,
Can you give us an update on what transpired? Fortunately you are learning this lesson on a small project.
Quite honestly if I were in your shoes I would not turn over the photos until a contract was signed.
99% of my business is thru word of mouth. In many cases I am shooting friends of a friend or shooting an event and the event co-ordinator is a personal friend of mine.

A few have been taken aback at signing a contract and I would have freely walked away from the deal if they did not sign the contract.

If you google photography contracts you will find many templates that can be tailored to your particular situation.