580 EX-II not fast enough to freeze action.

[n1as]

Boy, I wish I knew the duration of the flash from my 580 EX-II at full power. I shot basketball last night and expected nice stop-motion shots but I ended up with a lot more blur than I'd have thought possible.

I'm shooting with the background 2 stops down from the flash. My 85 f/1.8 was set to f/4 so DOF was fairly wide.

In this shot, the ball handler is looking up so she's getting a face full of bounce flash. The hand in front of her and the defender behind her are in sharp focus but her face is a bit blurred and her ball hand is quite blurred.

The only conclusion I can form is that the flash duration is less than 1/1000 sec.

[gsgary]

Shutter speed was way too fast, most cameras sync with flash at 1/250, i have the 1d which will sync at 1/500. 1/250 plus flash will freeze the action

[DDCSD]

Too much ambient light. The ambient light is leeching in and causing the blur.

[DDCSD]

Shutter speed was way too fast, most cameras sync with flash at 1/250, i have the 1d which will sync at 1/500. 1/250 plus flash will freeze the action

He shot at 1/250, according to EXIF.

[cosworth]

Since I see no flash shadow (good) this was obviously ceiling bounced and diffused heavily.

This is a good example for having two flashes. You could also have shot in ettl and HSS and bumped to ISO1600 with say 1/500th.

Lots of options here. I'm guessing about 40 foot distance so you have 10 whopping feet of DOF. Good calculation.

[DDCSD]

This is a good example for having two flashes. You could also have shot in ettl and HSS and bumped to ISO1600 with say 1/500th.

HSS is a big no-no for trying to stop action. The flash will emit many short bursts while the shutter is open, which will cause "ghosting" on fast moving subjects.

[AdamLewis]

Since I see no flash shadow (good) this was obviously ceiling bounced and diffused heavily.

This is a good example for having two flashes. You could also have shot in ettl and HSS and bumped to ISO1600 with say 1/500th.

Lots of options here. I'm guessing about 40 foot distance so you have 10 whopping feet of DOF. Good calculation.


You really should never use HSS for sports. If you did, youd just have a bright blurry subject at 1/500 since thats a pretty slow shutter speed for basketball and with HSS youre not using the flash duration to stop action...

[AdamLewis]

The flash duration on the 580 EX is pretty short...

One thing you need to keep in mind is that while you may be two stops over the background, you may not be two stops over ambient, with ambient being the light actually falling on the player. The court is going to be a lot brighter than the stands. You need to be two stops over ambient of the COURT and not two stops over ambient of the BACKGROUND. Two vastly different things.

EDIT: And two stops should really be a minimum. Go more if you can if youre really worried about stopping action. Only downside of this is that the background will get progressively darker and may be a bad thing if thats something you want to see in your pictures.

[n1as]

Yes, the flash was bounced off the ceiling, some 30 or more feet above the gym floor. Flash is working at full power to get me 2 stops above ambient.

If the issue is ambient bleeding in, then we're saying 2 stops isn't enough difference? Maybe I need 3 or 4? Unfortunately, my flash can't do that so either I need a brighter flash or a darker gym :-)

[n1as]

The flash duration on the 580 EX is pretty short...

Even at full power?


One thing you need to keep in mind is that while you may be two stops over the background, you may not be two stops over ambient, with ambient being the light actually falling on the player. The court is going to be a lot brighter than the stands. You need to be two stops over ambient of the COURT and not two stops over ambient of the BACKGROUND. Two vastly different things.

Yes, let me clarify. I usually shoot high ISO and push the histogram to the right. For flash, I set the camera to be 2 stops underexposed compared to that. So instead of ISO 3200, 1/500, f/2, I'm shooting ISO 1600, 1/250, f/4. That's 2 stops less light.

[AdamLewis]

Yes, the flash was bounced off the ceiling, some 30 or more feet above the gym floor. Flash is working at full power to get me 2 stops above ambient.

If the issue is ambient bleeding in, then we're saying 2 stops isn't enough difference? Maybe I need 3 or 4? Unfortunately, my flash can't do that so either I need a brighter flash or a darker gym :-)

Im just saying that if your idea of "ambient" is the background then youre going to have problems stopping motion because the players on the court are a lot brighter than the people in the stands. If you could get someone to stand on the court before the game and get them at least two stops underexposed, that would be a good place to start from.

Is that what youre doing? Or are you going with "ambient" as being the crowd?

