A650 vs. A720 vs. SD870

[kcp1377]

So I've narrowed it down to these cameras... I want something to throw in my bag to take when we go camping or traveling on short trips. (I had been using my XTi or 5D and my 24-70 as a walkaround kit, which I don't need to tell you is huge!) So whatever I get will be tiny compared to that.

I like features on each of these, but I'm not sure which one would be best. Last night I was leaning toward the A720 because it's cheap and seems to have good IQ (plus manual), but it doesn't have AV or TV like the 650 does(both of which I use a decent amount). And neither of those 2 go as wide as the 870 or are as tiny, which would be nice. But the 870 doesn't give me manual controls - or a viewfinder.

Ideally I'd love something that went wide, was the size of the Elph series, shot RAW, had decent IQ, no shutter lag (or AF lag) and manual controls. LOL! I don't think I'll find anything like that! I'm leaning toward the 870 because I don't think I'll miss manual and it's tiny, so I can throw it in my pocket.

But I'd love to hear anyone's real life experience with any of these! The 870 and A650 are the same price...

[binliner]

I've got an A640 and it's a great little camera... only thing lacking was IS and the zoom could've been a bit longer and as both have been improved in the A650 I'd go for that.

[kcp1377]

How do you find the shutter & AF lag on the 640? Is it quick? I'm tempted to order the 870 and the 650 and send the one I don't want back... I'm sure I'd be happy with either of them!

[audiobomber]

Last night I was leaning toward the A720 because it's cheap and seems to have good IQ (plus manual), but it doesn't have AV or TV like the 650 does(both of which I use a decent amount).

You have been given bad info. The 720 has the same manual controls as the 650; P, Av, Tv, M modes and a lot more. It would be a mistake for someone like you who has experience with a DSLR to give up full manual settings. You will miss them. No viewfinder is no-go for me. I use the OVF regularly for zoom shots or on sunny days.

Re 650 vs 720:

- 650 has superior LCD resolution and flip screen
- 650 has faster flash recycle times
- 720 is more compact, lighter (i.e. more portable)
- Image Quality is equivalent
- RAW is available for either camera via CHDK

[kcp1377]

Thanks audiobomber! I was just reading a review on the 720 that said it did have AV & TV. The reviews on dpreview said it didnt have it. So for the extra $130, you get faster flash, more mp (12 vs. 8) and a better LCD. I'm thinking it's not worth it. I don't even know if I'll end up using this much - and my husband will use it when I'm not and he doesn't care.

That's great that you can get RAW on it. I'll have to check out the CHDK! Thanks!

[audiobomber]

Thanks audiobomber! I was just reading a review on the 720 that said it did have AV & TV. The reviews on dpreview said it didnt have it. So for the extra $130, you get faster flash, more mp (12 vs. 8) and a better LCD. I'm thinking it's not worth it. I don't even know if I'll end up using this much - and my husband will use it when I'm not and he doesn't care.

That's great that you can get RAW on it. I'll have to check out the CHDK! Thanks!

Makes sense to me. You already have a DSLR, now you need something small. The A720 fits in my shirt or pants pocket (barely). The 650 is small compared to SLR but would definitely have to go on a belt pack or in a purse. Regarding pixels, they're only an improvement if they result in better IQ. Unfortunately there's no payoff here.

BTW, the A series Canons don't have WA but "Wide" mode can be a useful substitute for landscapes and group shots.

[traildad]

I was considering the A650. After reading reviews I decided that the A720 was a better camera for less money. I don't see the need for 12mp. The flash is faster but not better. If you want to know about image quality and a lot of other things, here are in depth reviews of both cameras with sample images. After carefully reading the entire review for both cameras I decided to go with the A720.

720IS
http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Canon-PowerShot-A720-IS-Digital-Camera-Review-15944.htm

650IS
http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Canon-PowerShot-A650-IS-Digital-Camera-Review-16394.htm

[Hland]

I just got the A720 tuesday I LOVE this camera its exactly what i wanted in a p&s. I couldn't be happier with my choice i made i getting it.

