Possible spotmeter purchase, Minolta Spotmeter M

[vfilby]

Hi,

I apologize if this doesn't belong here, I figured only the EOS guys would have something like this.

I have the option to purchase one of these for $100 Canuck money. It looks like a decent deal to me. I know there are issues with the "auto-on" and battery drainage; but, is there anything else I should know?

Thanks in advance,

Vince

[scottbergerphoto]

$100 is very cheap for a spot meter. Before buying any meter used, make sure it is accurate. Make sure the meter can be either checked out first for accuracy prior to purchase or returned after if it is not.
Scott

[vfilby]

Thanks for your reply Scott.

Can you tell me how to cehck the meter for accuracy? I have a friend here is is a pro with all the meters and such, can I just compare readings from both?

I did a basic test where I pointed it at a bright source and a dark one, the readings were obiviously in tune with the extremes.

Thanks again,

[scottbergerphoto]

You can compare the readings to a known functioning meter, send it to Minolta for calibration, or bring it to a camera shop.
Scott

[DaveG]

Hi,

I apologize if this doesn't belong here, I figured only the EOS guys would have something like this.

I have the option to purchase one of these for $100 Canuck money. It looks like a decent deal to me. I know there are issues with the "auto-on" and battery drainage; but, is there anything else I should know?

Thanks in advance,

Vince

I talk about this a lot and I'm sure some people are getting sick of it but here I go again:

A spot meter doesn't do you much, if any, good in digital photography. With film it may have let you predict your exposure more accurately but with digital you don't need to predict, since you can review.

Imagine that you have the spot meter. You select a spot and do a reading. What do you do with that information now? It'd be a read-out of shutterspeed and aperture. Do you use that? Sure why not? Do you take a bunch of spot meter readings and average them out? Sure why not?

Now do you review it with the review and histogram? Well you don't review only if you are a moron. You check the histogram and review, and look to see if the image is over or underexposed and you check for any highlight clipping. Then you make changes to the exposure based on your evaluation of the review. Well your camera's meter will easily get you that close, so once again, why do you have a spot meter?

The other use for spot metering was with the black and white Zone system. You'd use the spot meter and measure a variety of points within the scene. This would give you an objective measure of the scene's contrast. If the scene was very contrasty you could use film processing techniques to lower the contrast, or on a flat day you could increase the development to increase contrast. But with digital you have NO control at all over the "development" so what does this kind of spot meter information do for you? You need to expose for the highlights in any case since if you blow those out you lose.

I read posts from some people who are using spot meters with digital, and they claim that they get better exposures. I just don't understand how. Their spot metering comes down to ONE shutterspeed and ONE aperture, just like the meter in the camera. It may well be a different shutterspeed/aperture combination than the camera's but it also isn't neccessarily any more correct. And of course a bracket series will assure that you cover all bases. By the way if you don't have time for histogram review or a bracket series, it's unlikely that you'll have time to use a spot meter.

Save your cash. A spot meter for digital purposes is a complete waste of money.

[scottbergerphoto]

Anyone not convinced about the utility of using a spot meter should read a book on the Zone System of Photography. I have read Farzad's book on the Simplified Zone System (twice) and it has dramtically changed the way I interpret what my meter tells me. This is not limited to B&W photography. You can use your camera's spot meter or a hand held one. It is an indespensable tool for a photographer to have. Don't believe me. Read the book and try it.
Scott

[vfilby]

I talk about this a lot and I'm sure some people are getting sick of it but here I go again:

A spot meter doesn't do you much, if any, good in digital photography. With film it may have let you predict your exposure more accurately but with digital you don't need to predict, since you can review.

Although your argument is good it doesn't really address my need because I want the meter for film work. I don't both to meter my digital shooting ;-)

[mjordan]

Now do you review it with the review and histogram? Well you don't review only if you are a moron.


While there are a lot of people that haven't learned the benifits of using their histogram if their camera has one, that hardly makes them a "moron". I don't use my histogram for all shots and I know a lot of others that don't either and I know that neither I nor most of those people are "morons".

I have thought about getting a spot meter on several occasions. There are times I have my camera set up on a tripod and aimed where I want it but I want to check the exposure in part of the scene. A good spot meter would give me this ability. But then, since I have shot large and medium format, I already know the benifits of using a handheld meter.

Mike

[vfilby]

I read posts from some people who are using spot meters with digital, and they claim that they get better exposures. I just don't understand how. Their spot metering comes down to ONE shutterspeed and ONE aperture, just like the meter in the camera.