[cosworth]

You really should never use HSS for sports. If you did, youd just have a bright blurry subject at 1/500 since thats a pretty slow shutter speed for basketball and with HSS youre not using the flash duration to stop action...

I shoot sports. A lot. I've used HSS. If you know what you're doing you get great results under certain conditions.

Never discourage someone from learning a new technique.

[cosworth]

Bottom line here is that you need faster shutter speed and/or brighter flash. Adjust accordingly.

[AdamLewis]

I shoot sports. A lot. I've used HSS. If you know what you're doing you get great results under certain conditions.

Never discourage someone from learning a new technique.

I know youve been around a while and a lot of people respect you and thats great but Ive got to disagree with you.

You may have used HSS with sports before but you didnt use it to stop action. You werent using your flash as a type of "light shutter" like the OP is trying to do. Using HSS, especially with only 1/500 Tv will just give you bad results. HSS emits a relatively long series of bursts that results in a longer flash duration than a single flash burst. It also lowers flash power which inherently lengthens flash duration on thyristor flash units like the 580 EX. HSS and 1/500 will just give you bright and blurry players since 1/500 is really too slow for all but the most tranquil basketball.

[cosworth]

Of course I didn't use it to freeze action. The higher shutter speed did. You understand the paradox correct?

Above shot:
flash = action stopper
iso/shutter = ambient light

My suggestion:
flash = light
iso/shutter = freeze action

[AdamLewis]

Of course I didn't use it to freeze action. The higher shutter speed did. You understand the paradox correct?

Above shot:
flash = action stopper
iso/shutter = ambient light

My suggestion:
flash = light
iso/shutter = freeze action

Im afraid youre the one that doesnt understand the paradox. 1/500 isnt stopping any basketball unless theyre sleeping.

[n1as]

Im just saying that if your idea of "ambient" is the background then youre going to have problems stopping motion because the players on the court are a lot brighter than the people in the stands.

Yes, by "ambient" meant on the court. The crowd is definitely darker than the court.

AND I found some info ...

580 EX-II flash duration is 1.2 ms or faster. So, assuming full power is 1.2ms, then the flash is 1/833 sec.

[AdamLewis]

Yes, by "ambient" meant on the court. The crowd is definitely darker than the court.

AND I found some info ...

580 EX-II flash duration is 1.2 ms or faster. So, assuming full power is 1.2ms, then the flash is 1/833 sec.

And that is at its lowest output. For flashes like the 580, flash duration goes down as power goes up. Its the reverse on strobe units.
Whatever the case though, 1/833 is more than enough to stop action. I normally shoot at least 1/640, normally 1/800, when I do basketball.

[cosworth]

Im afraid youre the one that doesnt understand the paradox. 1/500 isnt stopping any basketball unless theyre sleeping.

1/500 with HSS flash stops superbikes at the track. It stops people spinning incredibly fast off a trapeze. It stops a bmx rider doing a 720. It stops a ball shot during a indoor ball hockey tournament. It stops basketball easily.

He can try my suggestion or not. You can disagree with me.

[AdamLewis]

1/500 with HSS flash stops superbikes at the track. It stops people spinning incredibly fast off a trapeze. It stops a bmx rider doing a 720. It stops a ball shot during a indoor ball hockey tournament. It stops basketball easily.

He can try my suggestion or not. You can disagree with me.

http://webs.lanset.com/rcochran/flash/hss.html
http://www.flickr.com/groups/digital_sports_photography/discuss/72157603811916878/
http://www.photosig.com/articles/318/article
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=208520

I could really keep doing this all day. You may be using HSS to great effect but for what hes trying to do, its not the solution. If HSS is this holy grail that you seem to believe it is, why are all the professional setups comprised of strobes that dont accommodate HSS?

[dmwierz]

Well, to answer the original question, the duration of the 580 at full power is somewhere around 1/830s. As you reduce the power, the flash duration becomes correspondingly shorter.

Jason if you can make HSS work, fine, but I strongly disagree about using it to shoot action.

Never discourage someone from learning a new technique.

Recommending a beginner use HSS is just asking for the inevitable string of questions like

Why do I have blurry shadows around the edges of the players and the ball?
Why do the colors of my shots change from frame to frame?
Why can't I get my white balance right?
Why are my pictures out of focus?


You could also have shot in ettl and HSS and bumped to ISO1600 with say 1/500th.