[kcp1377]

So how big is this camera? I went all over yesterday determined to try one in person and no one has one (was told many times that it was discontinued, but then every person looked it up and realized it wasn't, but couldn't say why they didn't have it.) I did look at the SD1000 and it looks like a nice, tiny option too. I just can't decide if I need the IS, or if the faster flash recycle time would be nice. And the size is quite a bit different width wise. I wish I could get both and try them each. The SD series doesn't offer any manual controls, but if I want manual I'll use my DSLR. I just want something that I can use in auto and will fit in my tiny bag (or my pocket). The 720IS does look great - the flash recycle time just worries me and I personally don't like the fact that it runs on AA. Just personal preference. And the SD1000 got a lot of awards and is really small, so I know I'd bring it with me everywhere. But I'd also be giving some tele zoom up, which is always nice to have.

I think I'm leaning toward the 720IS still, but someone please tell me the flash recycle isn't going to drive me batty (I live in NY and it's still too cold to go outside so I'll be using flash for a little while yet). And that redoing the date every time I change batteries won't be a problem. I know for $170 you're not going to get a perfect camera, but I don't know if it would be better to spend a bit more and not have those issues.

[A650ISowner]

I have the A650IS.. The flash recycle time is quite fast for a P&S(4AA's also mean great battery life), though the flash isn't super powerful. This is true of the 720's flash also, though. I'd go with the 650 myself if I were you. It is large and a bit heavy for a P&S, yea, BUT you'd be amazed how handy 12mp can be.. you can crop photos, and still have a nice, detailed photo, something just not possible without the extra 4mp..

For a 12mp, the image quality is quite nice, also. At higher ISO, ANY P&S will have some noise, and from what I see, the 650 is no worse than its 8mp sisters. I tried the a720, the sx100, and the a650. The a650 was a no-brainer for me. It does everything the other 2 didn't. That flipscreen is also VERY nice to have.. you'd be surprised how handy it is for many shooting situations.

Team the a650IS with CHDK(Allbest's builds- build 37 at the moment), and you have a very versatile camera that will compete with any DSLR, not to mention blow most away with detail because of the resolution.

The IS feature works VERY well also. You can literally swing the camera up and snap a shot, and still have a crisp picture, even in most low-light situations.

There are many other pluses over the 720, too bad I am not much of a writer, as you can probably tell. For the extra $100 or so, you can't go wrong with the A650IS, trust me. There is NO way I could be happy with the 720 now that I have the 650. as far as the SD series goes.. less features+inconvenient lithium battery equals no way for me.. I'd rather put up with a larger camera than lose the capabilities I have now.

[fwampler]

Thanks audiobomber! I was just reading a review on the 720 that said it did have AV & TV. The reviews on dpreview said it didnt have it. So for the extra $130, you get faster flash, more mp (12 vs. 8) and a better LCD. I'm thinking it's not worth it. I don't even know if I'll end up using this much - and my husband will use it when I'm not and he doesn't care.

That's great that you can get RAW on it. I'll have to check out the CHDK! Thanks!
I sent in a note to DPreview about their error about the Av,Tv on the A720IS. This has been 3/4 weeks ago. Apparently they didn't care enough to fix it.

[HaroldC3]

I did a side-by-side comparison of the 650 and 720 and noticed a couple things.

the 650 has a larger sensor (I would hope so for the extra 4 MP!)

The resolution of the lcd of the 650 is 50% better than the 720. When the lcd is the main way of framing your shots, this is huge! Good luck using the view finder on either of these.

The 650 takes 4 AAs and you can take 500 shots on one charge while the 720 takes 2 AAs and you can get 400 shots. Can you imagine how much lower that will be if you use the flash? Anyone have any idea why the 720 can get so many shots out of 2 AAs?

Also, the 720 does not have a dedicated ISO button. This may be handy for some people to have.

Anyways, I just ordered the A650 myself. I think I'll like it alot.

[kcp1377]

I kept looking at the 650, but I don't want to go that big or heavy. I know it's not much, but then where do you stop? I really kept going back to the SD series. I do so much work as a photographer that I really want something to take the pictures for me. And I don't know how much I'll use it. I still keep coming back to the SD1100 or SD870, but I'm worried that I'll want the extra reach of the 720 (which in the end was one of the things that swayed me.) I don't want the extra mp and these are simply snapshots. If I really have something important I'll take one of my DSLRs. I do think the 650 is a nice camera - just more than I need or want.

I really wish there was a place I could check out side by side, but there's not. I went shopping yesterday and went to a few places and they only had 1 or 2 canon P&S - that's it. I was quite disappointed!

[frazzm737]

When I travel, I carry my camera on a strap around my neck and secured in a vest pocket. I found my A630 to be a little large and too heavy. I recently purchased the A720 . It is just the right size and weight to carry this way. The A650 is larger and heavier than the A630. I will miss the swivel LCD, but all the other features I need for travel are there on the A720.