Hmm I just actually read all your post. The meter I was looking at allowed you to set the film ISO and the desired shutter speed. It would then give you an aperture reading or an EV reading.

So it still puts the creativity in your hands.

[DaveG]

I read posts from some people who are using spot meters with digital, and they claim that they get better exposures. I just don't understand how. Their spot metering comes down to ONE shutterspeed and ONE aperture, just like the meter in the camera.

Hmm I just actually read all your post. The meter I was looking at allowed you to set the film ISO and the desired shutter speed. It would then give you an aperture reading or an EV reading.

So it still puts the creativity in your hands.

First let me say that you can certainly change the shutterspeed/aperture combination that the spot meter suggests. You could shoot at 1/125@f8 or 1/250@f5.6, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But you can put only ONE shutterspeed/aperture combination into the camera at one time.

With B&W film and development control, a spot meter and multiple readings would be the first step in letting you do a lot more. That control is missing with digital photography so it doesn't get you any further than your camera's meter.

[DaveG]

Anyone not convinced about the utility of using a spot meter should read a book on the Zone System of Photography. I have read Farzad's book on the Simplified Zone System (twice) and it has dramtically changed the way I interpret what my meter tells me. This is not limited to B&W photography. You can use your camera's spot meter or a hand held one. It is an indespensable tool for a photographer to have. Don't believe me. Read the book and try it.
Scott

I don't get it Scott. If I use the spot meter to read the highlight I just have picked a new place for middle grey and could lose my shadows. If I pick a mid tone I might as well have used an incident meter. If I pick a shadow point and expose for that I could blow out the highlights in all but the flattest lighting. That was digital. With Zone modifying the film processing was easily as important as the original exposure and had to be part of the Zone package shall we say. Just remember that your exposure - whatever you choose - is going to be expressed eventually by one shutterspeed and one aperture combination.

With fillm and the Zone system you could expose right on, overexpose, or underexpose. The you could develop right on (N) or less (N- or N--) or overdevelop (N+ N++). You could use a water bath and try to do some compensating development which would leave the highlights where they are but would bring up the shadows. And you could choose an inherently low contrast developer like Selectol Soft to begin with.

You had this vast control over development in order to make Zone work. And even then it required great amounts of burning and dodging as Zone wasn't even close to being perfect. Ansel Adams, years after he shot it, intensified the top part of Moonrise. What part of Zone is that in? But the bottom line was that Ansel made it work and that was what was important.

So you lose all that development control with digital and you control just aperture/shutterspeed at any given ISO. So explain to me how your spot meter and Zone in digital improves on your camera's meter and histogram?

[DaveG]

I talk about this a lot and I'm sure some people are getting sick of it but here I go again:

A spot meter doesn't do you much, if any, good in digital photography. With film it may have let you predict your exposure more accurately but with digital you don't need to predict, since you can review.

Although your argument is good it doesn't really address my need because I want the meter for film work. I don't both to meter my digital shooting ;-)

Sorry since this is a digital site I just assumed that ...

[DaveG]

Now do you review it with the review and histogram? Well you don't review only if you are a moron.


While there are a lot of people that haven't learned the benifits of using their histogram if their camera has one, that hardly makes them a "moron". I don't use my histogram for all shots and I know a lot of others that don't either and I know that neither I nor most of those people are "morons".

I have thought about getting a spot meter on several occasions. There are times I have my camera set up on a tripod and aimed where I want it but I want to check the exposure in part of the scene. A good spot meter would give me this ability. But then, since I have shot large and medium format, I already know the benifits of using a handheld meter.

Mike

First off to NOT use a perfectly good tool like the histogram is not smart, and learning what it is and how to use it should maybe be a priority. I'd certainly suggest learning how the histogram works BEFORE learning how a spot meter functions, at least these days.

Do I use the histogram for every shot. No I don't. But I do for the first one in a series or if I think the exposure could be tricky. I do apologise for the moron remark, as it was unneccessary.

I see that you have shot large format photography. What's large format digital photography like? I've only shot large format film. Oh maybe that's what you meant. And digital makes a huge difference. Did you do any Zone control with your spot meter? Even soft Zone? ("Hmm, it's contrasty lighting. I think that I'll mark the film holder and maybe reduce my devlopment by 20%.")

That's where a spot meter shines: With film a spot meter is a wonderful and (in the right hands) accurate tool. It will let you estimate the contrast range of a scene in preparation for development modification.

But it has almost no function with digital beyond what your camera's meter and histogram will do for you.