Also, ETTL only works accurately when the flash is at least one stop over ambient. ETTL + fill flash just is a recipe for disappointment and unexpected results. If you don't believe me, here's a quote from WIll Crockett, renowned lighting expert and long-time consultant to Sekonic and Gossen:

One of the best TTL tips we can ever give you is the proper ratio / relationship between the illumination value of the flash vs. the illumination of the ambient roomlight. This is crucial to gaining control over exposures with TTL. When you shoot in TTL flash mode, we strongly recommend using the MANUAL exposure mode on the camera, and TTL mode (any flavor is fine like ETTL2 or iTTL795...). But please realize that TTL mode means the camera is blending the TTL controlled flash with the roomlight in a rather delicate balancing act.
The ratio of the flash light to the roomlight is referred to as the "secret formula" for any of our recommended TTL cameras and flashes and is really simple to use and remember: use 2/3 flash + 1/3 roomlight (which is the same thing as keeping the flash 1 stop to 1 1/2 stops brighter than the room light) and TTL will work like a champ.

and:

Fill Flash vs. Flash Dominant
If your flash is brighter than the ambient roomlight, then that is referred to as a "flash dominant" shot and this is where TTL works best. If the flash power is set so the ambient light brighter than your flash - that is referred to as "fill-flash" and TTL stinks at fill flash.
If you want to use TTL for fill flash - don't. : ) If you do, you will be forced to shoot color neg film (with GREAT results!) or will be forced to shoot in RAW mode and patch exposures later. Life is too short for that nonsense on most shots. So if you are looking for fill flash techniques, turn off the TTL and turn on AUTO or MANUAL flash exposure modes? Test it yourself and see.

Only use Flash Dominant lighting for TTL
Let's aim to have the flash to be 1 to 1 /12 stops brighter than the ambient roomlight when we shoot TTL. That can also be thought of as 2/3 flash + 1/3 ambient = TTL success.
BTW, 2/3rds flash and 1/3 ambient is the same as the flash being (roughly) one STOP brighter than the ambient.

This entire article can be read here:
http://www.shootsmarter.com/content/view/175/

To each his or her own, though.

[AdamLewis]

Well, to answer the original question, the duration of the 580 at full power is somewhere around 1/830s. As you reduce the power, the flash duration becomes correspondingly shorter.



I was under the impression that thyristor controlled flashes (like the 580EX) had shorter duration with higher output? And that strobes operate the other way round?

EDIT: Nevermind...I see I read that a little improperly

[AdamLewis]

But for whatever reason, monolights duration goes up and power goes down while pack/head lights have shorter duration at lower power...

So confusing haha

[Zivnuska]

My Cliff Notes:

1. 580 EX-II is fast enough to stop action (1.2 ms)
2. However, in this gym, Full power 580 EX-II is not powerful enough to bounce off ceiling and overpower ambient sufficiently to eliminate blur.
3. If full power flash isn't enough, the weaker HSS won't be either (if bounced).

Solutions:

A. Direct flash instead of bounced
B. Add a speedlight(s)
C. Use more powerful strobes

Is that close to correct?

[n1as]

My Cliff Notes:

1. 580 EX-II is fast enough to stop action (1.2 ms)
2. However, in this gym, Full power 580 EX-II is not powerful enough to bounce off ceiling and overpower ambient sufficiently to eliminate blur.
3. If full power flash isn't enough, the weaker HSS won't be either (if bounced)

I'm thinking this may be part of the puzzle. While I've set my ambient exposure 2 stops darker than normal, my "normal" ambient exposure is about 1 stop over exposed according to the camera's meter. When shooting high ISO, I expose to the right to get as much light to the sensor as possible (trying to control noise). So, stopping down by 2 stops will put the scene about 1 stop below what the meter things is the correct exposure.

Dang, I really wish I had saved the frames I shot where the flash didn't go off.

[George E.]

I was in the same dilema, not enough light. So I bought another used 550EX to double my power. I shot this using one 550EX on camera ETTL bounced with a small catch light card and the second 550EX set for 1/2 power manual shot at the ceiling. I used canon's wireless capability to trigger the second 550. For this shot, I sat at half court with both speedlights and shot these two friends guarding each other almost at the baseline. I was shooting at 85mm so this is a very heavy crop. Not great technique but you can see the two speedlights can light this small gym pretty well. Shot at f2.8, 1/200, ISO 400 with an Xti. I only took a couple shots but the amount of light looks promising.