[kcp1377]

I'm glad to hear that, Frazzm. How is the flash recycle time for you? I'm hoping not to need it too much - and for that I guess I can live with it! 4.3 seconds just seems like an eternity!

[traildad]

I did a side-by-side comparison of the 650 and 720 and noticed a couple things.

the 650 has a larger sensor (I would hope so for the extra 4 MP!)


I checked the specs for both cameras at two different places. The CCD for the 650 is 1/1.7 inch and for the 720 1/2.5 inch. It sounds like the 650 has a smaller CCD with more mega pixels. That would add up to more image noise which is what the reviews show.
650
http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Canon-PowerShot-A650-IS-Digital-Camera-Review-16394/Specs--Ratings.htm
720
http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Canon-PowerShot-A720-IS-Digital-Camera-Review-15944/Specs--Ratings.htm

[traildad]

I'm glad to hear that, Frazzm. How is the flash recycle time for you? I'm hoping not to need it too much - and for that I guess I can live with it! 4.3 seconds just seems like an eternity!
Here are a couple of snippets from the review

A720
The flash takes a reported 10 seconds to recharge, but we found it recharges about every 5 seconds. That’s better than reported, but still pretty slow.

Even with the limited flash illumination for long distances and slow recharge time, the Canon PowerShot A720 IS offers a host of impressive flash controls. Overall, the Canon A720 IS’s wealth of flash options sets the standard for entry-level point-and-shoots.

A650
The Canon A650 IS’s flash is poorly placed and its limited power makes it almost useless. Among its competition, the A650 IS has one of the weakest flashes.

[HaroldC3]

I checked the specs for both cameras at two different places. The CCD for the 650 is 1/1.7 inch and for the 720 1/2.5 inch. It sounds like the 650 has a smaller CCD with more mega pixels. That would add up to more image noise which is what the reviews show.
650
http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Canon-PowerShot-A650-IS-Digital-Camera-Review-16394/Specs--Ratings.htm
720
http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Canon-PowerShot-A720-IS-Digital-Camera-Review-15944/Specs--Ratings.htm

Sorry I think you are misinformed about the 1/1.7 being smaller than 1/2.5 sensor. Please see the following page:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/SensorSizes.png/428px-SensorSizes.png

[audiobomber]

I checked the specs for both cameras at two different places. The CCD for the 650 is 1/1.7 inch and for the 720 1/2.5 inch. It sounds like the 650 has a smaller CCD with more mega pixels. That would add up to more image noise which is what the reviews show

1/1.7 and 1/2.5 are fractions. The 650 has a larger sensor. They have similar pixel densities, but both probably have too many pixels for the sensor size.

[audiobomber]

Also, the 720 does not have a dedicated ISO button. This may be handy for some people to have.

The 720 allows easy access to ISO by punching the "function" button once, but it can also be programmed to bring up ISO on the "print' button.

[audiobomber]

It is large and a bit heavy for a P&S, yea, BUT you'd be amazed how handy 12mp can be.. you can crop photos, and still have a nice, detailed photo, something just not possible without the extra 4mp.

Are you speaking from experience? Have you cropped an A-series 8mp camera and done the comparison? I've seen 100% crops of the G9 (same 12mp sensor as 650) vs the 720, and they are very very close. The G9 shows a little more contrast, but it's usually criticized for having a bit too much contrast. Have a look for yourself: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=26674068
The full-sized originals are here. http://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM

It does everything the other 2 didn't. That flipscreen is also VERY nice to have.. you'd be surprised how handy it is for many shooting situations.

What does it do that the 720 doesn't do (other than the flip screen and the faster flash recycle)?

There are many other pluses over the 720, too bad I am not much of a writer, as you can probably tell.

Your writing seems fine, I'm not too sure about your facts though. There are good reasons to choose the 650 over the 720, (better LCD and the faster flash recycle times). There are also reasons to choose the 720 (more portable, better price). I don't see any reason to speculate about mysterious "pluses". If they're real, let's hear 'em.

[briansocal]

The 720 allows easy access to ISO by punching the "function" button once, but it can also be programmed to bring up ISO on the "print' button.

