Who was it that told me not to start shooting weddings

[dsze]

:wink: You were right. I loved the experience, until now. 4 months later, I am wishing that I'd never, ever even thought about shooting a wedding. The bride & groom, whom I am related to, have asked me for the negatives/digital files (for free) many, many times now since the wedding. I told them informally in person, in email and formally in contract that I do not give or sell them. So, last night I'd had enough and pointed back to the contract. Then she got VERY VERY nasty with me and accused me of taking it too business-like and not family-like. So, I'm stuck. I'll give her the digital files, but she is refusing them now and is still very nasty with me. BTW, I did this wedding for a measly $250 and I gave her 320 GOOD proofs.

Am I just being unreasonable here? I feel terrible that this has happened, but I don't think I did anything wrong.

Worse yet, I'm meeting with this Bride's mother tomorrow morning to consult with her about shooting her wedding in 3 weeks. What should I do? I don't want to do it to be honest. But I really can't back out with 3-weeks to go. Well, I should clarify, I do want to shoot it, but I am worried about the same thing happening again.

I've learned this lesson the hard way... don't do paid shoots for family.

ahhh...sigh. :?

-daniel

[Tom W]

Doing business with family members should be looked at as a non-profit venture. Go in knowing that you're working for good will rather than as a business agent. You can charge a token fee, but you're not going to make your usual amount. But, you'll gain other benefits that only family can provide. I can't see it working any other way.

I'd give up some of those RAW/negatives (but not all) to the relatives to pacify them. You've got to keep the peace in the family. I would also shoot the Bride's mother's wedding, but I'd do it on the cheap, taking fewer shots and spending some of the time enjoying the wedding.

[dsze]

Good Advice.... Thank you.

-daniel

[Conk]

I'd also be inclined to give the files to her. Not that big a deal unless you planned on selling her more prints in the future. By the sounds of things, it's not too likely you will.
My last wedding was done for a Friend. I gave them a copy of the original files, untouched. I just asked that I be able to use the files as I see fit for my future gain. Advertisement etc.

[IndyJeff]

Daniel my advice would be to call the bride and tell her she was right, you were looking at this as too much of a business deal and would like to give her the files. She obviously knew in advance that she planned on paying you the $250 and then get all the images printed herself, saving her self quite a bit of money. I can see this dividing the family into 2 camps, one she should be ashamed for asking you for the files and the other that you are some kind of a prick for wanting to make money off your relatives wedding.
Do the mothers wedding and collect the shooting fee, give her the images and from now on when someone asks if you will shoot their wedding, and they are related to you, just tell them that you would rather they get someone who is more experienced to do it. It is not your forte.

At this point you have made $250 for shooting the wedding and processing the images, and more on the way for momma's wedding. Cut your losses and maybe someone else in the family will tell the first bride she should be ashamed of herself for asking you for the files and only paying you $250 to shoot the wedding when she knew damn well that if she hired a wedding pro it would have cost her 10 times that amount.

For everybody else reading this, learn from it. You can lose a friend on a business deal and you don't have to deal with them for the rest of your life but family will always be around.

I have done 2 weddings for friends, I knew going in that I was doing it as a favor instead of buying a toaster and there was no money involved. One did offer to pay me once they saw what they got but, I refused saying that our deal was no money would change hands and once I make a deal I stand by it.

[dsze]

Thanks Jeff, Good advice. I have told her that she is right and I asked her forgiveness. I am sending her the CD's with the final, processed JPG's. I'll shoot her mother's wedding, and offer her the files after her first $50 in prints, because the daughter ordered about that in prints from me during the course of me refusing to give her the files. Fair? What do you think?

thanks,
daniel

[defordphoto]

Moral to the story: Never do business with family. You either do it for free, or not at all.

[dsze]

Exactly. Free or not at all.....

But what about this next situation I'm in. I can't very well tell this mother that I'm going to do hers free or not at all. Yeah, I can imagine her daughter finding out I did it for free! :shock:

-daniel

[defordphoto]

Yeah, obviously. Make it comparable.

[pradeep1]

Same applies for friends. Do it for goodwill, or don't do it.

[dsze]

Yes, I totally lost money. On top of the 320 for $250, I only charged pennies for prints. I did this because she was family. I made a mistake. Now, I have to do her mother's which I hope won't be quite as big a mistake, but no more family after this. If I ever think about it again, I expect you guys to hold me to this statement! :)

-daniel

[ChrisN]

Would it not be unreasonable to put a Copyright logo on the images before you send them to the Bride and Groom? Then she has to come back to you for prints.

