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Sisters_photography
4th of March 2008 (Tue), 12:09
I have a question
I have been photographing for this cheer gym for years now and the other day the owner comes up to me and says we need to set up something so that the gym get 20% of a kick back from what I sell to the cheer parents and this is after she has already set me up to do the DVD for the end of the year party.

So here we are at the end of the season and now she wants 20% of what I sell. However i make my prices so cheep for the gym to start with and I give the owner free pictures to use for news papers and marketing. can someone please advise my on what I should do. now here is the touchy part my niece cheers for this gym and I don't want them to be harder on her due to things with me and the owner.

So here is what I am thinking I can finish this cheer year the way she wants it ( the year ends 03/29/08) and next year do this I can offer her 10% of my sales to the gym and since I go to all of the computations and give her pictures for marketing and to put up in her gym then the DVD that i am going to sale at banquet I don't feel she needs any of that, or should I do at least 7% of the sales from the DVD.

Can someone please advise me on this sticky situation.

thank you in advance for you help
Thanks
Sisters'

Fenster
4th of March 2008 (Tue), 12:22
Paragraphs!

XTshooter
4th of March 2008 (Tue), 12:22
Kickbacks are pretty typical for us. Did she ask for a percentage of the DVD sales as well, or just the photographs? I certainly wouldn't offer to give her a percentage of the DVD if she's not asking for it. Maybe consider telling her that you are happy to give a percentage back, but that you'd have to raise your prices a bit to accomodate that.

photoguy6405
4th of March 2008 (Tue), 12:48
I don't think it's unreasonable to say you'd be willing to work out an arrangement like she wants for next year as your prices and expenses are already set for this year based on the existing agreement.

But... I don't always have much faith in people in their position refraining from being petty, and could see my kid getting the short end of the stick as retribution. That's not unheard of in kid's activities at all.

Stickman
4th of March 2008 (Tue), 12:56
However i make my prices so cheep for the gym to start with and I give the owner free pictures to use for news papers and marketing.

As long as you are going to have to rework the way you do business, cut out the above freebies to the gym and go for the straight price they want. They can buy the rights for any picture use from now on.

Its hard making adjustments when you have been working with a place for a long time, but as long as they feel comfortable coming to you to get a bigger piece, you need to be comfortable coming back for your end as well.

bildeb0rg
4th of March 2008 (Tue), 13:32
One of the clubs I've shot for over the last year threw a similar bomb at me recently.
I collapsed the on line galleries, phoned the people with ouitstanding reprint orders and cancelled them, took the images down in the clubhouse, and issued a c and d to the local paper regarding anytthing I'd submitted, including that weeks game.
He was removed from his position on the club comittee.
Tell them you're sorry, but you can't shoot for them anymore. I don't think you'll miss more than one practice session.

photoguy6405
4th of March 2008 (Tue), 14:36
As long as you are going to have to rework the way you do business, cut out the above freebies to the gym and go for the straight price they want. They can buy the rights for any picture use from now on.

They'll even get a 20% discount... in the form of their kick-back. :lol:

Sisters_photography
4th of March 2008 (Tue), 15:29
Paragraphs!


I fixed it :oops:

Sisters_photography
4th of March 2008 (Tue), 15:31
I don't think it's unreasonable to say you'd be willing to work out an arrangement like she wants for next year as your prices and expenses are already set for this year based on the existing agreement.

But... I don't always have much faith in people in their position refraining from being petty, and could see my kid getting the short end of the stick as retribution. That's not unheard of in kid's activities at all.

I agree with you thats why I feel I'm stuck in a rock and a hard place.

Sisters_photography
4th of March 2008 (Tue), 15:32
Kickbacks are pretty typical for us. Did she ask for a percentage of the DVD sales as well, or just the photographs? I certainly wouldn't offer to give her a percentage of the DVD if she's not asking for it. Maybe consider telling her that you are happy to give a percentage back, but that you'd have to raise your prices a bit to accomodate that.