[mjordan]

While the histogram is going to help a lot, once it's use is learned, they are not always correct for a given situation or in creating the image that the photographer is after. It's a good starting point, but not the answer all to all situation. Sometimes underexposing is better for bringing out color or to increase noise to add a artistic touch. Sometimes over exposing is needed to bring out the shadows regardless of the highlights (I meter for shadow detail at some events). The histogram is only going to show you data to the left for underexposed, to the right for over exposed and highlights flashing for blowout highlights. This doesn't tell you if the shot was metered correctly for the shot you are trying for. Taking multiple meter readings (either from the camera or with a hand meter) will let you know what the exposure is going to be for the different parts of the scene. Also, if you are taking multiple digital images to later combine in Photoshop, you are going to want to take multiple meter readings to get the proper exposure in each area of the image.

Just like the histogram, the light meter is a tool. It might not be needed that often with digital, but just like film, it's use hasn't been eliminated yet.

As for digital large format, I've been around people using digital backs on their large format cameras for commercial work but I've never had the pleasure of getting to play with one myself. I'd almost hate to since they cost so much. I'd sure hate to break it.

Mike

[scottbergerphoto]

DaveG,
Your post reflects a lack of understanding on how to use the Zone System to interpret readings obtained with a spot meter. I can use my spot meter on any tone. As long as I know where that tone sits on a Zone System relative to 18% grey, I can properly expose it. This has nothing to do with film processing. It has to do with getting the correct exposure for what I feel is the most important tone in my image. A histogram won't do that for you, especially if your image has a greater dynamic range then your camera's medium (film, slides, digital).

I suggest that rather then contnue to bash using a spot meter, you read some more about why so many people still use them.
Scott

[vfilby]

Upon reading your post above, Scott, I myself spent most of this morning reading up on the Zone system. It is really cool. Although, I really don't have a well calibrated system and I amno expert developer so that part I will not pay much attention to for the time being.

I really like the idea that I can meter something that I want to be pure white and adjust my exposure to make it pure white (down 5 stops I believe). Of couse I am still alittle hazy on the EV business, is each ev a stop? For instance, can I get an ev reading from an image to determine if the all the readings will be within the exposure range?

Man I really want that spot meter now! This stuff is so cool. When you are taking pictures with a histogram (which I have had to do in the past with manual flash settings) things seem so unprofessional. I know a pro photographer who sets up his camera, takes his meter reading, takes the picture and leaves. He takes one maybe two pictures and gets it spot on! That is amazing.

I have just been reading online, but The Negative by Adams himself (is that correct) seems to be highly praised. Which readings would you recommend Scott?

Thanks,

[scottbergerphoto]

I highly reccommend, The Confused Photographers Guide to Photgraphic Exposure and the Simplified Zone System by Farzad.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0966081714/qid=1098637349/sr=8-5/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i5_xgl14/102-7071369-5404155?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
You will never see your meter the same way after reading this book.

Also see this post I made from a prior thread:
Your camera meter is set up to make whatever it sees, black, white and all shades in between, 18% Grey. That is called a "Normal Exposure". Test it out for yourself. Put your camera on P and fill the viewfinder with a black, then white then grey objects. They will all look grey. You need to get to a "Correct Exposure" or what the image should actually look like.
In a simplified Zone System, you use your camera on partial or spot metering to fill the partial/spot metering circle with a major tone(your reference tone) in the subject. A tone that is the most prominent or most important in the image. Take a reading in Manual Mode. Be sure to fill the partial/spot metering circle with that tone. Then adjust your Normal Reading based on the difference between the reference tone you selected and 18% Grey
Black(4.5%)- Dark Grey(9%)- 18%Grey- Light Grey(36%)- White(72%)

From the above, select the tone your reference tone is closest to. Adjust your "Normal Exposure" based on where the reference tone you selected is in relation to 18% Grey. For Black, reduce the exposure by 2 stops, Dark Grey, reduce by 1 stop, etc. In a simplified Zone System, white is two stops from 18% Grey. To get a Correct Exposure for white, you need to open up your aperture or slow your shutter speed by two stops. Each tone listed represents one stop.
The principle is that if one of the major tones in a subject is correctly exposed, the rest will all fall into line.
Scott

[DaveG]

DaveG,
Your post reflects a lack of understanding on how to use the Zone System to interpret readings obtained with a spot meter. I can use my spot meter on any tone. As long as I know where that tone sits on a Zone System relative to 18% grey, I can properly expose it. This has nothing to do with film processing. It has to do with getting the correct exposure for what I feel is the most important tone in my image. A histogram won't do that for you, especially if your image has a greater dynamic range then your camera's medium (film, slides, digital).

