Playing favorites

[timmyquest]

I was hoping after i got a soccer picture in last weeks paper that they'd at least give my football pictures a look. After seeing what they ran it's obvious they have not.

It was a good picture, sharp, full of action and all that jazz but it really had nothing to do with the game or the story.

It was a picture of our TE running with the football and the oponent chasing him. The real story of the game was the 200+ yards and 3TD's of our runningback. It wouldnt bother me at all had they used one of her photos (the lady that usually does the football pics for them) of the RB. But they didn't (which makes me think she didnt have one).

I sent them litterally 10 pictures of our RB running away from (in some cases) falling down defenders.

My question is this: After a photographer has established them selves as the "go to guy" what does it take for someone else (me) to get in on that action.

Maybe my opinion is biased ( :-) ) but these three photos would have fit much better with the retelling of the game.

http://www.questphotos.com/football/game9/1.jpg


http://www.questphotos.com/football/game9/9.jpg

http://www.questphotos.com/football/game9/8.jpg

[defordphoto]

My question is this: After a photographer has established them selves as the "go to guy" what does it take for someone else (me) to get in on that action.

Death.

[timmyquest]

My question is this: After a photographer has established them selves as the "go to guy" what does it take for someone else (me) to get in on that action.

Death.

lol

...i'm laughing but i dont sense any sarcasim there :?

[JK]

ROTFLMAO! :D

Thanks Jim... I just squirted tea out of my nose...

[defordphoto]

Sorry JK. :) Timmy: No sarcasm at all.

[vfilby]

Hey Timmy,

Death is right! Let me vent (I probably have already but if not hree I go):

I submitted some shots to a local news office after they lost their photographer, so did one other guy. Let me list what I consider out qualifications...

Me: Decent cameras, some accesories, knowledge of how to use them, an existing portfolio, etc.

Him: No camera and a penchant for coming in daily to beg for a job.

He got the job and I did not; which is fine because I didn't really want to be hired, I wanted freelance. So now they hired this goon and I find his photos to be offensive to the term photography. Bad posing, horrible flash use (flattened look with glare on everything in the photo), B&W where 80% of the photo is pure black, etc.

Why did they hire him over me? Favourites!!! And we both applied at the same time. I demonstrated quality while he came in daily to talk to the boss and ask for a job. Well once he had the job he stopped coming in, disconnected his phone and pretended he didn't have email He has now quit and they want to hire me.... all I can say is two small words. I'll let you guys play hangman over it.

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Cheers,

Vince

[timmyquest]

UGGGG, i never thought this would be considered a dilema!

I got a call from the paper today, they want me to go shoot the other highschools game this friday. It's playoff time...

I really would rather go to my game, but i want to get in the paper again of course and...oh noooo

[defordphoto]

PJ's do not get to shoot their fave sport/team/entity. You get assigned, (period) and shoot what you're told to shoot. Not up for discussion, if you'd like your paycheck this week.

Shooting PJ is akin to boiler-plate, sweat-shop production.

[timmyquest]

PJ's do not get to shoot their fave sport/team/entity. You get assigned, (period) and shoot what you're told to shoot. Not up for discussion, if you'd like your paycheck this week.

Shooting PJ is akin to boiler-plate, sweat-shop production.

I've made a commitment to the other team though...i'll do whats right.

[defordphoto]

That's why I like to shoot freelance.

[timmyquest]

That's why I like to shoot freelance.

Really i kind of am. I already told them i'm very busy with two other jobs and school. They know that.

The message on the machine said "I was wondering if you could make it" blah blha blah "Let me know".

I just dont want them to feel like they cant call me for photos, but i feel the need finish the rest of the football season with my old teamates.

The coach came up to me last week before the game, put his arm around me and said "Tim i just wanted to thank you for taking pictures this season, it really means a lot to us".

That really felt good, i've been there since the first day of practice and i fully intend on being there until the last tear has left the field. Hopefully that'll be sometime in November, but i dont think it's going to be.

My goal with getting in the paper has never really been about making money, thats why i go make pizza i make a heck of a lot more doing that belive it or not.

And actually i got a call today from the wrestling coach who heard from the football coach that i take pictures, i'm making a cool $50 to go take a quick picture of some former teamates and the coach sitting on some bikes at the local harley dearlship.

This is all moving so fast, much faster then i ever expected and maybe more then i wanted. None the less, i'm happy.

[gmen]

Interesting thread guys. I'm hoping I can add a little to the mix. I can certainly understand the some of the frustrations here... so I'll just add my two pennies worth.

I'm a freelance photographer - but I've been regularly contributing to two weekly local newspapers for the last two years - they usually run between 6-8 of my photos each week of sporting events in Essex.

The papers both have staff photographers and use a pool of freelancers. The only way I managed to build my reputation was through being pro-active, professional and by building a relationship with the two sports editors in question.

I think the key word here is 'news' - with local papers in particular, it's not always the very best shot that gets published, it's the shot that fits in with the story - better still, it's the news-worthy shot that becomes the headline for the story.