She did ask for 20% of all my sale to her parents.

What do you think is a seasonable kick back.

photoguy6405
4th of March 2008 (Tue), 15:48
She did ask for 20% of all my sale to her parents.

What do you think is a seasonable kick back.

She may be shooting herself in the foot, too. Would the increased prices to cover this kick back be enough to cause people to NOT buy the photos?

Sisters_photography
4th of March 2008 (Tue), 16:05
She may be shooting herself in the foot, too. Would the increased prices to cover this kick back be enough to cause people to NOT buy the photos?


more than likely. I am almost giving my work away as is. I have no problem doing something for the gym but if she wanted this she should have talked to me about it at the beginning of the season not at the end after all the heard work was done.

sspellman
4th of March 2008 (Tue), 16:52
I would start by saying that there will be no changes in pricing until the end of the season. For next year, tell the gym that you would be happy to provide them a 20% commision if they will either pay regular market rates for the free marketing pictures you provide, or increase the prices of all your products by 20%-which would they prefer?

While I understand that your niece is in the picture, you simply have to approach this as a business negociation.

-Scott

texasreddirt
4th of March 2008 (Tue), 17:29
You need to make them aware that you are already doing it for cheap. And remind them they are already getting something from you for free (marketing pics ect)

djscrib
4th of March 2008 (Tue), 22:48
How replacable are you is the question I would ask. Also did they truly use the word kickback?

Is the following a plausible scenario...

Some other photographer has approached the owner and said they'd like exclusive rights to do the cheer photos for the gym, and in exchange they'll split 20% of the gross sales in exchange for those rights. The owner has come to you to try striking a similar deal before going with the other photographer.

If your pictures are being sold to parents of kids who are already using the gym, that would not seem to be the best marketing opportunity. So that may not hold much value. Additionally, small gyms generally don't have a marketing plan where high quality photos make much difference. So I wouldn't overestimate the marketing value.

Lastly if you're not willing to walk away from the gym, and need this gig, and are afraid he'll kick you to the curb if you don't accept the deal, try to spin it a bit.

Say you've been thinking something along the same lines, where you'd split 20% of your revenue with the gym in exchange for exclusive shooting rights, and the gym providing some marketing for the photos (banners/posters advertising your website) with the goal to increase your sales and hence his 20%. Take the deal and spin it into a positive that generates more income.

amfoto1
5th of March 2008 (Wed), 18:18
Hah, I'd say "See ya later, best of luck."!

If your work has impressed them enough to buy some prints, the clientèle will soon be asking where you are and your phone will suddenly ring.

You should have a written agreement with the gym owner giving you permission to shoot on their private property and spelling out all the terms exactly.

Actually, you are providing and added value service to their customers, at no additional cost to them. There is another business model where a photographer is hired with a guarantee against sales, just for example let's say it's $500. What that means is the person you have contracted with is guaranteeing your sales, up to that amount. They give you a retainer, in essence, of $500. Then the first $500 in sales of prints from the event go to them, anything over goes to you. If it falls short, you keep the difference.

Usually the guarantee would be calculated based upon your hourly or day rate.

You should also be getting signed modeling releases, particularly if the gym owner is using some of the photos in any form of promotion, advertising and marketing.

snails
6th of March 2008 (Thu), 11:30
One of the clubs I've shot for over the last year threw a similar bomb at me recently.
I collapsed the on line galleries, phoned the people with ouitstanding reprint orders and cancelled them, took the images down in the clubhouse, and issued a c and d to the local paper regarding anytthing I'd submitted, including that weeks game.
He was removed from his position on the club comittee.
Tell them you're sorry, but you can't shoot for them anymore. I don't think you'll miss more than one practice session.

I'd have to second this. You are already providing a sybiotic service to the gym, for them to start asking for more at your already "nearly free" rates is asking too much.