George

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2377/2303230722_e82eca8a4d_o.jpg

[dmwierz]

Not great technique but you can see the two speedlights can light this small gym pretty well.

Check this article out, about 2 Speedlites lighting a college arena:

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2007/02/on-assignment-speedlighting-college-gym.html

and the Q&A's resulting from this article:

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2007/03/q-speedlighting-gym.html

There are many other stories of 2 speedlite success. Personally, I use my speedlites as a back-up plan if I can't find electricity for my strobes.

BTW, George, be advised ETTL in an environment like this is really iffy. You have to be able to ensure your flash remains at least one stop over ambient and also need to ensure very accurate focusing. I'd suggest changing your flashes to manual control. You can still use the Canon IR link to fire the slave flash (although this is notoriously unreliable).

[George E.]

I saw that article and it looks like that is the best solution with 2 speedlights. The only problem is I'd have to buy some type of wireless trigger and my gym's wall is only 3 feet behind the baseline.

Thanks
George

[warrior6901]

Somebody explain your settings for camera and flash to get the flash 2 stops over ambient.

Thanks.

[George E.]

Just adjust your aperture, shutter, and ISO to get a proper exposure (center histogram) then lower them a total of two stops.

or

Turn you flash off and adjust your aperture, shutter, and ISO until your pictures look really dark (almost not visible) on the LCD preview. You'll be pretty close.

In either case, then adjust your flash to get the exposure you want. If you are bouncing you'd use manual, if you are using some direct flash you'd use ETTL and adjust the FEC.

George

[dmwierz]

Somebody explain your settings for camera and flash to get the flash 2 stops over ambient.

Thanks.

Warrior - I tried to explain this (with pictures even ;)) in the third episode of the podcast here. Maybe this will help:

http://www.sportsphotographycast.com

Dennis

[warrior6901]

Great podcast with information that will be most useful.

I look forward to putting the info into practice.

Thanks again for the help and will mark your sight to check for future information.

[Gatorboy]

I have not had luck with my 580's and bouncing, so I use them direct. I have very good success with them at 1/4 power. Here is a thread from a game I did a few months back:

Lighting BB game with 2 flashes (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=425777)

[dmwierz]

Great podcast with information that will be most useful.

I look forward to putting the info into practice.

Thanks again for the help and will mark your sight to check for future information.


Warrior - you can subscribe via the iTunes Music Store and this will automatically download new episodes as they become available.

[warrior6901]

Marked it. Thanks.

[Red Wings]

Of course I didn't use it to freeze action. The higher shutter speed did. You understand the paradox correct?

Above shot:
flash = action stopper
iso/shutter = ambient light

My suggestion:
flash = light
iso/shutter = freeze action


So to get it correct in my head... :confused:

This is inverse to : EX: An alien bee at 1/2000 will freeze the action with your shutter on 1/250 because the flash is quicker than the shutter..assuming the strobe is stronger than ambient lighting.

[cosworth]

I mean instead of purely stopping action with a flash, relegate flash to supplemental lighting (fill flash) and use ambient to stop action. ISO on digital cameras is adjustable. some people forget that.

The very first shot I would have shot at ISO 1600, stopped down a touch to get 5-7 feet of DOF and used ETTL fill at most likely +1 1/3 FEC off the ceiling. Depends on what colour/texture the ceiling is. I just would have biased more towards ambient.


Bottom line is that the OP thinks the 580 can't freeze a couple girls and their hair. Not the case. It's settings.

[n1as]

Bottom line is that the OP thinks the 580 can't freeze a couple girls and their hair. Not the case. It's settings.

Well, as a matter of fact, I decided to try your silly idea of using high speed sync. Ya know what? I think it will work :-)

I'm thinking rather than using the flash for all the light and bouncing, I could shoot direct and use the flash to just fill in the shadows and to compensate for when the overhead lights happen to be in a dark part of their (normal) cycle.

So, maybe set the flash to be equal to ambient? Set the flash for HSS and the shutter to something to stop the action. Adjust ISO to get a usable aperture and away we go. The only other piece would be some color gel in front of the flash to make it match (more closely) the ambient light color.

I still think it would be better if I had another stop of output and could just bounce and overpower the house lights, but not having that, the HSS / direct approach might be the next best thing.

Of course if I just shot direct flash then I'd get the extra light I need to overpower the house lights but I've done that and I hate the look of them. HSS holds the promise of using the flash as a fill device rather than the "crushing main light".

I have a basketball tournament at the end of March.