Many if not all photo places will not process images with a copyright logo on them unless the printer can prove it belongs to them.
Or make them a lower "online" quality to show off on the screen but not in print?

or am I being too naive :oops:

[dsze]

...I've thought about all that, but its to the point where I really just don't care anymore. They'll get their full-size, processed files and hopefully I won't have to deal with them for a long time to come.. :)

-daniel

[timmyquest]

I dont know if it was me or not, but i'll never do weddings.

One of those life lessons i picked up from my father.

[defordphoto]

...I've thought about all that, but its to the point where I really just don't care anymore. They'll get their full-size, processed files and hopefully I won't have to deal with them for a long time to come.. :)

-daniel

You're not on their Christmas list? Not doing Turkey Day at their house?

;)

The VERY few weddings I have done were for free. They only paid for film (see how long ago that was?) and processing. I just shot it, they got everything else. Down and dirty, here's your negatives. Have fun. Seeya. Bye bye.

[dsze]

...RFM, sounds like the way to do it...with family at least. I told her mother that I'd give her the unprocessed jpgs on CD as soon as she ordered $50 worth of prints. She was fine with that. Only issue I am slightly nervous about is that this daughter will be in her mother's wedding party. Oh well. :)

-daniel

[AzzKicker]

Moral to the story: Never do business with family. You either do it for free, or not at all.


That is SO TRUE!!!!!


I shot 2 weddings and 1 graduation for FAMILY. And I DID all 3 for FREE, BUT!!! After showing the results and giving them the CD's with some pictures they "donated" money to me and my hobby. I NEVER charge family up front, whatever they give me after is fine.

[dsze]

I agree...I should have done it free or not at all....but I wanted to help cover some of my costs and my time. I mean, processing 500 RAW files and getting print orders, etc, etc., takes ALOT of time! Oh well....I've learned my lesson.

-daniel

[Harry Settle]

Normally I do family stuff for free. I have been asked to photo my nephew's wedding next year, and I have told them that I am donating the wedding book (and photos) to the bride and groom. Anyone else wanting copies will be charged full price.

[dsze]

....and so what if your nephew comes asking for the digital files, over and over and over. What will be your response?

-daniel

[davidwegs]

My approach is;

C = customer and charges
F = family, friends and FREE!

Regards.

[dsze]

I agree, but then how do you politely tell a family/friend that you can't do their event (if you don't have time to be doing everyone's events for free). I suppose, just tell them that you don't have time, but then I see the same kind of thing happening. "he did her wedding, but now he doesn't have time to do mine".... kind of thing. So, thats why I decided to charge a minimal fee ($250).... but I didn't count on giving away the negatives and I made that clear up front...but they still believed that because they were family, they should get the negatives anyway.

Oh well...sometimes you just can't win no matter what you do. Probably best to just not do family, period.

-daniel

[davidwegs]

If you won't give up the negs/files, don't shoot it and just tell them you have had a very bad experience that has left you shy.

When I say FREE, I do mean free, totally, including all printing, negs and time.

If not, then I charge full going rate. Its a matter of personal approach, but for me there is no "middle ground" in that scenario.

[Agaric]

You should still shoot the mothers wedding. Lets face it practice makes perfect and you just learned an expensive lesson. Tell the mother that all that nice equipment is expensive and you would gladly do it for a smaller fee than normal. Ask her what she expects and have her tell you what she feels comfortable paying (because she is family and you don't want to do that contract thing w/ family again- save that for paying customers) Also the mother and daughter KNOW how much a professional cost that is why they came to you. Hopefully she will be more mature about it and offer you a decent amount. As for the daughters pics/negs/files I would hand them over and write them off as a business loss at the end of the year :wink: This way everyone wins. There is a ton of money to be made in weddings, most photographers I know have to turn away work and can charge an arm and a leg for thier time. You have to due your time first, don't give up and best of luck to you.

[dsze]

Thanks for all the replies.... I have sent them the negs with their final print order and blown it off.... I've met with the mother and am excited again about shooting weddings. I have decided that there will be no more family after this though. Family is family....not business and I can't exactly do anyone's for free after this. So, no more family weddings.

-daniel

[Seveneer]

I was very interested to read this. I have been told to expect to be asked to shoot a wedding for a friend of my other half in April next year. I'll be sure to make sure this issue is discussed beforehand. I intend to make it quite clear what they will and will not get although they're not family though so it's not quite as difficult.

I know you've already sorted it but if it was me I'd have been inclined to send them the RAW files and see what they do with those. Either they'll buy some software and produce the jpegs themselves (and understand the work that goes into it) or they'll come to you asking for your help in which case you're back in charge of the situation.

Famililes....who'd have 'em?

Phil.

[dsze]

Yes, Phil...just be very clear & upfront..... but I even thought I did that with this situation...appearantly I wasn't quite as blunt as I should have been! :) I would decide beforehand though, whether you intend to make any money, just cover your costs or do it as a gift and be upfront about that too.