Also, if I submitted as many as 10 similar photos to my editor, I'd get roasted. He simply doesn't have time to browse through that many shots of the average event. If they are going to use 2 shots from a game, I submit 5 or 6 pictures of diverse action with FULL CAPTIONS in the IPTC data. It helps the editors to have good captions as that again saves them time when putting the paper together. It also means that your images are searchable when held on file and can be used as 'stock' pictures at a later date - i.e. more potential revenue.

It's right to say that local paper photogs get assigned to events. However, if you're proactive, you can (to an extent) pick and choose the events you want to cover. I e-mail in a possible schedule for the following weekend every Monday morning based on my location, teams I regularly cover and try to include a diverse range of sports... Again this saves the editor some work and more often than not, my schedule is accepted. Bear in mind also that the staff photogs would like to have the weekend off - so a pro-active freelancer can be a good thing - as long as the paper has a reasonable budget.

I started off wanting to cover my local team but as soon as I broadened my horizons a little, it opened up a good market for me.The more venues and sports you can cover, the more business cards you can hand out, the more people that see your face, the more opportunities there are to sell those other shots that the paper doesn't use. And, like I said above, those other shots are likely to be your 'better' ones!

If you take a look at my website www.tgsphoto.co.uk you can get an idea of the kind of events I've been covering recently.

The key point is to keep plugging away, the opportunities will come - don't submit too many shots, caption them well, think 'news' and be proactive.

Good luck!

[timmyquest]

Also, if I submitted as many as 10 similar photos to my editor, I'd get roasted. He simply doesn't have time to browse through that many shots of the average event. If they are going to use 2 shots from a game, I submit 5 or 6 pictures of diverse action with FULL CAPTIONS in the IPTC data.

What if the only thing that happened in the game was our team running the ball play after play.

It is a local paper, even when we lose they will not run a photo of the other team as the subject.

[gmen]

What if the only thing that happened in the game was our team running the ball play after play.

It is a local paper, even when we lose they will not run a photo of the other team as the subject.

I won't pretend to be an expert on American Football since I usually shoot our round-ball version of the game! My point was just that if I ended up with 10 similar photos, I'd only submit a couple of them.

Obviously the local paper will always want the local team to be the main subject of the pictures (win or lose)... and, during 60 mins, 80 mins or 90 mins of a game, there's usually plenty of time to shoot several different players in different types of action. OK - not always - but most times! Sometimes, if I'm covering 3 or 4 fixtures in a day, I only get 30 minutes or so at each venue to get some worthwhile images - and I won't deny that can be tricky.

Stay positive and keep shooting, they'll need you sooner than later!

[CyberDyneSystems]

Seems to me like your setting yourself up to loose out on this one.

Your Coach isn't going to be getting you many more freelance news jobs.. its the Paper that has potential for your future photography, if in fact you are really interested in it.

Your looking at a lot of opportunity with disdaine IMHO..

Take for example this thread.

Even when you ask a question here on the forum.. if you don't seem to agree 100% with the repsonse.. no matter how well thought out it is and no matter what expeerience is brought to the table.. rather than except the expeirience for what it is.. there is allways a further disclaimer/excuse/explanation.

You give the impression that the answers are never valid to you..
Gmen's point re: the number of photos one should submit, and how,.. this is some of the best pro journalism advice I have seen on this forum. In fact that post should be printed and framed.

You pretty much dismiss it with the excuse that it is simply a "local paper".. "nothing really happened in the game" .. etc..

Sounds a lot like "He's just a frail old man"
Why allways the disclaimers?

You asked for opinions on what you should do. The Pros have chimed in saying what they think is the correct path,.

...you are going to stick with the coach though.

It's not that I think you should do what people tell you.. but that it seems that you never had the intention of listening to the reponse anyways.. again with Gmen's post.. you simply could NOT possibly get a better thought out more informative post on the subject at hand...

This is a missed opportunity.
This MAY be the last time your paper ever calls. (sure you may get a second chance but who knows)

And not being willing to learn from the likes of the poeple that are taking time to respond to your questions is a missed opportunity as well.

I am often left wondering why you ask in the first place?

Sorry,. just my view on it.
CDS

P.S.

Why not shoot half of each game if they are the same day?

[timmyquest]

For starters, I’ve talked to many people since the start of this thread; they too have swayed my opinion.

I guess that would be my "latest excuse"

All I meant by the "local paper" statement was that they do not accept images of the other team, I’ve asked them about this. I wasn’t debating the fact that I sent 10 images. This isn’t the first time I’ve heard this advice, what I’m debating is the content of the images. We won the game because we ran the ball 75% of the game. That’s what the story was, that’s the story I captured, that’s the story I sent to them. They chose not to use it...that’s fine

This MAY be the last time your paper ever calls. (Sure you may get a second chance but who knows)


If it is then that is fine by me. When i "got the job" i told them i'm not always available. I made a commitment to the players, parents and coaches and I think it would hurt me more in the long run to break that promise then to go to the other game.

Again, after talking with some other friends this is the conclusion i've reached.

If they aren’t going to call me again because I can’t make one game then that is their loss and less mine. Yes I’d love to work for a paper as a photographer, there is no doubt about it. But on my list of important things to have in my life...this is actually far on the bottom.