Would you mind sharing how to program the ISO to print button? I don't remember seeing that in the manual and it would be quite handy.
Thx, B>

[traildad]

1/1.7 and 1/2.5 are fractions. The 650 has a larger sensor. They have similar pixel densities, but both probably have too many pixels for the sensor size.
I stand corrected. Seems like an odd way to list the size. I sure wish they would work on better image quality instead of simply more pixels.:rolleyes: Even though the sensors have similar pixel densities the tests in the reviews show slightly better results for image noise on the A720.

[HaroldC3]

I stand corrected. Seems like an odd way to list the size. I sure wish they would work on better image quality instead of simply more pixels.:rolleyes: Even though the sensors have similar pixel densities the tests in the reviews show slightly better results for image noise on the A720.

I agree with you there. I never get why they label sensor sizes that way

With the 650 you do have the option of selecting 8MP if you think 12MP is too much, so I think that may be an option for some people.

There's always a trade-off. All you can really do is be happy with whatever you choose.

[audiobomber]

Would you mind sharing how to program the ISO to print button? I don't remember seeing that in the manual and it would be quite handy.
Thx, B>

It's on page 114 in the manual. You can configure the "Print/Share" button to access ISO from a list of available functions:

1. Press Menu button
2. Scroll down to "Set print/share"
3. Scroll across to ISO
4. Press Func Set
5. Press Menu

[audiobomber]

With the 650 you do have the option of selecting 8MP if you think 12MP is too much, so I think that may be an option for some people.

Be aware that selecting a lower resolution adds more compression, degrading the IQ slightly. In other words the camera takes the photo at full resolution and then some of the resolution is thrown away in creating the smaller jpeg.

[audiobomber]

650
http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Canon-PowerShot-A650-IS-Digital-Camera-Review-16394/Specs--Ratings.htm
720
http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Canon-PowerShot-A720-IS-Digital-Camera-Review-15944/Specs--Ratings.htm

That's another website with an incorrect spec. They show the 650 and the 720 as not accepting lenses, but they show the S3 IS as "conversion lens compatible". The A650 and the A720 both accept an adaptor and conversion lenses. I tried to find some way to contact the site to get this fixed, but there's no email address.

[briansocal]

It's on page 114 in the manual. You can configure the "Print/Share" button to access ISO from a list of available functions:

1. Press Menu button
2. Scroll down to "Set print/share"
3. Scroll across to ISO
4. Press Func Set
5. Press Menu

Did it :-)
Thats great, thank you. B.

[frazzm737]

I am very happy with the A720 as a lightweight, smaller camera to be easily carried when traveling. The flash recycle time does not seem too bad for me--I don't use the flash that often.

[traildad]

That's another website with an incorrect spec. They show the 650 and the 720 as not accepting lenses, but they show the S3 IS as "conversion lens compatible". The A650 and the A720 both accept an adaptor and conversion lenses. I tried to find some way to contact the site to get this fixed, but there's no email address.
I am not sure I understand. This is off of the connectivity/extras page from one of the links.
Other Features (7.0)
Stitch Assist mode – This mode is accessed by the mode dial. It can stitch up to 26 images into a large panoramic composite using the included PhotoStitch software.

Converter lenses – Canon sells a 0.8x wide ($199) and 2.0x tele converter ($149) for the A650 IS.

External flash – The A650 IS is compatible with a $130 slave flash that Canon claims doubles its flash range.

[traildad]

I am not sure I understand. This is off of the connectivity/extras page from one of the links.
Other Features (7.0)
Converter lenses – Canon sells a 0.8x wide ($199) and 2.0x tele converter ($149) for the A650 IS.

Also on the intro page it says the following

To the lower right of the lens is a small round button. Pressing this button releases the bayonet mount for the lens bezel. With an additional twist and pull, the bezel can be removed, to be replaced by an adapter barrel for auxiliary lenses or filters, such as the $149 2.0x tele converter and the $1990.8x wide converter.However I did notice on the spec page it says.
Lens Mount no
Compatible Lenses n/aI am guessing that they mean that you can't remove the lens like you can on an slr. Because there is no mount for the lens and it can't be removed there are also no compatible lenses. In other parts of the review they clearly mention auxiliary lenses so this must be a problem with terminology.

[audiobomber]

I am not sure I understand.

Click on the link for the A720. It says:
___________________________________
Lens
6x optical zoom (9 elements in 7 groups, 1 dual-sided aspherical)
Lens Mount
no
Compatible Lenses
n/a
____________________________________

The S3 IS on the other hand says:

Lens
12x optical zoom
Lens Mount
conversion lens compatible
____________________________________

They should read the same. Both cameras are conversion lens compatible.