-daniel

[Seveneer]

Hi Daniel,

blunt and up front seems to come easily and always has :wink:

/Phil.

[Jon, The Elder]

Thanks everybody. I figure I saved at least $250-$1000.00 just reading this thread.

Now I can buy that 70/200 L.

[dsze]

LOl.... sounds like reasonable justification to go buy the 70-200 to me!

Actually, with the prints they ordered and the many additional paid (non-family) shoots that generated from people seeing the photos from this wedding, I can't say that it was a financial loss. It was an emotional drain though.

-daniel

[flyfisher]

Whenever I shoot a weding for family or good friends I give them everything as a weding present . I also have them sign realeses so I can use the photos for avertisment for future work. I have gotten many referels this way

[robertwgross]

For what it's worth...

One year ago, some friends of mine announced that they were going to get married in September of 2004, and they were shopping around for wedding photography, so they asked me first.

I shoot weddings (digitally) mostly in a partnership with a film shooter, so I referred the deal to him. There was a schedule conflict, so we declined. My friends shopped around and found some friend to shoot film, and he was supposedly very experienced, yada yada...

Additionally, the B&G hired a two-person video team, and they invited some friends to do additional still photography, mostly digitally. When September rolled around, the ceremony happened, and all of these diverse photography people were tripping over each other, so to speak. The main film shooter was standing in most of the wide video shots, etc. Most of the friends just stood back and took pot shots.

Anyway, the main film shooter took his pro film to the pro lab, and then proofs came out. Everything was about three stops overexposed! So, that was all shoved back to the lab to fix. The lab could not fix it. So, there is virtually nothing usable from the main film shooter. The friends who shot digitally got a few good ones from a distance, but the main film shooter was standing in lots of shots.

Needless to say, the B&G were not very happy about it all, and I am kind of glad that I didn't get involved with the whole mess. I just viewed the damage on DVD.

---Bob Gross---

[dsze]

Lol....nice to hear that I'm not the only one with wedding issues... not that I wish these trials on you guys! :)

Anyway, I shot this bride's mother's wedding this past weekend. This problem bride and her husband were there and in the wedding party of course and I'm pleased to report that things went very well on that front. I even took a risk and asked the husband to make a battery run for me to the other room (prior to wedding) and grab my spare AA's from my bag.... He quickly jumped on it and I thanked him heavily and I knew everything would be ok :wink:

Now, my issue is: The ceremony was indoors with DIMMED lighting at 5:30pm, and ofcourse I couldn't use flash. So, I had to shoot at 1/60, no tripod and ISO1600.....So, I've got some ceremony noise to work through now! Any additional advice appreciated! :)

-daniel

[dsze]

.....good point. I understand that there wasn't anything, as the photographer, that I could have done better in that situation, but it is still my job to process the images as best as possible as I would with any other image.

...I will try to stop obsessing over them though! :)

thanks,
daniel

[nemesis099]

My family has always had bad prints when they have had a friend do it so I was always told hire someone that is just for photos so if they are bad you can yell at the photographer without loosing a friend. I take my camera to my family events and I just put the pics on Ofoto for everyone to purchase. Its free to put pics up there and I don't have family stealing my pictures (a big problem when I shot film) when the kids or grankids are in them.

I was the only photographer for the rehersal dinner at my cousins weddign and my Aunt offered to pay me but I refused. I sent CDs with the JPEGS from my camera to the couple and my Aunt. I feel that this also strengthens my bond between us since if anything happens my family would be there for me.

[dsze]

bloo, I'll try to get one of the file posted if you want to take a crack at it. I'm very frustrated with them. The rest of the photos, where I could use flash, turned out very nice, but these ceremony shots are killing me.

-daniel

[dsze]

PM's you a link Bloo.

-daniel

[trustwoody]

So I was a carpenter for many years and before that a minister. Many of my contacts initially were church contacts for business. When I would get the "I know you will give me a good deal because you are a christian" I would often respond by explaining that I assume that they are christian when they say that to me and if they understood anything about christianity they would be offering me more money because they want to see me succeed as a christian business man. The very suggestion that I should discount my prices makes me know they misunderstand the basic premiss of what they are trying to say. Cut it down to its real message and they are saying that I want a better deal than you are offering and Iam willing to pull this trump card to get it. Not all family members and not all christians are this way (thankfully). It is a basic difference that one way benefits you and one way benefits them financially. I suppose that when they pull out the emotional tools to get you to give them what they want you are left with the choice that you either live the next who know how many years with this family tension or take it in the shorts. Really they are being more selfish by demanding your free services than you are by charging them for your services. In the end I guess the policy of free work for family does solve that problem. But it is too bad that those head games have to played. My two cents.

Trustwoody