I suggest that rather then contnue to bash using a spot meter, you read some more about why so many people still use them.
Scott

With a spot meter in digital you are just deciding whether you want to over/on/under - expose the shot. No more, no less, since you can't adjust the processing to compact or expand the contrast range. I don't care which tone you select to meter you are just centering the whole exposure on that point. If you select a number of points then you just have an averaged meter reading which is certainly no better than your camera's meter.

That I do understand.

[DaveG]

Upon reading your post above, Scott, I myself spent most of this morning reading up on the Zone system. It is really cool. Although, I really don't have a well calibrated system and I amno expert developer so that part I will not pay much attention to for the time being.

I really like the idea that I can meter something that I want to be pure white and adjust my exposure to make it pure white (down 5 stops I believe). Of couse I am still alittle hazy on the EV business, is each ev a stop? For instance, can I get an ev reading from an image to determine if the all the readings will be within the exposure range?

Man I really want that spot meter now! This stuff is so cool. When you are taking pictures with a histogram (which I have had to do in the past with manual flash settings) things seem so unprofessional. I know a pro photographer who sets up his camera, takes his meter reading, takes the picture and leaves. He takes one maybe two pictures and gets it spot on! That is amazing.

I have just been reading online, but The Negative by Adams himself (is that correct) seems to be highly praised. Which readings would you recommend Scott?

Thanks,

Start by getting a 4x5 view camera and plan on using film.

[Belmondo]

Anyone not convinced about the utility of using a spot meter should read a book on the Zone System of Photography. I have read Farzad's book on the Simplified Zone System (twice) and it has dramtically changed the way I interpret what my meter tells me. This is not limited to B&W photography. You can use your camera's spot meter or a hand held one. It is an indespensable tool for a photographer to have. Don't believe me. Read the book and try it.
Scott

At this point, I would say that anyone not completely convinced about the utility of using a spot meter should stick with whatever they're using and not bother with it. An endless debate over whether it's useful or not will never be resolved. This is less a contest of logic than it is of dogma; you either use it and believe in itl, or you don't use it and see no need for it.

We're not arguing religion, for goodness sakes. We're not saving soulds; we're discussing the relative merits of a piece of equimpment.

FWIW, I own 3 spot meters (two Pentax analog and a Pentax digital) and a Sekonic L-558 which has spot capabilities. I find them invaluable in certain applications, and would feel very naked without them in my bag.


And you guys don't want to think about me being naked. Believe me.

[vfilby]

Start by getting a 4x5 view camera and plan on using film.

Hmm... not exactly useful advice unless you want to learn everything by trial and error. If I could I would; however, I am poor.

[vfilby]

FWIW, I own 3 spot meters (two Pentax analog and a Pentax digital) and a Sekonic L-558 which has spot capabilities. I find them invaluable in certain applications, and would feel very naked without them in my bag.

Which would you use more, an ambient/incident light meter or a spot light meter? I am thinking that I might get the meter anyways because they are selling for much more an ebay. I could always sell it.

Vince

[Belmondo]

FWIW, I own 3 spot meters (two Pentax analog and a Pentax digital) and a Sekonic L-558 which has spot capabilities. I find them invaluable in certain applications, and would feel very naked without them in my bag.

Which would you use more, an ambient/incident light meter or a spot light meter? I am thinking that I might get the meter anyways because they are selling for much more an ebay. I could always sell it.

Vince

That question I really can't answer because I do both. The Sekonic allows me to go either way, so I'd have to say it's the most useful of the bunch.

[scottbergerphoto]

Anyone not convinced about the utility of using a spot meter should read a book on the Zone System of Photography. I have read Farzad's book on the Simplified Zone System (twice) and it has dramtically changed the way I interpret what my meter tells me. This is not limited to B&W photography. You can use your camera's spot meter or a hand held one. It is an indespensable tool for a photographer to have. Don't believe me. Read the book and try it.
Scott

At this point, I would say that anyone not completely convinced about the utility of using a spot meter should stick with whatever they're using and not bother with it. An endless debate over whether it's useful or not will never be resolved. This is less a contest of logic than it is of dogma; you either use it and believe in itl, or you don't use it and see no need for it.

We're not arguing religion, for goodness sakes. We're not saving soulds; we're discussing the relative merits of a piece of equimpment.

FWIW, I own 3 spot meters (two Pentax analog and a Pentax digital) and a Sekonic L-558 which has spot capabilities. I find them invaluable in certain applications, and would feel very naked without them in my bag.


And you guys don't want to think about me being naked. Believe me.
Well said!
Scott