I've gained a lot from this thread CDS, and to me that is all that matters. I'm sorry if you can’t gain as much from it as me, but then...it is my question right?

I've learned that it isn’t smart to send too many photos
I've learned that even if there is only one story diversity is good
I've learned not to get my hopes up about edging out a long time photographer from their long time position
And the biggest thing I’ve learned is that sometimes you have to sacrifice in order to maintain pride.

I take pride in the fact that these guys can rely on me. I take pride in the fact that they are thankful i spend my Friday nights there.

I was talking to the running back in question last night and i told him of my situation.

He asked, "So which game are you going to"

"Yours" I said.

To this he replied in a very surprised and upbeat voice "Oh really? Cool..."

I told him, and this is the truth, "If you guys win, i want to be there. If you guys lose, i want to be there".

As I’ve said on this website before many of these kids were my teammates last year. If you've never played football then maybe I can’t ever explain the bonds that form. I've been to every game this season; I went to many of the practices. I care very much what happens to these guys and in the end I concluded that it would be nothing but selfish to go take photos of another game simply to get a bi-line and some cash.

Again, I’m sorry if you can’t see what I get out of these threads, but I do and that’s all that matters in my opinion.

[timmyquest]

P.S.

Why not shoot half of each game if they are the same day?

That has crossed my mind and i may still do it but i'm not sure if time will permit.

The other game is just down the street where as the game i'd like to go to is 45 mins away. If i left at half time i'd get there around the 4th quarter.

[timmyquest]

I didnt really think there would be any more replies to this thread.

I just got home from the game.

I'm exhausted from stress alone, no amount of money or personal pride can ever take away the memories that were left on that field tonight.

It was a hell of a game, the best i've ever seen perhaps.

We lost, and had i not been there i would have been kicking myself for the rest of my photgraphic life.

Check that...as a football fan, and alumni, i would have kicked myself for the rest of my life.

[neil_r]

CDS ..... QED :D

N

[neil_r]

As I’ve said on this website before many of these kids were my teammates last year. If you've never played football then maybe I can’t ever explain the bonds that form. I've been to every game this season; I went to many of the practices. I care very much what happens to these guys and in the end I concluded that it would be nothing but selfish to go take photos of another game simply to get a bi-line and some cash.

Very laudable sentiments, however if this is the case then perhaps this post should have been in the General Chat, or Share Photographs forum.

There are loads of things I would rather do than go to work 8)
N

[gmen]

Same here Neil!

[GenEOS]

Timmy,

I will be honest here. If you come in and start blowing the established photog out of the water with quality and trying to suggest what they should be interested in, you won't get far. Staff or established photogs get really defensive about new guys taking over and taking money out of their pockets.

Editors will always choose the photo you don't think is THE one. Then if they do pick the one you like, they will hack it to death cropping.

My suggestion would be to use the old catch flys with honey and not vinigar technique. Take the assignments they give you and shoot to the best of your ablility. Don't worry about the other guy. Edit the work you turn in. Crop tightly and make sure your images pop.

You want to give them choices in images, but don't submit too many. I would say 4-6 action shots with your best up front is enough...then throw in some art shots on the end.

If you get into the inner circle, they will use you equally and share assignments. He is in, and you are not. So you have to play the game.

If you want to shoot "your" team, shoot the assignment team for a half and haul ass back to the game you are interested in for the second half.

[timmyquest]

Well, my intention is never to take money away from someone. And at 25 for 1 and $10 more for each one after...it's obviously not about the money.

They've got my number, i've got a camera, if they need something i'll be there.

The fantastic thing about this is that there are two highschools in my town and from what it looks like only two real photographers.

Me, and Her.

I dont care what team i shoot anymore, obviously it's fun to shoot your friends but the football thing was differnt and was the last time it'll ever be that way. (i guess i should wait until next year ot make that assumption).

[NILOLIGIST]

My two cents worth...

I am glad to see that you are thoughtful and have feelings and you really care but there is little are no room for that in the professional business of photography.

I was in a similar situation a while ago. I was shooting a football team (favor for them) and had an opportunity to get in on the ground floor of some dancers that could lead to money and much more exposure. When I spoke with the coach and got the schedule and saw that there would be a conflict. I wrestled with it for a while then I thought to myself do I want to be a professional photographer or be someone doing favors. When you reached that point, you won't have to ask that question.

I told that coach that something came up and I would not be able to shoot all of their games, I would do the one that I can. He said I completely understand and come down when you can and the best of luck to you.

The coach understands that is why he was so surprised when you told him that you would be coming to the game....

Charity or being nice is fine, it is much better when you have something to give. If you become a FAMOUS photographer and you donate your time it will really count.

If this is a business to you, the decision is a easy one to make because it is based on business not feelings.

Just my two cents worth.

NiL,

[timmyquest]

Weee!

Just got a call from the paper, gotta go to the basketball game tonight.

I'll miss some of my spainish class though...OH NO!!!!

(yeah right)

[vfilby]

Enjoy Timmy. It is a great satisfaction to know that yoru gear is paying for itself.